Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/James A. Doonan/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 28 February 2021 [1].

James A. Doonan[edit]

Nominator(s): Ergo Sum 04:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Jesuit from the Southern US who taught at several Jesuit colleges and led Georgetown University, where he saw the completion of its flagship building. Ergo Sum 04:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hog Farm[edit]

  • I'll try to take a look over the next couple days. Might claim for wikicup. Hog Farm Bacon 04:57, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "James Doonan was said to frequently recount a story of the time he was present at a High Mass in Baltimore, when word of the approaching Union Army caused the congregants to leave and take up arms. As a staunch supporter of the Confederacy, he was aggrieved at being forced by the Union Army to bear arms on their behalf and act as a sentinel for several hours" - Cited to p. 374 in the source, but some of the material is on page 373 as well, so both should be in the page range.
  • Comment only, no action needed - I find the preceding story a little odd, because Baltimore was under Union occupation for almost the entire war, but it's supported by an RS and could have happened during a brief span in 1861. It caught my attention, at least.
    • I'm no expert in the Civil War. I'll leave that to the experts to sort out. Ergo Sum 02:59, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This was interrupted in 1868 by a year of teaching," - Where?
  • "Bishop John J. Keane, Catholic University's first rector,[17] attempted to resolve this dispute by unsuccessfully offering to purchase Georgetown University,[18] tendering this proposal to Doonan" - Chronology is a little unclear for this - implied to be 1887, but never directly stated. If this offer didn't occur in 1887, can you provide the year it did occur in?
    • I'm not able to deduce a precise year from the source. Ergo Sum 03:10, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it known what he did in Detroit?
    • Clarified that he also taught philosophy in Detroit. I can't determine at which institution, but if I were to speculate, it would be at Detroit College. The source is silent on this, though, so I'm leaving it out. Ergo Sum 03:27, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Doonan then returned to Philadelphia, where he suffered a stroke, causing partial paralysis" - Is this in 1896 or 1897?
    • The source does not specify what year he went to Lourdes or returned to Philadelphia. Ergo Sum 03:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1906, he returned to Georgetown" - Is this a reference to the university, or to Georgetown (Washington, D.C.)?
  • Is cause of death known?
  • The Find A Grave external link gives his name as Jacobus Doonan, and this old source mentions a Jacobus Doonan that was also born on November 8, 1841 and entered studies in July 1857. So was Jacobus Doonan a reasonably valid alternate name? The FAG reference is ignorable, but the other is an old 1860 Jesuit catalog, so that may be something worth mentioning. The picture on FAG supposed to be of his tombstone shows it reading the name "Jacobus A. Doonan". Probably worth a passing mention or a footnote if you can find a decent source for it.
    • Jacobus is just the Latinzed form of James. For Jesuit documents that were written in Latin (including the gravestone), they just Latinized James. This was done with most first names in old Latin documents (ecclesiastical or otherwise). Ergo Sum 03:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think Doonan is really what Category:People of Georgia (U.S. state) in the American Civil War is designed for. His ACW connection is rather fleeting.

That's it from me, I think. Nonexpert here, so I'm addressing the prose more than anything else. An interesting read. Hog Farm Bacon 03:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Hog Farm. Ergo Sum 03:39, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose. Hog Farm Bacon 03:30, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Alt text shouldn't be identical to caption - if there's nothing else to say just refer to caption
    • Improved the alt text. Ergo Sum 03:51, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:James_Doonan_portrait.jpg: when and where was this first published?
    • I have not been able to find it published anywhere, so I have update the license accordingly. Ergo Sum 03:53, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Cannon_Healy_Hall.jpg: as per the Flickr tag, is more specific tagging available? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:59, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not that I can discern. Ergo Sum 03:56, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria, I have added one more photo to the article. Would you mind reviewing that one? Ergo Sum 03:56, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

New image is fine. However, for the unpublished portrait: I see the archivelink source claims "all rights reserved". Do you know the basis for that claim? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:15, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In the past, it's seemed that the Georgetown University archives sets all image copyrights as "rights reserved" by default until someone gets around to reviewing it. Since the copyright tag was changed from rights reserved to not reviewed, I would imagine that's what happened here. (As an aside, I haven't come across an image in the GU archives that does have an actual copyright evaluation). Ergo Sum 12:49, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review.

