Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Magic Johnson/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:14, 28 May 2008 [1].

Magic Johnson[edit]

This article was the Collaboration of the Month for WP:NBA, and after a lot of edits, I think it is ready to be a FA. Fire away. Noble Story (talk) 02:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Articlestats:

Chensiyuan 366
Downwards 84
Noble Story 81
Zagalejo 44
Onomatopoeia 44

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • You list a number of english language printed biographies of MJ, but the main printed references used are in German? Certainly it's not an oppose, but wouldn't it make more sense to source things to the large numbers of English language works also?
Other sources look good. Links checked out fine. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The original editor who put in those references is no longer here, so I don't know why he did that. I'll work on replacing those refs; there aren't too many of them. Noble Story (talk) 02:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe he's German and he's still around WP, just not very frequently. Chensiyuan (talk) 03:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I am the original editor of those "German" edits and still alive. When I kicked this article to GA level, those two German basketball books were my first sources of info. If you can substitute these bits, ok, if you keep them in, also ok. —Onomatopoeia (talk) 10:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- one of the collaborators, but focused more on minor edits. Chensiyuan (talk) 03:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support comparable to Yao Ming and Tim Duncan, both FAs in WP:NBA range. I did not work much for FAC, but I did a chunk of work for getting this article to GA. —Onomatopoeia (talk) 10:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- agree with the above sentiments; comparable quality to that of the Tim Duncan and Yao Ming featured articles. Good referencing. Boomtish (talk) 11:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
done, I fixed the problem. —Chris! ct 18:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Great job to everyone who work very hard improving the article. —Chris! ct 17:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Surely those of you who have posted "support" thus far realize that this is not a vote, and have carefully compared this article to the featured article criteria before commenting? --Laser brain (talk) 00:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Those who have posted thus far are relatively experienced editors. I believe they have watched the progress of this article over the last year or so. Almost all of them have worked on FAs before so they would be aware of the criteria. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I know this is not a vote - sorry if my comment above sounds like a vote. —Chris! ct 02:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Just adding a reminder of the instructions at WP:FAC: If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I do believe all had indicated beforehand, and since Downwards is not in the mix, this notice is otiose. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - A very good article, but still some small issues.

  • This is really nit-picky, but should the MVP awards be reversed? Many would consider a regular season MVP to be of greater importance. I see the same thing later with All-Rookie and NBA All-Star starter. It just seems strange to me that the seemingly more important honor comes second. Is this a standard?
    • You have a point, but the NBA Wikiproject members are still in the midst of deciding how to standardise the look of the infoboxes. There is no fixed standard yet, it's a work in progress.
      • I meant the text, not the infobox. While I'm here, "both an All-Rookie and NBA All-Star starter" is somewhat misleading, because he didn't start a game as an All-Rookie selection. I'd suggest rewording this. Giants2008 (talk) 00:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • NBA 50 Greatest Players. Should NBA be plural?
  • "remains the NBA's all-time leader in that statistical category." Is statistical really needed? It almost seems redundant.
    • Never mind. I saw another FAC that uses this phrase, so I guess it is an accepted form, although I wouldn't describe it like that myself. Giants2008 (talk) 00:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which he made public in 1991, and which caused him to retire temporarily." Two uses of "which" here. Try this: "causing him to retire temporarily."
    • Plausible enough.
  • Michigan State University: Change TV to television.
  • "Johnson again led Michigan State to the 1979 NCAA Tournament" reads like they played in it twice. Moving a couple words should fix this.
    • Del'd "1979" but the piped link remains.
  • Link Most Outstanding Player.
    • Didn't realise there was an article for this, thanks for pointing out.
  • Rookie season in the NBA: Another nit-pick, but was Gail Goodrich really a star? He was a very good player, but star may be pushing it. Just describing his position would be safer.
    • 5-time All-Star and Hall of Famer, not too shabby!
  • "to win against the San Diego Clippers" "To defeat" is cleaner.
    • Yes, I suppose.
  • team mates is a term I've seen used in different forms. Should this have a dash or be combined into one word?
