Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of Liverpool F.C. (1985–present)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14:04, 24 September 2016 [1].

History of Liverpool F.C. (1985–present)[edit]

Nominator(s): NapHit (talk) 13:44, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the recent history of Liverpool F.C. from 1985 to the present day. I believe the article is close to being at featured standard, and deserves the scrutiny of the community. Thanks in advance for your comments. NapHit (talk) 13:44, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - good to see another Liverpool article here, only got as far as the first section

  • Lead needs to be trimmed, it’s far too long.
  • "Dalglish became manager following the resignation of Fagan after the Heysel Stadium disaster. He started by replacing long-serving full-backs Phil Neal and Alan Kennedy with Steve Nicol and Jim Beglin," needs refs
  • The sentence which follows – “Liverpool started the 1985–86 season poorly," uses the same verb as its previous. Change to began?
  • "They continued to struggle until the end of the season when they won eleven of their last twelve matches,” not sure this is the right pronoun to use
  • "Liverpool needed to beat Chelsea in the last game of the season to win the league championship. A goal from Dalglish secured the championship,” sentence could be merged
  • You could wikilink ‘double’ for the readers’ benefit.
  • "At the start of the 1986–87 season, it was announced that Rush would leave the club for Italian team Juventus when the season was finished,” this could be more concise. Are you trying to say that Rush announced he would leave before the season was underway? Cut to the chase: "At the start of the 1986–87 season, Rush announced his intention to leave Liverpool for Italian team Juventus in time for the following season…"
  • Why did Rush announce his departure a season early? Quotes here would be useful.
  • "At the end of the season, Dalglish signed Peter Beardsley and John Barnes to improve their attacking options," needs citation and wikilink player names.
  • "The signings had the desired effect as Liverpool only lost two games in the league campaign. They did not suffer defeat until their 29th match against Everton and regained the league championship,” desired effect as they regained the league championship, losing two games is just the by-product.
  • "Despite being favourites…,” avoid noun + -ing form, use other words like 'although'
  • "Rush returned to Liverpool for the start of the 1988–89 season," citation? Why did he return?
  • I'd wiklink the 'up for grabs now' match somewhere. And you could include the fact that the match was originally scheduled to be played a month earlier but had to be replayed due to Liverpool's FA Cup commitments. Lemonade51 (talk) 23:08, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments @Lemonade51:, I think I've addressed them all bar the lead, which I'm going to rewrite in a few days! NapHit (talk) 16:45, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Some more, I'll try and have a proper look in the coming days...

  • "They remained unbeaten until a 3–0 loss to Arsenal in December, which was followed by another to Crystal Palace at the end of the month," needs ref
  • "Coach Ronnie Moran was installed as caretaker manager, he won three of the ten matches he was in charge of, as they fell further behind Arsenal," likewise, needs citation
  • "He bought Dean Saunders for £2.9 million, but the league campaign was unsuccessful for Liverpool, as they finished in sixth position, the first time they had finished outside the top two since 1981," another
  • "In the inaugural season of the Premier League, Liverpool performed poorly; they again finished in sixth place, losing fifteen of their forty-two matches," 42?
    • Yep, there were 22 teams in the first season of the Premier League. So, 42 matches were played. NapHit (talk) 12:53, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, no, I mean this could be written numerically! My fault, Lemonade51 (talk) 00:51, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Doesn't the MOS state we should write out numbers that are over 10, instead of listing them numerically? NapHit (talk) 20:24, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the further comments @Lemonade51:, they have been addressed. NapHit (talk) 12:53, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

More, got as far as 'fluctuating fortunes':

