Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ninian Park/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 9 November 2019 [1].

Ninian Park[edit]

Nominator(s): Kosack (talk) 15:39, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Ninian Park, a football ground that was the home of Cardiff City F.C. for 99 years. It was also the home ground of the Wales national side for many years and hosted various other events during its lifespan. I believe the article provides a comprehensive history of the ground and would hope to bring it up to FA status. I look forward to any comments. Kosack (talk) 15:39, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Homeostasis07[edit]

After reading the entire article, I have to point out that it's one of the most immaculately written articles I've read in quite a long time. I found a single typo:

Football League and development

  • The low crowd was blamed on the relatively unknown status of the opposition and the club's tie against Portuguese side Sporting CP, reigning champions of the competition,[41] in the following round attracted over 23,000 spectators, the biggest home crowd the club had played in front of for nearly two years.[44] – I'd suggest ending the sentence at ref 41, and beginning a new one with "The following round".

I'm not a football fan, but this article is genuinely informative. It seems brilliantly researched and referenced, and there's nothing prose-wise that I could complain about (although maybe you could link allotment for the casual American reader, because I'm not sure they'd know what that is). That being said, the article clearly uses British English, and is properly identified as such, so I don't see an issue in continuing with current formatting. Single typo aside (which I'm sure will be fixed anyway), I can easily support this article for promotion to FA. I hope this receives more commentary, because it's genuinely a brilliantly written article. Well done. ;) Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:43, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, I've fixed the typo and linked allotment. Appreciate it. Kosack (talk) 08:16, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review[edit]

  • No spotchecks carried out
  • Links
  • Ref 78 returns 404 error - Archived
  • Otherwise links to sources all working
  • Formats
  • Ref 53: petty, but for "Cardiff Gate..." read "Cardiff gate..." - Fixed
  • Ref 55 asks me for a subscription, which is odd because ref 53 didn't, nor does 56
  • 53 and 56 are from Gale which appears to provide the user with the ability to view the source (I've only ever accessed them while logged in so only just noticed this), although accessing the site itself is subscription based. Kosack (talk) 11:47, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 70: in common with all other WalesOnline sources the publisher, Media Wales, should be added - Added
  • Quality reliability:
  • Ref 38: what makes "Duncan Adams" a reliable source?
  • Adams is a published author on the subject of football grounds and among his publications is the Football Ground Guide. The site is his online presence. Kosack (talk) 11:47, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 80: what makes "Rugby League Project" a reliable source?
  • I'm not really sure of the credibility for this one. The information it supports is uncontroversial but I could potentially replace it if needs be. Kosack (talk) 11:47, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Otherwise, sources OK

Brianboulton (talk) 20:55, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Brianboulton: for the review. Let me know if there's anything else. Kosack (talk) 11:47, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'd replace Rugby League Project, but otherwise all OK. Brianboulton (talk) 14:08, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Replaced. Kosack (talk) 14:53, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Comments Support from KJP1[edit]

Football's not my bag, but Cardiff and the Butes definitely are. It reads exceptionally well. Comments below:

Lead
  • "in the Leckwith area of Cardiff" - the link takes me to the village, but there's also this, Leckwith, Cardiff. Not sure which is best, and oddly neither mentions NP.
  • "that was used as the home of Cardiff City F.C. for 99 years" - is the "used as" necessary? - Removed
  • "It was originally constructed with a single wooden stand and three large bankings made of ash" - got a bit confused here, thinking but ash is a wood? And not sure about "bankings". Perhaps "three large banks made of cinders"?
History - Construction and early years
  • "and Middlesbrough, held at the Harlequins Ground" - I don't know who the Harlequins were, or where their ground was? I guess they were these guys, Cardiff Grange Harlequins A.F.C., although the article says they were formed in 1935? Could we have a bit more detail?
  • The Harlequins Ground was part of Cardiff High School at the time. I've added this into the text. Kosack (talk) 14:57, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and he approached Bute Estate, a large landholder within the city," - "the Bute Estate"? - Added
  • "Lieutenant-Colonel Lord Ninian Crichton-Stuart", "Crichton-Stuart", "Lord Ninian" - he appears in all three guises in this section. The first appearance should be in full, as it is, but then I think you need to decide on Lord Ninian (as per the picture caption), or Crichton-Stuart (as per the text).
  • Dropped Crichton-Stuart for Lord Ninian. Kosack (talk) 14:57, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The ground was surrounded by large mounds of ash and slag" - here, my confusion in the lead is clarified, but I wonder if it can be done earlier?
  • Does the added link satisfy this? Kosack (talk) 14:57, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "J. Bell Harrison" - any idea what he was; local businessman, etc.?
  • Unfortantley no, the source his name comes from has no further info. A Google search throws up one or two possibilities but nothing concrete. Kosack (talk) 16:41, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
History - Football League and development
  • "sea-washed turf" - I've no idea what this was/is, beyond the bleedin' obvious, and it appears to be its only use on Wikipedia, other than one related article. Do your sources provide any explanation?
It's not far from the obvious by the sound of it. Added a bit more explanation from a book source. Kosack (talk) 16:41, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Popular Bank was expanded, and a new roof installed over its rear section in 1958" (fourth para.) and "Connies & Meaden were employed again to construct a large roof over the rear section of the Popular Bank and to extend the stand the length of the pitch" (fifth para.) - Isn't the latter repeating the former?
  • Appears to be leftover from some expansion I did, removed the first mention. Kosack (talk) 16:41, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The low crowd was blamed on the relatively unknown status of the opposition and the club's tie against Portuguese side Sporting CP, reigning champions of the competition" - this may very well be my footballing ignorance, but I don't get why the tie contributed to the low turnout. Does it mean they were playing at the same time?
  • "In the following round attracted over 23,000 spectators" - something's missing here? "they"?
  • This and the one above was caused by a sentence cut off in the wrong place. I've reworded and fixed that issue. Hopefully it makes more sense now. Kosack (talk) 16:41, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There was no common sense [...] The Grangetown Stand had to be demolished" - I'm straying into unknown MoS territory here but, if it's not the beginning of a new sentence which I don't think it is, I'm not sure the T of The Grangetown should be capitalised. - Done
History - Downscaling, closure and demolition
  • "due to crowd trouble after the match. Jeff Cooksley, Chief Superintendent of South Wales Police, commented after the match that" - I suggest losing the second "after the match". - Done
  • "A planted square was proposed at the centre of the new housing development, in the area of Ninian Park's centre spot" - do we know if this was actually constructed?
  • I can't seem to find any confirmation unfortunately. Kosack (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Structure and facilities
  • Two points about captions in this section - What's the "Spar Family Stand" (bottom left in the montage of 4). It doesn't appear to be mentioned. Is it the Canton Stand? Secondly, the caption of the black and white image makes little sense to me. What is "led" and why, rather than calling it "a football stand", which could be anywhere, don't you say it's the "Popular Bank"?
  • I've removed the sponsored name of the stand and replaced with Canton. The other caption was a botched attempt at alt text I Made earlier today, that's fixed now. Kosack (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Other uses - Rugby
  • "However, the Blue Dragons' failed to reach the top tier" - Don't think the apostrophe's needed. - Fixed
  • "Grogan's death soon after lead to the club folding after a year playing in Bridgend" - "led"? - Fixed

That's it from me. It is in great shape, and you're responding to my comments as fast as I can write the review. Looking forward to Supporting when you've had a chance to review the rest. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@KJP1: Thanks for the review, I've addressed all of the points above. Let me know if there's anything else. Kosack (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Looking good and pleased to Support. KJP1 (talk) 20:20, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick comment – I'm just getting back into the swing of things after a week's vacation and doubt I'll have time for a comprehensive review, but I did take a quick peek at the article and noticed a red link to Jack Peterson late in the body. With some digging, I found an article on a Jack Petersen who appears to be the person this refers to. It appears that he was born under the name used in this article (while fighting under the name Petersen), but regardless of which name is used in the article, the red link should probably be fixed. Best of luck with the FAC, as the article looks interesting from the portion I read. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:39, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Giants2008: Thanks for that, I thought it was odd when I couldn't find a link for him. Kosack (talk) 07:53, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Sportsfan77777[edit]

Lead

  • restricted them from joining the Southern Football League ===>>> prevented them from joining the Southern Football League Second Division
  • You should add a sentence towards the end of the second paragraph stating the maximum capacity in the stadium's history.
I had this idea myself but I've been unable to find a definite for the highest capacity that the ground achieved during its lifespan. Kosack (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Safety concerns led to it being replaced by Cardiff Arms Park as the preferred home venue for the national side. ===>>> Safety concerns led to ground's capacity being reduced and Cardiff Arms Park replacing the stadium as the preferred home venue for the national side.
  • Cardiff City's club record attendance was 57,893 during a Football League fixture against Arsenal on 22 April 1953. ===>>> Cardiff City's club record attendance of 57,893 came at the stadium in a Football League fixture against Arsenal on 22 April 1953.

