Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Len Deighton/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by FrB.TG via FACBot (talk) 11 November 2023 [1].

Len Deighton[edit]

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 13:04, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Len Deighton is one of those authors who you wish would publish more (he's in his mid-90s and hasn't published a novel since the mid-1990s, so it's unlikely he'll start up again now). Best known for The IPCRESS File and his trilogy of trilogies Game, Set and Match; Hook, Line and Sinker; and Faith, Hope and Charity, he's also published several cookery books and works of history, particularly military history. For all that, he's a private person who gives very few interviews and about whom not much is known. Still, I've covered what there is to be found about him. Any comments are welcome. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 13:04, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review. How exciting. Placeholder. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:43, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Does "beef bourguignon" Have two upper-case Bs?
  • A depressing lack of images. Nothing to be done about that?
  • Nothing that I know of. He's still alive (thankfully), so we can't use an image of him, but I'll have a look to see if there is anything else we can out in there. - SchroCat (talk) 20:24, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I recall from the distant past seeing a photograph from the 1960s [?] showing Deighton chatting with senior Luftwaffe veterans, including Galland and - I think - Fink. I cannot now find it and we probably couldn't use it anyway. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:12, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly not: as he's still alive we can't use non-free images of him. - SchroCat (talk) 12:34, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "works on history and military history". I believe you of course, but cannot offhand think of any non-military-history history he has written.
  • He did one on Kennedy's assassination and Airshipwreck - a history of the commercial dirigible up to the Hindenburg disaster. - SchroCat (talk) 20:24, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. I vaguely recall reading the latter, long, long ago. Never heard of the former, is it any good?
Never managed to get hold of it. It's something of a rarity, so maybe when I have a couple of hours to kill and I'm up near the British Library I'll have a look over it. - SchroCat (talk) 08:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He had several jobs before becoming a book and magazine illustrator—including designing the cover for first UK edition of Jack Kerouac's 1957 work On the Road." So designing a book cover was prior to "becoming a book and magazine illustrator"?

