Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mother's Milk

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:32, 31 January 2009 [1].

Mother's Milk[edit]

Nominator(s): NSR77 T

Mother's Milk is the fourth studio album by alternative rock band Red Hot Chili Peppers. This is a project I have been intending to work on since the last Chili Peppers' album, One Hot Minute, was completed and subsequently Featured in November 2007. Since then I've undergone a number of other projects and continually neglected this one but it is finally done after roughly one month of work. I elected not to nominate this article for potential GA status as I feel that process has become a useless outlet of mere waiting; it is a test not of the article's quality but of it's contributor(s)' patience. Mother's Milk did, however, receive reviews from outside eyes and it is, in my belief, ready for FAC. All questions, comments or concerns will be addressed promptly. NSR77 T 21:58, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

  • Current ref 3 (VH's behind the Music..) you need to format that ref like the other refs, with the title in ""'s, etc. As it is now, it looks like you're referencing the wikipedia articles. Also, I presume this is an episode? Further details would be useful for WP:V. {{cite episode}} is handy for this sort of thing.
  • What makes http://www.chartstats.com/index.php a reliable source?
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I replaced the source on your list with a more verifiable one and reformatted the VH1 source as well. I'm not quite sure if this satisfies your request because I'm not positive as to what you were getting at. If there are any further issues please do not hesitate to point them out! NSR77 T 16:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The VH1 thing is better, but right now, it is just a set of blue links, and there is little on it to make it clear that you're referring to an episode of a show. Maybe add "episode" after the "Red Hot Chili Peppers" or delink the band name in the note? Or both? I'm not sure why the name of the band needs to be linked in the footnotes, honestly. Yes, I know it's picky, and I'm certainly not going to oppose if you don't do anything more, but we want our notes to be clear and understandable, and when the whole note is blue .. it's not clear whether the whole thing is being linked in one link or if there are multiple links, etc. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:21, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not a problem at all! I removed the link to the band as it is unnecessary and added "episode" right after. Let me know if this has not satisfied your requests. NSR77 T 17:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good now, so that folks who don't know about the series will realise its a tv show. All done with sourcing! Ealdgyth - Talk 17:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on criterion 3

  • All media have verifiable licenses and adequate descriptions. FURs meet WP:NFCC. Awadewit (talk) 21:36, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Mother'sMilkAlbumcover.jpg - I replaced the generic FUR with Template:Album cover fur. We need a specific source for the image and the name of the cover artist, if possible.
  • File:Red Hot Chili Peppers - Knock Me Down.ogg - The purpose of use for this fair use rationale is too vague. It states that the clip "allows the reader to note a stylistic divergence that would lead to future music styles of the band". Instead, it should explain what that stylistic divergence is and what the future music style is. I would suggest something similar to what the article states about the move between punk and alternative.
  • File:ChiliPepperstour89.jpg - According to the fair use rationale, this image is in the article because "its inclusion adds significantly to the article because it illustrates (a) the subjects of the article in live performance and (b) their approach to visual and conceptual spectacle in live performance, which is pertinent to the prose of the article". However, in a quick glimpse at the section of the article around the image, I didn't see any discussion of these topics. The image appears to be merely decorative - fair use images need to be much more than that to justify inclusion. Considering that there are free images of the band available, the inclusion of this image is even more difficult to justify.