Construction and early years

  • The limitations meant the club were ===>> The limitations meant the club was
  • but the facilities at Sophia Gardens were deemed inadequate for this growing support, with the site lacking turnstiles and an enclosed pitch. ===>>> but the facilities at Sophia Gardens were deemed inadequate for this growing support due to the lack of turnstiles or an enclosed pitch on the site. (Also to clarify, the site did not have an enclosed pitch, correct?)
  • Cardiff organised friendly matches against Crystal Palace and Bristol City, played at Cardiff Arms Park, and Middlesbrough, held at the Harlequins Ground, part of Cardiff High School. ===>>> Cardiff organised friendly matches against Crystal Palace, Bristol City, and Middlesbrough that were played at Cardiff Arms Park or the Harlequins Ground, a part of Cardiff High School.
  • The ground was surrounded by large mounds of ash and slag, sourced from the furnaces of local companies, used to form banking for spectators. ===>>> The ground was surrounded by large mounds of ash and slag that were sourced from the furnaces of local companies and used to form banking for spectators.
  • To secure the site, the club were ===>> To secure the site, the club was
  • One of the guarantors who had initially agreed to support the project later pulled out during development and the club's solicitor, Norman Robertson, addressed a local council meeting, stating that "there had been difficulties in obtaining promises of support" due to the uncertain state of the coal industry. ===>>> One of the guarantors who had initially agreed to support the project later pulled out during development. This led the club's solicitor, Norman Robertson, to address a local council meeting and state that "there had been difficulties in obtaining promises of support" due to the uncertain state of the coal industry.
  • Harry Bradshaw, secretary of the Southern Football League, inspected the ground ahead of the 1910–11 season and declared that Ninian Park had "the making of the finest football ground in the country." ====>>> Harry Bradshaw, secretary of the Southern Football League, inspected the ground ahead of the 1910–11 season. He declared that Ninian Park had "the making of the finest football ground in the country" and allowed Cardiff City to join the league's Second Division.
  • which attracted a crowd of around 7,000 people. ===>>> that attracted a crowd of around 7,000 people.
  • The first competitive match played at Ninian Park took place three weeks later, on 24 September 1910, with a 4–1 victory over Ton Pentre in the opening match of the 1910–11 season which attracted a crowd of around 8,000. ===>>> The first competitive match played at Ninian Park was the opening match of the 1910–11 season, which took place three weeks later on 24 September. It ended with a 4–1 victory over Ton Pentre and attracted a crowd of around 8,000.
  • In November 1910 ===>>> In November
  • one changing room and washing area meaning ===>>> one changing room and washing area, meaning

Football League and development

  • In 1920, Cardiff joined The Football League in the Second Division, helping attendances increase significantly.
  • This was partly due to the expense of replacing the sea-washed turf which had proved troublesome in the two years since it had been installed, with the playing surface being described as "treacherous". ===>>> This was partly due to the expense of replacing the sea-washed turf, which had proved troublesome and been described as "treacherous" in the two years since it had been installed.
  • the help of seed specialists Suttons to help improve the quality of the surface. ===>>> the help of seed specialists Suttons to improve the quality of the surface.
  • the board were keen ===>>> the board was keen
  • Boxing matches were soon being held at Ninian Park and the 1932 Cardiff Sports Carnival was based at the ground with the final of the 12-mile road race finishing with three laps around the stands. ===>>> Boxing matches were soon held at Ninian Park. The 1932 Cardiff Sports Carnival was also based at the ground, with the final of the 12-mile road race finishing with three laps around the stands.
I've expanded slightly to avoid the boxing remark being left as a standalone sentence. Kosack (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • they were unable to douse the fire and it destroyed the stand ===>>> they were unable to douse the fire before it destroyed the stand
  • the club's watchdog Jack and one of the club's cats ===>>> the club's watchdog Jack as well as one of the club's cats
  • in 1945 Ninian Park hosted its first European opposition when Dynamo Moscow played Cardiff as part of a tour of the United Kingdom ===>>> Ninian Park hosted its first European opposition when Dynamo Moscow played Cardiff as part of a tour of the United Kingdom in 1945
  • chosen as it was deemed to be the leading club in Wales ===>>> chosen for being deemed the leading club in Wales
  • The main stand was extended in 1947 at a cost of £9,000 with a new concrete terrace being added in front of the original seating area. ===>>> The main stand was extended in 1947 at a cost of £9,000, with a new concrete terrace being added in front of the original seating area.
  • £200,000 ===>>> A sum of £200,000 (don't start a sentence with a number)
  • and the removal of banking which severely reduced ===>>> and the removal of banking that severely reduced
  • He was taken to the ground's medical room where he received treatment, but doctors were unable to revive him. ===>>> He was taken to the ground's medical room to receive treatment; however, doctors were unable to revive him.