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:56, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Gog - looking forward to it. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:31, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1967 Deighton was successfully sued for libel over his London Dossier. In 1968 he was sued by David Stirling who led Operation Bigamy in 1942 over at article Deighton wrote about it for the Sunday Times; it was settled for "substantial damages". Either worth a mention? Gog the Mild (talk) 22:15, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Stirling reference was already there, but I've added the Dossier one now. - SchroCat (talk) 08:08, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Keeper of Prints and Drawings". Lower-case initial letters?
  • The MOS says caps for “globally unique” titles, which I think this is. It looks like a very odd job description when written in lower case. - SchroCat (talk) 06:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1940 ... Deighton witnessed the arrest of ... Wolkoff was detained as a Nazi spy"> Perhaps mention that there was a war on?
  • "he learned to fly and became an experienced scuba diver and excellent shot with both rifle and pistol." ... and ... and ... and ... And I would insert an additional "an".
  • The "Works" section seems weak, with nothing at all on his non-fiction and his non-spy fiction only mentioned in "Adaptations". Given that this output was extensive and well received I struggle to see this getting over the "it neglects no major facts or details" in its current state.
Eg reviews of his military history works repeatedly comment on how the many drawings in the text help to illustrate (groan) his points. Worth a mention?
  • See below on the 'critical reception of Fighter' point. I try to keep the 'Works' sections for overviews of the topics as a whole (ie. from the point of literary criticism, where they pull together threads and patterns from all the works together). Reviews don't do this, and are - to my mind at least - better left on the book's article unless they are particularly notable (such as the quotes from A. J. P. Taylor and Albert Speer). I'm also trying to avoid having details of his timeframe in the biography and then just repeating the same books but with reviews in a Works section. It may work for a longer article, but not one where there is so little information in the public domain about the man himself. - SchroCat (talk) 07:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment I am not entirely convinced by this, but let me reread with this is mind.
No probs. There is no guidance on the MOS on how writer biographies should be dealt with, and therefore zero advice on how best to deal with someone who has a multi-faceted writing career, so any input you have is welcome. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:33, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While studying he held a temporary job in 1951 as a pastry chef at the Royal Festival Hall."; "while he was at art school and working as a porter in the restaurant of the Royal Festival Hall, where he occasionally assisted the chefs in preparing dishes." There seems to be both repetition and possible contradiction here.
  • "as coming from his time at the advertising agency, when he was the only member of the company's board". He was on an agency's board of directors? This doesn't seem to fit with the earlier rather 'gig economy' description "Much of his work as an illustrator was in advertising—he worked for agencies in New York and London—but he also illustrated magazines and over 200 book covers". Also, singular versus plural.
  • Well, it's what the source says... I'm not seeing the singular versus plural issue - can you highlight please? - SchroCat (talk) 14:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the first quote "agency", in the second "agencies". Gog the Mild (talk) 18:26, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
He was at an agency (singular) in London where he was on the board, but worked at another (therefore second, plural) in NY. - SchroCat (talk) 18:38, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a work that described itself as "a real London guidebook". The book described the hostels". Optional: A synonym for one use of "described"?
  • Amended as part of rewording below. - SchroCat (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by amending the claim in unsold editions". Is it known how this was physically done?
  • Not that I can see, even in unreliable sources. The current source say "They had agreed to make suitable amendments to all unsold copies in their possession". I assume something along the lines of an erratum slip, but not even antique book selling sites clarify the point. - SchroCat (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The book described the hostels owned by Lord Rowton as being doss-houses for down-and-outs." Did it? That first edition is vanishingly rare, but I have a source which says "the suggestion according to the courts, that his descriptions associated the hotels with doss houses for vagrants ... The issue seems to be perhaps that, by describing these hotels in between chapters discussing vagrants, cheap hotels and 'poor districts', the impression was given that these hotels were somehow just up-market doss houses. In UK libel law, it seems, the merest "suggestion" of doss houses and cheap prices is enough to build a case for libel."
  • I've tweaked slightly to be fully in line with the law report from The Times. - SchroCat (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Publishing career: 1961–": the stuff on the critical reception of Fighter would, IMO, fit better in "Works".
  • That would give what is supposedly an analysis section something that only contains reviews. The Novels section is from third party analysis of his works made some time after the works were published, so his work is viewed at a distance by literary critics from a certain point. That's different from just giving what reviewers thought about individual works at the point of publication. Reviews are, I think, best place on the book's article, except where they suggest something a little out of the ordinary. - SchroCat (talk) 14:14, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Similarly with the genesis of SS GB.
  • Currently the comments on Deighton's books comes across as a bit of a ragbag of factoids rather than a considered analysis of them. I am probably being over harsh there, but something is missing.
  • There is not much in the way of analysis of his work as a whole, unfortunately. - SchroCat (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another factoid, but it may be worth mentioning that Nehring once commanded the Akrika Korps?
  • Possibly a bit of overkill, given the AK wasn't in existence until a year after the period covered by the book! - SchroCat (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After completing Faith, Hope and Charity he decided to take a year off writing". Is it known when this was?
    Added - SchroCat (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "where he married Ysabele," Is her maiden name known?
    Not that I've found. - SchroCat (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The infobox mentions two children, but I am struggling to find where they are mentioned in the text.
    Added - SchroCat (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to pause here and await responses. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:12, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Gog, all your points addressed - hopefully satisfactorily, although we'll see! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi SchroCat, that mostly seems fair enough, if a bit frustrating in some cases. There have been a few changes since I started reviewing, so I'll give it another read through and see what further nits I can pick. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:16, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Take 2[edit]
  • Should that be 'Deighton attended the Saint Martin's School of Art and the Royal College of Art'?
  • "Other topics of non-fiction military history."
  • "favourably compared with his both his contemporary John le Carré"
  • it goes on with "and", but the "both" now moved for clarity. - SchroCat (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The "both" was fine. It was the "his" before it that was the problem.
Doh! Now sorted. - SchroCat (talk) 20:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and it is likely that". Tim would say that you were slipping into US English here.
  • Indeed! I miss his reviewing at the moment, although hopefully he'll return shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "according to the journalist Jake Kerridge". Do we need the in line attribution?
  • Not now the quote has been removed. - SchroCat (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I quite like the Writing career section now. (Although I was startled to read that Blitzkrieg was a "history of the rise of the Nazis and the fall of France". I shall have to re-read it in this light.)
  • Part one of the book takes you back to 1914 and works through the brownshirts, night of the long knives, etc right up to the invasion of Czechoslovakia for part 2
  • I have been looking into this quite a lot over the last week or so, and could probably stretch to a section on cookery books, but still nothing on the MilHist part outside individual reviews. (I'm really not saying it to annoy you MilHist types, honest!) - SchroCat (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I bought a copy when it was first out, still own it and have read it several times. Even used it as a source! Deighton was neither an academic nor had gone to the right schools, plus his analyses could be read as running down the more traditional approaches, so he didn't get analysed nor even much reviewed. To my way of thinking several of the reviews contain chunks of analysis; no doubt other ways of thinking are available.
  • I still think there is a place for a comment on his use of numerous sketches in his non-fiction, but I am probably in a minority.
  • Adaptations: how come "Bullet to Beijing (1995) and Midnight in Saint Petersburg (1996)" get their release dates added, but " The Ipcress File, Funeral in Berlin, Billion Dollar Brain and Spy Story" don't?
  • "A public school are fee-paying institutions"
  • As you can see from this, they may be fee-paying, but those who have been to them are still able to mangle and murder the English language! - SchroCat (talk) 19:46, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:52, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Gog - much obliged. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:46, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Gog. Along with a few others who have commented here, I always look forward to your comments at "my" FACs, and this time is no exception. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:10, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Boeuf_Bourguignon_Cookstrip.jpg: FUR is incomplete. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:18, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks Nikkimaria. Those are now done. I’ve added two more images; could I ask you to cast your eye over them too? Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 06:47, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Анна_Николаевна_Волкова.jpg needs a US tag and author date of death, and is it possible to translate the source? File:Michael-Caine-1967-Helsinki-b.jpg needs a US tag and information on first publication, plus the source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I knew I shouldn't have pinged to ask... ;-)
    I'll look into these and see what I can sort out. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:07, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Анна_Николаевна_Волкова.jpg removed (and nominated for deletion). Possible copyright infringement, or at least too dubious to merit inclusion here. - SchroCat (talk) 08:33, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Michael-Caine-1967-Helsinki-b.jpg: source link now live, but no further information on the anything else yet. Still working on this one. - SchroCat (talk) 08:37, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Michael-Caine-1967-Helsinki-b.jpg Going to have to remove this one too. Although it's out of copyright in Finland (where it was taken over fifty years ago), I can't find the original source, nor any publication information. It's annoying, as this is of Caine while filming an adaptation of one of Deighton's works, but can't do anything without the source info. - SchroCat (talk) 16:06, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Nikkimaria, I'm trying again with two different images. One of these is on an FA, so should be OK. They are:
File:Maugham retouched.jpg
File:Graham Greene angol író, 1975 Fortepan 84697.jpg
Can I ask you to cast your eye over these ones please? Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Both of those look fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:08, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, thanks very much! Your assistance is, as always, hugely appreciated. - SchroCat (talk) 00:50, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from PMC[edit]

