Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Guy Fawkes/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 11:24, 22 May 2010 [1].

Guy Fawkes[edit]

Guy Fawkes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Malleus Fatuorum, Parrot of Doom 20:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Guy Fawkes was just one of 13 conspirators involved in the plot to kill James I, but he has since become synonymous with the scheme. There must be very few people in Great Britain who do not know the name of the man whose effigy is ritually burnt each 5 November. We've tried to separate the man from the plot as best we can, hopefully readers will find this article of interest. Parrot of Doom 20:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 20:11, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Guido is a dab link in the military career section. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 13:45, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the link. Malleus Fatuorum 14:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, my concerns have been adequately addressed. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:32, 19 May 2010 (UTC)Comments - quite an interesting article. I have a number of nitpicks to be checked and fixed:[reply]
  • Lead suggests cause of death was a broken neck, whereas the infobox says hanging. Did he jump off the scaffold before being hanged, or was his neck broken by the hanging?
  • I'm not keen on the phrasing of the first paragraph under "Childhood" - it seems a bit more awkward than the rest of the article
  • Pick either "8" or "eight" for Fawkes's age when his father died
  • Something seems off with the source for the conspirators image
  • "Duck and Drake inn" or "Duck and Drake Inn"?
  • You've got a few of the conspirators wikilinked multiple times, which is probably unnecessary
  • "fashionable Strand district" - what do you mean by "fashionable"?
  • Yes, but fashionable in what sense? Did people want to live there or build businesses there? Was it upper-class, or for those aspiring to the upper class? (maybe it's a regional expression, because I'm not familiar with it...)
  • The simplest answer is that "fashionable" is the word that the source uses, and it doesn't expand upon it. If you read The Strand it seems apparent that the area was fashionable because it was filled with wealthy, fashionable people. A bit like Notting Hill in London, I suppose. Parrot of Doom 15:20, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there another phrasing possible to replace "positive sounds"?
  • I'm a bit confused by the timeline under "Overseas" - he traveled overseas in May 1605, and during that trip he was reported to Cecil? Or was he reported in April 1605 by Turner? Also, Turner's report seems to be about Fawkes's initial arrival in England in 1604 - if so, then it's somewhat confusing to have a reference to April with no year right after a reference to May 1605 (if not, then maybe this needs to be more clearly explained?)
  • "made a check on" -> "checked on" or "visited"?
  • "Monteagle suspicions" -> "Monteagle's suspicions"
  • "where he remained defiant" - the phrasing suggests that he was interrogated within the King's privy chamber, which seems unlikely
  • "When asked by one of the lords what he was doing in possession of so much gunpowder..." - the quoted answer suggests a question phrased slightly differently - what he intended to use it for, perhaps?
  • He obviously gave more information than just his fake identity, so consider rephrasing "He said only..." - perhaps include something like "When questioned about his identity, Fawkes said only..."?
  • Consider translating the Latin quote from King James, perhaps in a footnote?
  • Transferred to the Tower of London from where?
  • The signature has no licensing info - I assume it's PD?
  • "their spectators" -> "the spectators"?
  • What is a wattled hurdle? Is it worth explaining here?
  • Date for Herber?
  • Trafford Publishing is no longer in Canada, it was relocated to somewhere in Indiana. Also, I would question their reliability, as they're essentially a vanity press.
  • Some overlap in categories: Category:Executed Gunpowder Plotters is a subcat of Category:English rebels, Category:People executed under the Stuarts and Category:History of Roman Catholicism in England. Also, given that Fawkes escaped the drawing and quartering, shouldn't he not be in Category:People executed by hanging, drawing and quartering? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:08, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Replies
  • He jumped off the scaffold before he'd put his head in the noose, so he wasn't hanged, the fall killed him. I've changed the infobox. Eye-witness accounts are vague. The method of hanging at that time was what's known as the short drop, in which the victim climbs a ladder, his head is put in a noose, and then the ladder is taken away. Accounts seem to suggest that Fawkes jumped off the ladder after his head was in the noose, thus breaking his neck, instead of waiting for the executioner to remove the ladder, so "death by hanging" seems to be correct. But even though already dead, he was still drawn and quartered. Hopefully this is all a bit clearer now.
  • First paragraph of the Childhood section has been rewritten.
  • I picked "eight".
  • I've clarified the source of File:Gunpowder Plot conspirators.jpg.
  • Duck and Drake Inn, changed..
  • I think I've caught all of the instances where a conspirator was wikilinked in the article body more than once. It's my habit though to wikilink again in the body of the article even there's a link in the lead.
  • "fashionable Strand district" - what do you mean by "fashionable"? I don't understand the question; I mean that it was a fashionable district of London.
  • Changed "positive sounds" to "positive noises", as in "... despite positive noises from the Spanish authorities".
  • Changed "made a check on" to "checked".
  • Changed "Monteagle suspicions" to "Monteagle's suspicions".
  • "He said only..." has been changed to "He identified himself as a ..."
  • I've rewritten the "their spectators" bit to avoid giving the impression that it was the spectators who were on the purpose-built scaffold.
  • Full details now included for Herber.
  • Trafford is an on-demand publisher, not quite the same as a vanity press. However, Fiona Bergsten is a local historian who worked closely with the Waad family in the preparation of her well-referenced book. It's unlikely that anyone is more knowledgable about the events surrounding Waad's interrogation and torture of Fawkes than she is.
  • To be honest, I hardly ever look at categories, so I suppose they've been like that for some time. Anyway, I've gone through and hopefully eliminated the redundant ones.