    • The online dictioaries I've checked have it as one word. So, I think we should keep it that way. Noble Story (talk) 02:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and with Paul Westhead replacing coach McKinney as a coach after a serious bicycle crash,".
    • Del'd. Have to run, would return later or maybe some other editor can address the remaining points. Chensiyuan (talk) 00:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "suffered in Game 5" could be "during Game 5". Giants2008 (talk) 22:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think Chensiyuan and I have covered everything. Noble Story (talk) 02:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I left a note after my first comment, so make sure to check that. Here are more criticisms.
  • Johnson returned before the start of 1981 playoffs" The 1981 playoffs.
  • "In Game 1 of that series, Johnson made a halfcourt buzzer-beater to force the game into overtime, but the Rockets won the game and closed out the series 2–1, with the road team winning each game by six points or less." This statement needs serious work. There are four games in this sentence, and the middle should be "eventually closed out" or similar. This is also a borderline run-on sentence, with a lot of different thoughts jammed in.
  • Ups and downs: Link Jerry Buss
  • "even by the Lakers fans." Either remove the or add an apostrophe to Lakers.
  • Rivalry with Larry Bird and the Celtics: Try this for the first two sentences: "Boston Celtics forward Larry Bird, Johnson's rival from the 1979 NCAA championship game. After winning the 1980 NBA Rookie of the Year Award, Bird led the Celtics to the 1981 NBA title."
  • "Johnson had another all-round season" seems like it's missing a descriptive word, like fine, strong or solid.
  • Kevin McHale missed his shot" is a factual error; he missed a pair of free throws.
  • "another two gaffes" could be "two more gaffes" but this is personal preference.
  • Game 7: "and the series was over" is an odd transition. I like ", effectively ending the series."
  • 1984-85: Comma after regular season, before a citation that currently isn't after punctuation.
  • "as they were defeated 148–114 on Memorial Day in Game 1" Don't like the order of this. Swap some of it around. Giants2008 (talk) 00:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done (except for Buss link, which was already linked in the rookie section). Noble Story (talk) 02:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can we make the Twin Towers link go to the sports section of the article? I must say, it's a bit strange now to see this old nickname. It reminds me of 9/11.
  • Repeat and falling short: "After splitting the first six games 3–3" Redundant. What other way would they be split evenly? Also mention Game 7 in the next sentence.
  • Is Magic's first All-Star MVP award worthy of mention?
  • HIV announcement and Olympics: Link AIDS.
  • Comma after Karl Malone.
  • Post-Olympics and later life: "Johnson purchased a share of his Lakers" Technically, they weren't his Lakers until he bought them. I get what this means, but I think it can be worded better.
  • Personal life, last sentence of first paragraph: A lot of ands here.
  • Grammar error: "and he has served as a United Nations Messengers of Peace." Giants2008 (talk) 00:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some comments I'll add them as they come to mind:
Resolved comments hidden. Zagalejo^^^ 17:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rated by ESPN as the greatest NBA point guard of all time,[2] Johnson was a member of the "Dream Team" U.S. basketball team which won the Olympic gold medal in 1992.
The way that sentence is structured, readers might think Johnson's spot on the Dream Team was contingent on ESPN's commentary, even though Johnson wasn't rated best point guard until fifteen years after the '92 Olympics.
I disagree with that interpretation, but it's not an issue now.
I understood what the sentence was supposed to mean, but you have to eliminate any chance of misinterpretation. It looks better now, though. And it's good to keep the legacy stuff in its own paragraph.
  • For his basketball achievements — including introducing his brand of up-tempo "Showtime" basketball to the NBA
I think we should avoid terms like "up-tempo", which are kind of slangy.
What would the suggested synonym be?
Fast-paced, maybe? Zagalejo^^^ 04:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, I was hoping for something more exciting. Anyway, I'd wait for you to list more comments before working on them.
  • shrugs* There's probably something better. I'll think about it.
  • According to his mother, he displayed great enthusiasm when he received his first basketball as a present.