  • "during which time he oversaw the completion". Delete "time".
    • I don't know if that's grammatically correct. The which would be referring to "president" which isn't a temporal concept or "1882 to 1888" which isn't a noun. Having "which" refer back to it strikes my ear as a bit unusual. Ergo Sum 05:47, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and construction of a new" → 'and the construction of a new'.
  • "He also acquired the two cannons in front of Healy Hall." → 'He also acquired the two cannons which are situated/placed in front of Healy Hall.'
  • "having reduced the university's burdensome debt" → 'reducing the university's burdensome debt'.
  • "He was the son of Ellen Doonan (née Barry) and Terrence Doonan, an engineer and wealthy railroad official and one of the first Catholics in Atlanta; Terrence was entrusted by the local priest with keeping the parish records until a pastor was appointed, and in his home, the first Catholic baptism in Atlanta was performed." A very long sentence. Suggest a break where the semi colon is.
  • " after which time he returned to Washington". Delete "time".
  • "for his philosophical studies. His studies were paused" Could this be rephrased to avoid "studies" twice in three words?
    • Changed one "studies" to "study." Similar but at least slightly different. Ergo Sum 05:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In September 1875, he went to Frederick". Is it known what he did in Fredrick?
    • The source does not indicate this. Ergo Sum 05:57, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During a portion of this time"> Which time?
    • Rephrased. It should be clearer that for part of his time as a professor at Georgetown, he was VP and prefect. Ergo Sum 05:56, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he was able to reduce the significant debt"; "he would eventually leave office with a greatly reduced debt." This seems to say the same thing twice.
  • "which along with the Dove brought the first settlers" Suggest "brought" → 'carried' to avoid repetition of "brought".
  • "instead, they had been a part of Lord Baltimore's expedition" I think you mean 'in fact', not "instead". Also, another long sentence, consider breaking it.
  • "Doonan first taught philosophy". Delete "first".
  • "in such subjects as". In UK English that would be 'on', not "in".
    • One of those trans-Atlantic divides. I believe "in" is the standard preposition here in American English. Ergo Sum 06:03, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Doonan then returned to Philadelphia, where he suffered a stroke," Is it known either when he returned or when he suffered his stroke?
    • Unfortunately not. The source doesn't elaborate on when he went to Lourdes, returned, or suffered a stroke. Ergo Sum 06:04, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cite 23 should be 'p.', not "pp.".

Gog the Mild (talk) 13:48, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Gog the Mild. Ergo Sum 06:05, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:28, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

- spotchecks not done

  • Source for him having been the 27th president?
    • In all the Georgetown presidents articles, I've proceeded on the blue sky principle regarding the order of their presidency. This is information I've pulled from List of presidents of Georgetown University, which itself relies on a source that does not explicitly say that Doonan or anyone else was X number, but rather lists all the presidents sequentially. So, it is necessarily an inference, but one that I think does not violate the original research policy. Ergo Sum 19:25, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • It does however present a problem with regards to the documentation of {{infobox officeholder}}, which indicates order "should only be used when there is a well established use of such numbering in reliable sources". Nikkimaria (talk) 03:25, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've done some more research. I knew some sources had conflicting ways of counting presidents (namely which presidents are counted as acting presidents and therefore not assigned a number). After digging deeper, it seems that the significantly predominant way of counting is to give the early acting presidents a number. Quite a few reliable sources can be found describing DeGioia as 48th, O'Donovan as 47th, and Healy as 46th, etc., going back several decades. Moreover, the 1891 Shea book comports with this numbering convention. Therefore, I've corrected Doonan's number and corrected the numbering for the other presidents and the List article. Ergo Sum 21:42, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "during which time he oversaw the completion and naming of Gaston Hall" - text supports the naming, but says only that he proposed its completion, not that it was actually completed during his tenure. Our article on the hall has it being completed well after his term.
    • Good catch. I've corrected this in the lede. Ergo Sum 19:44, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't duplicate publisher in author field
  • What makes The Hoya a high-quality reliable source? Mosher's Magazine?
    • Mosher's is a self-published source by the Catholic Summer School of America. Because it is being used here as a source about itself, I believe it is allowed by policy. The Hoya I believe is considered an RS under the RSSM policy; namely, a reliable student media that is here reporting on its own institution. Ergo Sum 19:43, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I wouldn't agree that RSSM supports it being a high-quality source. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:25, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Based on what I've read and researched, its reliability and editorial oversight seems to be comparable to that of the Harvard Crimson, which RSSM gives as an example of a reliable student media source. I don't know of anything that would suggest otherwise. Ergo Sum 22:27, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The library is a publisher, not a work
  • Access dates are not required or useful for GBooks links. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:19, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @User:Ergo Sum, if you are owed any favours which you could call in to obtain another review or two, now may be the time to do so. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:04, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Z1720[edit]

I do not know anything about Doonan, Georgetown or topics connected to this article, so consider me a "non-expert" reviewer. Since the article had few sources and citations, I searched for sources on various databases, but could not find anything that was not already cited in the article. Therefore, even though the article is short, I consider the research "complete" unless other sources are found.