Malleus Fatuorum 14:11, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • Regarding the continental date thing (May/April), I've attempted to clarify this point. Basically Turner had some, but not all of the information. The report was incorrect, and anyway did not arrive on Catesby's desk until late November. Its just to show that Fawkes was well known over there, and that Salisbury had spies watching everything and everyone. Parrot of Doom 19:40, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Linked hurdles. Parrot of Doom 19:43, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • " the phrasing suggests that he was interrogated within the King's privy chamber, which seems unlikely" - unlikely, but true. One sources I have says in the King's bedchamber, in front of his privy council. Parrot of Doom 19:47, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Transferred to the Tower of London from where?" - I'm not sure, the sources don't really elaborate. I think its safe to say he was hauled in front of the King, questioned, probably held somewhere in or near the King's residence, and then transferred to the Tower. It may have been the Palace of Westminster, I'll ask on James's article. Parrot of Doom 20:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Blow you beggars back to Scotland" - clarified Parrot of Doom 20:18, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The latin phrase - believe me I did think about this a few times, but in the end thought that it would be easy enough for anyone to Google it, if they desired. I can add a translation if you really want it "and so by degrees proceeding to the worst", but I think the meaning is already implied earlier in the sentence. Parrot of Doom 20:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The infobox entry "King James I & VI" is confusing, especially as the linked articles gives it as "James VI & I". Keith D (talk) 19:17, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reply
  • I've switched it to "King James VI & I", as that's what he's called in his own article. I can't really help more with the "confusion" though, as that was his title; he was King James VI of Scotland and King James I of England, simultaneously. Malleus Fatuorum 19:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support:
    • Review, using the FAC criteria
    • Prose style - it reads well enough. I'm not sure it exactly explodes with life but I'd feel bad opposing on the basis of the prose. Feels like a unified article rather than a group effort, which is what I look for.
    • Comprehensive - I could have done with more about his time in Spain, if possible.
    • Neutral - doesn't seem either supportive of Guy or of those who oversaw his demise.
    • Stable - seemed like there was a lot of reversions late April but all seems calm now.
      • That was a very different version of the article, and while I've not checked I wouldn't be surprised if it was related to V for Vendetta, an issue now solved by creating a Gunpowder Plot in popular culture article. Parrot of Doom 13:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Lead - serves the article well although perhaps some of the detail in paragraph two could be left out so we get onto the plot more quickly which is, after all, why we know the man.
    • Appropriate structure - takes a chronological approach which seems the obvious and best option for the subject.
    • Consistent citations - I have not checked this.
    • Image use policy - I have not checked this, nor am I qualified to.
    • Length - at first it struck me as rather short. However, I note we have a FA of gunpowder plot which is far longer; so taking that into account this seems OK. But as mentioned I feel I'm left curious about his overseas military exploits, so I would welcome that being fleshed out if it is at all possible.
      • I've added a physical description of the man. I don't have anything else to add about his exploits in Spain, at that point he was rather good but otherwise unremarkable mercenary. Some sources suggest it was during this time that he developed an expertise in explosives, but neither of the two books I have in front of me mention anything about this, and it may therefore be incorrect to suggest its true. Parrot of Doom 13:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • --bodnotbod (talk) 12:32, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources and references

  • Footnote 2: Information appears to lack a source.
  • Footnote 3: I wonder why it is necessary to detach the name "Ellen Harrington" into a footnote when it could easily be included in the text?
  • Footnote 4: Information appears to lack a source.

Othrewise, sources look OK, no other issues. Brianboulton (talk) 13:26, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think that all of these issues have been dealt with now. Malleus Fatuorum 15:37, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support; after reading it straight through it looks good to me... even if you do prefer those silly ndashes! =). --Spangineerws (háblame) 17:11, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for your fixes. Those spaced mdashes would have got us crucified here though. :-) Malleus Fatuorum 17:43, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, I see now that you'd have to get rid of the spaces (glad that battle has finally been won). But then you'd have a solution that's in the MoS too, and not as a mere "stylistic alternative" =). --Spangineerws (háblame) 04:31, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


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