Where is this mentioned in the cited source? Zagalejo^^^ 03:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The source is for the part on sleeping I think. That he was enthusiastic about his first present is not something that really demands a source, although I'm sure it can be found. Chensiyuan (talk) 04:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm sure it's true, but the way it's worded ("According to his mother..") suggests that it specifically came from somewhere. Zagalejo^^^ 04:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I decided to pull that part out, for the time being. When we have a source, we can reinsert it. I did quote more of Johnson's own description of his childhood, because I thought the part about dribbling to the store was interesting, in light of his later reputation as a ball-handling wizard. Zagalejo^^^ 04:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nice. Chensiyuan (talk) 14:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...a nickname that Johnson's mother, a devout Christian, thought was blasphemous.
This wording is too similar to that in the source ("Johnson's mother, a devout Christian, thought the nickname was blasphemous."). It's not enough to just shuffle words around. Use some synonyms to make the wording your own. Similarly, "The team dedicated the next season to Chastaine and vowed to win the state championship to honor his memory" is too close to the original. ("The team dedicated the season to Chastaine and vowed to win the state title.") Just watch for that throughout the article.
I've tried to reword the phrases. However, there are only so many ways you can word a short sentence without making it overly complicated. Noble Story (talk) 05:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weren't Johnson's parents Seventh-Day Adventists? I think I read that somewhere. If so, we can replace "Christian" with the more specific "Seventh-Day Adventist". Zagalejo^^^ 17:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Per the current source, it only says Christian; since a Seventh-Day Adventist is a Christian but not necessarily vice versa, I suppose we should source it. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Seems that his mother, at least, was a Seventh-Day Adventist: [2]. Zagalejo^^^ 17:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • With proximity to home being a major consideration...
Unnecessarily complicated. Recast the whole sentence and keep things simple. Zagalejo^^^ 05:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reworded. Noble Story (talk) 05:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Much better. Zagalejo^^^ 17:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...and signed him for US$600,000 a year.
Is the "US" really necessary there? Is that an MOS thing? I think readers would assume he was being paid in US dollars. Zagalejo^^^ 17:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I always get a headache reading MOS guidelines, but I think this is the relevant one to look at. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It says,"The exception to this is in articles related entirely to the US and the UK, in which the first occurrence may also be shortened and not linked ($34 and £22, respectively), unless this would be unclear." So I don't think we need the "US" part. Zagalejo^^^ 17:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for reading that. Chensiyuan (talk) 13:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Factual question: was Kareem already the all-time leading scorer in 1979? Zagalejo^^^ 17:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. He broke the record in 1984. Perhaps change it to "who would become the leading scorer in NBA history." Giants2008 (talk) 20:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Johnson was expected to help out the Lakers on both ends of the court, but it was his enthusiasm that the team fed off the most.
Should we be presenting this as a fact? You can't measure enthusiasm. Zagalejo^^^ 23:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your quibble is with "most" I suppose? If so, I took it out. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with "most". Even without it, though, the sentence was still somewhat awkward, so I made some more changes to it. Zagalejo^^^ 17:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • As the season progressed, Johnson learned to share the ball better and complemented his teammates.
This sentence comes out of nowhere. We haven't said anything about his problems with his teammates.
Okay'd. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Lakers compiled a 60–22 record, and with Paul Westhead replacing coach McKinney after a serious bicycle crash, the Lakers reached the 1980 NBA Finals against the Philadelphia 76ers, who were headed by future Hall-of-Famer Julius "Doctor J" Erving.
We should probably have a separate sentence to explain the coaching change. That part just seems shoehorned into this one. Also, we should clarify that Dr. J was a player, not a coach. Zagalejo^^^ 23:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the first point, I tried to rephrase it. But not entirely satisfied yet. Chensiyuan (talk) 05:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the second point, seems more a word choice issue. In that connection "headed" and a possible alternative of "led", outside the sports lexicon, contain only nuanced differences. Chensiyuan (talk) 04:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Now we say that "Paul Westhead...had replaced McKinney", but we haven't mentioned McKinney anywhere else. Zagalejo^^^ 07:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since then, he has been a crusader for HIV/AIDS prevention and safe sex, as well as a philanthropist for social causes.
