Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/God of War (video game)/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

God of War (video game)[edit]

God of War (video game) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): JDC808 ♫ 23:37, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article with permission from Graham Colm as given here. In the last nomination (also check the Talk page as some comments were moved there), the article received 3 supports and 1 oppose. The opposition was based on prose of the article (as that reviewer is not a "gamer" and some language she did not understand). In her last comment, she said the article was close. I'm hoping that the work that has been done since that comment has appeased her last comment (the nomination was closed before she could respond and she hasn't responded to a request to post on the article's Talk page). JDC808 ♫ 23:37, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brief comments[edit]

  • Support with one observation. The lede contains the sentence "As of June 2012, the game has sold more than 4.6 million copies worldwide." I assume this is physical copies? If so the date part is unlikely to change given the PS2 is no longer made, so it seems like you are making extra work for yourself by adding a dated statement that needs to be maintained for something that may never change. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 00:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support! It is true that the PS2 copy will never be made again. The date is because that's when Sony released the most up-to-date data for its sales (and the other games in the series). --JDC808 ♫ 00:59, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Per the previous FAC. — ΛΧΣ21 01:19, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again. --JDC808 ♫ 07:00, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK (problem image replaced and fair-use improved)Fair-use rationale of second image needs some work, but not unsolvable (infobox ok).

File:GOW_Gameplay_Kratos_vs_Hydra.jpg - has "To show an example of the game in play." as purpose. WP:NFCC #8 requires an image to "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.". A mere example image without additional context does not significantly increase readers' understanding. Some suggestions to improve the situation:

  • If the graphics are especially noteworthy (new graphic engine, special graphic style, ...?), note that in the rationale and caption.
  • Use another image instead with more specific features (f.e. the article discusses the QTE feature, which could use some visual help to grasp the concept. Or maybe the Rage function, if you can get a good shot of it.). The current image basically just shows the hero and a monster, the reader doesn't need the image to understand that.
  • Flesh out the caption a bit and point out specific, interesting details of the image.

The videogame template's proposed rationales are too generic and probably only meant as first pointers. WP:NFCC clearly asks for specific, detailed rationales, so you need to adapt and expand them for your current usage. GermanJoe (talk) 09:01, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I replaced the image with one that was being used on the series page and fleshed out the caption. --JDC808 ♫ 21:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The new image is a better choice for fair-use. Tweaked the rationale (you need a second, separate one for each article) and caption a bit more. All OK. GermanJoe (talk) 11:39, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support pending the image rationale fixes requested by GermanJoe. I copy edited a few bits just now, and my comments in the previous FAC resolved a few source issues in the development section. I also checked sources in the release and awards sections in that FAC, for a total of 16 sources checked. I just checked the three sources in the soundtrack section, and those all looked fine as well. —Torchiest talkedits 17:38, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again. --JDC808 ♫ 21:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Per previous FAC rationale.--Tærkast (Discuss) 21:50, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - in accordance with the previous FAC rationale. Looks good to me. Hounder4 (Talk) 09:27, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to both. --JDC808 ♫ 18:19, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SandyGeorgia[edit]

We still have the acronym issue I mentioned in the last FAC:

  • So, presumably SCE is Sony Computer Entertainment, but that is never stated. Then we have SCEI in an infobox. And we have SCEA. So why don't we define SCE? How about the first sentence as something like this?
  • That would make it clear that all of the "SCE"s in the article refer to Sony Computer Entertainment.
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 21:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is in the second para of the lead. Without reading the article, I can't tell who the "who is responsible" refers to. Is Ares responsible for Kratos murdering his family? Without reading the article, that confuses. After reading the article, I understand, but many people will read only the lead. The sentence needs more clarity.

  • Kratos is tasked by the goddess Athena with killing Ares, the God of War, who is responsible for Kratos' accidental murder of his family.
I'm a bit stumped on this one because I don't know how it's not clear, since "who is responsible" falls right after "Ares, the God of War." Would it help if "the God of War" came before "Ares"? --JDC808 ♫ 21:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Torchiest just did a copy/edit to the sentence. It now reads "The goddess Athena tasks Kratos with killing Ares, the eponymous God of War, who is responsible for Kratos' accidental murder of his family." --JDC808 ♫ 21:55, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That helps ... it's just confusing because someone made someone else accidentally kill his family ... not intuitive. Anyway, that's better I guess. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:59, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to oppose this time because these video game articles are just too frustrating; I wish an independent, non-gamer would routinely copyedit them, but I don't have time to go through them line-by-line. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:00, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Neil916[edit]