  • Staking my claim here, poke me if I don't get back to it within a week or so. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:25, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here we go, without having read the other comments, so forgive me if there's any overlaps.

  • Maybe link spy novel in the lead
  • Thank you for the footnote about Wolkoff - as a nosy reader I wanted that tidbit :)
  • What's an emergency school?
Added. - SchroCat (talk) 11:45, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not a big deal but you have some duplicate links to WW2 and Churchill; I removed one to WW2 already as it was quite close to the first, but the others are farther down (para starting "In September 1967") and I didn't want to pull them in case they were deliberate.
  • I think we're allowed two link now (if the circumstances are right), and I think the links are far enough apart for Churchill. - SchroCat (talk) 20:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • We are, I mostly just wanted to make sure it was on purpose :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • For those who aren't offhand familiar with French geography (and since his stay in France has not been mentioned previously), can you provide some context for the Dordogne?
  • Suggest linking Philip Marlowe
  • I might suggest a footnote to clarify the difference between grammar school vs public school; for those without familiarity with British schooling and class systems, Deighton's explanation might be a touch confusing
  • Will do. I keep forgetting how confusing it is for non-Brits to 'get' the differences and nuances of the two. - SchroCat (talk) 20:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done! - SchroCat (talk) 15:28, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The paragraph beginning "In September 1967" is entirely about the Snowdrop article and outcome, with Playboy tacked on at the end. I would suggest splitting Playboy off, then combining it with the two small paragraphs starting In 1968 and In 1970, to give you one mid-size paragraph
  • Do we know why Taylor advised Deighton to write Fighter?
  • Nothing I've seen, but I'll have a look for this. - SchroCat (talk) 20:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Original publication year for Blood, Tears and Folly? Otherwise having the 2023 date there feels odd
  • Also feels a bit odd to have the 2023 date for his last history book but not his last novel
  • I think we cover that in the 'personal life' section ("After completing Faith, Hope and Charity in 1996..."), but if you think we should put something in somewhere else, just let me know and I'll sort it out. - SchroCat (talk) 20:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm. I can see the argument for both ways - putting his retirement at the end of career makes chronological sense, but putting it into personal life lets you end with it and keeps it with the context that he didn't actually like writing. I'm content to leave it as-is. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Might link literary festivals
  • I quite like the Works section with analysis and critique, as distinct from the usual bibliography without any context. Some of this should be summarized for the lead, however, which currently doesn't have any of it
  • "the project was not forthcoming." I'm not sure about this wording. As an adjective, forthcoming can mean upcoming, available or ready, or willing to talk. None of those really feel like they work here.
  • Any word about the Samson novels? Did the project fall through? I assume so if stuck in dev hell since 2013, but it feels untidy to leave that dangling.
  • Who knows...! I presume it's fallen through, but there's been no news about it since the original announcement. - SchroCat (talk) 20:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's it! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 19:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks PMC! Mostly done (the easy ones, at least), but a few others still to cover. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi PMC, All done where I can, I think. I can't find anything about either why Taylor advised him to write, or an update on Clerkenwell films, but the rest is sorted. If you've any comments on any of the changes - or see anything else to be addressed - I'd be delighted to hear about it. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:28, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Schro, it all looks good to me. I'm a support! Cheers. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks PMC! Great comments, as always. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by from Ian[edit]

Brief comments so not recusing at this stage but a quick scan made me wonder if it's a bit on the laudatory side...