Is "crusader" the best word to use? And what specific "social causes" are we referring to?
I've changed to "advocate" and just "philanthropist". Noble Story (talk) 05:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Advocate is good. But is there really a difference between being an advocate for certain causes and being a philanthropist? What sort of things do you specifically have in mind when you call Johnson a philanthropist, and how are they different from his safe sex/AIDS awareness activities? Zagalejo^^^ 05:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In other words, advocacy and philanthropy are not mutually exclusive.Zagalejo^^^ 07:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • A general point: we use the term "Showtime" throughout the article, but we don't really explain what it means until the legacy section. We should probably discuss the topic earlier. Zagalejo^^^ 00:04, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It used to be. Lost in a heap of edits. Thinking of how to avoid repetition. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm finding this edit to be challenging. Any takers? Chensiyuan (talk) 13:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1981-82 NBA season, Johnson had a serious dispute with Westhead, who preferred a deliberate half-court offense as opposed to the quick fastbreak style favored by Johnson.
Do we have an article that explains the term "half-court offense" in more detail?
Tried searching in the basketball-related articles, no success. Maybe someone else would have better luck. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having acquired perennial All-Star Moses Malone that season, the Sixers were desperate to snatch a championship from the Lakers,[20] and with injuries suffered by Johnson's teammates Norm Nixon, James Worthy and Bob McAdoo leading up to and during the playoffs, the Lakers were swept by the Sixers, and Malone was crowned the Finals MVP.
Very long. And were the Sixers desperate to win because of Malone, or did they acquire Malone because they were desperate? (I know it's the latter, but the current wording makes this unclear). Zagalejo^^^ 18:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay'd. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, not quite. The "However" doesn't make any sense in that context. And you didn't address the second part of my comment. (Although that may be my fault -- there was a weird typo in there that might have made it impossible to understand.) Zagalejo^^^ 04:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to fix it myself. I'm not sure if I'm satisfied yet. Zagalejo^^^ 05:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That "however" doesn't make any sense in that context doesn't make any sense, but never mind. We should use a variety of connectors. Chensiyuan (talk) 13:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The sentences were, "Having acquired perennial All-Star Moses Malone that season, the Sixers were desperate to snatch a championship from the Lakers. However, with injuries suffered by Johnson's teammates Norm Nixon, James Worthy and Bob McAdoo before and during the playoffs, the Lakers were swept by the Sixers, and Malone was crowned the Finals MVP." However doesn't really work, because the second sentence isn't acting in opposition to the first. The second sentence simply describes another challenge that the Lakers faced. (I'm not sure if that clarifies things much, but just trust me: however is the wrong word for that situation.) Zagalejo^^^ 18:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 1983-84 NBA season witnessed the start of one of the NBA's most notable individual rivalries; while Johnson, as German sports journalist Günter Bork put it, was a black, smiling and highly spectacular "Showtime" playmaker, Bird was a white, trash talking blue-collar worker.
A few comments about this: 1) Didn't the Lakers and Celtics play against each other before 1983? 2) "Individual rivalries" is an awkward phrase. I'm guessing it's supposed to mean "rivalries between individual players", as opposed to team rivalries, but it should be replaced by something clearer. 3) Is that a direct quote from Gunter Bork? If so, it should be presented as such. Zagalejo^^^ 02:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1) I think that year is the first year that the two teams played in the Finals. 2)Actually, I think it was a team rivalry as well, so I eliminated the "individual". 3)I have no idea; I guess Onomatopoeia will have to answer that. Noble Story (talk) 02:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Were there any interesting Bird/Johnson duels before that season? (In the NBA, that is.)
None that would be really notable, I believe. Noble Story (talk) 03:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Game 3, the Lakers playmaker responded with 21 assists in a convincing 137–104 win for his team, but in Game 4, Johnson made a crucial error late in the game again. In the final minute of that game, Celtics center Robert Parish stole the ball from Johnson; this was followed by Johnson missing two free throws which could have won the game.
