Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Juwan Howard/archive5

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Juwan Howard[edit]

Juwan Howard (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Toolbox
Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:55, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because the results of the last two FACs has been that there has been a lack of reviewer interest in this candidate period as opposed to any real objection to it. I then noticed that WP:NBA has not had an article promoted to WP:FA since 2009-APR-19 (Magic Johnson). (The same is really true of WP:CBBALL, except it has had articles passed more recently that are tagged by the project, but where the subject of the article is really notable for a sport other than basketball. E.g., Jackie Robinson and Otto Graham or notable for something other than sports). I have also noticed that there are many reviewers who are active with WP, who were involved in seeing NBA articles promoted in the past. I contacted all the active editors who were involved in two NBA FA promotions to see if they were interested in reviewing this candidate. Each replied that they would consider this candidate. Thus, I am hoping that Igordebraga (talk · contribs), Chensiyuan (talk · contribs), Giants2008 (talk · contribs) and Casliber (talk · contribs) all will evaluate this candidate. Basically, in my fifth attempt, I am hoping that a consensus is reached rather than that the review essentially times out. I will also be dropping a note with WP:NBA, WP:CBBALL and WP:CHICAGO. I may also contact some other reviewers who only participated in one of the NBA promotions if I still don't get feeback on this nomination. I may also contact others who have been involved in this aqrticle in the past.TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:55, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lead
  • "A one-time All-Star and one-time All-NBA power forward, he starred as an All-American on the Michigan Wolverines men's basketball team as part of the Fab Five recruiting class of 1991 that reached the finals of the 1992 and 1993 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament." There are too many things crammed into this sentence. It needs to be split up or trimmed.
  • It might be better to combine the All-Star and All-NBA details with the sentence about the draft. I would also move the line about the Heat championship to be closer to the other NBA details. It's better to keep the college stuff together and the NBA stuff together, rather than going back and forth within the paragraph. Zagalejo^^^ 02:27, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here are similar phrases, with just one sentence between them: "reached the finals of the 1992 and 1993 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament" ... "helped Michigan reach the finals of the 1992 and 1993 National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Men's Division I Basketball Championship"
  • Also, you should explain what NCAA stands for the first time you mention it, rather than the second.
  • "while starting a combined 304 of a possible 350 games during their collective freshman and sophomore years" It took me a while to figure out what this means. I was initially confused, because the Wolverines only played about 70 actual games during that time frame. I bet other readers will either stumble over the phrase, or misinterpret it. In any case, I don't think it's an appropriate detail for the lead.
  • How is "...reach the NCAA finals of the 1992 and 1993 while starting 87% of the games during their collective freshman and sophomore years"--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:48, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still don't think the particular detail is important enough for the lead. It should be sufficient to say that they were all part of the 1991 recruiting class. Zagalejo^^^ 02:27, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know if you were a fan of the game back then, but the thing that made the Fab Five the Fab Five was that they were the starting Five. All the press was about five freshman starting, beating teams and wearing outrageous clothes. We are not talking something like this years Michigan Fresh Five who all play in most games, but sometimes as the 8th or 9th guy. They were five guys who started. That was how they were marketed. It is not like last years Kentucky team where the gimmick was all first rounders after the fact. This was 5 freshman who all started and took their team to the championship game. Imagine if Kentucky had been 5 freshman last year. The fact that they were the starters is no minute detail. If you want to help me phrase it differently that is fine, but we are talking about 5 starting freshman.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:06, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • MOS:INTRO seems applicable: "avoid ... over-specific descriptions, since greater detail is saved for the body of the article." The 87% seems too specific and not intuitive without explanation. I suggest calling them "significant contributors" or "primary starters" or something similar in the lead. I'm still mulling if the 87% et al is appropriate in the body.—Bagumba (talk) 07:53, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks better. I removed "collective", since I don't think it adds any extra meaning. Zagalejo^^^ 18:12, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wouldn't it make more sense to discuss Vocational at the beginning of the second paragraph?
  • Well, now I think you need some sort of transitional phrase to signal the move from high school to college. Zagalejo^^^ 02:27, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done.--07:20, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "In 2010, he signed with the Heat and entered his 17th NBA season, during which he reached the playoffs for the sixth time and made his first career NBA Finals appearance. Howard has developed a reputation as a humanitarian for his civic commitment." It seems strange that the paragraph skips over his championship with the Heat. (I know it's mentioned in the opening paragraph, but for the sake of narrative flow, it would be good to also mention it in the third paragraph.) Zagalejo^^^ 06:36, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • I noiced that the section never specifically establishes that he was born in Chicago. Also, the first mention of "South Side" should indicate that it refers to the South Side of Chicago.
High school
  • "Chicago Vocational Career Academy (CVS)" - People are going to wonder where the "S" comes from in the abbreviation. I think I might have asked this before, but was the school officially known as a "Career Academy" while Howard was playing?
  • Hmm. It is rarely called anything more than Chicago Vocational in the articles that I see. The wikipedia article says it is still called CVS even though the formal name would suggest CVCA. If the reader click through to the article, they won't be as confused. I am unable to find out when the school officially became the Career Academy. The school calls itself CVCA on its own website, but WP does not seem to acknowledge this.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:26, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, a lot of the CPS article titles are screwed up because of User:ChicagoHistory1's page moves. We could solve a few problems by just dropping the use of "CVS", and replacing it with "Vocational". Zagalejo^^^ 05:26, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK. Zagalejo^^^ 06:04, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • But it would still be good to get clarification on the official name of the school. Zagalejo^^^ 05:23, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was also chosen for the National Honor Society.[3][7][8] He served as Vocational's homecoming king." - Might be good to combine these two short sentences, to avoid choppiness.
  • "Finally, as a disciplinary measure, he was shipped home on the last day of the six-day camp." - I don't really like that "shipped home" part. Zagalejo^^^ 22:54, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Scouting report
  • "According to Mariotti, he was also regarded as a rock-solid power forward who provided rebounds and defense, in contrast to his flamboyant teammate Webber." It might be better to use an actual quote from Mariotti here. The "rock-solid" part, at least, needs to be in quotation marks, because that is directly taken from Mariotti.
  • OK... but while we're on the subject, I don't think we need to include that much of Mariotti's quote in the footnote. The last two sentences in the footnote aren't used to support anything in the body of the article. Zagalejo^^^ 05:26, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a mix of present tense and past tense when describing Howard here. For example, present tense: "NBA analyst Doug Collins described Howard as a player who can 'play with his back to the basket and can shoot from about 16 feet outside' and who 'plays with a lot of energy and emotion'." Then past-tense: "Later Bembry noted that he was a power forward who is able to play center".
  • Well, there's consistency within that one sentence, but there are other sentences in that paragraph that describe Howard's game in the present tense. I'm not really sure what verb tense would be better, but some consistency would be good. The whole section is a bit difficult to read, because it ends up skipping ahead to 1996, then 2001, then 2010, etc. If you try to read the whole article in one sitting, it's jarring. Zagalejo^^^ 05:26, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, there are ways of incorporating the quotes that could make for a smoother read. But I really don't have any quick fixes for that section. Zagalejo^^^ 06:04, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The team's head coach, Jim Lynam, described Howard as a 'complete player' and noted that 'he can defend you and he can score over you'." Might be good to clarify what team he was coaching, since the Bullets haven't been mentioned in a while. Zagalejo^^^ 23:13, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As an elder statesman with the Heat, he was regarded as a future NBA executive (coach or general manager)." I think he can drop the "executive" part, and just say, "he was regarded as a future NBA coach or general manager".
Washington Bullets era (1994–96)
  • If we're going to mention the trade rumors, we should probably mention the teams involved.
  • "After Webber joined the Bullets, many thought that the two former Fab Five members would bring success to the team, coached by Lynam." - It's been a while since Lynam was last mentioned. A first name would be useful here.
  • The text of this article is so dense, it doesn't take long to lose track of things. Zagalejo^^^ 06:04, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Howard participated in the February 11, 1995, NBA All-Star Game weekend events as a member of the youth challenge match." - I'm not sure why we call it the "youth challenge match". What was the official name of the game at the time? According to the article on the subject, it was known as the Rookie Challenge, but I don't know off the top of my head if that's correct.