I look forward to resolving these issues quickly. Awadewit (talk) 14:56, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I noted the source of the cover art to be iTunes, which is where I took the image from before resizing it. I took your advice and used the "punk and funk rock divergence" sentence in the article and incorporated it into the Fair Use of the sound clip. As for the image, I added the information into the prose (which I had neglected to do) and used a quote from the photographer, who followed the band around since this tour, which claims it was the biggest concert he had seen them play up to that point. If you are unsatisfied with any of the additions/edits I have made please do not hesitate to point them out! NSR77 T 16:40, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article still does not discuss the band's "approach to visual and conceptual spectacle in live performance". It discusses fans stage-diving (not seen in this photo) and it discusses a single incident of members of the band diving into the audience (not in this photo). As such I do not see a reason for this photo. We do not need to see an image of the largest concert they played at to understand that claim. The closest thing to a reason for this image is seeing the entire band and audience together, but that is actually much better communicated in this quote: "People in the audience, steeped in sweat and pressing against the barricade in front of the stage, threw their arms up in unison and barked out approval of one fast, furiously-played song after another". I still think this image should be removed. Awadewit (talk) 21:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The image has been removed. If you are not satisfied further please do not hesitate to point out remaining issues. NSR77 T 21:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Striking oppose. Note: please do not strike out reviewers' comments - reviewers determine what has been addressed, not nominators. See the FAC instructions and WP:TALK. Thanks. Awadewit (talk) 21:36, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll try to squeeze in a thorough copy-edit tomorrow. One thing I can see right away is that sentences are a little too fragmented/complicated (ie, too many commas). For eg: "Flea, with Kiedis present, had jammed with Frusciante on two previous occasions—before hiring McKnight or Peligro." and "Frusciante, who, as a teenager, practiced guitar in his room for roughly twelve hours a day, altered the band's ..." But these are just nitpicks; this is another FAntastic RHCP article. indopug (talk) 14:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The rationale for File:ChiliPepperstour89.jpg doesn't say why it couldn't be replaced by a free image - could be a useful addition. Guest9999 (talk) 03:44, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. NSR77 T 17:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Um, that rationale makes no sense. People could take pictures before there were digital cameras. Awadewit (talk) 21:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:43, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, all the tools were down when I started the FAC so I forgot to check them. NSR77 T 04:18, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Good start! A wealth of information to be sure, but unfortunately a lot of prose, sourcing, and POV problems emerge just in the lead. This really needs a thorough copyedit to start before we can get to the other problems. Samples:
    • "... regrouped with the addition of John Frusciante and Chad Smith on guitar and drums." Consider "... guitarist John Frusciante and drummer Chad Smith." for parallel structure.
    • "Frusciante significantly altered the band's sound by placing more emphasis on melody rather than rhythm..." Choose either "placing emphasis on melody rather than rhythm" or "placing more emphasis on melody than rhythm".
    • Jargon such as "excessive layering" in the lead needs context or wikilink.
      • There is no Wikipedia article on "music layering". NSR77 T 20:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Returning producer Michael Beinhorn fought with Frusciante over his guitar playing as he favored heavy metal riffs and substantial distortion whereas Frusciante sought to remain original and play what he desired." Badly-written, nebulous "he favored", and shows a bias for Frusciante's POV.
      • I cut the "remain original", but Anthony Kiedis clearly states that Frusciante was attempting to remain original in his autobiography. Jeff Apter, who wrote the other source I used for this article, confirms this. NSR77 T 20:28, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The album was a greater commercial success than the Chili Peppers' past three studio records." Unclear - past three individually or combined?
      • Combined. Fixed. NSR77 T 20:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • What's the difference between a key single and a single?
    • That whole sentence mixes several ideas in a way that suggests they are related.. but not how. Does the album's gold status somehow relate to its international success? What do the singles have to do with it?
      • The sentence is attempting to relate the album's success across various platforms. The singles, gold certification and charting all have to do with the success of the record. NSR77 T 20:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "While the record was not met with the same universally positive critical reception that its predecessor The Uplift Mofo Party Plan (1987) had garnered..." Sensational claim - there were no negative reviews of that album? At any rate, the claim is not backed up here or Mofo's article with a citation.
      • Indeed, fixed. NSR77 T 20:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Laser brain (talk) 19:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - another great RHCP article. igordebraga ≠ 23:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

comments from giggy

  • "Returning producer Michael Beinhorn fought with Frusciante over his guitar playing as he favored heavy metal riffs and substantial distortion whereas Frusciante sought to play what he desired." - If you're saying what Beinhorn wanted I would say what Frusciante wanted too.
  • "seek to invite Frusciante to the Chili Peppers" - why not just "invite Frusciante..."?
  • "according to Flea, "lit a fire under our asses"" - with the disclaimer that I'm an unhip Australian, I have no idea what this means or what message it's supposed to get across
    • Its alluding to the fact that Smith was a powerful drummer. What happens when someone lights a fire under your ass? NSR77 T 20:37, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Kiedis later said the situation left" - what situation? The belief of a strong friendship?
    • The situation with Smith. Fixed. NSR77 T 20:37, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As a teenager, Frusciante had practiced guitar in his room for roughly twelve hours a day" - I don't think this is really relevant or helpful here
  • "it proved that these Peppers were more than knuckleheads with socks hanging off their cocks" - the incident the quote is referring to isn't obvious unless you already know about it - a link would be useful
    • What do you think should be linked? NSR77 T 20:37, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • The words "socks hanging off their cocks" (or say, in brackets, what it's referring to) - do we have an article that mentions the time they put socks on their cocks? Giggy (talk) 04:13, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • It was linked to The Abbey Road E.P. which is probably the best location. I personally don't feel this needs linking but it doesn't seem unreasonable that some people may be confused by the wording. NSR77 T 23:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The bassist also felt the reason the band covered the song was to pay homage to Wonder and his importance to music." - don't need to make it seem like his opinion if this was the actual reason they covered the song (so change to something like "The band covered the song to pay homage...")

