Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manchester United F.C. 9–0 Ipswich Town F.C./archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 25 April 2020 [1].

Manchester United F.C. 9–0 Ipswich Town F.C.[edit]

Nominator(s): Harrias (talk) and The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:26, 31 March 2020 (UTC), [reply]

A dark moment in my soul. Everything Manchester United touched seemed to fly into the net. A record-breaking match which stood the test of time, only having been equalled earlier this season. The article is about as comprehensive as it gets and has seen attention from both sides of the divide so hopefully that's reflected in the tone too. A co-nom between me and Harrias, I commend this article to the community. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:26, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Support from Cas Liber[edit]

Taking a look now....

  • I must say I am not thrilled about the opening sentence (which is prety long), but I can't see an alternative so I can't consider this an actionable issue....will think on this some more.
    Split. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 13:38, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah that is better. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:33, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add a descriptor for Cantona (wasn't captain yet though...was he...)
    I added some description. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:09, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It'd be good to place the game in context with a postscript...e.g. "Ipswich continued their crap season and ended up bottom at season's end" sorry, just seen it in body. Debating whether one line in lead would be good.
    I added a couple of words into the lead. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:09, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Very little to complain aobut overall. Will look again later Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:28, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Casliber Hi, and thanks for those comments. I've done my best to address them, hopefully to your satisfaction. I look forward to any additional thoughts you may have. Cheers, The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:09, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Orrright then....I think it is all-good on comprehensiveness and prose. Can't see anything actionable so.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:33, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from JennyOz[edit]

Hi again TRM and Harrias, I'm getting less caught up by terminology, you'll be glad to hear! Here are my comments suggestions and innocent questions...

  • Mark Hughes - is wlinked twice in lede
  • were second-from-last. - hyphens necessary, or second last? Guessing this is football terminology?
    • Removed the hyphens. Just a more common construction in the UK than second last. Harrias talk 09:57, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the corresponding fixture - is that their first meeting, ie, they meet twice in a season? Just asking, no change needed.
  • Portman Road ground - is that a tautology? ie it links to the ground not the road. Maybe drop "ground" at second mention "played at Ipswich's Portman Road ground on 24 September 1994"?
  • their French international forward - wlink Forward (association football)
  • while Mark Hughes also scored two - "also" not needed?
    • Hmm, I'm not sure, I prefer it with. Harrias talk 09:57, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • No problem, when I first read it I was looking to see who else had "scored two" JennyOz (talk) 12:19, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • were relegated that season - wlink relegate, or is the term common enough worldwide?
  • Infobox - I clicked on Tilehurst but its target, Berks & Bucks Football Association doesn't mention Tilehurst, and when I visit Tilehurst, it mentions "three football teams Barton Rovers,[64] Tilehurst Panthers[65]and Westwood Wanderers." When I visit Graham Poll, there is no mention of Tilehurst or Berks. What is the connection between Poll and Tilehurst?
  • their elimination from Europe - the European league?
    • Changed to "their elimination from European competition." Harrias talk 10:00, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • the final minutes of the 1993–94 campaign - literally?
  • described by The Guardian's - wlink?
  • and look to get forward".[13] - I can't access the ref, should full stop be inside quote marks?
    • I get confused by this. In the original, it said "..and look to get forward," he said. Harrias talk 10:06, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I agree MOS:LQ can be confusing. I think the '... he said.' is part of the journalist's sentence. If "get forward" are the last words of Burley's sentence, the full stop therefore goes inside the quotation mark? JennyOz (talk) 12:19, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mark Hughes - wlinked twice in prose
  • who rolled it in from three yards - I'd hate to suggest but is a convert necessary? Surely not?
  • helped to set-up the - hyphen would be for a noun not verb?
  • The performance superceded the number of goals scored".[17] - can't access ref but should full stop be inside quote marks? Should it be spelt 'superseded'?
    • Moved the full stop inside. "superceded" was the spelling in the original, but per MOS:SIC "insignificant spelling and typographic errors should simply be silently corrected", so I have changed it. Harrias talk 10:14, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was later quoted as saying he was "praying that United wouldn't reach ten, as he felt sorry for the Ipswich manager". - this isn't a literal quote of Ferguson's words, it's Crick paraphrasing? Maybe 'he was later reported as saying', or he later said or his biographer Michael Crick noted...
    • Rephrased, how is it now? Harrias talk 10:35, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes that's good, it attributes the telling to Crick JennyOz (talk) 12:19, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "You only get three points whether you win 9–0 or 1–0".[27] - full stop inside
  • despite his manager's suggestions he be - can't access, definitely plural ie manager suggested more than once?
  • "I sensed a hat-trick was there for the taking and I was determined to get one".[18] - can't access, should full stop be inside?
    • As before, this finishes with a comma inside the quotes, not sure what's right here. Harrias talk 10:24, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was the first time for twelve years - "It" is confusing here after so many other people mentioned, maybe swap to Cole's haul/tally/five or similar?
    • Tweaked to "Cole's haul.."
  • Forrest went on to concede a further seven goals - the soccerbase ref only mentions the score, not Forrest. Add the BBC ref 4 from Forrest's article?
  • Leicester City beat Southampton by the same scoreline, albeit away from home - why "albeit"? To me saying 'even though' reads as if it was a lesser victory. Aren't away games harder to win? I reckon you can drop "albeit"?
  • Martin, Andy - authorlink Andy Martin (author) (definitely same bloke, the Ext link "Homepage" in his article shows his domain as andymartinink as does his byline in the Independent)
  • Crick, Michael - authorlink
  • References - Specific and General, is the "General" one, Record Breakers, used as a ref or is it further reading?
    • It's not used at all, and as a video of the match, I've removed it completely. Harrias talk 10:24, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1994–95 in English football template - this match doesn't appear, add notable matches line?
    • I had looked at the other two templates which have a line for "Other matches" for those with own articles. Leave it to you. JennyOz (talk) 12:19, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's my tuppence, looking forward to learning more from any replies. JennyOz (talk) 09:32, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks JennyOz. I have responded to each of your points in turn (other than the last, I'm still looking into other season templates to see if there is a "norm".) A couple are requesting further feedback, any further help you can offer would be appreciated! Harrias talk 10:35, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for all Harrias. (Apologies for not initially including your name in my opening. That was very remiss of me and I have now corrected it.) The last fiddly bits I've added to above, I will leave to you two to discuss or ignore. I am happy to now add my support. JennyOz (talk) 12:19, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from KJP1[edit]