  • "Their last match of the season was against second-placed Arsenal, who were three points behind" maybe change to final, reads better
  • "The match had originally been scheduled for 23 April, but due to Liverpool's FA Cup commitments it was postponed and rearranged for 26 May," change to 'game' as match becomes repetitive. "but due to Liverpool's FA Cup commitments" → "but Liverpool's FA Cup commitments meant..."
  • "The subsequent Taylor Report," published when? Year would suffice, don't need the actual date or month.
  • "Liverpool started the 1989–90 season in good form, which included a 9–0 victory...," how about replacing BIB with 'exemplified by' or 'illustrated by'
  • "The club suffered a blip in October," endured?
  • "Following the match, Liverpool signed forward Ronny Rosenthal on loan from Standard Liège to boost their attacking options," ref?
  • When Souness returned to Liverpool as manager, he notoriously made changes to the boot room which this article doesn't go into. I think it's worth a mention, given Souness is perceived as the one responsible for Liverpool's decline. Perhaps even quotes from journalists/ex-players as to why he failed would help? Then there's the argument that Dalglish left a old squad which badly needed reinvestment. And Liverpool's owners didn't embrace the commerical side of the game, unlike United who ran away with it in the 90s. Generally you have got the season-by-season account done, but context would give it that umph.
  • "The start of the 1992–93 season saw the start of the redevelopment of Anfield," reptitive
  • "Liverpool continued to struggle during the season, culminating in a defeat to Bristol City in an FA Cup replay," ref?
  • "Despite exiting the UEFA Cup and League Cup in the early rounds, the club reached the final of the FA Cup," what does the first bit have to do with the second bit?
  • Houllier got rid of the boot room culture, worth adding.
  • "Houllier continued the reshaping into the season when he signed forward Emile Heskey for a then club record £11 million in March.[57] With the absence of European competition, Liverpool's performance in the league improved. They finished the season in fourth place...," Liverpool were clear in second in April, so not sure performances 'improved' as they dropped down two places. Improved for a short time, yes, but was no Europe really a factor? I guess the key thing to take out is they missed out on third spot, which would've gained them entry to the Champions League.
  • Surprised there's no mention of Houllier's heart attack and subsequent absence during the 2001–02 season?
  • Decision to snub Anelka for Diouf worth including?

If I have time over the weekend I'll probably do a copyedit as I can spot a lot of repetitive sentences. Lemonade51 (talk) 00:51, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the further comments @Lemonade51:, I think I've addressed them all. NapHit (talk) 20:24, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Final batch:

  • Have marked some sentences with 'cite needed' template, needs filling.
  • "Despite a loss in his first match against Manchester United in the FA Cup, Liverpool improved under Dalglish and eventually finished the season in sixth place"
  • "Dalglish bought a number of players at the start of the 2011–12 season, including Charlie Adam, Stewart Downing and Jordan Henderson," ref?
  • "The season was marred by the Luis Suárez racial abuse incident in October during a match against Manchester United, in which Suárez racially abused Patrice Evra," replace with 'the player'
  • "...and was fined £40k and banned for eight games," split this into a sentence. £40k → £40,000
  • "Dalglish was sacked at the end of the season and replaced by Brendan Rodgers," what did he do differently than Dalglish, did he make any promises to supporters?
  • "In the 2013–14 season, Liverpool challenged for their first league title since 1990.," something bugs me about this, don't they 'challenge' for the title every season? You need to be specific here, something that tells me 'Liverpool thrust themselves into title contention, after a good run of form'.
  • "In April 2014, after a run of 11 consecutive victories, they lost 2–0 at home to Chelsea," needs citation. Again, could be worded better....Chelsea's win meant the title race was out of Liverpool's control.
  • "The following match they led 3–0 after 78 minutes, but ended in a 3–3 draw to Crystal Palace, as Manchester City won the league" → something like "Having taken a 3–0 lead in their next match – away at Crystal Palace, Liverpool conceded three times in the final 20 (?) minutes to draw 3–3. The result dented their title aspirations; although Liverpool went into the final day with a mathematical chance of winning the league, they were overhauled by Manchester City."
  • Wikilink Barcelona Lemonade51 (talk) 16:13, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the further comments @Lemonade51:, I think I've addressed them all. I'm going to have a go at tackling the lead in due course!
  • Looks good, will be happy to support once the lead is dealt with. Lemonade51 (talk) 21:24, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a go at trimming the lead @Lemonade51:, let me know if you're happy or more could be taken off. NapHit (talk) 16:56, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I've had a go trimming the lead down even more. It's a bit rough in places, so feel free to make amendments. Happy to support this now, it's as comprehensive as it's going to get without going off a tangent. Lemonade51 (talk) 23:10, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support Covers everything without going into over-detailing, paragraphs all similar size, so no bias towards recent events. Things I noticed, which could be better but don't harm my vote: in the lead, I got the impression I was reading "improved" a lot. Also a lot of "disappointed". Plus, didn't Liverpool gone from top dog in 1985, to just fight for Europe? In fact, didn't they broke a record for longest without winning the league? That should be somewhere in the article. Beware of repeated links, there a lot of fanatics about that.--Threeohsix (talk) 13:38, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Threeohsix If you mean longest time for any English team, that would be Preston North End from 1890 to present. This is indeed Liverpool's own longest spell without the league, but I don't recall any significant coverage of that fact when the record was broken. '''tAD''' (talk) 10:20, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Lingzhi[edit]

