Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Planet of the Apes/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 11:21, 20 January 2018 [1].

Planet of the Apes[edit]

Nominator(s): Cúchullain t/c 23:07, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the film and media franchise Planet of the Apes, which has included a number of historically significant films since the 1960s. I've substantially rewritten it over the course of 3 years using all of major sources I've been able to identify, most importantly the two book-length treatments. I believe it covers the topic comprehensively, without going into excessive detail on the individual installments, and at long last think the prose and content are FA caliber.Cúchullain t/c 23:07, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review[edit]

  • Ref 69 - Rotten Tomatoes: the format here is different from what you show for 165, 167, 169 and others. Citations to the same source should be formatted consistently.
  • Fixed (I believe). This is a part of the article that I don't think needs to even exist, so I never paid it much attention. Let me know if I missed any.--Cúchullain t/c 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 71: Same point, re Box Office Mojo – compare this with refs 158 to 162
  • Fixed - again, let me know if I missed anything.--Cúchullain t/c 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 77: What makes this a reliable source?
  • We discussed it at WP:RSN here (the site in question used to named badassdigest.com). The consensus seemed to be that it was acceptable based on the author. However, it could be removed as it doesn't cover anything that isn't in the (much stronger) Linder and Fordham & Bond sources.--Cúchullain t/c 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 83: Is the source /Film, as here, or SlashFilm, per ref 99?
  • Good question. No clue. I changed all references to /Film as that's where the Wikipedia article is located.--Cúchullain t/c 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 86: Harvard error
  • Refs 92, 93 and others: Another inconsistency: until this point, with online sources, you have formatted both website and publisher. Here, and in several other cases, you show only the website. You need to be consistent - the publisher should always be shown.
  • Good catch. I added publisher for all the ones I found, but as usual, let me know if I missed something.--Cúchullain t/c 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 110: unformatted url
  • Ref 111: dead link ("All Game is no more...")
  • Refs 116, 117 and 119 all seem to link to the wrong site
  • 117 was mislinked, but it looks like 116 and 119 are pointing to the right place (different IGN reviews).--Cúchullain t/c 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 122 shows a different title from the source - is this the correct link?
  • It seems to be the right article, but it looks like the title has changed. I updated it.--Cúchullain t/c 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 132: What makes this a reliable source?
  • Discussions on WP:RSN seem to point to it being reliable for film criticism. Jim Emerson was the publisher of the site and a film critic for the Chicago Sun-Times.[2]--Cúchullain t/c 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 163: Dead, gives 404 message
  • Fixed. It didn't support the info anyway.--Cúchullain t/c 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 166, 168, 170, 172 and 174 are all unformatted urls
  • I'd rather just delete this section, but in the meantime I've updated the references.--Cúchullain t/c 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 178: lacks publisher and retrieval date
  • In your list of sources, you don't need to give retrieval dates for google links. The book itself is the source.

Brianboulton (talk) 18:32, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your input, Brianboulton. I believe I've fixed all the issues you've identified.--Cúchullain t/c 16:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harry[edit]

No idea why this has sat here for a month with no input. I don't have time to do a detailed review right now but hopefully will later in the week. Just from a quick look, the lead seems a little sparse for an article of this length, and you're misusing "between" in between 1970 and 1973 ("between" implies after 1970 but before 73; suggest replacing it with "from" and "to"). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:57, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, HJ Mitchell. I've changed "between" to "from". The intro is brief, but I never could think of anything else that the article covers that should be in the intro, but I'll of course incorporate anything else that's suggested.--Cúchullain t/c 19:01, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Point of information: "Between Year X and Year Y" is perfectly good English for circumstances where you want to indicate the inclusion of the named years and is, indeed, the prevailing usage for that meaning in American English. I wouldn't dare make a claim about what prevails in British English style, but it certainly appears in many UK-published texts, some of which, in fact, I've sub-edited (that's BE for "copyedited"). DocKino (talk) 00:49, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You could expand on the themes in the third lead para eg The films are apocalyptic and dystopian, and portray the era's tensions...' Ceoil (talk) 14:58, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've also been wanting to review this for a while, but I'm not familiar with the series beyond the first film and the most recent ones, so I wanted to wait until someone more familiar with the series had finished a review. Feel free to ping me when it happens, I don't think this nomination should be archived. I know a King Kong/Planet of the Apes crossover comic either exists or is in the works[3], perhaps worth a mention... FunkMonk (talk) 00:17, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Planet of the Apes/archive1 is ready for your attention, FunkMonk. DocKino (talk) 02:46, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ha! I can add that to the comics section.--Cúchullain t/c 21:36, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've got time for a proper look through now:

  • However, Boulle rejected the science fiction label for his work "However" is frowned upon at FAC and is a widely misused word. I count nine uses of it here, which is certainly too many in ~6k words of prose. Normally such a strong contradiction isn't necessary and "but" or "though" or "nonetheless" works better.
  • Fox greenlit another film "Greenlit" is a bit informal and chatty for an encyclopaedia; maybe go with "approved" or "commissioned"?
  • Might be worth explaining "development hell" very briefly in the prose rather than relying on the link.
  • Notably, executive Dylan Sellers insisted Telling a reader that something is notable in Wikipedia's voice is arguably editorialising
  • received mixed reviews, with critics generally believing Using "with" to join two clauses like that is sloppy, though it's a very common prose flaw
  • release for the PlayStation 4, Xbox One and PC in fall 2017 MOS:SEASON; also, as we're almost at the end of 2017, is there an update on this?