  • We have several positive quotes on works but when we come to Blood, Tears and Folly there's naught although WP's article describes it unflatteringly (there might be more to it than that of course).
  • Could we trim the second sentence from Speer? Aside from us hardly being able to trust a word he says at best of times, the second part is just fluff anyway...

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 18:07, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ian. Both those bits sorted. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:56, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "he designed the cover for first UK edition" => "he designed the cover for the first UK edition"
  • "the family lived in Gloucester Place Mews near Baker Street" - if the family lived at what sounds like quite an upmarket address, do we have any info on why young Leonard was born in a workhouse?
  • The source doesn't say. Both his parents were in service and the upmarket address was (I think) the staff part of the house - although that last bit is OR, but the source doesn't cover why the workhouse. Maybe it was closer than a hospital? I'll try and do some looking into this point, but he's a fairly private individual who has given only a handful of interviews, so information about the man himself is scant. - SchroCat (talk) 08:47, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • From a rather unreliable source we're not able to use: "When Dorothy went into labour with Len, she was turned away from her nearest hospital in Marylebone, London, as it was full. She was sent instead to an infirmary that had originally been built to care for the poor of the adjoining workhouse." It's the only place I can find this explanation, so it could be the usual DM fabrication, or be sourced to something I can't find at the moment. - SchroCat (talk) 09:27, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During his work with the SIB he learned to fly, became" => "During his work with the SIB he learned to fly and became"
  • I don't think it's needed here (and also helps avoid the repetition of "and" that Gog highlighted above. - SchroCat (talk) 08:47, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think it's grammatically correct as it stands. Essentially you have two "actions" he did: "During his work with the SIB he [1] learned to fly, [2] became an experienced scuba diver and an excellent shot with both rifle and pistol." ([2] is all one action) The absence of an "and" between the two makes it read like a third thing is coming, but then it doesn't. It's like saying "During his life John F. Kennedy fought in WW2, became US President." The sentence isn't "complete". Does that make sense......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would suggest that "Writing career: 1961–" would be a better section heading, as he didn't do the actual publishing himself
  • "Deighton was commissioned by The Observer to provide a weekly "Cookstrip" for the paper's magazine" - "cookstrip" has a capital C mid-sentence here, but in the lead it didn't
  • "withdrew with suggestions made in the book" => " withdrew the suggestions made in the book"
  • "The historian Allan R. Millett considers the book" => "The historian Allan R. Millett considers that the book"
  • "The novel used appendices and footnotes which, according to the film academic Alan Burton" - you just mentioned him in the previous sentence so "according to Burton" would be fine here
  • "The academic George Grella considers [....] and provides "a convincingly detailed picture" - it isn't Grella who provides the detailed picture
  • "Burton considers The IPCRESS File is" => "Burton considers The IPCRESS File to be"
  • The claim that Saltzman came up with the name for the character does not agree with Harry_Palmer#Origin_of_the_'Harry_Palmer'_name - which is correct?
  • I'll look into this one, but may drop both stories into a footnote to cover all the bases. - SchroCat (talk) 08:47, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just added the name in the end. - SchroCat (talk) 11:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Chris - part done, with a couple I'll look into more closely. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:47, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Chris; all sorted. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks Chris - I'm much obliged. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:45, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

UC[edit]

Commenting per request with the usual pedantry and nit-picks. Only a few for now; I'll hopefully have some time to give it a proper look over in the next couple of days.