  • I see one source listed in the bibliography but never cited, and two sources cited in body text but not list in bib.. Please get User:Ucucha/HarvErrors, find those, and fix all.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 00:58, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see, all the sources listed in the bibliography are cited. I've fixed the issues regarding the Harv errors. Thanks for pointing those out @Lingzhi:. NapHit (talk) 12:27, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Someone corrected it, I guess.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 14:02, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Cas Liber[edit]

Taking a look now.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:34, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agree it's tricky to see what else can be removed from the lead, especially as I think the first sentence is bit weird:
The history of Liverpool Football Club from 1985 to the 2015–16 Liverpool F.C. season covers the period from the appointment of Kenny Dalglish as manager, the Hillsborough disaster, the club's return to European competition in 1991, and the club's performance in the Premier League. - the last item sounds like a "thing" like the others. I'd reword it like, "The history of Liverpool Football Club from 1985 to the 2015–16 Liverpool F.C. season covers the period from the appointment of Kenny Dalglish as manager, the Hillsborough disaster, and the club's return to European competition in 1991. The club played in the top tier—reconstituted as the Premier League in 1992—of English football throughout this period." or something like it.
The 2008–09 season saw Liverpool finish second in the league to Manchester United, but they could not challenge for the title a season later, finishing seventh. - I think we can lose this sentence out of the lead if we are really trying to trim
Following the end of the season, an inquiry, headed by Lord Taylor was set up to establish the causes of the Hillsborough disaster. - the comma after "inquiry" as it stands is wrong. You can either remove it or add another one after "Lord Taylor" - not fussed really but my preference is for the former...
...recommended that major stadia remove terracing and become all-seater stadia - two "stadia" in the sentence...I'd change the second to "venues"

Otherwise looking on track for FA status. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:27, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments @Casliber:, I've addressed them. NapHit (talk) 19:43, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

Have we had an image review? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:00, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I will perform an image review later. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 12:56, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

Alrighty, here we go:

  • File:2005 trophy cropped.jpg: Free file on Commons, but missing a license statement (or commons:COM:FOP tag) for the underlying trophy is a big omission - also complained about here. Plausible EXIF but doesn't seem to match most of the other uploads, own work, photos in larger resolution of the same object appear to exist elsewhere on the web so I wonder what it is a crop of - probably also worth adding to the file page.
  • File:Hillsborough Memorial, Anfield.jpg: Free file on Commons, I wonder about the copyright status of the underlying memorial (if any). File from Flickr, apparently the license was changed after the upload to a noncommercial one but that doesn't invalidate a previous license. The Flickr user has somewhat random EXIFs in their images. Image is in a pertinent section which discusses the Hillsborough disaster.
  • File:The Kop - Last Game as a Standing Terrace - geograph.org.uk - 1493996.jpg: Free file on Commons, from an external source, no EXIF. Exists elsewhere on the web postdating the Commons upload. Caption is discussed two paragraphs farther down, as is the subject of the image.
  • File:Liverpool-PSG 1997.png: Free image on Commons, no EXIF apparently an own work. Exists elsewhere on the web at lower resolution. Image seems to match the theme of the other uploads by that uploader. Image shows a match that is described in the article section in question.
  • File:2006FACupFinal.JPG: Free image on Commons, I wonder what that trophy in the image is (as well as its copyright status). Plausible EXIF, didn't check the other uploads. Same resolution images elsewhere on Wikipedia mirrors. Image caption and topic discussed in the last paragraph of the section, seems pertinent but may be worth moving down.
  • File:Cardiff throw-in.jpg: Free image on Commons. Plausible EXIF, from Flickr, I wonder where that blue line that cuts the image vertically comes from. Didn't check other uploads from the Flickr user in detail but they appear to follow a football scene theme. Caption appears to be supported by the file page and the article text, which in the section describes the match. Image used elsewhere on the web but no indication of prior publication.