I'm only really looking at the prose, but I'm not fining a lot to criticise. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:08, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Harry, I'll make those changes tomorrow. Got delayed by the holidays.--Cúchullain t/c 21:36, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
These are all done. "Howevers" are reduced to 1 or 2 uses.--Cúchullain t/c 17:04, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Ceoil[edit]

Read this through over x-mass, found it very well written. Minor commtents to follow. Ceoil (talk) 15:25, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

While the article is excellent overall, and more than comprehensive on the various canonical spin offs, I think the thematic overview is lacking. In particular, I was looking to read more about how it built up its vision of a post nuclear holocaust, the films being overwhelmingly dystopian, and how that vision evolved over time. The current revision seems to skim over this unifying aspect, and would be fascinated to see more on this. Ceoil (talk) 18:07, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note I am leaning support. Ceoil (talk) 00:23, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sure thing, I can take another stab at it. I've been reviewing the sources I have, and while they discuss the themes pretty comprehensively, I'm not finding a lot that talk about the post-apocalyptic or dystopian aspects per se (as opposed, to, say, the Cold War theme). But I'll keep looking through my sources.--Cúchullain t/c 21:36, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well anyway, its a Support from me - its a fine article, tightly written, with most of the important stuff covered. Well done indeed. Ceoil (talk) 21:30, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ceoil - I'm planning one addition from Green that touches on the apocalyptic presentation, probably not exactly what you had in mind, but hopefully will help. I'll add it shortly.--Cúchullain t/c 14:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Aoba47[edit]

  • Please include ALT text for the image in the infobox. All of the images in the article actually need ALT text so please add these parts.
  • Good catch, I've added alt text to all the images.--Cúchullain t/c 22:37, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the “La Planète des Singes” section, do you think that it would be better to use the image of the first edition of book, which is used in the article on the book itself). This is more of a stylistic preference so it is really up to you, but I am just curious on why you use an image of the first American edition rather than the first edition of the book overall.
  • Well, the image isn't free, it's fair use and only marked for use in the novel's article. Someone with more knowledge about fair use requirements will have to decide this one.
  • I'm a strong fair use advocate, but I believe you've made the right choice, Cúchullain. This is an article about the franchise and you've appropriately identified the franchise as American—that framework really does tip the scales toward the free US cover rather than the (yes, foundational) un-free French cover. For sure, in a free-for-all space, the original cover would be preferable. But given a choice of two at-least-good alternatives (and both of these are no less than good), we generally do side with the free. DocKino (talk) 05:03, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would put a short descriptive phrase in front of Xan Fielding to identify him for an uninformed reader.
  • I am not certain about the phrasing in this sentence (John Chambers created the innovative makeup effects.) Who considers the makeup “innovative”? I think so attribution here would be helpful to prevent potential POV issues.

  • The source calls them that, but I've removed it to avoid stating it in Wikipedia's voice.--Cúchullain t/c 22:37, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part (In fall 1968 the producers hired), add a comma after “fall 1968”.
  • I would add a short descriptive phrase in front of Frederick S. Clarke.
  • Caesar is linked multiple times in the body of the article.
  • I had him linked once in the first mention, and again in the section on Rise of the Planet of the Apes in case readers couldn't keep track of which one he was (which would be understandable). But this can be removed if it's not seen as helpful.--Cúchullain t/c 22:37, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the “War for the Planet of the Apes (2017)” subsection, I would suggest combining the second paragraph with the first as I do not see a reason for such a short (i.e. one sentence) paragraph.
  • Do you think that the “War for the Planet of the Apes (2017)” subsection could be expanded? It seems rather short compared to the other subsections.
  • Both of these are done, I've updated the material and expanded slightly to match the other entries.--Cúchullain t/c 22:37, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would update this sentence (Titled Planet of the Apes: Last Frontier, the game is set for release for the PlayStation 4, Xbox One and PC in fall 2017.), as I think that the game has been released, at least according to the article on the game.
  • Could you possibly expand on these sentences (Several critics have written that the reboot films downplay the original series' subject matter of race, generally arguing that this is to their detriment. Others, however, write that the films incorporate racial in subtler ways.). It seems like a rather short paragraph, and it would be helpful to expand on these ideas if possible.