Will get to this tomorrow. KJP1 (talk) 20:20, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notes - not started review yet. Reaction - para. 2, "Despite...despite" - replace first with "although"? / para.3, "The record Manchester United set for the biggest Premier League win". I'll also pick up the Source review on this - most are online. KJP1 (talk) 06:44, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, those two points addressed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:05, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Infobox
  • "Graham Poll (Tilehurst)" - what does Tilehurst mean? His home town, Tilehurst?
Lead
  • "and the joint biggest win either home or away" - just so I'm clear, is the other biggest win the 1892 victory over Wanderers, referenced in the first sentence of the Reaction section? If it is, all good. If it's not, then it probably needs a mention in the main body somewhere.
Background
  • "Before this match, the two teams had met 50 times in all competitions; Manchester United had the upper hand with 24 wins to Ipswich's 18. The remaining eight matches, which finished as draws, were all in the league, where it was a similar story, with Manchester United winning 20 of the teams' 45 meetings, while Ipswich had 17 wins" - Despite re-reading, I'm not getting this, quite long, sentence, and reading the cite confuses me further. It may be my poor maths, my non-specialist understanding of football, or both, but I can't work out what it's telling me. They'd played 50 times in total - with MU winning 24, to IT's 18, with 8 draws. That adds up. But then they'd played 45 times in the league, with MU winning 20, IT winning 17 and 8 draws. That adds up. So there were 5 non-league matches? But the source says 50 league matches with 57 in total? Cannot compute!
  • Yes, five "non-league" matches, ie. cup matches (4 FA Cup and 1 League Cup). And 57 in total runs up to current time. This match was held in 1995. The two clubs have since faced each other six more times. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:22, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Reaction
  • You've already dealt with my only two quibbles here.
And that really is all I can find to nit-pick over. It's well-written, engaging and, with the single exception of the query over match numbers raised above, comprehensible to a non-specialist reader. I'll add my support when I've done the Source review which will be later today. KJP1 (talk) 11:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
KJP1 I've responded above. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:22, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

Have checked all of the, accessible, online sources, which is most of them. With the single exception of Source 27 (see below), they work, they're reliable and they support the accompanying text. Some minor issues, mostly consistency of formatting below. No reason to suppose the, small number of, offline sources will not be similarly compliant. KJP1 (talk) 07:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Source 8, Observer; Sources 14/19, Irish Independent; Source 15, Newcastle Journal; Source 18, Sunday Life; Source 25, Sunday Independent; Source 33, Evening Herald - I think these are all subscription. Should they have the indicating padlock?
  • Source 27, ESPN - is this taking me to the site's current page rather than the 2014 page?
  • Bluelinking Publishers - most are, but Source 2, Racing Post; Sources 3/23, The Guardian; Source 20, The Observer; Source 21, The Independent; Sources 28/29/30/31/35/36, The BBC are not. They should probably be, for consistency. Also, the BBC sources aren't cited in a consistent way; Source 31 has BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation), but Sources 28/29/30 don't have brackets around British Broadcasting Corporation. Lastly BBC is italicised for all except Sources 31 and 36. And Sources 28/35/36 don't have British Broadcasting Corporation after BBC?
  • Source 25 - Ferguson biography - the publisher is given as Pocket Books, but the link tells me Simon & Schuster. However, Worldcat tells me it's Pocket, [2]. Not sure what to suggest.
  • From our article: "Pocket Books is a division of Simon & Schuster". The edition on Google Books was published by Pocket Books. The original edition (on my shelf) just says Simon & Schuster. I have wikilinked Pocket Books in the citation. Harrias talk 08:09, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