All images need WP:ALTTEXT, and as noted the first one has copyright problems. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:12, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the image review @Jo-Jo Eumerus:. I think I addressed everything you mentioned. NapHit (talk) 20:57, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Um, the first image has unresolved copyright problems. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:33, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if I'm being a little thick, but I'm not entirely sure what I'm to do with the first image? I added that tag you suggested, do I need to add anything else to it or should I just remove it and replace it with another image? NapHit (talk) 20:19, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We need to know about the copyright status of the trophy. Photos of an artwork can fall under that artwork's copyright, to simplify. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:25, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Right ok. I'm not 100% sure of the copyright status. I added the tag you linked to, I'm not sure if that is sufficient or not. I'm not much of an expert on image policy as you can probably tell! According to that discussion you linked to, trophies on display in museums have freedom of panorama, so it should be ok with that tag added shouldn't it? NapHit (talk) 18:16, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Are you able to check how this looks now? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:35, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
2006FACupFinal.jpg needs a FoP tag or something to address the derivative work concern. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 07:24, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Added the tag to the FA Cup image. NapHit (talk) 16:21, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
File:Hillsborough Memorial, Anfield.jpg might merit the same tag. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:49, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Added the tag. NapHit (talk) 15:54, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tks guys. I should've double-checked earlier but has anyone actually signed off on the sources for formatting and reliability? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:03, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not if @Lingzhi:'s reviews counts as a source review, but he did look over the formatting. NapHit (talk) 18:11, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by John[edit]

I agree with the nominator that the article "close to being at featured standard". Right now I have to oppose on prose. More to follow. --John (talk) 11:55, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • These edits represent a rough first pass towards bringing this article to FA quality. Please inspect and fix any problems I have caused. We are not paid by the word. --John (talk) 21:21, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
All looks good so far John. NapHit (talk) 10:07, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
John, are you able to complete your review? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:45, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think I now support on prose. --John (talk) 01:33, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Quick look at lead

  • The title gives the temporal scope as to the present, but the opening sentence restricts it to "the 2015–16 season".
  • "The club played in the top tier – which became the Premier League in 1992 – of English football throughout this period." – It's OK, but what do you think of this? "throughout this period, the club played in the top tier of English football, which in 1992 became the Premier League." Clear enough that the Premier League isn't non-English?
  • "which resulted in Liverpool being banned indefinitely from European competition" – what about: "which resulted in Liverpool's indefinite ban from European competition"?
  • "In April 1989, 96 of the club's supporters were killed in the Hillsborough disaster, during an FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest at Hillsborough Stadium." Two numerals juddering (just after another numerical range), which MOS doesn't much like, although it is one option. Another is to spell out "96". Or something like: "The Hillsborough disaster, which occurred during an FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest at Hillsborough Stadium in April 1989, resulted in the deaths of 96 of the club's supporters." Just a suggestion.
  • Then perhaps organise the thematic flow to the subsequent sentence like this? "After the disaster, Dalglish's led the club to their 18th title, in 1989–90; but the job was becoming too stressful and he resigned in February 1991." Please check the micro-chronology so that we've got the onset of stress timed correctly (I might have messed it up). This is referenced in the body of the article, I presume.
  • "terracing" ... could you spell it out? "the end of terraced seating", is it?
  • "In 1998, Gérard Houllier was appointed co-manager alongside Evans, which lasted until November when Evans resigned." – "which lasted" is a problem (the act of appointing?). The manner of his departure isn't clear in relation to Evans' resignation ... did Houllier resign with him?
  • The unfortunate allowance of pluralising sport teams becomes a little over the top when we have: "the club were sold to". Tony (talk) 06:08, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments @Tony1:, I've added your suggestions into the lead. NapHit (talk) 12:02, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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