Oppose on prose and comprehensiveness issues. The article is obviously and naturally written by editors who are intimately familiar with the game. As someone who has never seen the game, however, I as the reader seeking information about the subject am left with many more questions than answers from the article, in particular with the description of the game's plot and interface. The article could be organized better and expanded further. A smattering of examples follows, this list is not comprehensive and it is my opinion that the article needs more work than can be accomplished within the timeframe of a FAC. Neil916 (Talk) 08:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lead
    • Consider the lead to be a bird's eye view of the subject matter, such as if I click on a wikilink to this article just to find out what the heck God of War (video game) is. I'll glance at the lead section to get an overview, and click back once I know. Or, I'll get sucked into the article and abandon the first one. Whatever. But the lead section should be very concise and should convey the most relevant information in as short a time as possible. The first paragraph contains information about other games in the series including a prequel in development, before telling the reader anything about the game itself.
Okay, switched around. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first paragraph presents as a wall of blue text, with terms like "gameplay", "game controller", "special powers" and "puzzles" wikilinked. It is overlinked in my opinion.
Delinked some. They were linked so that a non-gamer would understand what those terms meant, or what they were referring to. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The word "eponymous" was used twice in the first two paragraphs of the article. I didn't know what it meant, so I had to look it up. The definition I got was "giving one's name to a tribe, place, etc.: Romulus, the eponymous founder of Rome.". I don't understand the use of the word to describe Ares as the eponymous God of War. Perhaps the fancy words could be abandoned in favor of phrases that are easier for the reader to understand (and for the writers to use in the correct context?)
The definition of how it's used is "of, relating to, or being the person or thing for whom or which something is named : of, relating to, or being an eponym."
  • Ares was responsible for Kratos' accidental murder of his family? What does that mean? Back to the dictionary. Murder is "the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another person." How does one accidentally murder someone?
This is explained in the Plot section. The main character, Kratos, attacked a village and Ares secretly transported his family to its temple. Kratos went on a rampage and blindly killed all in the temple and when the carnage was over, he realized he had killed his family. Ares purposely put them there for that to happen. Kratos did not intend to murder them, that why it says accidental. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Torchiest has replaced "murder" with "killing" (..."who is responsible for Kratos' accidental killing of his family.") --JDC808 ♫ 21:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As Ares ravages Athens,..." If that fact is important enough to mention in the lead, you should also give a hint of why Ares is ravaging Athens. The only other hint about this in the rest of the article is a brief mention when describing the various battlefields of the game.
Clarified.
  • "Chronologically, God of War is the third chapter in the series, which focuses on vengeance as its central theme.". This is out of place in the second paragraph of the lead, the rest of the paragraph has nothing to do with the chronology of the series.
Moved.
It was moved, but then replaced with two sentences about the series and the chronology series, and I don't see how they belong in a paragraph where the first three sentences are about gameplay. The information is important, and I don't think it belongs in the first or third paragraph, either, See my comments below under the second read-through. Neil916 (Talk) 09:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
They were put together to avoid two small paragraphs. Addressed further in later comments. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The third paragraph of the lead is actually quite good and paints a picture of why the game is relevant in the gaming community.
  • Gameplay
  • Before even telling the reader what the game is about, the article launches into a detailed description of the weapons, and treasures that can be found in the game. I think some background is needed before diving into such detail. Probably reorganize so the "synopsis" section is above this one.
This organization is a very common layout for most video game articles (I've only seen maybe one or two that haven't used this) and this is the organization that's been laid out by the WP:VG project. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Torchiest has rearranged the sections. --JDC808 ♫ 21:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think it reads much better now. Neil916 (Talk) 09:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The player guides Kratos through different environments composing of a series of missions to achieve specific goals". Clunky reading. What kind of mission doesn't have a goal? Composing of a series of missions?
Reword and added enemies to accommodate a later issue. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Kratos' main weapons are the Blades of Chaos: a pair of blades attached to chains wrapped around Kratos' wrists that can be swung around to attack enemies, similar to a kusarigama." I think "weapons" should be singular, since you refer to is as A pair of blades. In any event, it reads poorly.
Do you have a suggestion of how to reword it so that it does not read poorly? --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I know this sentence has been tweaked a couple of times, but it now reads, "Kratos's main weapon is the Blades of Chaos: a pair of blades attached to chains that are wrapped around Kratos's wrists and can be swung around to attack enemies." The "and can be swung around" throws me. How about just breaking it into two, like "Kratos's main weapon is the Blades of Chaos: a pair of blades attached to chains that are wrapped around Kratos's wrists. The blades can be swung around to attack enemies." or something similar? Neil916 (Talk) 11:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed with your suggestion. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The facts though are incorrect, or at the least they are misleading. The chains are not "wrapped around his wrists" they are permanently seared into his forearms. I suggest changing to "Kratos's main weapon is The Blades of Chaos: a pair of blades attached to chains that are seared into the flesh of his forearms. The blades can be swung around to attack enemies." (Having difficulty finding non-wikia sources, but this fact is mentioned in the game itself. I hope this source may suffice: http://www.swordsofmight.com/god-of-war-blades-of-chaos-replica.aspx)
They are still technically wrapped around his wrists. The plot section states that they were bonded to him by Ares. Plus, "wrapped around his wrists" is probably much easier to visualize than "seared into the flesh of his forearms." If it helps, "wrists" could be changed to "forearms." --JDC808 ♫ 21:02, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first paragraph of this article continues describing various weapons without attaching much significance to them. Why would I, as the player, want to throw lightning bolts, or breathe underwater? What's a rage meter and how does it get full? Oh, I'll find out later in the article about the rage meter, but not really if the rage meter has any function aside from that one spell.
Did some work. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Noted. Some cleanup/copyediting still needs to be done. I'll help with that later. Neil916 (Talk) 09:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Kratos can learn to use up to four magical abilities, such as Zeus' Fury that allows him to throw lightning bolts, giving him a variety of ways to attack and kill enemies." I kind of assumed that throwing lightning bolts was so the player could attack enemies, but why would I want to throw a lighting bolt instead of just whacking the monster with my Blades of Chaos? Do they have better range? Stronger hits? Greater chances of a knockout? Better/gorier graphics and sound effects? Faster attacks? That's what I was looking for. Same with the Blade of Artemis. It's a different weapon, but does it have some advantages in certain situations over the Blades of Chaos? Are both weapons armed at the same time? I'm kind of curious how Kratos is able to wield a sword when he has chains welded to his wrists, but I don't think that matters in the article. Neil916 (Talk) 11:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Added "for better range" with the lightning bolt and put the Artemis blade is separate and gave an example. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's magic used for in the game? I see if I find a blue orb, I can replenish it, but why would I want to?
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Additionally, the player can find Gorgon Eyes and Phoenix Feathers in plain, neutrally colored chests" as opposed to what color chests? Does the color of a chest show what color orb is in it? If so, describe in more detail.
The orb containing chests. Yes. Done. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Eyes and Feathers incrementally increases the health and magic meters, respectively," do you mean increasing the maximum value of the health and magic values, or replenish them? I think the first, but I can't tell.
The second half of that sentence (unquoted here) answered this, but have clarified. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Combat includes a quick time event (QTE) feature, also called context sensitive attacks, that is initiated when the player has weakened a strong foe." What foes? The article to this point forgot to mention who the player is fighing, other than a mention of Ares dying at the end. And a Cyclops.
Fixed as noted above.
  • "Similar in function to the QTE feature, the game includes a quick time sex mini-game in the form of an encounter with female twins, which has become a regular feature throughout the series." This seems odd to mention in a paragraph that appears to be about combat. Is this sex game a prominent part of the plot of the game? An easter egg?
It starts out describing a feature of the combat, which is the QTE feature. The sex mini-game is played exactly the same way as the QTE feature, except there is no damage caused to the character if you fail. In comparison of being a prominent part of the plot, this would fall more to being an easter egg, but it's not a hidden feature, it's a blatantly obvious feature that has become a regular feature in this series, as stated. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The player may unlock bonus costumes, behind-the-scenes videos, and art galleries as rewards." What are bonus costumes and art galleries and why would a character engaged in combat in Ancient Greece want to own an art gallery?
Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Setting
  • "With the exception of flashbacks, the game's events are set between Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta." What does this mean?
It means exactly what it says. Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta are two other games in the series. The game this article is about is set between them. I'll clarify that it's set between the games. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The section makes a list of six battle settings, then proceeds to go into further detail about each of them in a different order than it was first introduced. In what order do these various settings appear during gameplay? It is important that three sirens roam the Desert of the Lost Souls? Does the player have to kill them and is that hard to do? Same with Cronos. Friend or foe?
The gameplay order starts in the second paragraph. The first paragraph is saying that there are four main locations and the other two aren't as prominent. Fixed sirens. All Cronos does is crawl with the temple on his back.
First paragraph now also shows gameplay order. --JDC808 ♫ 05:13, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Characters
  • What is a supporting role? They appear in cinematic sequences? They help the player fight? They fight against the player? The article identifies the characters without making it clear what role they play in the game.
Fixed.
  • Plot
  • Many of my questions about context are revealed in this section, more than halfway through the article. I think it should come much earlier in the article.
  • More nitpicks about wording and prose in this section, but it's not nearly as confusing and disjointed as the earlier sections.