Downscaling, closure and demolition

  • In the late 1980s, increasing concerns over safety issues saw Ninian Park replaced as the main home venue of the Wales national side by Cardiff Arms Park, although a small number of matches were played there until it hosted its final international fixture on 13 October 1998 against Belarus. ===>>> In the late 1980s, increasing concerns over safety issues saw Ninian Park replaced as the main home venue of the Wales national side by Cardiff Arms Park. A small number of matches were played still there until it hosted its final international fixture on 13 October 1998 against Belarus.
  • over fears proposed safety improvements ===>>> over fears that proposed safety improvements
  • the Canton Stand which added ===>>> the Canton Stand, which added

Structure and facilities

  • had featured a 6 ft (1.8 m) fence to separate opposing fans and netting to stop objects being thrown until it was removed in 2006. ===>>> had featured a 6 ft (1.8 m) fence to separate opposing fans and netting to stop objects being thrown. It was removed in 2006.

Transport

  • Okay.

Other usage

  • Cardiff rugby club <<<=== Shouldn't this be capitalized?
  • The team had been founded by Cardiff City director Bob Grogan as a way of generating income by ensuring that Ninian Park was being used more frequently. ===>>> The team had been founded by Cardiff City director Bob Grogan as a way of generating income and ensure that Ninian Park was being used more frequently.
  • Initially the project proved a moderate success, having been set up at a cost of less than £50,000, ===>>> Initially the project proved a moderate success. Having been set up at a cost of less than £50,000,
  • The 1999 final of the WRU Challenge Cup was also held at the ground in which Swansea RFC defeated Llanelli RFC 37–10. ===>>> The 1999 final of the WRU Challenge Cup was also held at the ground, featuring Swansea RFC defeating Llanelli RFC 37–10.
  • which attracted crowds of more than 40,000 ===>>> that attracted crowds of more than 40,000
  • appeared at a National Youth Rally ===>>> appearing at a National Youth Rally
  • The concert had originally been scheduled for Stephen Stills but when he was unable to play, Marley filled the date. ===>>> The concert had originally been scheduled for Stephen Stills. When he was unable to play, Marley filled the date.

Records

  • only 57,510 was recorded ===>>> only an attendance of 57,510 was recorded
  • 1987 also included ===>>> That season also included

The prose is excellent, not just from a grammatical standpoint, but in terms of how easy it is to read. Will support once the mostly small grammatical issues above are addressed. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 08:01, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, let me know if you have any questions on reasons for the above points. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 08:04, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for the review, I've made a start and done the first two sections. Should finish the rest up later. Kosack (talk) 14:00, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Sportsfan77777: I've amended all of the issues you raised above and added comments on two points, one I'm unable to fulfill due to a lack of info and the other has been tweaked slightly. Let me know what you think. Kosack (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the remark on the downscaling in the lead to "drastically reduced". Supporting! Good work. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Lee Vilenski[edit]