  • It has always been rookies and sophomores, I thought. My source does not give the contest a title. Not comfortable with rookie challenge for a rookie-sophomore game.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:03, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, there was a time when it was all rookies. Zagalejo^^^ 06:06, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "That month, he became the second Bullet (since the award's inception in 1981) and first since Jeff Ruland in January 1982 to earn NBA Rookie of the Month." - This needs to be reworded a bit. You don't earn the "NBA Rookie of the Month". You earn the Rookie of the Month Award. (You could also say he was named Rookie of the Month.) Zagalejo^^^ 05:39, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Bullets were expected to be a contender with Webber, Howard, Muresan, Mark Price, and Robert Pack. Webber, Price and Pack missed almost the entire 1995–96 season (65, 75 and 51 games respectively) because of injuries." - It would be good to have a transitional phrase between these sentences. Indeed, the whole paragraph about the 1995-96 season seems a bit choppy, with lots of disparate ideas thrown together.
  • That particular transition is good, but the paragraph as a whole still needs to flow better. Zagalejo^^^ 00:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • What do you think of the current version. I split the paragraph. One para talks about team chemistry/makeup/expectations and such. The other talks about Howard's newsworthy feats and results.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:28, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A little bit better, but there's still room for improvement. For example, the part about the Knicks making moves to sign him is an abrupt departure from the narrative. (Did they ever even make an offer to Howard? Nothing more is said about this.) Zagalejo^^^ 20:18, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A Sports Illustrated story presented Howard as if he could dominate games at will during that season." - "presented Howard as if" is awkward.
  • "However, according the NBA league office, the Heat miscalculated its available salary..." - "its" or "their"? Earlier in the article, "Heat" is treated as a plural form. ("The Heat are Howard's eighth NBA team.")
  • "He became the first player in NBA history to sign a contract worth more than $100 million;[156][157] his seven-year contract was worth $105 million. He never reached the level of All-Star status again." - The way these facts are presented together suggestions some degree of causation, which I don't think we should be doing, per WP:NPOV and WP:OR.
Washington Wizards era (1996–2001)
  • "On November 11, 1996, Howard failed a sobriety test when he was caught speeding and was charged with driving while intoxicated." - So, what happened with this? After presenting this fact, we just skip ahead to the coaching change.
  • With DWI, you are sort of guilty once you fail the test so being charged means you have to pay some fine, do community service or if a repeat offender serve some time. It is pretty likely one of these things happened. I also found a story without resolution that he was charged with shoplifting. This is a more grey area type thing. You really assume innocence on that so a story without a resolution has a different impact and in the case of a BLP should be avoided.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:53, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He failed to score 30 points in any game." - This seems like a weird thing to say. 30 is kind of an arbitrary cutoff.
  • It's still treating 30 points as some sort of magical cutoff. Zagalejo^^^ 00:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not that unusual. I'm sure you can find similar statistics for other players. It's easier to score 20 points than 30 points. Zagalejo^^^ 02:30, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the offseason, Howard's name surfaced in trade rumors that had him going to the New York Knicks in exchange for Pat Ewing with the thinking that the trade would better position the Wizards for the 2001 free agent market." - His name is almost always presented as Patrick Ewing.
  • "On December 31, 2000, Howard, in a game against the Detroit Pistons, posted his career high of 15 free throws." - We should probably clarify that this was 15 made free throws.
  • "Not only did Howard's statistics (approximately 18 points, 7 rebounds and 2.8 assists) compare favorably to both players according to Milton Kent of The Baltimore Sun, but also his role as his team's primary scoring option was a role that neither of the two alternatives had to endure." - "had to endure" doesn't sound right in this context. I think the whole sentence can be restructured to read more smoothly. Zagalejo^^^ 03:06, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A little bit better, though it could probably use some streamlining. Zagalejo^^^ 00:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not totally satisfied, but I won't lose any sleep over it. Zagalejo^^^ 02:30, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
2001-04
  • A lot of the paragraphs here suffer from choppiness and the awkward inclusion of random facts.
  • "Howard provided the Mavericks with a back-to-the-basket player who moved into the starting power-forward position, enabling Dirk Nowitzki to play small forward and Bradley to play center." - Shawn Bradley hasn't been mentioned for a long time. A first name would be useful here.
  • "This was the first time since his rookie holdout season that he did not start every game he played in.[100] All reserve appearances occurred between November 21 and December 11, and eight of them were in consecutive games between November 21 and December 5." - Might be good to explain why he was no longer starting.
  • I thought there would be something at the Chicago Public Library website, but all I can get are abstracts. Zagalejo^^^ 00:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the season, teammate Tracy McGrady successfully defended his scoring championship,[219] while Howard attempted to be a positive influence when the situation arose, such as when he attempted to stop McGrady from kicking the basketball into the stands twice in a row." - This is pretty trivial. Is there a better example of his leadership?
  • Yao Ming's family name is Yao, so the convention is to treat "Yao" like his last name. Zagalejo^^^ 05:47, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
2007-10
  • "Howard agreed to terms with the Dallas Mavericks on October 30, 2007, but was not able to officially sign until the next day, when he cleared waivers.[265][266] Terms of the deal were not disclosed publicly." - Most teams do not publicly announce the specifics of their contracts, but I'm sure the specifics were reported somewhere. (As you do elsewhere in the article, you can say his contract was "believed to be [such and such]".)
  • Basketball-reference got something from somewhere: [2] Zagalejo^^^ 00:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It looks like they penciled in the veterans minimum. Maybe they had a source and maybe they just guessed. Might be the case that if they don't release anything you assume the veteran's minimum. Regardless, they are a borderline RS for game stats, but are not an RS for salaries.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:12, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Miami Heat era (2010–present)
  • "By joining the Heat, Howard joined a team that by the time of the 2011 NBA playoffs, included former champion Dwyane Wade as well as a group of players such as LeBron James and Chris Bosh who had not won an NBA championship and combined for 29 All-Star game selections." - That last part (about the 29 combined All-Star selections) seems misplaced. The figure includes players who weren't on the Heat.
  • Yes, Wade had won a championship already. But James, Bosh, and Howard didn't combine for 29 selections themselves. If you look at the source, the number includes players from all over the NBA, like Dirk Nowitzki. Zagalejo^^^ 00:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "That March, he was part of the collective subject of the documentary film The Fab Five that reignited controversy and reinvigorated the Duke–Michigan basketball rivalry." - "was part of the collective subject" is unnecessarily wordy. You could just say he was "featured in" the documentary, or something like that. Zagalejo^^^ 05:58, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ironically, a teammate with the Heat was Shane Battier, who grew up in Detroit as a fan of the Fab Five and idolized Howard." - See here: Isn’t It Ironic? Probably Not
Personal
  • "Howard has remained a Chicago resident throughout his NBA career. In 1996, he bought a 3,116-square-foot (289.5 m2) town home in the South Loop area for $490,000 that he still owns." - The way the sentence is structured, one might interpret it as saying that he still owns the $490,000.
  • Are the details about his foundation up to date? Zagalejo^^^ 06:09, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • New comments from Zagalejo - I'll add to this section as I read through the article once more.
Lead
  • "While he continued to be a productive starter, he was never again selected to play in an All-Star Game." - The lead never clearly establishes when he was named an All-Star. Zagalejo^^^ 02:07, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • "Helena was working at a Chicago restaurant when she became pregnant with Juwan." - Is there a way to reword this so it doesn't sound like she was impregnated inside the restaurant? (I'm sorry if that sounds silly, but that's the way I initially interpreted things.) Zagalejo^^^ 02:26, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
High school
*"Taylor Bell of the Chicago Sun-Times noted that Howard was leaning toward playing for either DePaul or for the Illinois Fighting Illini because Thomas, whom Howard admired, had been a member of the team in 1989." - It's not clear whether Thomas was playing for DePaul or Illinois. (Also, why include the nickname for one school, but not the other?) Zagalejo^^^ 02:32, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although Howard was perceived as one of the top prospects in the city of Chicago at that time, the best Chicago-area prospect was Glenn Robinson of Gary, Indiana." - Not sure why we need to bring this up. In any case, the sentence should be reworded to clarify that Robinson was "ranked" as the best player (not that he was the best). Zagalejo^^^ 02:36, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I made some tweaks myself. In my experience, Chicago high school basketball players aren't typically grouped with players from NW Indiana, since their schools wouldn't play each other under normal circumstances. But it's not that big of a deal. Zagalejo^^^ 05:33, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments from Bagumba
  1. High school and college sections seem too long relative to pro section. Either they need to be shortened (likely) or pro section is lacking details. For example, some of the college game-by-game details would be better summarized at a higher level, with details WP:PRESERVEd at articles like 1991–92 Michigan Wolverines men's basketball team or 1992 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament.
