Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John Alden/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 31 May 2020 [1].

John Alden[edit]

Nominator(s): Historical Perspective 2 (talk) 19:41, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about John Alden, a signer of the Mayflower Compact and an English colonist who played a key role in governance during the early years of Plymouth Colony. He also featured prominently in American popular culture of the late 19th and early to mid 20th centuries thanks to Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's fictionalized "Courtship of Myles Standish" in which Alden was a main character. Finally, of all the Mayflower passengers, John and Priscilla Alden have the most descendants, estimated at about 1 million (I am NOT a descendant, for what it's worth). I did a major overhaul of this page during the winter and submitted it for a peer review but got no bites. Nonetheless, I think it is in good shape and after incorporating feedback here, could be a worthy featured article. In this, the 400th anniversary year of the founding of Plymouth Colony, it might be appropriate to feature one or two articles on that topic. Thanks for your consideration. Historical Perspective 2 (talk) 19:41, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Captions need editing for grammar
Don't use fixed px size
File:Priscilla_and_John_Alden,_by_Geo._H._Boughton_(NYPL_b12647398-79379).tiff: source link gives a date range of 1898-1931; how do we know it was published before 1925? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:10, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've removed the fixed px sizes, uploaded a different version of that image from the LOC definitively dated 1884, and edited the captions. If anything is still off about the captions, just let me know. Historical Perspective 2 (talk) 16:40, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Generally if you're using a century in adjective form it should be hyphenated - ie. "in the 18th century" would be correct, but "18th-century etching" takes a hyphen. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Got it. All set. Historical Perspective 2 (talk) 12:25, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Truflip99[edit]

Reserving for comments. Hoping you could provide comments to MAX Red Line in return. --truflip99 (talk) 14:44, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be happy to. Looking at the open FAC nominations, I'm thinking you meant MAX Yellow Line? ...And thank you! Historical Perspective 2 (talk) 20:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Woops that's the one! --truflip99 (talk) 04:38, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

casting his lot with the Pilgrims -- what does this mean?

Rephrased

English origins of John Alden -- link to English people

Done

hypothesized origins "tempting," -- comma outside quotes per MOS:LQ

Done

was hired for a cooper, at South-Hampton -- link Cooper (profession) and Southampton

Done

to work temporarily when the Mayflower arrived. -- link Mayflower again in this first instance

Done

was proposed by B. Carlyon-Hughes -- historian or genealogist?

Both, noted as such

Harwich is an ancient North Sea port -- link North Sea

Done

for Alden's joining the crew -- not "Alden joining the crew" or "Alden's joining of the crew"?

Picked the former suggestion

"remembered him as tall, blond, and very powerful in physique." -- MOS:LQ

Done

"a fair presumption," -- MOS:LQ

Done

"may have been the son of George Alden the fletcher, who disappeared – probably dying in that year – leaving John, an orphan, free to take employment overseas. Jane, the widow, may have been his mother and Richard and Avys his grandparents." -- MOS:LQ

Done...I think. Last period outside the quotes?

This is, however, pure conjecture and in no way proven. -- if this is part of the previous ref [5], then place this before it. Otherwise, it looks like your own conclusion, ergo WP:OR.

Struck the sentence.

The Mayflower Descendant -- add a brief description of what this is

Done

"son and heir of John Alden of Swanscomb, Kent," -- MOS:LQ

Done

There is no evidence that John Alden of the Mayflower was connected to this family -- Mayflower not italicized?

Done

More later. --truflip99 (talk) 04:38, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you!Historical Perspective 2 (talk) 21:22, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Probably should still link the first instance of Southampton

Done

Make sure you give the painting its proper title

Done

due to Alden's useful skills, the colonists encouraged him to remain with them in America during the voyage. -- any skills in particular?

Added barrel-maker and carpenter

The 100-foot ship had 102 passengers and a crew of about 20 to 30 in extremely cramped conditions. -- "aboard in extremely cramped conditions" might sound better?

Done

A lack of proper rations and unsanitary conditions for months caused illnesses -- illnesses in particular?

Primary sources give no clues. There are many theories but they're just that.

including the majority of women and children. -- not "particularly to"?

Changed

On the way, there were two deaths, a crew member and a passenger, but the worst was yet to come. -- a little confusing; on the way to where?

Specified North America

which was then part of the Colony of Virginia. -- comma before

Done

which is an indication that he had already made the decision to remain with the settlers. -- comma before

Done

and a large hill overlooking the harbor -- establish that they would later name this Burial Hill

Done

suitable for a fort -- link Fortification

Done

During their first winter in Plymouth, most of the settlers fell ill and half died of disease. Priscilla Mullins (John Alden's future wife) lost her entire family during the first winter -- slightly redundant

Deleted second "during the first winter"

her father William Mullins, her mother Alice Mullins, and her brother Joseph Mullins. -- last names also a little redundant

Deleted

A recreation of this house stands today at Plimoth Plantation, a living history museum which replicates the original Pilgrim settlement. -- ref?