... and more. I could go on but I'm out of energy. Overall, I think this article still needs some considerable reorganization, and rewriting, possibly by an editor familiar with gaming, but not with this game in particular. Neil916 (Talk) 08:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what the grounds for opposition on comprehensiveness are, as far as I can see it contains all the available information about the game. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:32, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please re-read my comments, I pointed out several instances of information that was missing and/or unclear. Neil916 (Talk) 09:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Second read-through, this revision

  • Lead
  • "Highly regarded for its gameplay, God of War focuses on combo-based combat and quick time events that require the successful completion of game controller actions in timed sequences." Lose the "Highly regarded for its gameplay" part, since the article adequately addressed that point in the third paragraph of the lead and it reads awkwardly. When the article says that the quick time events that require the successful completion game controller actions, I think it means that a successful completion of a particular QTE requires a successful execution of a timed sequence, but it might also mean that certain QTE sequences are required to be completed successfully in order to complete the game. That should be clearer to the reader.
Removed "Highly regarded for its gameplay." I believe I've cleared up the QTE part. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "God of War is the first installment in the series of the same name, for which it is the third chronologically, and includes four sequels and a prequel as of 2012. A second prequel is in development." I still have some problems with these two sentences. First, I think they're far off topic in a paragraph where the other three sentences discuss elements of the game's gameplay. Second, I don't quite get the wording. It is the first installment, but the third chronologically, there are four sequels and a prequel as of 2012. Until the second prequel that is in development is actually released, I think that makes this the second cronologically. The information is important enough to include in the lead, but it's misplaced and confusingly worded as it is. I'd consider a fourth paragraph in the lead about the game's placement in the series.
Although I disagree with some points on confusion, I've expanded on the gameplay, made it a separate paragraph, and I expanded the series part as its own paragraph. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Setting
  • "Three sirens roam the desert; their defeat guides warriors through the desert so that they may summon the Titan Cronos and access Pandora's Temple chained to his back." It explains better than before, but is worded badly and wasn't clear enough for me to fix it myself. Is the article trying to say that the defeat of the sirens doesn't kill them, but causes them to guide the player through the desert in order to summon Cronos?
Further clarified. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It needs a little more work. It now reads, "killing them releases their soul, which guides warriors through the desert". Do three sirens have one soul? Is it the soul/ghost of the last siren who acts as a guide across the desert? Neil916 (Talk) 10:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Added s to soul. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've made other copyedits to this section directly to the article itself.
  • Are the locations listed in the order that the player will encounter each location?
I answered this above with your first comment regarding the locations, but yes, they are in order that player's will encounter them. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I didn't notice that before. Neil916 (Talk) 10:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Characters
  • Each of the gods and goddesses have their titles capitalized. For example, Athena is listed as the "Goddess of Wisdom", but the Athena article doesn't use that capitalization. I think that each of their titles should be preceeded by "the" as is done with Ares. Athena should be "Athena, the goddess of wisdom", not "Athena, Goddess of Wisdom". I don't think either way is technically correct, it just reads smoother.
It's capitalized because it's their title. I don't fully get why the main articles for the gods don't do it that way, which I find silly. I have gone through and added "the" to each. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I still think that's wrong, perhaps someone else can voice an opinion. Neil916 (Talk) 10:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...the body burner (Christopher Corey Smith), who allows Kratos to enter Pandora's Temple..." The article has a list of characters with the names of the characters and the name of the voice actor, then all of a sudden it interjects details about the last two characters.
Because they weren't mentioned in the Plot. Have removed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gameplay
  • "The player guides Kratos through various environments while fighting enemies, such as Gorgons, who come mostly from Greek mythology" According to the Gorgon article, the Gorgons are totally from Greek mythology, I don't understand the "mostly" part.
Mostly as in, not all of the enemies come from Greek mythology. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article mentions that the game features platforming elements both in the lead and the gameplay section, but other than a mention that there are platforming elements, it doesn't tell me what they are or what their significance is.
Expanded on platforming. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article mentions that there are puzzles. Provide at least one typical example of a puzzle.
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you did, because I had visualized something completely different. Neil916 (Talk) 10:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