    • At FAC4, you encouraged me to expand his high school section. Then, on your talk page you mentioned you were surprised at my resistance to doing so. Currently, high school is 8969 characters, college is 7,524, and pro is 26,988. In a 50479 character article, that may seem a bit off, but keep in mind Howard was only a 1-time all-star with minimal playoff success. Generally, when I write articles, the pro career emphasizes contributions to playoff success performance and great things that make his All-Star qualities apparent. Thus, his article is not going to have a lot of extensive discussion of the types of details that other current FAs will have of perennial All-Stars. He was an All-American high school and college player so several thousand characters for each is reasonable, IMO. Further guidance in this regard would be helpful, but it does not seem actionable.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:22, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • FAC4 issue was lack of details before high school, not actual high school. Unfortunately the statistics you cited don't change my subjective opinion. I can invest time to provide actionable items if you've completed your good-faith attempt to condense details. Offhand, the sneakers incident is a full paragraph, and contains full quotes. The fact that it is only sourced to one reference makes me wonder if it is given WP:UNDUE weight.—Bagumba (talk) 20:34, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • The sneaker issue is only 60% of the paragraph and was detailed in response to a request by Acdixon (talk · contribs) to flesh out clarification by at Wikipedia:Peer review/Juwan Howard/archive3.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:13, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • At TTT's request, I'm dropping in to comment on the sneaker issue. First, I think it is a mischaracterization to say that it consumes a full paragraph. The paragraph also contains details about how Howard performed against a future 12-year pro (who was notable for being one of the tallest players in NBA history) at a camp that was quite notable during that period in NBA history. Second, the sneaker incident undoubtedly bears mention, and per WP:BLP, I think we must be careful to show that the matter was investigated and no definitive proof apparently exists that the theft charges were true. The last quote by Howard, however, can probably be eliminated if length is becoming a concern. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 14:39, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • I am having trouble with your request at a good-faith attempt to condense details. PR3 was a several weeks long attempt to refine the content. Back then attending camps was much more of a big deal than it is today in the AAU summer circuit era. I don't see detail in there that does not explain who Howard was. You essentially asked me to read Albom in a good faith attempt to expand the pre-professional section and now are asking me to shorten it. Your FAC 4 statement was "an FA should leverage books for well rounded perspectives. Some candidates are biographies (e.g. ISBN 0766010651 ISBN 0791045757) or on Fab Five (ISBN 0446517348). I wont oppose without them, but I wouldn't pass it either." Although later you said read Albom mostly for pre-high school stuff. I could not in good conscience not at least finish the chapter I was in given that you advocated leveraging the book for a well-rounded perspective. You advocated reading the whole book if possible, which would encompass high school and college. Now you want a good faith attempt to shorten this section. I told you it was already bordering on too lengthy and you fought hard for my to review Albom.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:28, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • I'm sorry if I was not explicit with cautioning you about WP:UNDUE, which I assumed was a policy which you were already aware. Taking that into account now, I hope we can improve the article and provide appropriate breadth and depth of coverage.—Bagumba (talk) 08:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
              • I am not arguing WP:UNDUE, I am arguing WP:AGF. When a reviewer tells you you have to incorporate a source that covers a certain time period to add breadth in FAC4 and then in FAC5 says that you should endeavor to hatchet that same time period, it is difficult to take him seriously. The only things I added to that period of his life covered by the book are from the book you mandated that I incorporate. I.E., previously you looked at the content and said add stuff from this source. I have done that and now you are looking at the same content with stuff added from that source and saying chop it up. Do you expect to be taken seriously. In terms of understanding balance. I am fairly certain that I am the only person to have taken three high school basketball players to WP:GA (Jabari Parker, Jahlil Okafor and Mitch McGary*) and I would bet I have taken more college basketball players to GA than anyone on WP so I have a better feel for most on this type of content than most.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 09:19, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. There are multiple footnotes referring to "Star Sketches of Top 50 High School Senior Basketball Players: Juwan Howard C/F 6–10 230". Is this the same as the Albom 1993 reference under "References"? If so, why the different title? If not, more information is needed on the source.
  3. The double-double totals for each season are reference from a WP:PRIMARY source such as basketball-reference.com. There are many statistics that exist from primary sources; thus, WP:SECONDARY sources should be reference to demonstrate due WP:WEIGHT of statistics bring mentioned. I don't believe season totals for double-doubles, 20-point games, and 30-point games are commonly mentioned. Certain traditional statistics are standard, such as point and rebound averages, and reference to stat sites for those are sufficient.—Bagumba (talk) 17:44, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's an interesting issue. Should we -- especially for FA articles -- follow what is "commonly mentioned"? I'm not sure. What is common might not be what is best, and what we should strive for. Even if it is what is commonly mentioned in FA articles (that may be what Bagumba is saying; I'm not sure). We're always looking to improve. Then again -- I may personally have a more expansive view of what we should include. I know some people have a narrower view when it comes to infoboxes than I do, for example -- Tony included -- so I'll just raise this as my thought. Also, I can more easily see the desire to keep infobox size limited in this regard than text size, as long as the article is not over-long.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:02, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • By common, I mean giving it due weight. It's pushing POV if we over-emphasize statistics that are rarely mentioned with Howard, or for that matter, any player. Aside from Kevin Love going on some massive double-double streak, the statistic I believe is rarely mentioned with regards to an entire season. While most casual fans know averaging 20 points is good, it is not so clear what is a good percentage of double-doubles.—Bagumba (talk) 07:32, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose by Bagumba
    1. Per above my comments regarding balancing added sources for needed breadth of coverage while respecting WP:UNDUE with proper depth of coverage. Opportunities exist to summarize details where appropriate without needing to resort to removing content outright.
      1. I have exhausted his The New York Times archive and gone through a good chunk of his The Baltimore Sun archive. This is the cumulative additional breadth. It is about 4KB of content. It is most of what we can hope for. I will resume the Baltimore Sun review tomorrow.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 09:13, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        1. I have now expanded the text from 50551 characters of readable prose to 60148 characters. That is about 9.6KB of content. Of the 9.6KB of new content nearly 8.3 of it is Pro content. Here is diff Mostly from The New York Times, The Baltimore Sun, Houston Chronicle and Miami Herald. When the article was 50479, the ratio of Pro text to college plus high school was 26,988:(8,969 + 7,524)=1.636. I have beefed up that ratio to 35,240:(8,942 + 7,714)=2.116. This should satisfy your request that the article be much more broad.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:31, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          1. P.S. The New York Times, The Baltimore Sun and Houston Chronicle are newspaper archives I have used on many prior GAs ans FAs. I may be able to beef up other sections, I have to look into newspaper archives with which I am not familiar to do so.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:50, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    2. Too many references to a WP:PRIMARY-source statistics site, basketball-reference.com, to recreate Howard's professional career in lieu of analysis by WP:SECONDARY sources. This also resulted in repetitive season-by-season breakdowns on arbitrary statistics for double-doubles, 20-point, and 30-point games. Then there is minutia like "appearances had all come from off the bench and lasted between 7 minutes, 3 seconds and 7 minutes, 42 seconds" and analysis of games of "20 minutes".
      1. Statistical databases are considered WP:RS at FAC. That was established during my Tyrone Wheatley FAC nomination. I cited most 100-yard games of his career from a similar football database. 100-yard games in football are analogous to 20- and 30-point games in basketball. The FAC discussed this at length.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:59, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • The concern has nothing to do with sources not being reliable. The article overemphasizes statistics that were subjectively chosen by a WP editor, and not representative of ones mentioned in secondary sources. If other articles managed to be promoted to FA eschewing readily-available secondary sources for subjectively-chosen statistics from primary sources, I would suggest they are candidates for WP:FAR instead of propping WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS to maintain this article's status quo.—Bagumba (talk) 23:17, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    3. Season by season sections for High School and College career as opposed to sections for general era reflect a slight undue weight on those eras relative to his professional career, which is (correctly) grouped by eras of multiple years. Not every year is necessarily as important as another.
      1. I don't understand your point. I have divided 8000 character (high school and college) sections into 3 subsections. This is normal arrangement. They are subsectioned just to help the reader. I don't feel it would be helpful to the reader to undifferentiate the text by merging all the subsections.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:10, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    4. Cleanup needed for occasional name-dropping of tangentially related subjects. Some examples are Nike All-American Camp attendees, All-Big-Ten team, Bill Clinton, etc.
