Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Harry R. Truman/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 11:42, 20 January 2018 [1].

Harry R. Truman[edit]

Nominator(s): ceranthor 16:25, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A fascinating folk hero, Harry R. Truman was quite the badass. After cleaning up the prose, expanding this a bit, and fixing the citations, I think this article meets the FA criteria. It also recently received helpful feedback from FrB.TG, Carcharoth, and ArturSik. ceranthor 16:25, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the support, FrB.TG. ceranthor 16:47, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Wehwalt[edit]

Support Been looking forward to this one. Just a couple of things. Been looking forward to this one.

  • "despite a nationwide constitutional ban on the production, importation, transportation, and sale of alcoholic beverages" I think if you say "despite Prohibition", it will be fine. Incidentally, the Volstead Act is what banned alcohol, the amendment simply gave Congress that authority.
  • " but he was too afraid to drink alcohol because of the earthquakes coming from St. Helens.[4]" Not sure this makes sense.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:56, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the support, Wehwalt. I think it could make a great TFA for April Fool's, spoofing President Truman. I changed the second comment's sentence to this: "but he was too afraid to drink alcohol because he was unsure whether the shaking was coming from his body or the earthquakes from St. Helens." The source quote is ""She brought him a bottle of Schenley's and he put it in the cupboard and said he didn't dare take a drink because he couldn't tell if the earthquakes were shaking or if it was him," Rosen said." What do you think? ceranthor 20:31, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose that indicates what was going on better.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:39, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Nick-D[edit]

This is an interesting article, but it would benefit from some tightening:

  • "he contracted a number of injuries due to his audacious and independent nature" - what does this mean? Did he get into accidents or similar due to taking risks? (this is basically peacock prose)
The ref says this: "Because of his risk-taking and independent attitude, he often suffered injuries, yet he refused medical attention and never stayed a night in a hospital." Not sure what else to make of that.
It seems unlikely. Injured soldiers don't get the option to refuse medical treatment. Nick-D (talk) 22:46, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So should I nix the part about never being in a hospital? ceranthor 23:12, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think so. A challenge with articles such as this is that the sources tend to be ultimately based on media reports of the recollections of an old man or those of their friends and relatives, and so need to be taken with considerable salt. Nick-D (talk) 04:51, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "though he reportedly never spent a night in a hospital" - This seems unlikely: armies tend to be pretty strict about sending injured soldiers to hospital for significant injuries, with opting out not being an option. The source appears unlikely to have checked his army personnel papers.
See above. That's why I put "reportedly."
  • "He also survived a torpedo attack on a military vessel off of Ireland" - the source says it was a "troopship" which may have been a chartered civilian ship
Another less reliable source claims that it's the RMS Lusitania. But wouldn't troopship imply a military ship?
No: huge numbers of civilian ships were chartered in both world wars but remained under civilian ownership (for instance, the luxury liners and more humble vessels). He definitely wasn't on the Lusitania if he was in the US Army given that it was sunk 2 years before the US entered the war. Nick-D (talk) 22:35, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So should I change it back to troopship, then? ceranthor 23:12, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think so Nick-D (talk) 04:51, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • When did he get married? Did he have any children?
Not mentioned in any reliable sources. The only place I could find this was the Rosen book, which some other sources seemed to question the accuracy of, hence why I didn't rely upon it primarily. I can try and get ahold of it by next week so I can search for this information.
  • "After Washington passed" - please identify the body which passed this change, not the state
I changed to "After the Washington state government"; the source says "when the state passed a ruling that changed the sales tax"
  • "A fan of the cocktail drink Schenley Whisky and Coke, Truman owned a pink 1957 Cadillac car" - is this relevant? (and when did he own the car?)
I thought it added to descriptions of his character.
  • "he was also noted for his use of profanity" - noted by whom? The "he was noted" construction which appears a few times in the article is rather imprecise and clunky: could it be changed to "he often swore" or similar?
Changed.
  • "Truman discarded all of his concerns" - these concerns haven't been previously noted: can you please describe what they were? Had he had previous bad experiences with the mountain or similar?
Changed to "Truman displayed little concern about the volcano and his situation" - think that was more what I was going for originally.
  • "he took a helicopter trip to visit them" - where did he get the helicopter from? (noting that helicopter rides are very expensive): presumably the media paid for this?
Source says "Harry’s wish met with enthusiasm at the school, and so a helicopter was arranged to take him there on Wednesday, May 14." Unsure. Will keep looking.
Aha! Found it. Fixed.
  • "He attracted media frenzy" - is this really correct? A media 'frenzy' tends to be a bigger deal, and the previous paras state he was only "a minor celebrity" and "something of a "folk hero""
The source said that media attention kept escalating. I think a frenzy is appropriate.
  • "Truman was also famous for owning 16 cats" - the source doesn't say this was a source of fame (incidentally, it also notes that he was in an evacuation zone and refused an attempt by "state officials" to persuade him to leave the day before the evacuation, which isn't in the article at present)
Thanks for that catch. Fixed to reflect the source, and added this bit to the death section.
  • Has there been any scholarly analysis of why Truman attracted so much public interest? On face value, the man was a petty criminal in his youth and reckless in his last weeks, with the seemingly admiring media coverage of his refusal to evacuate being part of the pre-eruption tendency to downplay the scale of the threat (and may have contributed to his decision to not evacuate). Is he seen as being an embodiment of the west or similar? (independent man on the land, etc).
Precisely. I can add another little bit about this.