...and more. I've stopped reviewing while in the Gameplay section, I'm out of time this evening, I'll revisit in the next few days. Neil916 (Talk) 09:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Development
  • "Game Director David Jaffe confirmed the game would be a cinematic presentation, and said, "we are doing extensive focus tests, and using data compiled from E3, to find and fix the problem areas" of the cameras." I don't get this. What problems were there with the cameras? Were complaints received from trials at E3? Clarify what he's talking about because up to this point there was nothing mentioned about camera/POV problems.
I'll have to recheck the source. I rechecked the source and put all the information that the source has in regards to the cameras. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first two sentences of the second paragraph appear to have little to do with the last four paragraphs of that same paragraph. Hard returns are cheap, consider splitting into their own paragraphs, perhaps with an expansion of what the camera problems were.
Will work on. Also, generally I've noticed with VG articles, if there's not enough information on a particular subject, paragraphs are combined in a way like this. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I split into separate paragraphs. --JDC808 ♫ 20:45, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The team designed two systems of combat: a "macro" system, which gives players the choice between normal combat, magical attacks, and/or using mini games to kill a foe" Whoa, some major information appears to be left out of the gameplay section here. Using minigames to kill a foe? What is that about?
The QTE feature. Clarified. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jaffe said the 1981 film Raiders of the Lost Ark inspired the development of God of War" This contradicts the statement that the game was inspired by Clash of the Titans. He didn't have to be inspired by only one or the other, but it left me scratching my head when I read it because I'd just read that he was inspired by Clash of the Titans.
It had said "Raiders also inspired", but someone removed it. "Also" added back. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but did not want to put the player in the role of an adventurer, referencing The Legend of Zelda." What does that mean?
Zelda puts players in the role of an adventurer, Jaffe did not want to do that with this game. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but the game "is not innovative or unique, and that's intentional." That quote appears to directly contradict his quote in the third paragraph, "Jaffe said the game would be unique because each puzzle is different".
Yeah, Jaffe is a weird guy. But it does elaborate after that. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Our system was so shallow that it forced the team to constantly create new content to trapeze the player from one area of interest to the next ... I understand modular game design, and the value of that, but I was feeling that if we didn't step outside those boundaries, at least for me, I was going to get bored." This makes little sense to me what he's saying. I understand it's a direct quote, but it's so confusing that it would probably be better for the article to paraphrase what he was trying to say in a much more coherent manner rather than a direct quote.
Will work on. I direct quoted because I didn't think I could paraphrase it well, and I felt this had more meaning. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Worked on. --JDC808 ♫ 20:45, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Release
  • "The game was released on March 22[26] in North America," move citation to after the comma
Will fix. Fixed --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By the end of July, the game was the sixth-best-selling game of 2005" At that point? Or by the end of July the game had already sold enough to cement its place by the end of the year as the sixth-best-selling game of 2005? No, that doesn't make sense. How did it stand at the end of 2005?
Clarified. I've tried finding sources of its sales at that time. This was the only source I could find. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The figure of 4.6 million copies being sold is mentioned in the first paragraph. Does that figure include the 2.4 million copies of the collection, or is it 4.6 million stand-alone copies in addition to 2.4 million copies as part of a collection?
4.6 million is God of War only. I thought it was clear since the first paragraph doesn't mention the collection at all. The collection is a separate release so its sales aren't going to be included in that. That's why the second paragraph says the collection sold 2.4 million. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

...done for now. Neil916 (Talk) 11:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source spot-check by FutureTrillionaire[edit]

Book referencing

There appears to be multiple citations from the "God of War (Instruction manual)" and the book by Stover and Vardeman. The pattern used in the article appears to be that the first citation is stated in the form "SCE Santa Monica Studio, ed. (2005). God of War (Instruction manual). Sony Computer Entertainment. pp. 16-17." while the following are in the form " SCE Santa Monica Studio, ed. (2005), pp. 18–19". I'm not sure if this is the proper way to cite books. I think short citations should be used here.--Futuretrillionaire (talk) 00:07, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. I will look into this. How it's currently being done is the way I had learned (and was acceptable in my last FAC that was promoted). You may be correct. --JDC808 ♫ 03:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On this point, Futuretrillionaire, are you saying all the references, including the first one, should be short, with a separate full citation that is not individually referenced, but is pointed to by all the short ones? Check the way the manual is referenced in God of War: Chains of Olympus, which is the same as here, versus Starflight, which I think has what you want? —Torchiest talkedits 05:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think the Starflight model is better. I'd like to see in addition to the "references" section a "bibliography" section, where we put the full citation of books without the page numbers. The references section would be where the short citations for the books will be. Again, I'm not sure if the current book citation format is wrong, it just doesn't look good in my opinion.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Will work on. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 21:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Citations

The characters section is supported by 2 sources, both placed at the end of the paragraph. all of the voice actors mentioned in the section are listed in the allgame source except Paul Eiding. Am I correct so assume that he is listed in the manual source? Also the entire plot section lacks citation. At the very least, a citation should be added at the end of each paragraph, even if all the citations come from one source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:56, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Eiding is listed at allgame, they typoed his name as Oaul Eiding, same with Carole Ruggier, should be "ier" not "ler". And yes, he is listed in the manual. As to Plot, it's generally accepted that they're uncited, at least for video game articles (maybe film too). I can try to locate a source. --JDC808 ♫ 00:11, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting, I think you're right. I checked several other featured VG articles, and some of them do not have citations, and some of the ones that do use primary sources (the game itself). Considering this, I suppose citing sources in that section is not necessary.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. I think the main reason is that unless you cite the game itself, you'd have to use a strategy and unless you own it, you'd have to find one online that can't be edited freely. I think Mahalo is one of the few that can only be edited by site administrators. --JDC808 ♫ 00:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, according to Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources#Video games, when citing the VG itself, we need to "provide transcripts wherever possible, and enable readers to check the facts themselves by noting which area, level or episode is cited." This seems to imply that we need to add citations for parts relying on primary sources. Also, I think this is helpful, reliable source for the plot summary:[2].(Note: the section links don't appear to be working, but you still access pages with the arrows and manipulating the url)--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:49, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Added. --JDC808 ♫ 21:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In the "Release" section, the "June 21 in Europe" is not mentioned in the source. Also, isn't the UK in Europe. This should be clarified, especially for non-gamers. Also, in the "Development" section, shouldn't "macro system" and "micro system" have quotation marks around them? They are terms invented by the developers.--FutureTrillionaire (talk)

Yes, the UK is in Europe, but in the gaming world (at least), it sometimes has a different release from the rest of Europe. I thought we had a source for Europe's release. Removed until then. You may be right on the terms. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be more problems in the "Release section". The date "November 17, 2009" is not mentioned in the source. Also, there's no source for "It was released in Japan on March 18, 2010". The citation placed later in the sentence only refers to Australia.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 22:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One minor issue I'd like to add is that in the awards section, the source calls the award "Best Action Game", not "Action Game of the Year". --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 22:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The soundtrack section contains 2 sources, neither of which mentions "Winnie Waldron" nor "Marcello De Francisci". The sources also don't mention "Sony Computer Entertainment".--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, one last thing. In the film section, I couldn't find the quote "huge-name director" in any of the web sources cited in that paragraph. That leaves only the documentary source. If the quote did come from the doc source, then a citation of the doc should be placed at the end of that sentence containing the quote. If not, either that part needs to be removed, or a source needs to be found for it.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:09, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking that the "huge-name director" came from a source that was broken by the time I started working on the page. I've removed the information and put another source. --JDC808 ♫ 04:18, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support nomination - I've done an extensive source spot-check on the web sources used in the article, and all the issues I found have been resolved. I believe this article is ready to become an FA.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 04:25, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! --JDC808 ♫ 04:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Wikipedian Penguin[edit]