      1. I don't understand your name-dropping point. It is not very often that you play a basketball game and the President of the United States is in the stands rooting against you. Other attendees contextualizes the content for the reader. I am only summarizing secondary sources. I am not pulling this content from out of nowhere.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:18, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I usually wait for progress on issues before stating a position, but past instances at Howard's last FAC and this current FAC, compel me to state my current position and taking a break from this FAC. Best of luck.—Bagumba (talk) 20:07, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I still oppose based on my reasons already enumerated above. Contrary to the nominator's response to my point No. 1 above, the large quantity of text added recently does not address the WP:UNDUE text that should be condensed. It is not constructive for me to continue in light of the nominator's accusation of bad faith and the consistent tone of his subsequent responses in the thread below at 19:13, 2 March 2013 (UTC). I see no reason to withdraw my oppose as requested by the nominator below. Wikipedia operates on consensus, and I am just one opinion. The FAC director can determine the merits of the arguments.—Bagumba (talk) 08:07, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Epeefleche
  1. I would suggest breaking up one of the paragraphs in the lede, so that the lede has four paragraphs rather than the current three. Perhaps the first paragraph is the more natural one to break up.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:10, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I took a look at this issue. I think the first paragraph is a bit small to break up. The second details his amateur career and the third his professional career. Since it is speculated that he may go into coaching or management, we can leave room for a fourth paragraph on that subject and move his humanitarian stuff in with that when and if it occurs. I remain open to your suggestions otherwise.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:11, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    P.S. If I were to split any paragraph it would be the last, but don't see any natural split.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:20, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Not a major issue; just a subjective view. If nobody else feels it would be better as four para, I defer to your view here.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:11, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. If I run my "overlink" software, it suggests that we de-link Chicago. (Though not Illinois).--Epeefleche (talk) 23:17, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. In spans of years (e.g., 2000-02), I always if possible prefer deleting the first two digits in the second year. That is because those digits take up space while adding ZERO information. Repeatedly, in an article like this. That appears to be done in the text, which I applaud. But not in the infobox. I heard a couple of months ago that ... I believe it was a college basketball wikiproject ... likes the extra, needless digits in the infobox. Sort of anti-Strunk-and-White, I guess. Odd. But unless there is a wp consensus to include the needless digits, for an FA article I would urge their removal in the infobox as well.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:17, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    1. I have removed the extra characters from the infobox and section titles.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:49, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:35, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    This has been reverted twice: [en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Juwan_Howard&diff=543316789&oldid=543295245] and [3].--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:10, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Ridiculous -- the last revert lacked any edit summary, let alone a reason to include meaningless extra digits. I've reverted, pointing to this FA review. And our MOS clearly states: "sports seasons spanning two calendar years should be uniformly written as 2005–06 season". Perhaps others can keep an eye on such mindless revisions to the article.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:05, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. After reading the endless comments on this page (yes; I understand that I am part of the problem), and looking over the article for the 10th time, I think this finally now meets FA.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:05, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This random tweet says everything. So far could only note some inconsistency with refs, some being simple (244, 252), without author (259) or publisher (246). And I wonder if this is worth inclusion... igordebraga ≠ 21:39, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – I was hoping to offer a review here, as I promised the nominator, but the tone of the review above is stopping me in my tracks. I don't agree with everything said, but see the point about over-relying on Basketball-Reference for stats that may not be needed. If everything above gets resolved, feel free to ask for a re-review. Otherwise, I don't know if I want to commit the time to going through this long article again, with others at FAC that I want to review. It's a shame because I thought the article was pretty good when I went through it at the last FAC, but then what does my opinion mean? Giants2008 (Talk) 02:22, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is the 2nd or 3rd Juwan Howard FAC where you have gotten to the point where you said, I've taken a look and will wait until I see what others think. I personally don't feel the current opposes is in good faith. Because of who I am on WP a lot of people like to pick fights with me over stuff. It is like they want to challenge my intelligence or something. I endure a lot of borderline good faith interactions because of this. Much of his advice is counter to my vast encyclopedic experience on related subject matter. You can see above that I have added 9.6KB of content from 59 different unquestioned WP:RSs. Thus, the balance between database references and more standard references has shifted quite a bit. I hope you might come to your own conclusion at some point.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:13, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Tony, we've interacted in passing (I thought amicably) while editing sports articles. I rarely participate in FAs, and this is the first one of yours that I have reviewed and only because you canvassed me. I dont expect everyone to agree with me, and it appears FAs are not the best venue for the two of us to coexist. Please though, refrain from your good faith attacks. I do not know you well enough nor visa versa to understand your claim that "Because of who I am on WP a lot of people like to pick fights with me over stuff."—Bagumba (talk) 23:26, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • You are not the first person to bait me at FAC and leave a bad faith stinkbomb oppose and I never pursued your participation at FAC5. I had requested your involvement at FAC4.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:20, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Kindly refer to your request on my talk page less than half an hour after you nominated this fifth FAC. Let's simply agree to disagree on this article.—Bagumba (talk) 07:04, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • Does agreeing to disagree mean that you will remove your oppose from the page since you seems to be refusing to respond to my attempts to address them?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:10, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I will have a look through soon, though feel uncomfortable while a weighting issue appears unresolved, as I have not the familiarity with the topic to opine confidently on that. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The third sentence of the lead could do with an introductory clause such as, "He began his NBA career with/at...." as it is a bit confusing talking about the bullets straight after the heat.
How is it now?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is better. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:01, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
but no more than two seasons for any other team. leaves me scratching my head....not clear why contrastive "but" needed...maybe "plus shorter stints at several other teams"?
Changed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Early life section is a bit abrupt with some short sentences - I was about to join some when I thought that maybe some more facts or anecdotes if available might make this more engaging. If there really isn't much to add I'll have a go at massaging the prose.
Feel free to message the prose. There is not much to add.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:21, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok - I tried. I think it flows a little better now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:14, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The next three sections flow better, FWIW.
Thanks. I made one minor change.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:59, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He earned his only career (NBA All-Star Game) selection for the February 11, 1996 NBA All-Star Game. - I think we could remove the bracketed bit......?
Done.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:53, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
alternative works for me too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:04, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In the clinching moment of the series-clinching game, - try not to have the two adjectives the same - tweak one?
Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:54, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd make the Humanitarianism a subsection of the Personal section..
Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:52, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • closing comment - I think the article now is in pretty good shape prose-wise and possibly comprehensiveness-wise and I am tempted to support on that, but I am a bit concerned that there are two books listed on google books about Howard and they haven't been used. On the one hand I suspect the material in them would mostly approximate what we have here...but they might have had some analysis or research which was not newsworthy per se but encyclopedia-worthy...I don't know. Happy for input on this....Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:12, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    1. "Sports great Juwan Howard" (1999, ISBN 0766010651) by Jeff Savage is listed in Juvenile literature by the Chicago Public Library--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:50, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    2. "Juwan Howard" (1997, ISBN 0791045757) by Sandra Stotksy & Ron Sirak is not carried by the Chicago Public Library, indicating its insignficance.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:50, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, missed the juvenile literature bit - ok, tentative support on prose and comprehensiveness. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:05, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment
    • " At Michigan he was part of the Fab Five recruiting class of 1991 that reached the finals of the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Men's Division I Basketball Championship in 1992 and 1993. He won his first NBA championship with Miami in the 2012 NBA Finals. Howard was an All-American center and an honors student at Chicago Vocational Career Academy. Michigan was able to sign him early over numerous competing offers and then convince others in his recruiting class to join him. The Fab Five, which included Chris Webber, Jalen Rose, Jimmy King and Ray Jackson, helped Michigan reach the NCAA finals in 1992 and 1993" -- avoid repeating stuff in the lead?