KJP1 thanks, I believe all of your points have now been addressed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:14, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All looking good and am signing off on the Source review. Many thanks both. I hope the article makes FA. Football generally bores me rigid but even I was swept up in the moment during the Match section! KJP1 (talk) 08:22, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from NapHit[edit]

  • "their attacking partnership of Andy Cole and Mark Hughes was not well regarded." I know it's mentioned later on in the article why they weren't well regarded, but I'd maybe add a line to state who considered this to be the case. Could simply put by pundits/journalists.
    Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:05, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • link to relegation zone
    Well "relegation" is mentioned before relegation zone, so I've linked that. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:05, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could mention each team's form coming into the match. This link from the Premier League shows the difference in form between the two teams. Think it would be worth mentioning in the background section.
    The form noted in that link is bogus. The matches are from 2002. It's some kind of error. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:05, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Despite this contrast in the fortunes of the two clubs, United had won just one of their four meetings with Ipswich in the first two seasons of the Premier League, being held to draws in both of Ipswich's visits to Old Trafford, and losing 2–1 on their first Premier League visit to Portman Road in January 1993." That is one very long sentence. I think you could split it in half where the comma after Premier League currently is.
    Yes, split, much better. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:06, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Premier League source contradicts the time of the yellow cards given in the article. I would have thought the Premier League would be the most reliable for this kind of information, or am I missing something?
    No, I think that Premier League source isn't very good at all under closer scrutiny. Neither player wore the 99 shirt, and per this RS the cards are as reflected in the article. I think I'll ditch the PL source as it's mostly crap. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:09, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • link goal difference in the reaction section.
    It's done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me, just a few nitpicks. The article is in fantastic shape, even though I'm a Liverpool fan, it was a somewhat interesting read! NapHit (talk) 14:55, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NapHit thanks for your review and kind words. Imagine being an Ipswich fan and having to re-live this time after time...! Great (inadvertent!) catch on the PL source. Anything else, don't hesitate to give us a shout. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
When the time comes to improve the 2018 UEFA Champions League Final article, I'll feel your pain! Ah, I didn't notice all the squad numbers displayed 99. Guess it was an inadvertent catch! NapHit (talk) 15:22, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NapHit If you want to give me a hand with 1977 FA Cup Final at some point, just let me know ;) (And thanks for the review!) Harrias talk 15:30, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Despite the result, I'd be happy to work on that one with you Harrias. Thankfully, I wasn't alive when it took place! NapHit (talk) 15:57, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias count me in too... The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:59, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And me. – PeeJay 21:54, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NapHit I suspect the ping has failed from before. A chance to say thank you again (and correct a typo)! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:14, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All my comments have been dealt with and I'm happy to support the article now. Great work! NapHit (talk) 15:22, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Comment from The Squirrel Conspiracy[edit]

The program cover in the infobox seems to me like a purely ornamental use of non-free content. I believe it fails the non-free content criteria.

Criteria 8 is "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."

What information is a reader supposed to glean from the program that cannot be replicated using free images and prose? It's a collage of several images of players, and if you look closely, you can also read the location and date on it. We already have freely licensed images of players, and have the location and date reflected in prose. The program itself is not discussed at all in the article.

Ideally we would be able to replace that image with a photograph from one of the tens of thousands of fans in the stands, or a media publication that's opened its archives under a free license. But in the absence of a replacement image from the match itself, leaving the infobox blank would be preferable.

The Wikipedia community as a whole has a tendency to give the image in the infobox a free pass on the non-free content criteria; there's an assumption, built into the upload wizard itself, that if you stick something in the infobox and call it the primary means of identifying the subject of an article, it's inherently justified. If Featured Articles represent the best work on the project, they need to be held to a higher standard than that, and I don't feel that an article with a dubious use of non-free content meets that standard.