Leaning to oppose: Prose needs some more work, but you're getting there. I can't quibble on too much since I do not scrutinize video game articles too often (I just read them for fun and curiosity). From the lead:

  • You need commas after month-day-year dates, such as in here: "The game was first released on March 22, 2005 for the PlayStation 2 (PS2) console."
Fixed. Seems odd to put that slight pause with that example sentence, but if it's the correct way then okay. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, it's correct styling. It's used for [city], [country/state] phrases too. But not date-month-year dates. Thanks for the fix. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 12:29, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is the first time I'd seen this rule as well, but WP:DATE states, "When a date in mdy format appears in the middle of text, include a comma after the year (The weather on September 11, 2001, was clear and warm)." What an odd rule. Neil916 (Talk) 10:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It is loosely based on Greek mythology, and is set in Ancient Greece with vengeance as its central theme." – that's more of a motif than a theme.
Okay, I think the developers had said it was the theme at some point, but changed theme to motif. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The player controls the protagonist Kratos, a Spartan warrior in the service of the Olympian Gods." – "in the service of" → "who serves"?
Changed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The goddess Athena tasks Kratos with killing Ares, the God of War for which the game is named and who is responsible for Kratos' accidental killing of his family." – why is "for which the game is named" necessary? It's obvious (and should be "after whom").
There was a shorter phrase being used, but it had caused confusion so it was replaced with that, which I just removed it. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Torchiest has left a response below, expanding on this. --JDC808 ♫ 05:08, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fused participle: "... God of War focuses on combo-based combat and quick time events requiring the successful completion of timed sequences of game controller actions." – ambiguous what the subject of "requiring" is: God of War or quick time events. If the latter, write "quick time events that require". Same number of syllables, just more grammatically correct. Furthermore, the repetition of "of" is a little unpleasant.
Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Avoid additive adverb transitions such as "additionally" that do not add anything (that's four "ad" sounds!).
Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Additionally, the player can use magical attacks and special powers for alternative combat options." – Should be "as alternative combat options", not "for".
Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Couldn't saying either "magical attacks" or "special powers" be enough? Are magical attacks not special powers?
Not exactly, there's four magical attacks and a special power (which inreases attack power and makes the character invincible for a short period). Reworded. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redundancies, like "an array of" here: "Players also solve an array of puzzles and the game features platforming elements." Also avoid vague adjectives of quanity, such as "multiple": "Multiple reviewers have said God of War is one of the best action-adventure games on the PlayStation 2." (Multiple is anything from 2 to, well, a lot.)
I'm not sure what you mean by the redundancy for "an array of". I'm not sure what to replace "multiple" with. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Remove "an array of" and "multiple". The meaning is still the same. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 12:29, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The use of "over a dozen" does not sound very encyclopedic here: "...and it has won over a dozen "Game of the Year" awards." Just go with a simple "several".
Changed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unclear: "In addition to its gameplay, God of War has been highly regarded for its graphics, sound, production, presentation, and story." – what do you mean by regarded for its production? Can something be praised for its development stage? In popular music, the word refers to the beat and instrumentation, but not sure about video games. And I'm wondering about the usefulness of this sentence; doesn't that cover pretty much every aspect of a video game? So it was widely regarded for all aspects?
One of the reviewers made a list of everything he thought was excellent and production was on that list. Removed production. To answer the last question, pretty much. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • For a quick sample of what's below the lead: "With the exception of flashbacks, the game's events are set between the games, Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta." – second comma just chops the sentence up; there's no pause there, so remove.
Removed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stopped there. Consider another once-over, as there seems to be some odd sentences here and there that need rephrasing. But in general, not bad at all. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 04:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have to reply to this item: '"The goddess Athena tasks Kratos with killing Ares, the God of War for which the game is named and who is responsible for Kratos' accidental killing of his family." – why is "for which the game is named" necessary? It's obvious (and should be "after whom").'
That sentence has been changed a few times now. The version before the current one said, "The goddess Athena tasks Kratos with killing Ares, the eponymous God of War, who is responsible for Kratos' accidental killing of his family." An editor did not like the word eponymous, finding it too obscure, so the longer phrase was added to explicate the definition. Before that, the sentence said, "Kratos is tasked by the goddess Athena with killing Ares, the God of War, who is responsible for Kratos' accidental murder of his family." An editor did not like the sentence structure, finding the apposition confused how many people were being referred to in the sentence. That was corrected with an active voice and the addition of eponymous to make it clear that "Ares" and "the God of War" are the same person. So I would submit that things that some readers find obvious need more explanation for other editors. I'm certain many readers would not recognize the name Ares. —Torchiest talkedits 05:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I think with the current wording it is clear who Ares is, but I guess we can use dashes or parentheses to make it even clearer. Yes, I think eponymous is a bit odd, but it is also clear that God of War is named after the God of War without having to mention that. I can see why the sentence would cause so much concern, but it seems good now (but like I said, there're always dashes or parentheses if you want). —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ]
All points have been addresses so far. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still not quite confident I can withdraw my oppose.