Nick-D (talk) 22:15, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Nick-D: I've replied to a few of your comments. I will work on these suggestions and get back to you asap. ceranthor 22:30, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nick-D, I think I've replied to / fixed all of these. ceranthor 23:02, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, thanks to a related RfD discussion, I've found a more reliable source that discusses Truman's family history in more depth. I'll add some material from that tomorrow. ceranthor 04:32, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Nick-D: I've added some details about his wives and his daughter. Not much, but better than nothing. I also fixed the other two remaining suggestions. ceranthor 13:57, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support My comments are now addressed: nice work with this article. Nick-D (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments and your support. ceranthor 13:56, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Display name 99[edit]

No, it's not clarified in any of the sources I've found.
  • Any more information on what he did in World War I? A link to a battle or campaign would be nice if at all possible. Display name 99 (talk) 22:51, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not available in any of the existing reliable sources as far as I know.
  • Prohibition did last from 1920 to 1933, but it's not clear if that's the same time that Truman spent as a bootlegger. In fact, the timeline on when he opened up his lodge makes me think he probably stopped before the end of Prohibition. Display name 99 (talk) 22:51, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'll fix that. ceranthor 23:30, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I couldn't find any mention of this song in the Legacy section. If it is indeed not there, can you please add it? Display name 99 (talk) 22:51, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I can try to find it under a reliable source. Added. ceranthor 23:30, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That should be all. Good work on a fascinating character. Display name 99 (talk) 22:51, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Display name 99: I think I have addressed these comments. ceranthor 23:40, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support-Appears to meet the FA criteria. Display name 99 (talk) 01:39, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support. ceranthor 05:23, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • File:Sthelensharrytruman.jpg: Image is appropriate, but the source link is broken. I found an archived link. It says "courtesy of" which makes the licensing a little suspect; the US government often hosts copyrighted images as fair use and "courtesy of" is a frequent signal thereof. On the other hand, the photographer is apparently an USGS employee so this time it may actually be PD-USGov if we assume that the photo was taken as part of that employee's job - which given that the other photos of St. Helens's eruption are also attributed to him is likely.
  • Indeed, I see "USGS Photo courtesy of Richard Waitt."
  • Thanks.
  • Replaced with [2].
  • So could you clarify the issue with this, then?
Some images have ALT text and others don't. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:31, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Fixed/replied to your comments. Fixed the alt text as well. ceranthor 15:56, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Lack of EXIF is sometimes a sign that the image was taken from elsewhere - such as the linked Flickr stream. In this case it does probably not say much. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:55, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Let me know if there is anything left for me to resolve. ceranthor 17:19, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This article would benefit from a map showing the location of the lodge in relation to the volcano. 81.147.9.221 (talk) 23:14, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but do you know of any public domain or attributable sources that offer such a map? ceranthor 23:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
All what would be needed are precise enough coordinates, and since they are not copyrightable you could derive them from a non-free map as well. With them you can write a map on Wikipedia. JoJo Eumerus mobile (talk) 00:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'll admit I haven't the slightest idea how to do that. ceranthor 02:14, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Is there any chance you could walk me through the steps, or link me somewhere that could help me figure it out? ceranthor 01:18, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd probably add the map myself or ask someone from the commons:Commons:Graphic Lab/Map workshop to write one up; I've never been good at "walk-through" explanations. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:29, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Jo-Jo Eumerus, if you could make one, it would be greatly appreciated. Let me know if I can be any help. ceranthor 13:25, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can't do it without coordinates, sorry. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 13:53, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Jo-Jo Eumerus, unfortunately, I couldn't find them. Thanks for your help. ceranthor 15:46, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The lodge appears on various USGS topographic maps of the area (including this one from 1957), which have the approximate coordinates marked. SounderBruce 04:15, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fantastic. @Jo-Jo Eumerus: will you be able to make something out of this? ceranthor 18:27, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like cropping and uploading that map (which is PD-USGov per its own text) would do the job. Is there a source link that isn't a direct file link? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:47, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@SounderBruce: is there a separate source? ceranthor 20:15, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I found it using the TopoView tool, but citing the image directly should be fine. SounderBruce 00:05, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Jo-Jo Eumerus, see above. ceranthor 00:22, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
[[SounderBruce, is St. Helens on the map you linked? ceranthor 04:42, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Depends on the map. At 1:62500 scale, which is the most detailed for the area, the St. Helens caldera is on a separate map from the Spirit Lake area, so it would need to be stitched. Other scales (e.g. this 1:250,000 map) show both areas, but the Lodge itself isn't specifically labeled. SounderBruce 04:52, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that will be a problem (and it's nonobvious how to get to the file from https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#13/46.2293/-122.1897). Perhaps it's better to simply say "The lodge was close to the outlet of Spirit Lake" and use the file as a source. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 12:19, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. @Ian Rose: @Sarastro1: Let me know if you think there are any other changes that need to be made here. ceranthor 16:58, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To access the files, you drop a pin on the map, then choose from the maps displayed on the right hand panel. Opens in a new window as a full JPEG. There's also the ESRI/USGS explorer, from which higher-quality PDFs (in ZIP files) can be downloaded. SounderBruce 06:21, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review[edit]

  • Ref 34 lacks publisher details
  • Some of the "Sources" entries look a little incomplete. You can get more on the Gawande book from WorldCat, here, including the ISBN. You can get a little more on the Foxworthy and Hill book here, including OCLC (no ISBN apparently). There ought to be an ISBN for the Slatta book, but I can't find this volume on WorldCat, Amazon or ABE.

Otherwise, sources are in good orderand of appropriate quality/reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 16:49, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Brianboulton: Should be fixed. ceranthor 22:08, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from ArturSik[edit]

Sorry for such late response. I have thorougly read the article few days prior to its nomination and was really satisfied with its shape and content. I have now had a look at it again and can fully support it. The article is precise and in my opinion doesn't lack any information. I think it's a great source of information for anyone interested in Truman's story. Well done Ceranthor. ArturSik (talk) 18:33, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the support, ArturSik. ceranthor 19:00, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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