Sorry this one dropped off my radar. I'll take a look. Shame if it failed due to lack of activity. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:22, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Not sure I like the small paragraph at the start of the lede. Could we expand merge/split? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:28, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Expanded the opening a bit more to make the opening slightly more substantial.
  • Is (commonly known as the "Bob Bank") important for the lede? Feels more like a prose thing to me. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:28, 3 November 2019 (UTC) - Removed[reply]
  • There's one citation in the infobox and it is annoying me. Can the duration of Cardiff using the stadium not be cited in the prose? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:28, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the information is covered by the general prose so I've moved the ref further down now. Kosack (talk) 19:36, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have on first look Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:28, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Lee Vilenski: Thanks for picking this up so quickly Lee, I've addressed the points you raised above. Let me know if there is anything else. Kosack (talk) 19:36, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me. Wasn't much, the lede issues was the big one - The rest isn't that much, I'll support. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:49, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator notes[edit]

I don't want to archive this because it's generated a good amount of commentary, but we're almost at the two-month mark and it doesn't have enough. It's been on the Urgents list for a while and I'll need to archive soon if it doesn't attract some more review. --Laser brain (talk) 17:57, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Laser brain: Three more editors have very kindly given their support for this now. Will this be enough to complete the nomination? Kosack (talk) 06:55, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Cas Liber[edit]

Taking a look now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cardiff organised friendly matches against Crystal Palace and Bristol City, and Middlesbrough that were held at... - why the two "and"s here?
A left over fragment from a previous fix, amended now. Kosack (talk) 02:33, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The idea of installing a greyhound racing track.. - In Australia, I'd just say "greyhound track" - Fixed

Otherwise looks sound on comprehensiveness and prose. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:51, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Casliber: Thanks for taking a look, I've fixed the two points you noted above. Kosack (talk) 02:33, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Ianblair23[edit]

Hi Kosack, an excellent article. I have corrected a few links already.

  • During the 1958 British Empire and Commonwealth Games held in Cardiff, Ninian Park hosted the show-jumping championships. add that this was an exhibition sport at these Games - Added
  • A trial event to inform 1960 Summer Olympics team selection was also hosted at the ground in May 1960. Was this a trail event for the equestrian events or for an another sport?
  • Equestrian only, I've added this in. Kosack (talk) 07:47, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from that, it is all good from me. Cheers – Ianblair23 (talk) 07:30, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Ianblair23:, I've amended the two points above. Kosack (talk) 07:47, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Kosack, I have had another read through and my comments are below:
Construction and early years
  • They were offered the ground on an initial seven-year lease with a yearly rent of £90 link Pound sterling - Done
  • Harry Bradshaw, secretary of the Southern Football League, inspected the ground ahead of the 1910–11 season sharper link to 1910–11 Southern Football League - Done
  • The first competitive match played at Ninian Park took was the opening match of the 1910–11 season, remove "took" - Done
  • Wales national football team, replacing the Cardiff Arms Park remove "the" - Done
  • It hosted its first international fixture on 6 March 1911, a 2–2 draw against Scotland in front of 17,000 spectators add a link to 1910–11 British Home Championship - Done
Football League and development
  • Linking the term manager to a list of the club's managers isn't a typical choice in football related articles. The term manager may be more pertinent perhaps? The mayoral point above is similar to this as well. Kosack (talk) 10:03, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Downscaling, closure and demolition
  • hosted its final international fixture on 13 October 1998 against Belarus change to 14 October as per this and link UEFA Euro 2000 qualifying Group 1 - Done
  • following an FA Cup tie against Queens Park Rangers link 1989–90 FA Cup#Third round proper
  • between Wales and Belgium to the Cardiff Arms Park remove "the" - Done
  • Cardiff's victory over Leeds United in the FA Cup in January 2002 link 2001–02 FA Cup#Third round proper
  • The last ever football match played by Cardiff at Ninian Park was a 3–0 defeat to Ipswich Town on 25 April 2009.[67] The final senior player to score at the ground was Jon Stead, then of Ipswich Town; the last player for Cardiff to score at the ground was Ross McCormack in a 3–1 victory over Burnley in the penultimate senior game at Ninian Park. link 2008–09 Cardiff City F.C. season#Championship
  • A photo of the new housing estate where the ground once stood would be great if you have one. - Added
Other
  • American football match featuring the Cardiff Tigers team add "in 1986" - Done
Cheers – Ianblair23 (talk) 08:27, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ian, I've implemented the majority of your points above. I've left a couple as I fear they may be bordering on WP:EASTEREGG links. Kosack (talk) 10:03, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Thanks Kosack. A superb effort! Cheers – Ianblair23 (talk) 04:00, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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