  • works on history and military history: can this sentence be reworked to remove the inelegance here? We wouldn't say "books of recipes and Chinese recipes". Perhaps "works of [social? general?] and military history"?
  • He wrote one on the assassination of JFK and one on the history of dirigibles up the Hindenburg, so a little disparate. I've gone with "history, particularly military history". Does that work for you? Alternatively, we could just go with we could go with "works on military history"? - SchroCat (talk) 18:48, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • On which, I don't think we mention any of these history works in the Works section, which is a little odd. I appreciate that there's a parent article for his bibliography, but a brief mention would be appropriate for comprehensiveness.
  • His history works have not been subject to the same overview as his literary works have. I try to keep 'Works' sections for the 'meta-review' where threads and patterns from all the works can be pulled together by the secondary sources, but there isn't anything like this for the history side, unlike the fiction side, where there is this higher-level analysis in the secondary sources. - SchroCat (talk) 18:48, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Deighton attended art school in London, and graduated from the Royal College of Art in 1955: I would put the name of St. Martin's back in: otherwise, this just looks like a wordy way of saying that he went to the RCA, since that's in London.
  • He had several jobs before becoming a book and magazine illustrator; he designed the cover for the first UK edition of Jack Kerouac's 1957 work On the Road.: purely for prose elegance, I would rework this: as currently phrased and weighted, it sounds as if the second clause should be explaining his several jobs before illustrating books.
  • which was published in 1962, and was a critical and commercial success: need to lose the comma here.
  • Deighton was born in a workhouse in Marylebone, London, on 18 February 1929: I know we're at the end of the workhouse era here, but my mind went to Oliver Twist: I was a bit surprised to hear that he had two parents who seemed to be fairly upstanding members of society. Perhaps some explanation is due here - did workhouses also double as hospitals?
  • The only explanation I can find on this is from a non-reliable source we're not allowed to use: "When Dorothy went into labour with Len, she was turned away from her nearest hospital in Marylebone, London, as it was full. She was sent instead to an infirmary that had originally been built to care for the poor of the adjoining workhouse." It's the only place I can find this explanation, but I'll keep looking for something that we can use. - SchroCat (talk) 18:48, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Found something which explains the local hospital was full. - SchroCat (talk) 09:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wolkoff was detained as a Nazi spy and charged with stealing correspondence between Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt.: was she guilty? If not, detained as a Nazi spy certainly casts that aspersion.
  • As guilty as she could be: ten years in prison - now added as a footnote just to cover anyone's immediate interest when reading. - SchroCat (talk) 19:09, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a major factor in my decision to write a spy story at my first attempt at fiction".: as my first attempt?
  • The original has "at": reading both alternatives, I can see either of them working okay. - SchroCat (talk) 19:22, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • was trained to be an excellent shot with both rifle and pistol: a bit WP:PUFFERY, I think, unless he was a really excellent shot (did he win any prizes or carry on in the sport after being demobbed?)
  • Deleted. That sentence has caused me too many problems, so this makes it all much easier. - SchroCat (talk) 19:09, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • enabling him to study at the Saint Martin's School of Art: the article on that school doesn't put a the in front of it; is that normal in sources?
  • I've taken it out. The sources can't make up their mind, so may as well stick to what our article does. - SchroCat (talk) 19:28, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following the publication of a cartoon cookery illustration in the Daily Express in 1961, Deighton was commissioned by The Observer to provide a weekly "cookstrip" for the paper's magazine: clear enough what is meant, but worth another look for prose and polish: the surface reading of this is that The Observer asked him to write for the magazine of the Daily Express.
    Reworked. - SchroCat (talk) 21:01, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Deighton came up with the concept: from what we've just read, it sounds as if he was told what a cookstrip was, and instructed to make them.
  • Reworked to sort both of these: how does it look? - SchroCat (talk) 20:22, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • steps he undertook: I've never seen that phrase before (and neither has Google Books): suggest took.
  • Deighton considers the character not as an anti-hero, but "a romantic, incorruptible figure in the mould of Philip Marlowe".: I would put a date on when he gave this judgement, since there's about over a century of possible thinking and mind-changing time in play.
  • who was called by the name "Harry" once, although the character says he does not remember whether he had used that name: this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me: could it be explained in a little more detail? Who calls him that?
  • I've removed it. It's not overly important in its own right. - SchroCat (talk) 21:46, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest wikilinking grammar school and public school in the quote, especially as public school will be obscure to our American readers.

