Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Judith Resnik/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 9 July 2022 [1].

Judith Resnik[edit]

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:05, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Judith Resnik, one of the original six American women astronauts who died in the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:05, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Image review—pass (t · c) buidhe 05:48, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, it is a featured article, though I would prefer to split long paragraphs and merge one-sentence ones. All in all, the article is really good! Kudos to the nominator for this. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 02:15, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review.

Thanks. This is much appreciated. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:08, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in military intelligence and aerial reconnaissance in the Pacific Theater and the Occupation of Japan." Possibly some commas, or a mild rephrasing, would avoid the reading that he worked in "aerial reconnaissance in ... the Occupation of Japan"?
    What's the problem? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    As it stands it reads that Resnik served in both military intelligence and aerial reconnaissance during the occupation of Japan. I am assuming, possibly incorrectly, that there was little call for aerial reconnaissance during the occupation of Japan.
    I am not assuming that. The source says: "He was stationed in New Guinea, and after the war, in Kyoto, Japan, doing both aero reconnaissance and prisoner interrogation." Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and with whom she became quite close." Why the qualifying "quite"? It seems wishy washy and I can't find where this is in the source given.
    Just my way of talking. Deleted "quite". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "one of six women selected out of over 8,000 male and female applicants". Is it known how many men were selected?
    Twenty-nine. Added. There is a detailed breakdown in the NASA Astronaut Group 8 article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the second attempt the following day". 'The following day, during the second attempt' would avoid the possibility of a misreading.
    Um, okay. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Space Shuttle Main Engines". Why the upper case M and E? I note that the source - NASA - uses lower case.
    Lower cased. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Discovery landed back at Edwards Air Force Base on September 5, after a flight lasting 6 days and 56 minutes." This jars a little as a single sentence paragraph and I don't think it necessary.
    We need it because her time in space is required. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a trouble bolt on the Space Shuttle Challenger's door." What is "a trouble bolt"?
    Changed to "troublesome". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Also, was it a threaded bolt or part of door latching/locking mechanism?
  • "reminding the cockpit crew of a switch configuration change". What is "a switch configuration change"?
    Gee, I don't know that either. Looking it up on StackExchange:

    A primary flight instrument for the shuttle pilots was the Attitude Direction Indicator (ADI). In the STS-51L days this was a electromechanical instrument. Pre-launch, the ADI ATTITUDE switch is set to the REF position, although LVLH is the desired frame of reference for flying the Orbiter in "airplane mode". This means that shortly after liftoff, the switch must be moved to LVLH to set up the instrument for a possible ascent abort. Although it was desirable to avoid switch throws during ascent, the switch could not be pre-positioned to LVLH by the Astronaut Support Personnel (ASPs, or "Cape Crusaders") who set the cockpit switches, because there was a singularity in the calculations of LVLH attitude at pitch of 90 degrees (which the Orbiter was at on the pad). [2]

    Any chance of informing the readers of that? Either by adding a brief "translation" or by replacing the technical term with a more plain English version.
    Yes, I have done this. Added it in a footnote. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Resnik was reading from the launch checklist. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "three of the crew members' Personal Egress Air Packs were activated for pilot Michael J. Smith and two other crew members." You don't need "three of the crew members" and "pilot Michael J. Smith and two other crew members." (Suggest deleting the former.
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Landmarks and buildings being named for her include". Why do you use the word "being"?
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "verified by flight experience (include launch date)". I don't understand what is meant by the words in parentheses.
    It's part of the application form. Replaced with ellipsis Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The goal of the center is to increase science, technology, engineering, and mathematics interest in children." This seems a little clumsy, even ungrammatical. Perhaps 'The goal of the center is to increase the interest of children in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics'?
    Reworded as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No publisher for Wayne?
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 21:46, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Addition thought: "Occupation of Japan"; why the upper case O? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:49, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Just the Occupation query immediately above left, but that doesn't stand in the way of my support. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:52, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    An artefact of the Wikipedia article name. De-capped. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:41, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