Added

Photo cap: A view of the recreated Plimoth Plantation which includes a replica of John Alden's house seen second from the left -- comma before which

Done

The fictionalized story tells of a love triangle -- link Love triangle

Added

contributing to the establishment of a national Thanksgiving holiday five years later. -- I think it's better to say the exact year here

Done

"the most celebrated Pilgrim couple in history." -- MOS:LQ

Done

others dismiss it as mere fancy. -- what does this mean?

Rephrased

Historian John Goodwin pointed out several anachronisms and inconsistencies -- link Anachronism

Done

there was not "reason for believing any part of it." -- "not a reason" or "no reason"; also MOS:LQ

Fixed

More again in a bit. --truflip99 (talk) 15:29, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This left the colonists in a quandary -- is quandary a common word?

Rephrased

the debt in exchange for a monopoly on the fur trade from the colony -- link fur trade

Done

Eight of the Plymouth colonists, including John Alden, agreed to collectively assume, or undertake, the debt in exchange for a monopoly on the fur trade from the colony. -- who granted this exchange and how?

The other colonists. I added some explanation.

known as the "Undertakers." -- MOS:LQ and ref needed

Done

The fact that Alden was among them is indicative of his growing stature in the colony. -- does this have a ref or is it your own analysis?

Added ref on this point re: Alden.

He also served as Deputy Governor on two occasions in the absence of the Governor in 1665 and 1677. He was elected Treasurer of the colony annually from 1656 to 1658. He served on the colony's Council of War, an important committee to decide on matters pertaining to the defense of the colony, in 1642, 1643, 1646, 1653, 1658 and 1667. He also served on a number of important committees including the Committee to Revise Laws, the Committee on the Kennebec Trade, and a number of additional minor posts. -- add some variety

Done

interloped in the trade prevoking -- provoking*?

Oops. Done.

When the Plymouth traders put in at Boston authorities there decided to imprison John Alden who was -- need a comma here where appropriate, also what does "put in" mean?

Done and rephrased.

intervention of Bradford that Alden was eventually released. -- Bradford linked twice.

Done

upland that had been partially cleared by Native Americans -- link hill?

I don't use the word hill there, I'm not sure a wikilink is appropriate here.

salt marsh (a good source of hay) -- "a salt marsh" or "salt marshes"? also link Salt marsh

Done

a boulder, plaque and other interpretive signage. -- comma before and

Done

The site was professionally excavated by Roland Wells Robbins in 1960, unearthing many artifacts including a halberd blade which is now exhibited at Pilgrim Hall Museum in Plymouth. The site is now part of the Duxbury school campus and is located next to a playing field. The footprint of the house is evident as a depression in the ground and is marked by a boulder, plaque and other interpretive signage. -- ref?

Added

were reluctant to break apart the "mother" church congregation in Plymouth but reluctantly gave permission. -- redundant

Fixed

A second Alden House was long believed -- is* long believed?

Past tense is correct here. The notion has been disproved, so it is no longer believed.

following local tradition -- the placement of this is a little awkward, also what is the local tradition?

Re-wrote to better explain how historians wrote about this for a long time

The Alden's first Duxbury home site and the Alden House Historic Site were together granted National Historic Landmark status in 2008. -- ref needed

Done

Family section would be better as prose

Agreed. This was a bit of struggle. I did my best here to convert to prose, adding some facts to create just a bit more narrative, citing them, and adding some new references. But in most cases very little is known about the children, so parts still look a little like a list.

John Alden was the last survivor of the signers of the Mayflower Compact. He died in Duxbury on September 12, 1687. Both he and his wife Priscilla were buried in the Myles Standish Burial Ground in Duxbury. The precise location of their graves is not known as markers either were not placed or have crumbled away. In 1930, the Alden Kindred of America placed commemorative slate stones at the estimated location of their graves near the headstone of their son, Capt. Jonathan Alden. -- ref needed for all of these statements

Done

Several artifacts attributed to John Alden are exhibited at major museums. These include the halberd blade discovered in the 1960 archaeological dig at the Alden first house site in Duxbury, the Alden family bible, and a mortar and pestle attributed to John and Priscilla Alden, all of which are displayed at Pilgrim Hall Museum. -- ref needed

Done

I believe that is it for prose. --truflip99 (talk) 16:40, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Refs - pass[edit]

Change all of the http to https

Done

As web content can change on a whim, best to use access-date parameter (IMHO)

Added

last=Alden Kindered of America -- should be publisher not last

Done

American Ancestors also should not be under the last parameter; probably use via=americanancestors.org (though not certain)

That works for me. Done.

last=Historical Marker Database -- should be publisher

Done

last=Pilgrim Society -- omit

Done

--truflip99 (talk) 17:59, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Historical Perspective 2 (talk) 14:06, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, missed a few more.

I would say doing the same for last=Plymouth Ancestors as you have for American Ancestors
and last=Library of Congress
and last=NRA Museums

--truflip99 (talk) 15:53, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done Historical Perspective 2 (talk) 18:10, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Refs look good too. --truflip99 (talk) 19:34, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

Sorry but with only one comprehensive review after more than a month it looks like consensus to promote is a long way off so I'm going to archive this. The list is big right now so this might get more traction in a couple of weeks as we work to pare things down. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:46, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 23:47, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.