Stopping here for now. Reading well so far. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:40, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the interests of getting through the article, I'm going to just plough on: can't immediately see anything in your replies with which I'd wish to quarrel, but I'll go back over and give it a proper second look at some point. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:55, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • For accessibility, text in French (e.g. Où est le garlic) should be in a lang template.
  • Note d: MOS:FIGURES would encourage five and 12 to be either both in words or both in figures.
  • Any way of finding out the first names of M. Rand and H. Lockston?
  • the hostels owned by Lord Rowton were doss-houses for down-and-outs: this is pretty heavy BrE: at least doss-houses might be worth a bit more explanation (not least because doss is slang for "sleep", so a doss-house sounds like it simply means a place to sleep).
  • The problem is that a doss-house is a particular type of lodging with no real synonym. There's no WP:commonality of term we can use on this (given the American term is a "flop house". I've linked to try and explain the difference, as the only alternatives I can see are to go inline: "...were doss-houses ("flop house" in American English)"; put the same 'translation' with a wider explanation into a footnote; or link the term to the Wikitionary.
    I can swap "down-and-out" for homeless without too much of an issue. - SchroCat (talk) 09:42, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How about defining it in plain English in a footnote? Neither term is very common, either in BrE or AmerE, so even many native speakers will only be guessing at precisely what it means: explaining it simply with "flop house" would be to clarify the obscure with the obscure, I think. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:49, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent idea. Now done. - SchroCat (talk) 11:26, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In September that year he wrote an article in The Sunday Times Magazine about Operation Snowdrop, an SAS attack on Benghazi during the Second World War. The following year David Stirling, the leader of the raid, was awarded substantial damages in libel from the article: Without getting into trouble, can we gesture at what he said about Stirling? This introduction might perhaps give him slightly short shrift, given that he founded and led the whole SAS show, not just an individual raid.
  • Deighton was the interviewee on Desert Island Discs in June 1976, where he was interviewed by Roy Plomley: better simply as was interviewed on Desert Island Discs in June 1976 by Roy Plomley?
  • After being advised to by the historian A. J. P. Taylor,: I think we really need to do so, but it might be punchier and clearer to put the concrete action first.
  • "censured by some for including interviews with German participants": this sounds like it should be very easy to verify: having it as a quote like this suggests that it's in doubt. Is it?
  • Reworded to avoid the suggestion. - SchroCat (talk) 21:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Blitzkrieg, his history of the rise of the Nazis: Hawkey's or Deighton's?
  • I notice that Deighton seems to have been rather chummy - or at least popular - with rather a lot of high-ranking Nazis. Did that ever raise any eyebrows?
  • His final history book is Blood, Tears and Folly: if we're going to give the subtitle, the link should cover that, too. Slightly tricky phrasing given that he's still alive: I'd still probably say was, but wonder whether last history book to date is... is better - he could theoretically write another.
  • I've dated it to 2023, as I think the MOS prefers that. - SchroCat (talk) 16:44, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • the division of the book into different theatres of war, rather than a purely chronological history: needs a look for grammar: contains the implied but ungrammatical sentence the division of the book into ... a purely chronological history

Stopping here for now, just above "Works".

  • Personal taste, perhaps, but I'd be inclined to start this section with a mini-lead, summarising the key aspects of Deighton's oeuvre so that we have a sense of the overall wood before diving into the individual trees. That would give us an opening to better satisfy MOS:LEAD by bringing his historical work into the most sensible part of the body text. I did something like this for Panagiotis Kavvadias, whose archaeological career mostly divided into certain key areas but refused to be conveniently chronological.
  • I've added something of an introduction, but I'm not sure how far to go without overlapping with what follows. Any comments or thoughts? - SchroCat (talk) 15:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • as it brought in "a more insolent, disillusioned and cynical style to the espionage story: is Burton talking specifically about IPCRESS here? We've established, but then slightly lost, a link to The Spy Who Came in from the Cold.
  • Slight tweak to distance TSWCIFTC. - SchroCat (talk) 14:56, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • gave a sense of authenticity to the work: are these footnotes written form a real-world or an in-universe perspective? Either way, but particularly for the latter, verisimilitude might be a better word (that is, the novels don't necessarily look like what real espionage looks like, but they look like what the reader imagines real espionage to look like).
  • Does JLC need linking twice in two paragraphs?
  • Grella considers Deighton to be "the angry young man of the espionage novel: this seems to be crying out for a comparison with another author... Fleming, surely?
  • Not with another author. Reworked a bit to show we're talking about the working class character being more efficient and effective than his establishment bosses. - SchroCat (talk) 14:56, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And, surely, his establishment peers (at least in other novels) like Bond - or has that not been an aspect of the reception of these works? UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:01, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think there was a some reference somewhere, but it may have been insignificant. I'll have a look over the sources again to see if I can see anything useful. - SchroCat (talk) 15:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • either the producer for two of the three films, Harry Saltzman, or the actor Michael Caine came up with the name: might reorder for elegance: get the long epithet (the producer for two of the three films) to the end if possible. I might bring the fact that Caine played Palmer up to be his introduction.
  • which Palmer is breaking eggs: the present continuous doesn't read quite right to me here: any problem with breaks? Fowler would thank you.
  • The first trilogy of his Bernard Samson novel series: I would always restate the name in a new paragraph, so that it stands alone as a complete idea.
  • Although Quentin Tarantino expressed interest in filming the trilogy, the project was not forthcoming: perhaps worth being a little clearer that filming means "turning into feature films" rather than "doing the camerawork for", since the trilogy was filmed in that latter sense.
  • The nine Samson novels were in pre-production with Clerkenwell Films in 2013, with a script by Simon Beaufoy.... and have presumably since been cancelled, unless they're being incredibly slow about it?
  • Who knows...! I presume so, but there has been no news about it since. I suppose it's possible they still have the rights to continue doing it, but there's been no news about it since the first announcement. - SchroCat (talk) 15:48, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is very nitpicky, even for me, but I think a link like a five-part TV miniseries is best if it covers the a, per WP:LEASTSURPRISE: it's clearer that it refers to a specific five-part miniseries rather than the concept of five-part miniseries.
  • four broadcasts of two-hours: need to lose the hyphen: how about four broadcasts, each of two hours, between...?
  • In Letters from Burma: I would briefly introduce what this book is. I'm not sure if ASSK has quite reached the point where "the politician" is a slightly disingenuous label (cf. "the politician Nelson Mandela" or "the politician Saddam Hussein", depending on your perspective).
  • Given her slightly contentious image, I think "politician" is probably the most neutral tag we can put onto her (it is, after all, correct, even if not the full story). That is, unless you have a better idea of something we can use that covers her better? - SchroCat (talk) 15:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ninety-nine Novels: needs three capitals, I think: weirdly, it has them on its cover and in its article, but not in its title.
  • was reading it at the time: the time of what?
  • I love that you put all of his Desert Island Discs choices into a footnote.
  • Image thoughts: perhaps some of these people involved in his work, its adaptation and reception could be pictured? Michael Caine circa the right period, for example?
Hi UC, how's this looking now? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:07, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support; thanks for the nudge. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Guerillero drive-by comment