  • For example, this is six locations: "There are five locations explored in the game: the Aegean Sea, the ancient city of Athens, the Desert of Lost Souls, the Temple of Pandora, the Underworld, and a brief scene on Mount Olympus."
It had said five main locations, then a brief scene in the last. Neil916, copyedited and changed it to this. Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This could be tightened: "The Aegean Sea setting includes a mass of shipwrecked vessels; undead soldiers, harpies, and the Hydra are attacking what remains of the [remaining] living soldiers."
Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Repetition of "sirens": " Three sirens roam the desert; killing the sirens releases their soul, which guides warriors through the desert so that they may summon the Titan Cronos and gain access to Pandora's Temple." – don't see why one can't be converted to "them".
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This seems like plot, not setting: "Zeus chained the temple to Cronos' back as punishment for his role in the Great War."
Yeah, it just seemed unnecessary to put in the Plot and better served here. If you think it would be better served in the Plot, I will move it accordingly. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps the subsection name could renamed "Background", because it isn't just setting. There're some events that happen before the story that don't fall under setting (time/place/situation).
I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to. Are you saying rename "Setting" to "Background"? There are events that happen before the story, but they are all scene through cutscenes. Everything in "Setting" is what the player actually explores during gameplay. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I was confused because of the Zeus chaining detail, which seemed out of place. It would fit better into the plot section. By setting, we're only talking about the backdrop and environment. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 23:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, moved Zeus part to Plot. --JDC808 ♫ 23:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redundancies remain: "The massive temple, constructed by the architect Pathos Verdes III, is full of deadly traps and a variety of enemies"; "Other characters that appear include a host of Greek gods"
Variety was to imply that there are lots of different enemies, but have fixed both. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The presence of these concerns tell me that there is a little bit of work needed to be done throughout before this can be promoted to FA status. I'm in the midst of doing a thorough peer review that I've been committed to for about a month now and don't have time to go through this entire article. When some more copy editing has been done in the article, let me know and I'll be glad to revisit. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 20:33, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see some improvements have been made. They do not seem enough unfortunately. Understanding that the article has already gone through independent copy editing, I'll try to tweak the prose around a bit myself, and you can see if my edits appear OK. There are quite a few glitches (pun not intended) dispersed, and they need to be fixed before the prose can be considered "brilliant". Best, —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 23:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thanks. --JDC808 ♫ 23:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've messed around a bit with the lead and have tried to remove redundancies and improve sentence structure. The lead does need to be trimmed. The article is close, but not quite 30 KB in prose length. So three paragraphs should only be necessary, per WP:LEAD. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 23:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It was three paragraphs, but Neil916 had some issues with what-was-where which made me break it into four paragraphs. The second and third paragraphs didn't contain as much information and were together as one paragraph, before it was split. --JDC808 ♫ 23:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Valid point! I'm fine with this. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 00:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Eyes and Feathers incrementally increases the length of the health and magic meters, respectively, and the player must find a total of eighteen Eyes or Feathers to maximize the length of each meter, thus maximizing the player's power."—is "The Eyes and Featers" one item? I ask this because you say "increases". To someone not familiar with the topic, this comes off as awkward grammar. It should be clarified that they are one item somehow, if they are, that is. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 22:22, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
They are two items. The Eyes increase the health meter, Feather the magic. "Respectively" was put there to try and indicate that. --JDC808 ♫ 23:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Increases" is now "increase". --JDC808 ♫ 23:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That sentence is a bit wordy. I know it's been worked over a few times, but maybe it could just say: "The Eyes and Feathers increase the size of the health and magic meters, respectively; finding eighteen of an item maximizes a meter and thus, the player's power." —Torchiest talkedits 23:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Seems reasonable to me. Maybe just swap "size" with "length." --JDC808 ♫ 23:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm OK with this suggestion. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 12:09, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 17:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the development section, we have "the developer" and "The developers", which has left me confused.
Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The game was released on March 22[26] in North America, July 8 in the United Kingdom, and November 17 in Japan."—that's odd citation placement. Is it because the IGN link does not say anything about North America?
The first IGN link (ref 26) only has March 22, the rest are in the other IGN link (ref 27). --JDC808 ♫ 23:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the 2006 Interactive Achievement Awards, the game won several awards, including 'Overall Game of the Year', 'Console Game of the Year', 'Outstanding Achievement for Animation', 'Outstanding Achievement for Original Music Composition', 'Outstanding Achievement for Sound Design', 'Outstanding Character Performance for a Male' (TC Carson as Kratos), and 'Action/Adventure Game of the Year'."—"including" implies that these are just some of the many awards it won at the show, but considering the length of list, that doesn't seem to be true. Is this list exhaustive? If so, get to the point (i.e. "...the game won 'Overall Game of the Year'..."). —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 23:02, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Will trim. Trimmed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They said they were hired to rework Self's screenplay, but since it was written before Clash of the Titans (2010), Wrath of the Titans, 300, and Immortals, which they said had borrowed ideas from the God of War stories, they considered Self's script outdated, and they want to differentiate God of War from other films of the same genre. Dunstan said the first step is to humanize Kratos."—"They...they...they...they" seems repetitive. Also, towards the end, there's some awkward tense; it may be correct, but it doesn't sound nice.
Okay, two of the "they"s have been removed. Can you elaborate on the tense issue? --JDC808 ♫ 03:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The sudden change of tense starting from "they want to differentiate" is awkward. "They wanted" sounds better, IMO. And for the last one, future tense sounds more suitable. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 12:09, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to 'wanted". As per "the last one", keep the rest as is? --JDC808 ♫ 17:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. --JDC808 ♫ 18:08, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "To date, the film is without a director and has a budget of $150 million."—what currency? US? —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 01:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
US. Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 03:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have struck through my oppose and would like to read through the article once more before supporting. Thanks, —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:24, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Second look:

  • "God of War is a third person action-adventure video game published by Sony Computer Entertainment (SCE) and developed by SCE Santa Monica Studio."—I'd preferably write by whom it was developed before by whom it was published. Chronologically makes more sense and the developer is usually more important.
I agree. The reason it's written that way is because SandyGeorgia had suggested it because of the "SCE" acronym. I've switched it back and just removed "SCE" from in front of Santa Monica Studio. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The game features quick time events that require the player to complete various game controller actions in a timed sequence to defeat stronger enemies and boss fights."—"to defeat ... boss fights"? Please correct.
Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Players also solve puzzles and the game features platforming elements."—awkward. Suggest something like "The game also features puzzles and platforming elements."
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "To date, the series includes four sequels, God of War II (2007), God of War: Betrayal (2007), God of War III (2010), and God of War: Ghost of Sparta (2010), and a prequel, God of War: Chains of Olympus (2008)."—I don't think the list of sequels is necessary.
Okay. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Since removing the list of sequels shrunk the paragraph and made it a bit small IMO for the lead, I've incorporated the "first installment" and "second chronologically" into the first paragraph. --JDC808 ♫ 22:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A second prequel is in development, God of War: Ascension, which will be a prequel to the entire series, and will be released in March 2013."—tighten to "God of War: Ascension will be released as a prequel to the entire series in March 2013."
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As per above, this is no longer there. --JDC808 ♫ 22:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As of June 2012, the game had sold more than 4.6 million copies worldwide."—"has sold" probably.
Someone had switched it to "had". Changed to has. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
June 2012 was in the past so we use the past tense. --John (talk) 06:32, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With the exception of flashbacks, the game's events are set between the games Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta."—remove "the game's". Less repetitive.
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
More to come once these have been resolved. I add any FACs I review to my watchlist, BTW. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While a group of harpies take the Box to Ares, Kratos falls into the Underworld."—subject–verb agreement error?
Um, not sure. I thought it was correct? --JDC808 ♫ 21:35, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe just remove "a group of"? —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:44, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 21:47, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I've seen "the group" used with plural and singular conjugations, but I support the tweak to be safe. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:54, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, and you're welcome. --JDC808 ♫ 22:01, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just a suggestion, but enlarging the screenshot in the Gameplay section would be good, IMO. Probably with he "upright=1.x" option. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:20, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I'll see what I can do. --JDC808 ♫ 21:35, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Enlarged some. What do you think? --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The size is right. I've done it a bit differently per WP:IMGSIZE, see what you think. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 23:09, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. --JDC808 ♫ 23:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... and art galleries from the game's development as rewards."—unclear.
Did some rewording, but wasn't exactly sure what was unclear. --JDC808 ♫ 00:20, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Puzzles were implemented, including self-contained ones that span one to three rooms of the game, and global puzzles that spread across four or five areas."—unclear what is meant by "span".
Couldn't think of another word because I thought "span" was clear. I put "incorporate". I don't know if that's clearer. --JDC808 ♫ 00:20, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jaffe said the game would be unique because each puzzle is different, and that while each puzzle in the Prince of Persia series was a slight variation of the last, 'each puzzle in God of War is its own beast.'"—what is the relevance to Prince of Persia? —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 23:26, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A comparison essentially. --JDC808 ♫ 00:20, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's too out-of-place. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 11:30, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Before I do any alterations, would it help if I removed ""the game would be unique because each puzzle is different, and"? It would make the sentence, "Jaffe said that while each puzzle in the Prince of Persia series is a slight variation of the last, "each puzzle in God of War is its own beast."" Could even remove the quoted bit and just say they're different. --JDC808 ♫ 16:43, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Removing the redundancy would certainly improve the sentence, and you can keep the quote. But there's still the problem of the reference to Prince of Persia coming out of nowhere. Maybe, try to put the series into context. For example, was Prince of Persia a popular series at the time? Why would the interviewer even raise the topic of PoP? Perhaps that can give you ideas. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 17:38, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Did some work. --JDC808 ♫ 18:30, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has repetition of "game", and there's a tense inconsistency here—"By the end of July, the game was the sixth-best-selling game of 2005 up to that point,[29] and by June 2012, it had sold more than 4.6 million copies worldwide."
Removed first "game". Wasn't sure where the tense issue was. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The first clause has simple past, but the second has past perfect, even though both have "by [month]". Maybe change the latter to "as of June 2012". —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 11:49, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to "as of June 2012" --JDC808 ♫ 16:57, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prose in the Release section is a bit repetitive; there's too much of "was released".
Swapped a couple for different words/phrases. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The God of War Collection was released as a digital download on the PlayStation Store on November 2, 2010; it was the first product containing PlayStation 2 software available via download."—you could remove the semicolon and just say "...2010, as the first product...".
Done, but instead of "2010, as the first", made it "2010, and was the first" --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The game has been highly regarded for its gameplay, graphics, sound, production, presentation, and story."—that's pretty much everything. Saying "in all aspects" would raise WP:OR and WP:POV concerns, so just removing this sentence is the way to go.
Okay, that list was from a review who said all of those were great, and other reviews said multiple areas in that list were great. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the first paragraph of "Critical reception", I counted eight instances of "game", "gameplay" or "GameRankings". This is a bit excessive for a paragraph this small.
Now there's 4 with 2 being direct quoted. A 3rd is also in a quote but not direct quoted. Can't change GameRankings. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is ungainly as well—"Raymond Padilla of GameSpy said the gameplay is excellent and that the game has".
Can't help the publisher titles. Removed the third instance of "game". --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, using words such as "excellent" and "great" without quotation marks raises the question of tone.
I believe I had originally quoted them, but a copy-editor removed the quotes since it was one word. Put quotes. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Most likely in fear of scare quotes. This I think is a acceptable exception. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 11:49, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lane said the game's story is..."—here's a nice opportunity to remove "the game".
In addition to that, I've went through and removed "game", where I felt it wasn't needed. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sell complimented the graphics, stating that they are "quite possibly the best on the PS2" and rival games on the Xbox."—wordy. "Sell complimented [stated that] the graphics, stating that they are "quite possibly the best on the PS2" and rival games on the Xbox."
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
More to come. I don't want to think that I withdrew my "leaning to oppose" prematurely but there are issues here that worry me about the prose quality, such as repetition, tone and redundancy. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 02:09, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised copy-editors didn't see at least some of these issues. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In an interview for Play (UK) magazine..."—the parenthetical notation here is awkward. Perhaps somethinglike "In an interview for the British Play magazine...". Or just remove this phrase altogether.
Removed parenthetical part. --JDC808 ♫ 04:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He said giving the readers a solid plot foundation was necessary and the novel required extra material so it did not simply follow the action of the game."—awkward. Add a "that" after "so".
Added. --JDC808 ♫ 04:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Artemis is convinced for the fact that Ares' minions are destroying the wilderness and its wildlife."—this is just confusing. What is trying to be said?
I believe I cleared this up. --JDC808 ♫ 04:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I may have fixed this. --JDC808 ♫ 04:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regretful note: I'm not sure what to say. This is my third pass through the article, and it still does not have the brilliant and professional prose it should. It's not far, but the language still does not flow well. There's a bit of clumsy and ungainly wording, some odd flow, and some grammatical inconsistencies. The prose also does not seem naturally written to me. These are altogether making me reluctant to support this nomination. Yes, prose reviewing can a subjective process, but it's hard to approve of a FAC you can't read without finding odd bumps along the way. My final piece of advice is for you to try to find a copy editor who is unfamiliar with the article and its topic, and kindly get them to run an eye over the prose. But with that said, it has been a pleasure reviewing this article. I've learned a lot about this fine game's history (haven't played it a lot, though) and appreciate your cooperation JDC808. I'm not sure how this FAC will turn out (you have plenty of support it seems, but a couple of opposes) but wish you good luck for the best. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 20:54, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A bit disappointing, but thanks for all of the comments to help improve the article. The tricky part is actually finding said copy-editor. --JDC808 ♫ 04:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A copy-editor unfamiliar with this article and topic just finished going through the article and fixed what he saw, and said it looked excellent. I believe another copy-editor who is also unfamiliar with this is going to have a look as well. --JDC808 ♫ 23:40, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Will surely take a look once the second copy editor has reviewed the article. Thanks, —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 23:56, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from John[edit]