  • I find the first sentence a bit unwieldy. Can we not cut it off after the disaster and put the other links somewhere else? This leads into my other comment re the lead, that the discussion of her NASA service should be expanded, after all, you use only two paragraphs for the lead. I note that the discussion of her time at NASA is the lead is small in proportion to that in the body of the article.
    Expanded intro. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His family had emigrated to Israel in the 1920s," It wasn't Israel yet. Perhaps "British mandatory Palestine" or some such?
    Well spotted. Changed asc suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • It might be worthy of note (or might not) that in 1962, it was quite unusual for girls to mark their Bat Mitzvah.
    Yes! This points to things to come. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I suppose it is unusual for the child to be initiator, it's not at all unusual for a court to place custody where a mature teenager prefers, since such a person is the 800-pound gorilla of custody law, that sleeps where they want to.(probably no action required).
    Good to hear; back then the interests of the child were not paramount in the US. I have seen this happen: a teenager decides that they would rather live with their father and just moves out. When the Child Support Agency finds out, they cut the mother's child support payments. But no court action is required. What I've noticed is that most astronauts have good relationships with both their parents, but tend to be closer to their fathers. The only exception I've come across so far has been Scott Carpenter, whose father was absent. But of six biographies of women astronauts, three had bad relationships with their mothers. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In her second year she developed a passion for electrical engineering, discovering her interest in "practical aspects of science" after attending lectures with her boyfriend and future husband, Michael Oldak, who was on the engineering course.[1] " What do you mean by "who was on the engineering course"? Doesn't sound like AmEng to me. If he was taking the same class, that is already implied; if he was an engineering major, I would phrase it in terms of that.
    Yes. Sometimes you can see me thinking the sentence through. Deleted that phrase. Trying to get AmEng right is a big problem for me. The automated checkers do not pick up on such things. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Georgetown University law school," I would cap throughout, and possibly say and link "Georgetown University Law Center"
    I don't know why the call it that. I was afraid that readers would think it was a legal aid centre or some such. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jordan later regretted doing so." I might come out and say "After her death, Jordan regretted doing so"
    Just trying not to foreshadow. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was she recruited or did she apply? There apparently was a process, since she dated other candidates.
    Yes, there was an elaborate process, which I have written up at great length in NASA Astronaut Group 8. Changed to "selected". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Discovery landed back at Edwards Air Force Base on September 5, after a flight lasting 6 days and 56 minutes." Why "back"? It hadn't launched from there.
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Space Shuttle Challenger's door." The door spoken of is perhaps one of the payload bay doors? Then shouldn't "door" be plural?
    No, it was the door. Changed to "hatch". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it worth mentioning she's commemorated on the Space Mirror Memorial?
    Sure. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:02, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support--Wehwalt (talk) 16:25, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Kusma[edit]

I reviewed the article for GA and am happy with its sourcing. I am also pleased to see that it has been further improved based on the comments above. I only have some small things:

  • "She piloted the Northrop T-38 Talon." a rather short sentence that perhaps could be clarified by saying that this was part of her astronaut training, not her civilian fun (which isn't obvious if you don't know what type of plane it is).
    Added a bit about this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "In popular culture" section is a bit short. Is there a way to merge it into "Legacy"? (A well justified "no" would be fine).
    Merged with Legacy section. It was once larger. I had retained it to collect additions. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd also like to hear that your decision not to talk about Franz Strambach here (author of the most comprehensive Judith Resnik website) is deliberate. I think that arguments could be made in either direction.
    I'd never heard of it. It seems fairly trivial and incidental, but added a footnote about it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I had mentioned it while making conversation during the GA review. The footnote strikes the right balance for me (I find it borderline worthy of inclusion in a comprehensive treatment).