    • In the "Early life" section, the placement of the references appear random. Chensiyuan (talk) 03:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I do not understand this point. They are following punctuation marks (usually at the end of sentences) as they are throughout the article. Are their certain facts that do not seem to be followed by the appropriate reference?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – I'm probably more divided mentally by this article than I have ever been at FAC. On the one hand, I see the point about overuse of statistics and think that a few of the less significant stats from later in Howard's NBA career (when he saw less playing time) could be cut without taking away from comprehensiveness. On the other hand, we don't require that an article be perfect, only that it meet the FA criteria. Do I think this article is perfect? No; it is a long read and I'm sure that some of the stats could be condensed as Bagumba suggested. The question that is more pertinent here is whether the FA criteria are met. After thinking about it, I'm inclined to think that they are. I recall the prose being okay after copy-editing at the last FAC, and Cas has reassured me there; as for the source he pointed out, that one is also a juvenile book according to Google Books, and I wouldn't consider a juvenile biography to be a high-quality reliable source. The stats are emphasized more than I would like, but I don't think that is a deal-breaker in this case. I'll continue to keep an eye on this FAC for compelling arguments in either direction. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:26, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I have veered on the side of a tentative good-faith support is that generally sport records are pretty structured and it is straightforward to cover what needs to be covered for someone's sports career. Furthermore, if there is a genuine dilemma on how to portray someone between hagiography on the one hand and critique on the other, i sorta feel it is safer by default to lean to the former. I don't get the feeling from reading this article that there is alot of interpretation but do agree that using alot of primary sources certainly carries this risk. Anyway, Giants2008 sums up my feelings well, and I will keep an eye out for issues that others might notice. I've seen the exchange above and will try to chase the link above too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:14, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"sport records are pretty structured": I don't mind statistics that are commonly mentioned in secondary sources being sourced easily from a primary source. It is not my intention to create work for the sake of work. My objection is to statistics such as double-double being regularly mentioned on a per-season basis, when it is not commonly used in secondary sources to assess a player's season performance. This would be akin to an editor mining financial data taken from a company annual report that is not generally discussed in secondary sources, or extracting arcane facts from a grand jury report that are not discussed in the news. With the wealth of statistics being tracked these days on the web, we need to be discerning about which statistics an FA article presents. PRIMARY and SECONDARY under the WP:NOR policy provides that guidance.—Bagumba (talk) 16:42, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Bag. Its always a changing landscape when it comes to these things in sports, I think. My sense differs from yours -- I find "double-double" appears quite a bit in the media. You might take a glance through some of the 4.2 million ghits, 35,000 gnews hits, and 2,250 gbooks hits, and see if the common usage you see there allays some of your concern.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:00, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Epeefleche. I'm not contending that "double-double" is not used in basketball; it's mostly used in game coverage or describing a streak; I rarely see it used as a raw number in describing an entire season. This article for Tim Duncan mentions his 58 in his MVP season, but puts it into context with "including a league-high six 20-plus point and 20-plus rebound outings". Whereas 20pts is a good scoring average, 10 is good for rebound and assists, etc. there is not a general notion of how many double-doubles is a "good" number, and likely is why it's not mentioned often in secondary sources when describing a season. WP:NOTSTATSBOOK says "articles should contain sufficient explanatory text to put statistics within the article in their proper context for a general reader." In this case, the average basketball fan—let alone general reader—cannot put Howard's season double-double totals into context. I think it could be justified if it was at least on his "leaderboard" at basketball-reference.com, but it's not.—Bagumba (talk) 08:04, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK. Sources and authors provided. Mostly CC Flickr images, checking their upload history shows no obvious signs of problems regarding image source and flickr uploader - OK. GermanJoe (talk) 11:24, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Tentative support - Please understand that I know almost nothing about basketball, but I was asked, so here I am. I've read both this very long article and the comments in FAC5, which is what makes me tentatively support it. I think that the prose is good, with a few minor problems here and there, which I'll discuss below. (If I'm repeating already-resolved issues, please excuse me; I'm coming late to the party. Just explain that it's already been addressed, and I'll be fine.) I'm kinda surprised no one has made the suggestion I'm about to make yet, or perhaps they did, in one of the previous FACs or here and I've missed it. Would it be feasible to fork some of the content here and create new articles, a la High school basketball career of Juwan Howard or College basketball career of Juwan Howard or Professional basketball career of Juwan Howard? Please feel free to shoot down my suggestion as ridiculous, especially if articles like this tend to be long like this one. Your response, by no means, won't change my support to an oppose. I also find Tony's responses here satisfactory, well-reasoned, and acceptable. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:13, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The article currently stands at 62347 characters (10233 words) of readable prose. Forking does begin to become a consideration above 60KB and necessary up around 100KB. In this case, the high school content (9435 characters) and college content (7814 characters) are not sufficiently overwhelming to necessitate a fork. Not too many articles really get forked at 60KB, but that is where you should start. When something like Jabari Parker gets to 60KB it will be necessary to fork over 40KB of high school content, but in this case there is not that much high school or college content. See WP:SIZE and WP:SPLIT.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:41, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Then I wonder if you should combine the high school/college content into a forked article, like Pre-professional basketball career of Juwan Howard? Would that work? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:58, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)We are talking about 17249KB h.s. and college content. Given how famous his college years were, I don't think 7.8 KB is too much. The only question is whether the 9.4KB of H.S. content is more than someone would want to see. There is a consideration that people are not use to seeing that much H.S. content. I would go with High school basketball career of Juwan Howard before anything. I would have to reread SPLIT and SIZE, but I was not leaning in that direction. I have not seen an athlete with a High school career split before. Have you seen one?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:12, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. I don't know if you are aware that the typical WP:NBA FA only has the amount of high school content contained in the first paragraph of this article. I have no intention of forking to prune it that far back.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, I haven't seen a split h.s. career article, but as I said before, I'm not familiar with these kinds of articles. However, as my mother used to say, just because something hasn't been done before doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. I know, depending on the type of article, that there are times when they need to be long. As you know, the danger with a long article is that it isn't accessible, and I fear that's the main problem with this one. No other reviewer has seemed to have an issue with the length, so I'll bow to consensus and accept your response, although I suspect the reason you haven't gotten the support you need is that its length has scared reviewers. Personally, I would fork it.
I do think article size is an issue; it takes forever just to save an edit, let alone read the whole thing. However, I can't support the idea of a spinout article. If we were talking about a player of Michael Jordan's caliber, then spinouts could be justified, but Howard simply isn't that important. Though enough material is probably available, most of it wouldn't pass WP:NOTNEWS. I think it would be better to focus on trimming non-essential details and sharpening the language. For example, be more selective when mentioning awards and statistics. Zagalejo^^^ 00:09, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here is my thinking on size: First, between 60 and 100 KB is the range where an article is suppose to be evaluated for splitting/trimming. This article currently stands at 61981 characters. We have a very good reviewer who seems to be challenging the writing in a way that is helping to sharpen it. Let's just see where it goes under the current scrutiny.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 07:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Second, I believe that going forward, 21st century athlete bios should include high school and college content to reach FA. It is out there, especially if your early years are post internet. Even in the case like Howard, it is out there. The question is what proportion of an article should be early life. In this case, we have slightly more than 25% of a full length (60-100KB) bio. For a person who was part of as fabled a college team as this guy, I am not convinced that 25% is inappropriate. I believe that all 5 current FA bios have too small a proportion of pre-professional content.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 07:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is acceptable to me. I agree that an article about an athlete like Howard needs to have both his h.s. and college careers. I also agree that this article could be much tighter, and perhaps that could help shorter it significantly. Tony, don't be ashamed if this FAC fails; this is a complicated and groundbreaking article, so there's nothing wrong with it getting the time it needs to be FA-quality. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:05, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