So, which of these was the crucial error? Zagalejo^^^ 02:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've reworded it. Noble Story (talk) 03:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • A general point: the first paragraph in "Rivalry with Larry Bird and the Celtics (1983–87)" is very long and detailed. It might work better as two smaller, more focused paragraphs. Zagalejo^^^ 02:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tried to reword as well. Noble Story (talk) 03:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I was talking about the first Bird-Magic section. Zagalejo^^^ 18:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh. OK, I've reworded it. Noble Story (talk) 11:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the 1988-89 NBA season, Johnson's 22.5 points, 7.9 rebounds and 12.8 assists per game earned him his second MVP award,[1] and the Lakers reached the 1989 NBA Finals, where they again faced the Pistons. But after Johnson went down with a hamstring injury in Game 2, the Lakers were no match for the "Bad Boy" Pistons, who swept them 4–0. A similar fate awaited Johnson in the 1989-90 NBA season, when he won his third MVP award after a strong regular season with averages of 22.3 points, 6.6 rebounds and 11.5 assists per game.[1] But after the retirement of Abdul-Jabbar, the Lakers bowed out in the second playoff round to the Phoenix Suns.
This passage is difficult to read. The transitional phrases are not well-chosen. What, specifically, does "A similar fate" refer to? Also, the way the paragraph is structured, one would think Abdul-Jabbar retired immediately before the 1990 playoffs. Zagalejo^^^ 19:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also reworded. Noble Story (talk) 11:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this matchup, Johnson faced shooting guard Michael Jordan, a multiple-scoring champion regarded as the finest player of his era.
"Multiple-scoring champion" is a strange phrase. I assume we are referring to Jordan's past five seasons in which he led the league in scoring.. right?
"Five-time scoring champion"? Chensiyuan (talk) 01:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, but is the scoring title really a "championship"? Zagalejo^^^ 01:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I guess the NBA uses that phrase in its Jordan bio. Zagalejo^^^ 01:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, the series failed to live up to the media billing, as Bulls defensive stalwart Scottie Pippen defended well against Johnson and Finals MVP Jordan led his team to a 4–1 win.
We don't actually say anything about the media hype surrounding the series. We probably should, though. Zagalejo^^^ 19:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Covered in part by the MJ reference, but yes to expanding it. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Johnson initially said that he did not know how he contracted the disease,[41] but later admitted that it was through having multiple sexual partners during his playing career, although he denied that he was homosexual.
This could be written more tactfully. Why "although"? "Although" signals that the text to follow will offer something suprising or contradictory. Is it surprising that someone with multiple sexual partners is not gay? The gay rumors are an important aspect of Johnson's biography, but we need to find a better way of discussing them.
I've reworded that section. Noble Story (talk) 12:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • U.S. President George H. W. Bush said: "For me, Magic is a hero, a hero for anyone who loves sports."
Source? I'm not doubting that Bush said this, but it's a direct quote, so I'm sure it came from somewhere specific. Zagalejo^^^ 01:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a reference. Noble Story (talk) 12:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The game ended after he made a last-minute three-pointer and his teammates ran onto the court, hugging him and exchanging high-fives.
I just watched this on YouTube. People from both teams were hugging him. Zagalejo^^^ 07:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Johnson is regarded as one of the most spectacular and controversial players ever.
What is "contoversial" about his playing style? Zagalejo^^^ 02:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How much of the "Personal life" section actually deals with Johnson's personal life? Zagalejo^^^ 07:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since then, he has been a crusader for HIV/AIDS prevention and safe sex, as well as a philanthropist for social causes.
    • Is "crusader" the best word to use? And what specific "social causes" are we referring to?