That's all from me. —Kusma (talk) 12:45, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Happy now, supporting. —Kusma (talk) 20:05, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Balon Greyjoy[edit]

Article looks in good shape! Some comments:

  • Not all of the photos have alt text.
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Bat Mitzvah was not common at this time." It's not clear how this fits into Resnik's story; was there resistance to her having a Bar Mitzvah?
    The majority of Orthodox and some Conservative Jews still reject the idea that a woman can publicly read from the Torah or lead prayer services. The more important point here that Wehwalt and I are emphasising is that Resnik grew up in an environment that was supportive of female equality. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Resnik was noticed for "intellectual brilliance" while still in kindergarten" I don't think "intellectual brilliance" needs to be directly quoted; it's not attributed to anyone and can be paraphrased without a loss of meaning.
    The idea was to avoid paraphrasing. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Why would paraphrasing be avoided on a two word quote? It's not a profound/unique quote. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Removed the quotation marks. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Playing classical piano with "more than technical mastery", she planned on becoming a professional concert pianist" It's not clear what it means to even be more advanced than technical mastery (which comes across like it is the highest level). Wouldn't it just be appropriate to say she was skilled in piano and planned to become a professional pianist?
    It makes it clear clear that this was a real prospect. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When questioned about her intensity at the piano, she replied, "I never play anything softly"." I don't think this adds to any claims of her skills playing piano. Additionally, is this from an interview or just her commenting that she plays the piano loudly?
    She is talking metaphorically. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, but the metaphor of her playing loudly doesn't translate to her being a skilled pianist. The reference makes no mention of the metaphor, and the sentence itself is pretty close to the reference sentence, albeit flipped around. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The college entry and major selection is confusing. It starts off by saying she became an electrical engineering student, then goes into her deciding to become an electrical engineering student. Maybe something like, "She began college as a math major, but after attending lectures with her boyfriend, discovered an interest in electrical engineering and switched her major".
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Oldak said, "She was a math whiz, but at some point math lost the numbers and she wanted something more tangible so she switched her collegiate major to electrical engineering"." I think this quote can be paraphrased and put into the previous sentence, as it's already been addressed that she liked math but wanted practical applications.
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Carnegie Mellon University (as it now was)" Maybe move the Carnegie Mellon name change earlier? It's not clear if the college changed its name by the time she graduated, or if the name changed sometime before present day.
    I think it is clear enough that the name changed while she was there. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "attention of NASA during this time" Anyone particular at NASA? Did someone reach out to ask her about her paper?
    Source doesn't say. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he wanted to start a family and she did not" I think this should be that he wanted to have children and she did not; they already had a family between the two of them.
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After her death, Jordan regretted doing so. "She was an amazing person... I pushed her to excel, and I live with that memory every day."" I don't think this needs to be included. It jumps ahead in the chronology of the article, and it just seems like understandable regret from someone who encouraged her to apply.
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "where she would jog along the beach to improve her stamina and reduce her weight" Is this significant? Was she out of shape/overweight? It seems like it's just someone routinely exercising.
    Resnik struggled with her weight. The reader can see this in the images. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I may just be desensitized to overweight people in America, but I don't think any of the pictures make it look like Resnik was overweight. It seems like pretty standard exercising, especially for someone trying to be an astronaut. I don't think it needs to be stated, let alone explained why someone would run for exercise. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    In this case it is about her purpose: gaining astronaut selection. It wasn't common back then, especially for women, and demonstrates her determination to be selected. She is the only member her her class that I have examined so far who did this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:57, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This involved taking a pay cut, as her new salary was considerably less than what she was being paid at Xerox." Seeing as her pay isn't mentioned at all through the rest of the article, I'm not sure why this is mentioned. Did it factor into her decision to join NASA?