Giggy (talk) 03:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - I'm still finding MoS, grammar and clarity issues that I'm convinced could be solved by a solid hour with a good copyeditor. I urge you to get this done so we can get on with it. --Laser brain (talk) 04:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have time this afternoon. Until then, I hope it is not too much to ask to be patient. NSR77 T 10:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Please consider getting a fresh pair of eyes on this. It is desperately difficult to edit one's own work after a spell. --Laser brain (talk) 15:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oh, I have no doubt in that. I asked several people to give the article a once-over and what has come out of it, more or less, is a little work here and there, but nothing substantial. Feel free to give it a copyedit yourself. I will do so right now and if you wish for me to seek further assistance don't hesitate in point it out. NSR77 T 20:37, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I gave the article another pretty thorough copyedit. Feel free to take another look over it yourself and as always you are welcome to make any edits you see fit. NSR77 T 23:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support — Article is strong in terms of content, style and sourcing. Appears to be complete. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 19:43, 20 January 2009 (UTC))[reply]
  • More comments It's getting there, but still finding problems that a fresh copyeditor would find. I made some changes but there are far too many to delineate in an FAC review.
    • I fixed some of them but got tired of looking - you need to make sure your periods are consistent when quotations end a sentence. If the period is part of the quotation, it always goes inside the closing quote. If not, you either need to put all of them inside or all of them outside.
      • Cleaned up all and made more consistent. NSR77 T 22:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • You also have mixtures of punctuation and capitalization when beginning quotations mid-sentence. They're all over the place. If the quotation continues what you were writing, you can just type a quote and begin with a lower case letter. If the quotation doesn't flow with the rest of the sentence or begins its own sentence, you have to capitalize and punctuate properly.
      • Fixed pertinent quotes. NSR77 T 22:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Promotion, release and reception - why no serial comma?
    • "The album's official launch, however, was held in New York City at a club..." I don't follow why this is a "however". Are you implying that the club was smaller than the subsequent venues they would play on tour? Please say so.
      • It is stated in the sentence before. Reiteration would be rather redundant. NSR77 T 22:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "It was not until after the band returned from the UK that "Taste the Pain" was released as a single and subsequently charted at number twenty-nine." Charted where?
    • Can we get rid of the scare quotes in "A 'clean' cover was manufactured" and use a suitable term instead?
    • In the Artwork section.. I hate to split hairs but it is her nipples that are concealed, not her entire breasts.
--Laser brain (talk) 02:00, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I didn't see anything that stood out. Lots of information. Few images but thats not too bad. It seems like most of the problems above were taken care of. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Revisiting the page at the nominator's request, I want to reiterate my opposition above: I feel the prose needs more work than can reasonably be delineated here, and I won't attempt to do so. I've already listed dozens of examples, which have been fixed, but my comment that my list was not comprehensive and the whole text needs treatment has been disregarded. Just a casual glance at one paragraph tonight revealed MoS and grammar issues. I will be happy to revisit the article after a fresh copyeditor has combed through it. --Laser brain (talk) 03:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Oppose Normally, I would not oppose, becuase this article is close enough and the remaining polishing could be done during FAC. However, FAC's backlog is such that we can't dawdle. Little glitches all over:

  • "Flea and Kiedis had jammed with Frusciante on twice prior to hiring McKnight and Peligro." What purpose does "on" serve here? "prior to"-->before.
    • Mistake, fixed. NSR77 T 19:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With a new guitarist, the Chili Peppers remained without a drummer and were forced to hold open auditions." The first clause doesn't really fit with the rest of the sentence. Maybe: "Although they now had a new guitarist, the Chili Peppers remained without a drummer and were forced to hold open auditions."
  • "Smith was a hard-hitting" What does "hard-hitting" mean here? Perhaps I am not knowledgeable with these idioms, but chances are, there are a lot of other English-speakers who would share my same confusion.
    • He hits the drums hard. I'm not sure how many ways one could word this. If you feel it is necessary to change I have no objections. NSR77 T 19:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redundancy: "would frequently be absent in order to"
  • And again: "embarked on a short tour in order to familiarize"
  • "including various concerts on the East and West Coast" "various" is vague and doesn't really tell the reader anything. Strengthen the sentence and remove it.
    • Done. Changed to "several". NSR77 T 19:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "ultimately came to resent his playing" Why not simply: "ultimately resented his playing"?
  • "Mother's Milk showcases a vast array of musical styles" Array implies "vast"; readers will assume that unless otherwise told.
  • ""Higher Ground" became another important song that helped the band achieve international success." Obviously, if it helped them to greater success, then it was important.
    • Removed word. NSR77 T 19:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""Knock Me Down" reached number six on the U.S. Modern Rock Tracks while "Higher Ground" charted at number eleven" "while"-->and, you are not really contrasting here, that is more of additional info.
    • Agreed; used "whereas". NSR77 T 19:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the band members were having difficult adapting" Wrong word.