Mostly just a drive-by comment, since I have some time this morning. Why is Northwest Vision and Media a high-quality RS? That is the only source that I could quibble with. Great work SC! --Guerillero Parlez Moi 08:59, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Guerillero. I think it is probably okay, but I've swapped it out for two stronger ones anyway (the BBC and The Times - both much better ones). Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:12, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from JennyOz[edit]

Placeholder, back soon! JennyOz (talk) 04:15, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi SchroCat, just when I was thinking about giving up reviewing... This was a great read! I've had trouble keeping up with your changes tonight so forgive me if some of these comments, suggestions and questions have already been addressed.

I'm delighted you enjoyed it - and I'm sure I'm not the only one who hopes you don't stop reviewing. I look forward to your comments - as I do to three or four others - as being some of the better reviews to get. I know the article will only be much better after your attention. - SchroCat (talk) 15:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • add Briteng template

ibox

  • intentionally person, not writer?
  • Not intentionally - it was like that when I got here... swapped out
  • left out first wife intentionally?
  • Yes. Less is more, and his notability is based on his writing, not the number (or names) of his wives.

lede

  • He had several jobs before becoming a book and magazine illustrator, when he designed the cover - not sure about "when", would a semicolon be better?
  • UC noted that a previous version (with a semi-colon) suggested the cover design was one of the 'several jobs'. I've tweaked slightly: how does that work now? - SchroCat (talk) 15:59, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • miniseries Game, Set and Match based on - why no link?
  • dramatisation of his novel Bomber. - 1970 novel

Biography

  • I could finish the boko without giving him - typo book
  • and Où est le garlic, a collection - add a translation in brackets?
  • copies in three years.[18][19] [20] The - space between refs
  • (1967)— after which he published - is that space after em dash meant to be there?
  • "The book suggested the hostels owned by Lord Rowton were doss-houses for the homeless.[e] He and the publishers Jonathan Cape were sued for libel; they apologised, withdrew the suggestions made in the book by amending the claim in unsold editions and paid substantial damages" - who sued him and JC? (not owned by the linked Lord Rowton, he died 1903)?
This fellow has a clip re Harris and others v. Deighton and others i.e., William Barclay Harris chairman of Rowton Hotels and Frederick Albert Shearing, managing director. (Same Times piece?) So change to "hostels owned by Lord Rowton" to hotels operated by Rowton Houses/Hotels. (or similar)?
  • He explained in court - swap "He" to Stirling (last name was Deighton)
  • General Sir Alan Brooke. General Sir Claude Auchinleck - swap full stop to comma
  • the historian A. J. P. Taylor. - these initials are split across lines on my screen, add nbsps per MOS:INITS
  • This was followed in 1978 - Fighter was followed (ie new para)?
  • Sorry - I'm being slow today - I'm not sure what you mean here - SchroCat (talk) 16:22, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very slow! Now sorted. - SchroCat (talk) 06:41, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • his final history book is - last or latest?
  • "Last" added - likely his final, unless he's sneakily putting something together. - SchroCat (talk) 16:22, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • would have improved by wider research - been improved (or Engvar thing)?
  • According to Adrian Flowers's photography archive, Ysabele's surname was de Ranitz. If that's not usable as a source, it might help in a search. (And perhaps someone on that site might donate a low res pic - worth an email?)
  • Excellent - thanks for that, I'll run some searches to see what else I can find. - SchroCat (talk) 16:22, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've gone with the Flowers ref and emailed to see if they can help. - SchroCat (talk) 12:21, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • writing was "a mug's game" that - not sure how well that term is known, (used in US?) it has a Wiktionary entry if necessary

Works

  • producing work; in 1976, said "I like the research better - needs 'he' after 1976?
  • in contrast to the upper class and ineffective senior members - compound hyphen upper-class