    Clearly not. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    So why is it being mentioned then? It seems like an out of place detail. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Precisely because it tells the reader that Resnik was not doing it for the money. Military astronauts were still paid their usual salaries; some of the others, like Sally Ride, were paid more than they were getting before; but Resnik took a pay cut. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She dated some of her fellow astronaut candidates, who nicknamed her "JR"." This reads like it was a nickname only from the astronaut candidates she dated. Additionally, did she go by JR or did they sometime just call her by her initials?
    It's a military custom. Her fellow astronauts in Group 8 called her that all the time. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't categorize using initials to refer to someone as a military custom, unlike the use of a callsign. Also, I don't have my copy of Mullane's book with me (currently moving back to the US) but I don't recall him referring to her as JR. I would argue that initials are just as much of a standard nickname as an abbreviated/informal first name, and there's no explanation for why she was called "Judy" (nor should there be). Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    It was more of a callsign. I have re-worded to make it clear that it was used by all the astronauts in her class. I don't know of any other astronauts who were nicknamed with their initials. If you read Mullane's book, you will find constant references to it. (She called him "Tarzan".) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Did she seriously date her fellow astronaut candidates? Simply saying that she dated some of them without further details may have some negative connotations and somewhat implies promiscuity. I don't want to break WP:NPOV, but I also think it's important not to imply things that could be perceived negatively, especially when it is a relatively minor details. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Sally Ride and Rhea Seddon also dated more than one other astronaut, and they eventually married one. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as it had some similarities to the Space Shuttle" I'm not sure about this. T-38s at NASA pre-date the Space Shuttle, and NASA used a modified Gulfstream to simulate flying the orbiter.
    Correct. "The flying is not an exact physical simulation; the astronauts use the Shuttle Training Aircraft, or STA, for that. But flying the approach in a T-38 shows them what a landing in the shuttle will look like, time and time again." Deleted phrase to avoid confusion. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Astronaut Jerome Apt described her as "an excellent pilot and a superb operator in space"" Since she an Apt weren't on the same missions, its not clear how his testimony fits in here. If he was the CapCom or backup crew, wouldn't this make more sense under the STS-41 section?
    We're talking about her pilot skills here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last paragraph of the Selection section leans heavily on the opinions of Rhea Seddon, but it's not clear why she's being quoted, as it's not like she was in the position to make astronaut assignments. Regardless, I don't think there needs to be a quote talking about how much fun she was at happy hour.
    It tells us about Resnik's personality. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The first Seddon quote doesn't mention Resnik's personality; it was just Seddon's opinion on who would be picked. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During a visit to a contractor's factory, Resnik whispered to Mullane: "there are no maidens on this flight"." What does this mean? I thought it might be a Selleck quote but nothing popped up when I searched for it. Unless I'm missing an obvious reference, it doesn't belong in the article.
    Resnik asserts her equality with the male astronauts. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    That is not clear from the quote; it just reads like it's an offhand comment made to Mullane. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She advocated the benefits of the solar array technology, particularly for future use in powering space stations" I'm assuming this occurred sometime after the mission? I'm assuming she did not begin advocating for a major tech change midway through a Space Shuttle mission.
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "send civilians on the Space Shuttle" would "private citizens" be better than "civilians?" A common definition for civilian is someone not in the military, which Resnik falls under.
    Not what we mean. Changed to "non-astronauts". The sources consistently use "civilians". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think the TV movie needs to be mentioned. There are already a lot of legacy/memorial things mentioned, and I don't think the role of a relatively unknown actress in a made-for-TV movie needs to be included, let alone in a standalone paragraph at the end of the section.
    I'm sure people will add more over time. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The IEEE source makes no mention of Resnik.
    A 301. Repaired. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • A number of the articles are missing dates.
    Added some. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 13:47, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work! I support this nomination. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 11:17, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note -- although I note that the GAN reviewer was satisfied with sourcing, I also carried out a source review for reliability and formatting and made a couple of minor tweaks; as there are no concerns I'm not going to recuse from closing this nom. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:36, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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