    I've changed to "advocate" and just "philanthropist". Noble Story (talk) 05:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
    Advocate is good. But is there really a difference between being an advocate for certain causes and being a philanthropist? What sort of things do you specifically have in mind when you call Johnson a philanthropist, and how are they different from his safe sex/AIDS awareness activities? Zagalejo^^^ 05:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
    In other words, advocacy and philanthropy are not mutually exclusive.Zagalejo^^^ 07:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
    • A general point: we use the term "Showtime" throughout the article, but we don't really explain what it means until the legacy section. We should probably discuss the topic earlier. Zagalejo^^^ 00:04, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
    It used to be. Lost in a heap of edits. Thinking of how to avoid repetition. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
    I'm finding this edit to be challenging. Any takers? Chensiyuan (talk) 13:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Johnson was still voted into the 1992 NBA All-Star Game, although his former teammates Byron Scott and A.C. Green said that Johnson should not play...
    Does anyone have exact quotes of what Scott and Green said? This is for my curiosity more than anything else. Were they respectful toward Johnson, or real snarky?
    The source used (Sports Illustrated article) don't have any quotes, so sorry. Noble Story (talk) 11:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, it's likely their exact quotes are available somewhere. Might be good to dig them up. Zagalejo^^^ 02:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    This article has some interesting quotes.--Crzycheetah 09:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • How did other players react to Johnson's 1996 comeback? I'm sure there's lot to say about that. That would be more interesting to readers than simple statistics.
    • Just one sentence about The Magic Hour? A brief description of the show wouldn't hurt.
    • Johnson's admission and subsequent campaigns publicized a risk of infection that included everyone.
    "publicized a risk of infection" is awkward. Isn't there a more straightforward way of saying this?
    • However, his appearances were not without controversy, as some felt his message of safer sex was risky..
    Elaborate? What did they want -- abstinence-only education, I presume?
    Well, now that part has been deleted. But I think this could be worth mentioning, if we can figure out exactly what they were opposed to. The article is a bit skimpy on the HIV-awareness stuff. Zagalejo^^^ 17:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. I should note that these comments are not meant to be comprehensive. I still haven't even read the entire article yet, and I haven't read any specific section more than twice. The way things are going, I think I'll cast my vote for oppose, but I'll continue to provide commentary until the FAC is over. Zagalejo^^^ 17:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weak support has improved considerably since its GA days but it lacks a "wow" factor somewhat. Well done nonetheless. Manderiko (talk) 14:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Mind...expanding on that a bit? Any particular concerns would be welcome. Noble Story (talk) 14:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's comprehensive and well-referenced, yes, but see criterion 1a of "brilliant" and "engaging" prose. Even now, it's a very stats/awards-based sort of article, as the GA editor had remarked some time back. He is "Magic" Johnson after all, but this article does not fully convey that feeling. Manderiko (talk) 03:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Okaaay, thank you for your comments. But still, any specific instances to point to? Noble Story (talk) 03:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think his comments mean that seeking specific instances would be chimerical. Chensiyuan (talk) 04:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I do think there are a lot of ultra-specific statistics that may not mean much to the average reader. Like, "He also joined Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson as the only NBA players to score at least 700 points, 700 rebounds and 700 assists in the same season." (That example is also syntactically screwy - you don't score rebounds or assists.) Zagalejo^^^ 17:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That he recorded 700x3 per se is not immediately impressive, but the fact that only two other players have done it is impressive even from an ordinary reader's perspective. Of course, the NBA does take stock of all manner of weird records, but 8 rebounds/8 assists per game is quite something. Chensiyuan (talk) 13:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong oppose, a casual look reveals many problems indicating a lot of work is left to do before this is at FA quality. I wish you had heeded Chensiyuan's talk page comment "Perhaps a fresh pair of eyes can give a 3p opinion before we go for it. A bunch of us have been too involved and may have missed something." before listing. Suggest withdrawing to peer review to deliniate issues and get a strong copyeditor to go through the text. Some issues this fails on:
      • 1a (prose): The prose is quite rough in many places and problems are easily spotted (ex. "After his retirement, Johnson engaged himself in many activities, including, among other things..." This was the second sentence I read at random; "including" and "among other things" are redundant. "Johnson is also well-known for having HIV, which he made public in 1991, causing him to retire temporarily." He made HIV public?)