Adaptations

  • All feature the Deighton character who was unnamed in the books but was given - all feature the books' unnamed character but was given
  • Sorry, prob needs 'he' or 'who' now after "but" or some other tweak? My bad. JennyOz (talk) 04:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • for a scene in which Palmer breaks eggs into a bowl and whisking them - tense whisks?
  • the first trilogy of his Bernard Samson novel series - intentional italics on character?
  • Just checking the italics are intentional. JennyOz (talk) 04:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've taken them out, but I'm always in two minds about a book series: I've used them sometimes and not used them sometimes and been told I'm doing it the wrong way either way. - SchroCat (talk) 11:46, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    MOS:SERIESTITLE gets into it - it's mostly no, with a few exceptions, none of which apply here. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 12:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • made into a thirteen-part television series by Granada Television in 1988 - name it again ie Game, Set and Match?
  • Although Quentin Tarantino expressed interest - had expressed?
  • for a a five-part miniseries, broadcast - dupe "a"
  • broadcast a real time dramatisation - compound hyphen real-time?

Note d.

  • Observer Food Magazine - Observer Food Monthly per captions (and why work=The Observer when story is in Guardian - not a reprint from before 1993 acquisition?)
  • It's not in The Guardian, even though it's on theguardian.com. If you look to the left of the main title, you'll see it says "The Observer". - SchroCat (talk) 20:41, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • (now Note f.) Ah, of course! But... I'm still confused re the name of pub'n (you have "printed monthly in the Observer Food Magazine"), in the 3 captions it is "Observer Food Monthly", not Magazine? JennyOz (talk) 04:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Observer magazine does a monthly food version every month, but it's still the "Observer Food Magazine", even though they sometimes call it "Observer Food Monthly" inhouse. - SchroCat (talk) 11:46, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

  • Buckton location=Detroit, MI - Michigan? are state abbreviations okay?
  • I thought they were OK... should we have the full name now? - SchroCat (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have no idea and can't remember if I've seen it mentioned in source reviews. There's this MOS:STATEABBR but it doesn't mention in refs. Leave as is:) JennyOz (talk) 04:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Burton Wilmington, DE
  • Macdonald Detroit, MI
  • Macdonald, Gina - tweak alpha order
  • Twigg, Melissa - alpha
  • Parini, Jay - editorlink
  • Symons, Julian - authorlink

Categories

  • Members of the Detection Club - not mentioned in article nor in Detection Club but is on his bibliography
  • I didn't see anything on this, so I'll have a look for this. - SchroCat (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Found something: now added. - SchroCat (talk) 10:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • People educated at William Ellis School - not in article? though he is listed on here with a ref
  • add cat/s for cookery books and illustrators?

Misc

  • Works - does seem strange this section includes Novels but not cookery books and other
  • His history and cookery works have not been subject to the same overview as his literary works have, so if we include sections on these, all we'd have is either a litany of titles and publishing dates, or a mini quote farm from various reviews. - SchroCat (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • also wrote Len Deighton's French Cooking For Men per here or is it a retitle?
  • It's a retitle of Où est le garlic. - SchroCat (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regards, JennyOz (talk) 14:07, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi JennyOz, all as on point as always - and thank you! I think I've covered everything, but if I've missed anything please let me know. There's only one question, which is about the state abbreviations: should we not be using those now? Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:48, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi SchroCat, I've added a few responses above and sorry, a couple of last minor questions...

  • He has a works template but is a category not warranted? (Fleming and le Carre have one)
  • Slightly belatedly I've done this, although probably messed it up along the lines as it's the first time I've set up a category, as far as I remember. - SchroCat (talk) 22:10, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note f again "Deighton wrote five cookery books in total" - I'm slightly uncomfortable with the tense here for a living person bio - we can't know if anything is final. Maybe tweak this to 'Deighton has written five cookery books in total? (he was still doing cookstrips with son Alex in 2021)
  • categories - he was doing things after 2001 so needs cat for 21st century British writers or similar?
  • The only dated ones are novelist and RAF personnel. Obviously not in the RAF for years, but his last novel was in 1996 (although I always keep hoping for another one at some time...!) - SchroCat (talk) 12:34, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Deighton was born in Marylebone, London, on 18 February 1929" - unusual for you in a bio not to repeat full name after lede? I can't access refs 1 and 2 so cannot tell if his middle name Cyril per lede is referenced?

That's enough nitpicking from me! Very happy to add my s'port now as none of my new comments are particularly important. Oh and thanks sincerely for your kind words. JennyOz (talk) 04:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Jenny! All sorted! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:34, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

  • Can we get an ISSN or somesuch for The Bookseller, The Book and Magazine Collector, and The Lancet?
    Added. - SchroCat (talk) 17:08, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • All other sources use title case; any reason that the newspaper articles don't?
    I've just always done it that way - Websites is also in sentence case (although I've had to correct one that wasn't!). As long as there is consistency within each format, that works. - SchroCat (talk) 17:08, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • References and sources otherwise consistently formatted.
  • Spot checks not done.
  • Sources are highly reliable.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:35, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:22, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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