Apologies, The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 21:31, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hey The Squirrel Conspiracy, there's absolutely no need to apologise. If you really believe that there's no justification for the fair use of the programme image, then please nominate it for deletion. That way the community can decide upon its relevance. I don't think FAC (this one in particular) is the place to make a call on the misuse of programme images across the project. The only way to make a real change (and to gain real consensus) would be is to get some community input on the validity of FUR on such images. Otherwise, your opposition is invalid, the images have already been reviewed and accredited. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:43, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've nominated the image in question, as well as the program covers for the other Manchester United matches with articles, for deletion. If consensus there is that the images fail the NFCC, I can replicate the FfD effort for other teams.
While you've said that my opposition is invaild, as long as the image remains, I don't feel comfortable changing it. I feel that this article, as it currently stands, does not meet FACR #3, regardless of another editor giving the images their blessing. However, if the determination by the editors that run the FAC process is that my vote doesn't have a leg to stand on, that's fair on their part. FAC is not a process I've ever been heavily involved in. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 22:11, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No problem at all The Squirrel Conspiracy, we should work this out. You probably need to start an RFC rather than multiple FFDs because your point is the same across all these images. It's a sea change you're proposing which extends way' beyond this nomination. We can happily remove the image of the programme, it has literally no impact on this FAC. Hence my suggestion you take your thoughts to a broader place. Cheers! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:16, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Squirrel Conspiracy the image has been commented out now so is there anything else you'd like us to address before you support this nomination? Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:44, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, I've struck my oppose. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 20:10, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment from Amakuru - sorry to add further image-related annoyance into the mix, but I think the licence on File:Andy_Cole_(13047502155)_(cropped).jpg may be incorrect. The original at Flickr is licensed as "Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.0 Generic (CC BY-NC-SA 2.0)", which is not one of the licences permitted for Wikimedia Commons, as it doesn't permit commercial use. The uploader has incorrectly labelled it as cc-by-sa-2.0, so unless the Flickr user later changed the licence (is that possible?) it probably isn't eligible and should be deleted. Other than that, it looks like there may be enough support already on this one but if another pair of eyes are needed, I'll be happy to do a full review as well.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:07, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru replaced. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:13, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... looks like the new one has the same issue unfortunately. It looks like the entire "Aeroflot" set uses the invalid licence mentioned above. File:AndrewCole.JPG (less good quality, obviously) looks like the only correctly licensed image of Cole currently on Commons.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:22, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like we have a couple of problems then, the image review here didn't pick that up nor did the bot which has approved the use of these files. Probably worth taking this issue to a wider forum? I'll look into other images. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:23, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru replaced. If you fancy a read, do let us know what you think. I'm not sure I've forgiven you for what happened earlier this season, but hey... The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:30, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks. It's a shame, as those were good images, but we don't really want to use them with the incorrect licence. I'll probably nominate the images for deletion on Commons anyway, unless Nikkimaria as image reviewer here thinks I've made a mistake? Will certainly have a read of the article, although I assume it's not a day you'll remember too fondly! And are you referring to the famous 1-0 Sky Blues victory at Portman Road in March? That was a great day out I'll have you know, despite the lack of pies and beer in the away-fans' concourse. The way things are going you might get the chance to exact revenge next season anyway, if they end up cancelling the season along with our five point lead at the top...  — Amakuru (talk) 11:40, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See commons:Commons:Flickr_files#Changing_licenses. Changing the license is technically possible on Flickr's end, but CC licenses are irrevocable. Unless there was some odd bug with the bot that led it to mark the licensing as consistent when it wasn't, we don't need to delete the image, although of course if we have an alternative we can choose to use it. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:53, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: yes, certainly if it was ever on Flickr with the CC-BY-SA licence then that's a permanent release under that licence. It looks like the claimed "check" of the Flickr licence by C:User:File Upload Bot (Magnus Manske) didn't actually take place though. The earliest version of the file [3], as uploaded by the now-banned Commons admin C:User:Russavia, already had the Flickr review template in place, so it might just have been copy/pasted from elsewhere. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 12:39, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, okay, hadn't spotted that. In that case we'd need to either verify that it was at some point under that license, or failing that delete it. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:04, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Anything else? Sources checked, images checked (twice), plenty of support, no outstanding actionable queries. Let me know if there's anything more we can do. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:59, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

Support from Lee Vilenski[edit]

  • Obligatory WikiCup participation notice*

All looks pretty good from my end, here's the few things I could find:

  • victory for Manchester United. - do we need to say Manchester here?
  • The source for statistics is weirdly placed. Do we not denote any other information to a casual reader as to what these mean?
  • I don't think that picture of Ferguson is from 95.

That's all I could see.Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:47, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Cass[edit]

As someone who's been to see Norwich City play, I read this today with a rival's hat on (although I'm not really a Canaries supporter). I can find no fault whatsoever, and I'm happy to support. CassiantoTalk 19:12, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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