Oppose on prose based on a preliminary sample. --John (talk) 10:17, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Any suggestions to help improve the prose? I'm assuming you're referring to Neil916's comments. Work has been done to improve the prose he had issues with (also waiting on responses from him here, although he did post on my Talk saying it has improved). I'm assuming here, but did you actually read the article or just read what Neil916 said? If it was the latter, please read the article, improvements have been made. Citing examples would be more helpful too. --JDC808 ♫ 19:14, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't oppose without having read, as I said just above, a preliminary sample of the article. I will provide a longer and more detailed rationale when I have time. --John (talk) 19:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, sorry for assuming, it just sounded that way. For future reference, just saying "based on a preliminary sample" is not helpful as we don't know what that preliminary sample is. --JDC808 ♫ 19:32, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Setting
    • "...which guides warriors through the desert so that they may summon the Titan Cronos and gain access to Pandora's Temple chained to his back." Is the temple chained to Cronos's back? Or are the warriors to be chained there? What's going on here? Rewrite to avoid ambiguity.
Not sure how you got confused with that and not sure how someone would assume warriors are to be chained there. Clarified. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "cerberi"? It's a Greek word, not a Latin one, so I am unsure why this would be the plural. I would prefer "cerberuses" or "three-headed dogs"
Cerberuses sounds wrong, but okay. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Cerebrus is a proper noun; it is the given name of an individual creature/character in Greek mythology. I think Cerebruses is like saying there are multiple Athenas in the room. I suggest that three-headed dogs would be better. Neil916 (Talk) 10:24, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
True, but as the developers said, they gave themselves lots of freedom to modify the myths, and as such, cerberus is the name they used for the three-headed dogs (similarly, there is only one Minotaur in the mythology, but there are lots in this game). --JDC808 ♫ 20:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Characters
    • "a host of Greek gods"; why "a host"?
As per the first definition here. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Plot
    • "...Kratos called to the God of War..." Prayed to? Called on? his doesn't look right to me.
Changed to "called on". --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "...transported Kratos' wife and child...", "...Kratos battles his way to Athens' oracle...", "...for Cronos' role...", "Despite Ares' best efforts..." What's happening with these possessives? Is this hypercorrection? It looks fussy and odd to me. --John (talk) 19:33, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • On the possessives, can you clarify your concern? Those should all be correct usages. It's just an unfortunate coincidence that so many characters have names ending in S. —Torchiest talkedits 19:43, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • "Athens'" definitely looks wrong; see for example this style guide. For me they should all take 's apart from Ares. In a way it doesn't make all that much difference, but to me having so many (what look like) hypercorrections in a short passage looks awful. --John (talk) 20:10, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All with the exception of Ares are now 's. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The possessives issue also threw me the first time I saw it; it's not the way I learned to write possessives. But the MOS rule #2 under "For the possessive of singular nouns ending with just one s", an allowable use is "Add just an apostrophe", as long as it is consistent throughout the article, so I didn't bring it up. With JDC808's recent edit, it's not consistent any more, so I'd cast my vote to go back to the way it was or propose a change to the MOS. Neil916 (Talk) 10:19, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now I'm confused on what to do. --JDC808 ♫ 20:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changing the MoS won't change how ugly this looks. How do the sources treat this issue? --John (talk) 06:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I know the sources use Kratos', not Kratos's. I'd have to recheck on the others. --JDC808 ♫ 17:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Did some checking, couldn't find the others in the sources (and if they were, they were singular form), so I checked the Wikipedia pages and Cronos is Cronos' (albeit the technical spelling is Cronus, but the developers changed it for this series). --JDC808 ♫ 20:32, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gameplay
    • "..a pair of blades attached to chains that are wrapped around Kratos' wrists and can be swung around to attack enemies, similar to a kusarigama." Who says it's similar to a kusarigama? This needs a ref.
It's been removed. It wasn't said by anyone that could be sourced. It was an attempt to try and make readers understand how they are used. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "...a large sword that offers alternative combat options." This looks clumsy; can a sword really offer something?
A previous reviewer had issues and wanted me to clarify why the character would gain another weapon or magic. To answer the question, in a video game, yes. If it's used in a completely different manner than the other weapon(s), then yes, it's offering alternative combat options. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "...chests colored either green, blue, or red,..." Either normally relates to two items.
Removed. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "—allowing new and more powerful attacks—" New and more powerful? Or just one?
Upgrading allows new attacks that are more powerful. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the "and", because it seemed to indicate there were both new attacks and upgrades for existing attacks, rather than just new attacks that are more powerful. —Torchiest talkedits 22:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "...kill all cyclops..." The plural is cyclopes --John (talk) 20:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the plural is biclops. Ba-dum-tish. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 23:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Development
    • "He said he has the confidence that the team will fix the problems before the game's release." Tense again.
Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 17:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "He made point that..." What does that mean?
Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 17:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update: based on my looks so far, I still think the article fails on Criterion 1a: "its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard", because its prose isn't brilliant or close to a professional standard. On the contrary I keep finding basic errors of grammar and clunky wording. It would take a complete copyedit to bring this one around. --John (talk) 06:41, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have to disagree. With the number of copyedits this article has already received and everything fixed up to this point, the article does not need a complete copyedit, and I doubt it's far off from being "brilliant, and of a professional standard," but this is your opinion. --JDC808 ♫ 17:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with JDC808 here. Can you point to any specific examples of clunky wording, and/or provide an example of a way to make the prose you take issue with 'brilliant and of a professional standard?'Domcarlo (talk) 04:19, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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