And so on. If you can get this copy-edited before your time is up, I will happily strike my oppose. Dabomb87 (talk) 04:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Your comments have been addressed. Please feel free to point out any remaining issues! NSR77 T 19:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comment - am going through the prose (my wife's favourite band so I should help out...) - will post queries below..I think we are over the line prose-wise now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The only two "prior to"s left are in quotes. all others changed to "before"
I think I got all the "in order to"s
Sensational job on the copyedit. Thank you very much! NSR77 T 19:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Placeholder note: I will return to check up on the progress. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Questions - I'm almost ready to support, but some questions linger:
    • The beginning of the Recording and production heading talks about "pre-production" going smoothly and then transitions into talking about recording. The impression is that recording is part of pre-production, but it isn't, is it?
      • It is in some ways. Pre-production is the first step in recording an album where a band begins to write material and "lay down" (record) the basic tracks. NSR77 T 02:26, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "In April 1989, the Chili Peppers embarked on a short tour to familiarize Smith and Frusciante with the performance procedures." I'm not actually sure what "performance procedures" might be referring to. It sounds technical, like load-in, load-out, logistics.. but do you mean the way the band would perform on stage?
      • I have not been able to word this sentence correctly. What it is suppose to mean is that the band went on the tour in order to familiarize Frusciante and Smith with the whole process of being Red Hot Chili Peppers and plying songs. Perhaps you can take a stab at it? NSR77 T 02:26, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Beinhorn pushed the Chili Peppers to produce the best possible takes for each of the record's thirteen tracks with the intent of the band obtaining a hit record." I think "producing" might be a better word than "obtaining"?
      • I agree but the word is already used once in the sentence and I didn't want it to sound redundant. Again, that sentence was a hurdle. NSR77 T 02:26, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I caught several of them, but please check throughout for period placement when ending a quotation. If the quotation ends in a period, the period needs to be inside the end quote.
      • Got all the pertinent ones. NSR77 T 02:26, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Laser brain (talk) 02:14, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments A few things:

  • The sentences "The album features considerable use of distortion in the form of heavy metal guitar riffs as well as excessive layering. Returning producer Michael Beinhorn fought with Frusciante over his guitar playing as he favored heavy metal riffs and substantial distortion whereas Frusciante sought to play without the added layering" are somewhat redundant. Combine and/or condense.
    • This was a revision made by a previous copyeditor but I changed it nonetheless. NSR77 T 22:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The background section really only needs to start with the death of Hillel Slovak. Everything before that is not necessary for context, and is best left for the band article.
    • I disagree. Introducing this article with Solvak's death is an arbitrary place to begin and would require the reader to do extra research; here we give them a concise summary of the events leading up to his overdose in a mere paragraph rather than the section it takes in the Red Hot Chili Peppers article. NSR77 T 22:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's not arbitrary to start with Slovak's death, because his death was the impetus for the line-up changes. Basically just begin with something along the lines of "After the release of their third album The Uplift Mofo Party Plan, guitarist Hillel Slovak died of a heroin overdose . . ." Everything before that is unnecessary for this article. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I just don't see how three sentences are a hindrance to this article in any way. If several other editors agree and feel this should be removed then I will not object but as it is now I believe it adds to the quality of the article. NSR77 T 22:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The paragraph that introduces John Frusciante is unclear. The paragraph begins with Flea suggesting he audition for Thelonius Monster. Then the prose mentions that Frusciante jammed with Flea and Kiedis before hiring McKnight and Peligro. Then they ask him to join the Chili Peppers. Frusciante is never properly introduced; he's just there already associated with the group. Compare that with the sentences that describe how Chad Smith joined the band, which are clearer.
    • Attempted to make it clearer. Frusciante was merely acquaintances with Flea. NSR77 T 22:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • If there's going to be two different articles for Stevie Wonder's original version of "Higher Ground" and the Chili Peppers cover, you nontheless need to avoid easter egg links when linking to the articles.
    • Feel free to come up with an alternative. I don't think there is one, however. Linking "Higher Ground" twice—to two separate articles, nonetheless—would be redundant and repetitive. NSR77 T 22:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The mention of "Show Me Your Soul" and the BTO cover are superfluous, since they have nothing to do with the album.
    • They were recorded shortly after the record was released and do not fit into any other Wikipedia article, save for "Show Me Your Soul" which has its own. They are pertinent to the record. NSR77 T 22:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • No they are not, since they were recorded after the record. it doesn't belong. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WesleyDodds (talk) 07:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I supported above. Great job! Dabomb87 (talk) 23:06, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I looked through the article and didn't see the citation template used at all. I only saw the cite web/cite book templates. Where did you see it used? WesleyDodds (talk) 00:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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