Actually, I think that the fact that she kept her baby in a drawer signifies that she was ill-prepared. You state her young age in the next sentence, so I'd just remove the description here.
  • The 17 year old Helena... There should be a hyphen between "year" and "old". Perhaps "Helena, who was 17 years old..." might be better.
  • ...but his grandmother decided otherwise has a different meaning than I suspect you mean. [4] How about: "rejected it, insisting on Juwan Antonio"?
  • He moved with her to several low-income Chicago South Side projects as she kept him out of trouble and away from gangs as he was growing up. Too many "as". How about separating the two sentences with a semi-colon: "He moved with her to several low-income Chicago South Side projects; she kept him out of trouble and away from gangs as he was growing up."
  • One of the places that they called home... Unencyclopedic. How about: "One of their residences was..."

High school

  • ...necessitating that the team dress for games in a history class. You tend to put phrases and clauses together in awkward ways. How about this: "...which required that the team dress..."
  • I don't think you need the introductory part about Howard's grandmother and her death her. It sounds like all this happened before his freshman year, and then I read later on that she cooked everyone a soul food dinner during his senior year. I suggest that you put this information where it happened.
  • At this camp, Howard established himself as one of the best junior-year big men in the country despite having his shots blocked several times by the much taller Bradley. Awkward wording; how about: "At this camp, even though the much-taller Bradley blocked his shots several times, Howard established himself as one of the best junior-year big men in the country."
  • I think you need to re-write the rest of this paragraph. It's too dependent on quotes, and much of the information isn't really necessary. I think it's enough if you just say Howard was accused of stealing shoes, he denied it, and had to leave the camp early. Of course, if you give me good reasons why it should remain, I'll accept it.
Good solution. My own practice is when there are lots of refs and more than three explanatory notes, I create a separate "Footnotes" section, a la WP:REFGROUP. I don't know about you, but if an explanatory note doesn't look like the refs, I miss it and don't get the information.
  • According to Chicago Sun-Times writers, during the camp, he became ranked as one of the top 10 underclassmen in the country. More awkward phrases. How about: "According to the Chicago Sun-Times, he was ranked as one of the top-10 underclassmen in the country during the camp."
  • Howard attended other camps that summer and had a goal of surpassing Thomas, the reigning Chicago Tribune basketball player of the year,[18] as the best big man in the state. More awkwardness. How about: "Howard attended other camps that summer; his goal was to overcome Thomas, who was the reigning Chicago Tribune basketball player of the year,[18] as the best big man in the state." Did he reach that goal? Either way, you should tell us.
Ok, that's fine, as are the other changes you made. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll stop here. I'll be back, either later today or tomorrow. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

High school (cont.)

  • Taylor Bell of the Chicago Sun-Times noted that Howard was said to be leaning toward playing for DePaul or, because of his admiration for Thomas, the Illinois Fighting Illini, whom Thomas had chosen to play for in 1989.[20] Too long and awkward. How about: "Taylor Bell of the Chicago Sun-Times noted that Howard was leaning toward playing either for DePaul or for the Illinois Fighting Illini because Thomas, whom Howard admired, had been a member of the team in 1989."
  • During Michigan's in-home visit, Ms. Howard treated Michigan head coach Steve Fisher, his assistants Mike Boyd and Brian Dutcher, Vocational coach Cook, Vocational assistant coach Donnie Kirskey, Lois Howard (Juwan's Aunt) and Juwan to a soul food dinner. You're running into the problem of having to write about lots of people, some of them related to each other. As a result, it's a little hard to keep them all straight. Some of that is unavoidable. This is my suggestion: "During Michigan's in-home visit, Howard's grandmother treated Michigan head coach Steve Fisher, his assistants Mike Boyd and Brian Dutcher, Vocational coach Cook, Vocational assistant coach Donnie Kirskey, Lois Howard (Howard's aunt) and Howard to a soul food dinner." Also, is it necessary to list everyone? This is just a suggestion: I wonder if it'd be better to just state that the guests included Fisher, several other Michigan coaches, the aunt, and Howard.
  • Dutcher served as the main contact person... As a non-basketball fan, I don't know what this means. Remember, not everyone who reads this knows the subject, so please explain. How about not even using the phrase, like this: "Dutcher was given the responsibility to contact Howard, which he did, several times a week."
  • While other coaches, such as Lute Olsen, almost ignored her during the recruiting, Dutcher understood that she was the key influence on his life. Nonetheless, he understood Kirskey had sway too and got Fisher to hire him for a summer basketball camp that served as Juwan's introduction to Ann Arbor, Michigan. Unencyclopedic and awkward. I suggest that you connect the ideas and re-word it: "While other coaches, such as Lute Olsen, almost ignored her during the recruiting, Dutcher understood that she was the key influence on his life, and understood that Kirskey also had sway with Howard. He encouraged Fisher to hire Howard for a summer basketball camp, which became the young athlete's introduction to Ann Arbor, Michigan."
  • I think you should separate the 2nd paragraph, right after Howard moved in with Cook, since the discussion about his decision of which school to sign with is a different topic than his stats that year.
  • He had become friends with Jimmy King when they visited Michigan on the same weekend and is said by Chicago Tribune journalists and Michigan head coach Fisher to have influenced King's decision to enroll there. More awkwardness. You've already mentioned Fisher, so you don't have to identify him again. How about: "He befriended Jimmy King when they visited Michigan on the same weekend; according to the Chicago Tribune and Fisher, Howard influenced King's decision to also enroll there."
  • According to Clyde Travis of the Chicago Sun-Times, Howard's verbal commitment made up for the inability of Fisher to recruit Eric Montross the prior year... How about: "According to Clyde Travis of the Chicago Sun-Times, Howard's verbal commitment made up for Fisher's failure to recruit Eric Montross the prior year..."
  • West MVP Webber posted 28 points and 12 rebounds in the game, and Howard added 16 points as the West won 108–106. I think that using "as", although technically accurate, in this way (other than "same" or "alike") is confusing. Take or leave this suggestion: "West MVP Webber posted 28 points and 12 rebounds in the game; although Howard added 16 points, the West won 108–106."
  • I don't think you need to state when things are announced. It's enough to state that he earned a high SAT score.

Sorry, I have to stop again. I'd think that after five FACs, the prose would've been tighter. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:54, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, except for a short late break from RL, I was inactive today. I attended Jabari Parker's IHSA championship game. It is a 2.5 hour drive each way to Peoria, IL. I'll spend some time with this tomorrow.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If you are interested in just stepping in and editing the article, go right ahead. Otherwise, I look forward to more comments.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:55, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, that probably was a little harsh. As my review has progressed, I'm finding fewer things to complain about. I also have gained a better understanding of an article like this. Let's move forward, shall we? ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

College career

  • He was also united with future NBA personalities... Awkward. How about: "He also joined future NBA personalities..."
  • It takes you 4 sentences to introduce the team with th"e link to its article. I wonder if you could put it earlier, like this: "...joined his fellow freshmen in forming a group on his team, the 1991–92 Michigan Wolverines" Then you could change this sentence to: "Early in his freshman season for the highly rated Wolverines, Howard started in some games and came off the bench in others."
  • ...was soon substituted out as the entire team dealt with an accumulation of fouls. There's that word "as" again. ;) I need clarification; do you mean that Howard was substituted out because of the fouls, or while they were dealing with the fouls? This demonstrates the problem with the word! Do you mean "because" or "while"?
  • Since Jannie Mae Howard had been born on Christmas, Howard got a tattoo reading Jannie Mae over his heart during Christmas break. You should remove the repetition here. Was she born on Dec. 25? If so, you can state: "Since his grandmother had been born on December 25, Howard got a tattoo reading "Jannie Mae" over his heart during Christmas break."
  • During the season, Howard had a case of the chicken pox in January. More encyclopedic: "During the season, Howard contracted chicken pox in January."
  • Michigan found itself with a 21–6 (13–4 Big Ten) record... Is it correct that state that a team "found itself"? How about: "Michigan had a 21–6 (13–4 Big Ten) record.."
  • Howard helped Michigan survive with a 78–74 overtime victory... Similar question: Is this basketball-speak? If so, please disregard. If not, perhaps you can state that he helped them "to a" victory.
  • Howard earned the regional MVP award with a game-high 30 points and 13 rebounds in the Elite Eight round, despite collecting two fouls in the first two minutes and being on the losing end against an Arkansas team that had United States President Bill Clinton as a vocal supporter in attendance. More awkwardness and too long. How about: "Howard earned the regional MVP award with a game-high 30 points and 13 rebounds in the Elite Eight round, despite collecting two fouls in the first two minutes and losing against the Razorbacks, which had U.S. President Bill Clinton in attendance as a vocal supporter."
  • 37 credit hours short of University of Michigan requirements at the time of his announcement, Howard said he would keep his promise to his grandmother that he would get his college degree. It's not a good idea to start sentences with a number as the subject. How about: "Howard was 37 credit hours short of University of Michigan degree requirements, but said he intended to keep his promise to his grandmother that he would earn his diploma."
  • Although the Fab Five's games in the Final Four have been forfeited, Howard was not among the players (including Robert Traylor, Webber, Rose, Maurice Taylor, and Louis Bullock) called before a grand jury to testify in the University of Michigan basketball scandal and was not found to have received large amounts of money. Most Michigan Wolverines men's basketball records and accomplishments from 1992 to 1998 have been forfeited because of NCAA sanctions stemming from the scandal, but Howard's status as a 1993–94 All-American has not been. Long, awkward, and mixed tenses. Were their games forfeited at the time of the grand jury? I ask because it that's so, you could say, "have since been forfeited" to solve the conflict in tenses. Did the list of players testify? If so, it's better to say, "Howard was not among the players, which included Robert Traylor, Webber, Rose, Maurice Taylor, and Louis Bullock)..." Then I'd end the sentence after the word "scandal". Did the grand jury find that Howard didn't receive large amounts of money? Perhaps, instead of putting it that way, you could state that the grand jury failed to find him complacent in the scandal. Then I'd do this: "Although the NCAA sanctioned Michigan Wolverines men's basketball by forfeiting its records and accomplishments from 1992 to 1998, Howard's status as a 1993–94 All-American remained intact." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Scouting report