      • 1b (comprehensiveness): Where is all the information about his treatment for HIV and about how he's not, you know, dead? I remember reading tons of stuff in the media about his high-priced treatments, speculation that he was cured, etc.
      • 2b (structure): Two different "Rivalry with Larry Bird" headings? --Laser brain (talk) 16:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose for now. Sorry, but this seems a bit stir-fried. There is one paragraph about HIV activism and one sentence about the Magic Johnson Foundation (no, there's no separate article for it, and 14,800 references to the phrase on Google, which means there's a comprehensiveness problem here...). Then there's a section entitled Legacy dealing with that he was a point guard in some kind of formation, had a rivalry with Larry Bird, and received honors as one of 50 great players, only the last of which is vaguely resembling a legacy and not nearly the kind of legacy as having a foundation named after you that goes on trying to cure disease. I'm not covering the whole article here but there's already enough there to send you back to the drawing board for a while, plus all the other stuff above. Wnt (talk) 02:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment—I ask the Director to disregard the raft of drive-by "voting" at the top. This is directly opposed to the purpose and process of FAC. Oppose—Not written to the required professional standard. The reasons given at the top for the nomination were feeble, and this is born out by the quality of the article. Here are just a few random examples.

    • "Throughout his career, his friendship and rivalry with Boston Celtics star Larry Bird were well documented, with the Lakers and Celtics winning eight NBA championships between them in the 1980s." The causality is quite unclear—just why eight wins underpinned their friendship and rivalry is beyond me. Hyphenate "well documented". Another "noun plus -ing" glitch: "with the Lakers and Celtics winning eight NBA championships". Please see exercises in fixing this here.
    • "27–1 win-loss record"—surely "win-loss" should also have an en dash.
    • "Although Johnson was recruited by top-ranked colleges such as Indiana and UCLA, Johnson decided to play close to home."—Including means you're not giving us the full list. Which others? And "recruiting" just doesn't make sense: do you mean that they attempted to recruit him?
      • To be fair, "recruit" can mean "seek to enroll" [3]. Though maybe that particular usage is unique to the United States. Zagalejo^^^ 17:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "During his sophomore season"—getting lost; can you insert a year every now and again, and then "afterwards" might be replaced by something a little more formal.
    • "he learned to share the ball better"—isn't there better wording for this? You know, sports commentary on television is such a sophisticated art nowadays that we can't get away with inferior prose in a place like this.
    • "1982-83 NBA season"—Move that linked article so it has an en dash, or pipe it here with an en dash. Same for the others. Oh, those articles do have en dashes in their titles: what's going on?
    • "Johnson teamed up with his treating physician"—what else would she do but treat him. Remove "treating".

    Plus much more. Needs a new collaborator to straighten it out; should be promoted, but not until cleaned up. TONY (talk) 11:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Note I have completed a major rewrite, which, I hope, has been able to address the concerns posted above. Perhaps it won't be enough to save this particular FAC, but I hope it's a step in the right direction. Noble Story (talk) 12:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Have you asked Opposers to re-evaluate? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm still opposing. It doesn't seem like all of my comments have been addressed. Zagalejo^^^ 05:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Did I any miss any? Which ones did I not get? Noble Story (talk) 07:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I've crossed off the issues that have been resolved. Zagalejo^^^ 07:25, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, thanks for pointing that out. I'll get to those shortly. Noble Story (talk) 08:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, I've fixed all the things you pointed out, except for the quotes from Scott and Green. There are no quotes anywhere, and I think it's ok without them. By the way, do you think you could use {{hide}} to collapse the fixed comments, and leave the ones not addressed outside? That might make the navigation a little easer. Noble Story (talk) 11:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Noble Story, no one has addressed my comprehensiveness concern above, although the prose and organization are improved. --Laser brain (talk) 17:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    If there are no exact quotes anywhere, then it's probably not worth mentioning their comments at all. But I suspect there is something available from old newspapers.
    I've used the hide function for some of my remarks. But remember that that wasn't meant to be a comprehensive list. Zagalejo^^^ 18:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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