Prose review

  • "and in his home, the first Catholic baptism in Atlanta was performed." Rephrase to "and the first Catholic baptism in Atlanta was performed in his home."
    • Done. Ergo Sum 01:50, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • It now reads: "...a pastor was appointed, the first Catholic baptism in Atlanta..." either the comma needs to be a semi-colon or "and" should be placed after the comma.
  • Optional: remove "Doonan's brother, John, also became a Jesuit priest." I believe that articles should only include information about other people if it relates to the biography of the article's topic. The article does not state how his brother's ordination as a Jesuit priest influenced or was relevant to James Doonan's life and is thus off-topic. I put it as optional because others might disagree, and I will not oppose/withhold my support if you decide to leave it in the article.
    • I generally agree, but in this instance, I think it adds something since (as far as I'm aware) it's pretty uncommon to have multiple family members not only become priests but also enter the same religious order. Ergo Sum 01:59, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • If the source verifies that this was unusual for the time, I would add that to the article. Did James' ordination influence his brother, or vice-versa? Z1720 (talk) 02:10, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Unfortunately, the source doesn't elaborate on this. Ergo Sum 02:25, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "James Doonan was said to frequently" Remove Doonan, you already introduced the full name in the paragraph.
  • "he was sent to Boston College" who sent him?
  • "and prefect of studies for a time." Remove "for a time" or specify how long he was prefect for.
  • "able to reduce the significant debt of more than $300,000" Add a Template:Inflation.
  • There's MOS:SANDWICHING happening on my laptop with the image and the infobox, and with the cannons and the portrait. These should be reformatted.
    • Fixed. Ergo Sum 01:49, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • There's still sandwiching happening with the infobox and "Doonan bust portrait.png" I am not sure you need that portrait, as you have two others and the article is short. Z1720 (talk) 02:10, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Removed the image causing sandwiching. Ergo Sum 02:29, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added wikicode to various dates that insert a non-breaking space. This was recommended to me by a GOCE reviewer to ensure there is no break in the text when viewed on a smaller screen (like a smartphone). Please revert if you feel it was unhelpful.

Let me know if you have any questions. Z1720 (talk) 01:37, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: Thank you for your comments. Ergo Sum 01:59, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Responses to brother and image sandwiching comments. Z1720 (talk) 02:10, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Notes added above to baptism bullet. Z1720 (talk) 00:41, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source check - pass General note: Since most sources are in the public domain, you can add a link in the citation that directs readers to the specific page. For example, in citation 1 the code would be <ref name=shea285>{{harvnb|Shea|1891|p=[https://books.google.ca/books?id=YdRAAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA285 285]}}</ref>. This makes it easier for readers to verify information on their own. Unless commented below, all the refs were checked and verified except ref 8, which I could not access.

  • Ref 1d: The article says, "Doonan became the acting president and vice rector" while the source says "temporary president or Vice-Rector."
    • At this time, in Jesuit institutions, a vice rector was the equivalent of an acting president, hence the source's explanation that vice rector means temporary or acting president. Ergo Sum 19:57, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 3b should be deleted, as it is cited in the next sentence.
  • Ref 3d: He also studied theology. I would include that in this paragraph somewhere.
  • Ref 3e: This info is on page 375
  • Ref 16: Article says, "Doonan purchased in 1885 two cannons from St. Inigoes, Maryland, for $50" but the source doesn't verify this info. The source says the cannons were taken to St. Inigoes for restoration but doesn't specify that St. Inigoes owned them before Doonan purchased them.
    • The way I read the source is that in 1824, they were removed from the river and brought to St. Inigoes, where they remained until Doonan bought them in 1885. The article's reference to "from St. Inigoes" does not mean that St. Inigoes owned them but that they were in St. Inigoes at the time he bought them. Ergo Sum 20:13, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 23 needs a page number. (It's page 144)
    • Thanks for catching this. Ergo Sum 20:03, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 24 and 25: I could not verify the information. Is it the wrong page number?
    • For ref 24, I've changed it to p. 195 from 196. The sentence it supports says he was a lecturer at the school and the ref supports it because p. 195 lists his name, which is part of the section that lists many of the lecturers. Ref 25 cites to p. 183, which supports the statement about the subjects he lectured in. Ergo Sum 20:10, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 29: The info is only on page 375
  • Ref 30: Is Jacobus A. Doonan the same person as James A. Doonan? Why is the name different?
    • At this time, it was still common for Jesuit records etc. to be written entirely in Latin. Hence, his name in the document is Latinized from James to Jacobus. Ergo Sum 20:04, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Let me know if you have any questions. Z1720 (talk) 00:41, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

After reviewing the responses above, I will give the source check a pass. Z1720 (talk) 01:21, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Prose part 2

  • Did you see my general note in the source review about linking page numbers?
    • Sorry, I forgot to respond. I generally prefer not to put links to pages in the inline citations themselves when convenience links are already included in the sources citations. I think it clutters the citation (and also is a fair bit of work to do!). Ergo Sum 02:22, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Understandable. Wanted to make sure you read it and considered it.
  • " an engineer and wealthy railroad official and one of the first Catholics in Atlanta." Too many ands. Replace the first and with a comma?
  • "until a pastor was appointed, the first Catholic baptism in Atlanta was performed in his home." The comma needs to be replaced with a semi-colon or "and"
    • Whoops. Fixed with an "and." Ergo Sum 02:21, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He then went to teach at Loyola College in Baltimore in 1861," replace with "He then taught at"
  • "and Doonan would eventually leave office with a greatly reduced debt." Remove eventually.
  • "he was sent to Boston College" specify who sent him.

Let me know if you have any questions. Z1720 (talk) 01:21, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My concerns have been resolved. I support this FAC. Z1720 (talk) 02:29, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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