  • Is it customary to include so many quotes in a section like this? If not, are they all necessary? I'll acquiesce to your judgment on this one.
  • "In 2000–01 with Dallas...": I'm sorry, but I don't know what Dallas is referring to--a writer, or a team?
I changed it slightly, "As a Dallas player in 2000-2001..." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Michael Jordan loved: Unencyclopedic. How about saying that he "praised"?
  • By 2001, though, Lacy J. Banks from his hometown Chicago Sun-Times regarded him as a high-priced, under-achieving player. In 2002, he was described by the same journalist as a solid veteran at the four (power forward position). I almost literally have to ban connectors like "though", "however", and "nonetheless" from my encyclopedic writing; they're really unnecessary. How about: "By 2001, Lacy J. Banks from the Chicago Sun-Times regarded him as a high-priced, under-achieving player, but in 2002, Banks described him as a solid veteran at the four (power forward position)."

'Washington Bullets era

  • He continued to train in Chicago in late September while rumors swirled that... How about: "amidst rumors that"
  • Another rumor had Howard being packaged... Is there any way we can give attribution to these rumors? I understand that's not always possible. Perhaps this: "According to another rumor, Howard might have been packaged..."
Yah, looking at it now, I think you're right. Since there's no direct attribution to the rumor, I can't think of a better way, so I reverted it back to the original. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I may have to do this in spurts for the next few days. Please be patient with me. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:32, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wash. Bullets (cont.)

  • The team endured 317 man-games of injury, and finished with a 21–61 record. Is "man-games of injury" more b-ball speak? Even so, I think that you should add a phrase to explain it. I also think that you should add "finished the season", if that's what you mean, of course.
  • I think that the paragraph about Howard's graduation is off chronologically, so I'm taking it upon myself to re-structure and copy-edit it. If you don't like it, go ahead and change it back. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wash. Wizards era

  • ...there were rumors that Webber had difficulty adjusting to being less of a primary option in the presence of All-Star Howard. What does "primary option" mean? Was he having difficulty being compared to Howard, or did he have issues with not being such an important part of the team? I also think you could cut "All-star".
  • You can cut As the preseason continued', since you mention the preseason at the end of the sentence.
  • I'm restructuring the 3rd paragraph, for the same reason I did it above. Question, though: You state that the lawyers for both parties had different stories, but later on you say that Reed couldn't afford one. Which is it? If the sources are contradictory, I'd remove the 2nd sentence now that it's separated from Howard's lawyer's claims.
    • Remember all that "You have the right to remain silent...if you can not afford a lawyer, one will be provided" stuff. Don't you watch any cop shows.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:50, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also source says "Reed did not show up for the proceeding and failed to respond to the lawsuit. She didn't have any money to hire a lawyer in Maryland, lawyer Ned Collier, who represents Reed in Connecticut but is not licensed to practice in Maryland, said during a telephone interview."
  • Who struck and restrained her? I think you could just state that she was struck and restrained.
  • When was Webber traded? I wonder if you could put that sentence in a note, add the date, and state that it happened shortly before the case was resolved.
    • I don't think it should be in a note. This is a long article and people are not going to be looking at notes for more content.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:00, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • By his sixth season, Howard had become unpopular and a bit of a disappointment in Washington, according to Sam Smith from the Chicago Tribune. It's not a good idea to begin sentences with a preposition. How about: "According to Sam Smith from the Chicago Tribune, Howard had become unpopular and a disappointment by his sixth season in Washington."
  • ...going to the New York Knicks in exchange for Patrick Ewing with the thinking that the trade would better position the Wizards for the 2001 free agent market. Instead of "with the thinking", a less awkward way to word this could be: "because the team [or whomever makes those decisions] thought that the trade..."
  • Five years removed from his only All-Star appearance, Howard was nonetheless the fourth-highest-paid player in the NBA... How a about: "Although it had been five years since his only All-Star appearance, Howard was the fourth-highest-paid player in the NBA..."
  • Along with Strickland and Richmond, Howard was one of the three marquee names on the team that each was under contract to earn at least $10 million. How about: "Howard, along with Strickland and Richmond, were marquee names on the team under contract to earn at least $10 million."
  • According to Milton Kent of The Baltimore Sun, not only did Howard's statistics (approximately 18 points, 7 rebounds and 2.8 assists) compare favorably to both players, his role as his team's primary scoring option made his statistics more significant than those of the two alternative choices. Notice I've copyedited this sentence. My issue with it, though, is that even though you separate the alternates, I don't know who "both players" are. They could be the two alternates. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:35, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Houston Rockets era

  • Notice that I've just resorted to copy-editing, since you seem okay with my changes up to now. Please change if you disagree.
  • What do you think about breaking the 1st long paragraph, after "before the trade deadline in February."?
    • O.K., but it makes the this section that covers three seasons take four paragraphs. I'm not sure if that will confuse the readers.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:42, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Don't underestimate your readers, even those of us who know nothing about basketball. I think it works because the first paragraph is sort of an introduction to Howard's time with the Rockets. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:13, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Once the playoffs began, Howard was in a role as a key reserve on the Rockets' short bench rotation... Did Howard have this role at the beginning of the playoffs (which is what this implies), or throughout them? Is is b-ball speak to say he was "in a role as a key reserve"? If not, perhaps we can say, "Howard served as a key reserve".

2007-10: Howard made it clear he was not interested in being part of a youth movement in Minnesota and consequently requested a trade once Garnett had been dealt. More b-ball speak? What does "being part of a youth movement" and "once Garnett had been dealt" mean?

Miami Heat era

  • By joining the Heat, Howard joined a team that by the time of the 2011 NBA playoffs, included former champion Dwyane Wade as well as a group of players such as LeBron James and Chris Bosh who had not won an NBA championship despite numerous All-Star game selections. In order to resolve beginning the sentence with a preposition, I need to ask. Are you saying that the Heat hadn't won a championship or James and Bosh? That's a little unclear. I'm not sure that "by the time of the 2011 playoffs" is necessary; it may be enough that it happened (or hadn't) at the time Howard signed with the Heat.
I think that the current wording is fine, even with the preposition. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:13, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You identify The Fab Five as a documentary, but you don't state what it was about. I think it needs more identifying information, like "which was about his time as a Wolverine..."
  • Did the altercation he was fined for occur during a game? Was his ejection connected to the fine? That's a bit unclear.
    • The article currently says he was ejected, so it had to be during the game. There are two pretty good inline sources. I am not sure what the confusion is.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:20, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The confusion is with me, sorry. Remember what I said about not underestimating your readers' intelligence? It obviously doesn't apply to me. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:13, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the season, Howard played 57 games... What season? Up to now, you've linked season years with articles; is there one for this season?
  • ...by stopping situations from escalating to the point of unfavorable actions. Notice that I tweaked this sentence a little. What do you mean by "unfavorable actions"? Were there potential other fines and ejections?
    • Here is the quote from the ref "More often, Howard stood as the body of reason — getting between Dwyane Wade and Spoelstra against Indiana in Game 3 of the second round, pulling Mario Chalmers away from Oklahoma City star Kevin Durant."--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:14, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I like that quote, and although it goes against my goal of helping this article get shorter, how about: "Despite this incident, Howard was a maturing influence on the team during the playoffs; according to David Neal of The Miami Herald, [insert quote]." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:13, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
added quote.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:13, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...Howard was on the court as had been planned by the three stars of the Heat (James, Wade and Bosh). So these players set it up so that Howard would play during the winning game? If so, how about: "Howard was on the court as time expired in the series-clinching game because the three stars of the Heat (James, Wade and Bosh) had arranged it." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:00, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Personal

  • 1st sentence: You don't need that he still owns; if you want to include the information, you can say "that as of 2013, he had not sold"
  • He committed to play for the Western Michigan Broncos men's basketball team, for whom he played his freshman season before deciding to transfer to the University of Detroit Mercy Titans. Do you need to say that Howard, Jr. had "committed to play"? Couldn't you just say that he he played for W. Mich. for his freshman season? "Before deciding" is also too wordy; I'd cut it and say, "and transferred to..."
  • I understand why you're naming Howard's first son, but I suggest that you remove his younger children's names, and just state their ages, as per WP:BLPNAME. And why is it important to state Howard's age and the age of his wife when they married?
    • That policy applies to controversy. Otherwise, children's names when uncontroversial and part of uncontroversial biographies are considered encyclopedic for any biography.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:23, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even though it'd be a short paragraph, I think you should make a break after "Usher", to differentiate Howard's past efforts with his on-going ones, and to deal with the tenses conflict.
  • His foundation partners with the Chicago Public Schools (CPS) to reach 30,000 kids annually for a reading challenge; the top 300 readers in the challenge get to attend his basketball camp. By partnering with the Juwan Howard Foundation, CPS, Jordan Brand, Dell Computers, EMI Music, Vitamin Water and the NBA, he is able to maintain the camp at no charge to participants. I think you should introduce his camp first. How about: "He runs a yearly free basketball camp for youth, which is made possible by a partnership between the Juwan Howard Foundation and CPS, Jordan Brand, Dell Computers, EMI Music, Vitamin Water and the NBA. His foundation partners with the Chicago Public Schools (CPS) for a reading challenge; the top 300 readers, out of 30,000 annually, attend his camp.
  • During and after his time as a member of the Heat, Howard was active in South Florida community outreach, fundraising and humanitarian efforts. I think this sentence belongs better earlier in the paragraph, with his past activities. It should also be restructured, like this: "Howard was active in South Florida community outreach, fundraising and humanitarian efforts while he was a member of the Heat and afterwards." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:13, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • How should this be phrased now that he is playing with the Heat again? "Howard was active in South Florida community outreach, fundraising and humanitarian efforts while he was a member of the Heat, after he became a free agent and presumably continues after rejoining the team."--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:21, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Film and television appearances

  • I don't think you need so much detail regarding Howard's storyline. You could just say that he played a former basketball player who served on Bartlett's Council on Fitness and helped him win a game against his staff. That way, you can avoid having to use the IMDB ref.
    • I believe IMDb refs the episode name and character name. Although unreliable for biographical information, it is fairly reliable for those details. I have edited somewhat though along the lines you suggested.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:47, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I get your notes about the non-RS for your refs. I assume that this has been addressed by other reviewers.
  • Who was working on the album, Howard or Ross? If Ross, you could say: "...on Ross' album Full Court Press Volume 1".

Support, with the assumption that these final issues will be addressed as they have been up to now. I'm satisfied with how the issues in this FAC have been explained by Tony. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break[edit]

About Ohconfucius recent changes: User:Ohconfucius recently made a number of changes to the page [5], and while some of them may be desirable, a number of them seem detrimental, so I've reverted them for now. My concerns:

  • The changes to the NBA year templates produced factual errors - for example, the dates displayed for Howard's tenure with the Orlando Magic were presented incorrectly. (Admittedly, the template is pretty confusing to use.) I'm not going to argue one way or another in terms of how to display the dates; all I care about is that the dates are correct.
  • Zag -- Given that you are not arguing one way or the other in terms of how to display dates, I wonder if you can revert your change which resulted in dates being displayed in conflict with MOS. Specifically, MOS:DATE indicates that the format should be 2010-11 (rather than 2010-2011). That, at least, was in accord with MOS in Oh's version. Your broadside revert changed it to a non-MOS-compliant state (without you meaning to register a view).
It's not just MOS. And common sense. Look at 2011-12 (1.39 billion ghits) vs. 2011-2012 (363 million ghits). As you can see from the ghits, the approach excluding the extra digits (which impart zero info to the reader, and just take up time and space) is standard. If you search NBA.com, the official basketball website for the NBA, you will see that 2011-12 is also the preferred approach (13,500 hits vs. 3,700 hits). If you search the Euroleague basketball site, the same (more than 3-1).--Epeefleche (talk) 05:43, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, I don't care either way, but right now, I'm trying to do a few different things at once, so I'm not going to do it this second. Feel free to change things yourself (to the version before BeastFromDaEast got involved.) Zagalejo^^^ 05:53, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I went back to your version. Zagalejo^^^ 06:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:03, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changing "freshman" and "sophomore" to "first year" and "second year", while leaving mentions of "junior" and "senior" intact, results in an odd mishmash that will be confusing for everyone. I realize that not all people are familiar with terms like freshman and sophomore, but there are better ways to address that concern.
  • Changing capitalization and punctuation within newspaper article titles to conform to Wikipedia's own MOS doesn't seem appropriate. Is this common practice? Shouldn't we leave the reference titles as they are? Changing single quotation marks to double quotation marks is something that could possibly alter search results if one wanted to track down a specific article. Zagalejo^^^ 05:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking at this again, I was misreading a few things. I don't think any single quotation marks were changed to double quotation marks. So never mind that part. Zagalejo^^^ 06:16, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for so carefully considering the changes I made. In response to your points:
  1. I was actually trying to correct the form but accidentally messed up the years, and I most sincerely apologise. But I hope you see what I was doing. I also now realise upon studying the year links that Howard may have changed teams in the middle of several of the seasons (if my reading of the infobox data is correct), so that accounts for some of my error; the other was due to my understanding of the template output. However, I still believe that the text as displayed as you had left it is not compliant with WP:YEAR, so that remains to be addressed. I do have another concern about these season links in the infoboxes: by linking to the first and last seasons in any event, it seems that we may be implying all the intervening years, if any, don't exist; or it may imply that there is something ground-breaking in each of his moves. I think it's best if we didn't link to the 'generic' year in NBL articles in the infobox.
  • As I said, I don't have strong feelings about the date formatting, so I'll let others talk things out. Zagalejo^^^ 17:34, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The use of big words where little ones do better is just plain silly as they push up cultural–linguistic barriers. I changed 'freshman year' and 'sophomore year' to 'first year' and 'second year' respectively because the former terms are a barrier to universal comprehension. They are used widely in the US, but almost nowhere else. I did not change 'junior' or 'senior' because these are more generic words that can be parsed in their context without resorting to a dictionary or a gloss.
  • Well, think of it this way. For the vast majority of readers, "freshman" and "sophomore" are the most natural words in that context. Americans wouldn't think of them as "big words" at all. Mixing "first year" and "second year" with "junior" and "senior" is going to look awkward to them, and people are going to keep trying to change things back. Again, I recognize that not everyone in the world uses words like "freshman" and "sophomore", but realistically speaking, that won't be a problem for most readers to this article. If you live outside the US, and run into a situation where you want to know more about Juwan Howard, you probably already know a little bit about basketball and the American education system. Zagalejo^^^ 17:34, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. My capitalisation changes, in line with our MOS, are minor typographical changes as to their effect on titles. No spelling changes were introduced. No punctuation was removed or inserted although I did swap some non-compliant single quote marks with compliant ones (note that there was actually one instance where the title had a compliant one and a non-compliant one). Search engines are not sensitive to capitalisation or the style of single quotes used, so my changes will not affect the result of any search should those terms be copied to the search window.
  • Yes, I eventually figured out what was going on with the quote marks, and I think I changed everything back. I still don't see the need for changing the capitalization, though. Zagalejo^^^ 17:34, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the way you addressed the display of the years in the infobox is satisfactory as far as my WP:YEAR concerns go. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 06:42, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MOS discussion regarding linked NBA seasons in infobox[edit]

Please be aware of this discussion at MOS: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Years; reverts. This discussion grew out of this feature article review for Juwan Howard. Before jumping into the discussion, I suggest that you read the relevant MOS section, MOS:YEAR. As I'm sure you can see, this has the potential to significantly change the currently used year span conventions used in this article, but in all NBA, MLB, NHL, NFL, and soccer player infoboxes. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comments[edit]

  • Regarding the MOS discussion mentioned, if a resolution occurs before the FAC closes, well and good; if not, the resolution can be applied to this article after the FAC closes, as necessary.
  • Having stepped through the above review comments, while the solitary oppose has reasonable grounds, it seems to me that effort has been made to address those concerns, and a decent number and range of reviewers have since indicated that they believe the article meets the criteria, so at this stage promotion is looking the likely outcome.
  • In the meantime, Tony, there are many duplicate links, including two in the lead; some might be justified owing to the amount of text between them in a large article but all need to be reviewed -- you know the script to check 'em?

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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