Wonderful work with this article. Once my comments are addressed, I will support this for promotion. If you have the time, I would greatly appreciate any help with my current FAC. Either way, have a wonderful start to the new year. Aoba47 (talk) 23:06, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've expanded it a bit, I hope it makes sense. I may polish the wording once it has a chance to settle in my brain a bit. Apologies for the delay in responding, I was working on that last edit for several days unsaved and wanted to get all of them in before responding. Thanks for your comments, Aoba47.--Cúchullain t/c 22:37, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your responses. I support this for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 00:53, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support by DocKino[edit]

I'm conducting a thorough copyedit of the article, though frankly it's already in good shape prose-wise. In terms of substance, I've been able to efficiently resolve almost all of the very few issues I've come across. Here is one I couldn't:

  • In the "Planet of the Apes TV series" section, we read, "The episodes portray Virdon, Burke, and Galen as they look for answers, aid downtrodden humans and apes, and avoid the authorities." What is it "they look for answers to"? No mystery has been established in the preceding lines, so readers won't know how to interpret this phrase. Are they looking for answers, perhaps, to how apes became intelligent? To how they subjugated humans? To how they (Virdon and Burke) passed through a time warp? Or to something else entirely? If there are multiple primary mysteries, their addition may call for the current sentence to be broken into two. That's fine; the article is tight—there are no worries about length if something needs to expand a bit. DocKino (talk) 19:27, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that's a holdover from a longer sentence that no longer makes sense. They're mainly looking for a way home, but there are a few mysteries that are covered (the show wasn't on very long by 70's standards). I've changed it to "search for a way home".--Cúchullain t/c 16:42, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved. DocKino (talk) 00:37, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And here's what I would view as a worthwhile addition:

  • I'd been thinking the War for the Planet of the Apes section felt a little cursory compared to the others. And then I noticed that, according to the metrics represented in the "Critical and public response" table at the bottom of the article, it's the best-reviewed movie in the entire history of the franchise. I believe that definitely merits a sentence in the narrative. DocKino (talk) 23:39, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see if I can find a secondary source that specifically says that. I wouldn't trust Rotten Tomatoes to compare it to the 1968 Planet, there will be many contemporary reviews that have been missed.--Cúchullain t/c 16:42, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed on Rotten Tomatoes. A search for a secondary source is it worth it, I think. I'll nose around as well. DocKino (talk) 00:37, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Even if a good-quality source making the claim is not identified (I found this, but don't love it) . . . it may simply be too soon for a quality secondary source to have appeared . . . I still believe the article doesn't quite accurately capture at present the relative acclamation War has received. At the moment, the original "earned rave reviews", Dawn "was met with critical acclaim", while War gets only a, yes, positive but more muted list of things critics "praised". Again, given the evidence of Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic (as well as, anecdotally, what I can see of the intensity of praise it's gotten from leading reviewers such as Peter Travers (here) and A. O. Scott (here; indeed, Scott put it in his top 10 of the year), I think that balance needs to be restruck. DocKino (talk) 10:36, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I added a line saying it received widespread critical acclaim, which I think is fair considering what Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic say. I'm a bit reluctant to add much more speaking to critical consensus without a good source saying that. Unfortunately both War and Dawn are too recent to have been covered in the book-length sources, but I fully expect them to be at some point.--Cúchullain t/c 21:38, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Gave it a tweak for variation in the prose. Resolved. DocKino (talk) 02:34, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

More:

  • The section on the original film, Planet of the Apes (1968), states it "br[oke] contemporary box office records." I checked a hard-copy source readily at hand, which shows that it was the seventh-biggest box office earner in the North American market in 1968, That's (a) a lot more informative than than the very general "breaking contemporary box office records." My source is old. You should find a recent one you're comfortable with and include the datum. Also (b) it raises the question, What box office records did it break? Perhaps it was the highest-earning science-fiction film to date? If so, that specific information should definitely be added—along with the fact that this record (if it was a record) was soon shattered by 2001: A Space Odyssey, which opened just two months later. DocKino (talk) 03:34, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've expanded this wording based on the two main sources.--Cúchullain t/c 16:42, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved. DocKino (talk) 00:37, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Battle for the Planet of the Apes (1973) section states that the film "received poor reviews from critics, who regard it as the weakest of the five films". As I was considering editing that to "...the weakest of the five films in the original series" for specificity, it occurred to me that it would be more informative in the long view (given the metrics in the "Critical and public response" table) to go with "...the weakest film in the entire history of the franchise." What do you think? DocKino (talk) 05:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the quoted book predates the reboot movies, so I don't know if we can use it for that. It's definitely true that it's virtually always ranked at the bottom in modern sources that rank the films, but I haven't come across a source that speaks to a critical consensus about its place across the entire film series.--Cúchullain t/c 16:42, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Resolved. DocKino (talk) 00:37, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Comics" section mentions a Malibu comic: the "Planet prequel Planet of the Apes: Sins of the Fathers". The immediately preceding sentence lists three different comic series whose titles begin with Planet. My best guess is that what you meant to indicate is that this one-shot comic was conceived as a prequel to the original Planet of the Apes film. But I shouldn't have to guess and our readers definitely shouldn't have to. Please spell out what Sins of the Fathers is a prequel to; I'll be happy to provide any warranted copyediting once you've done so. DocKino (talk) 11:39, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you're right. I've hopefully made it clear.--Cúchullain t/c 16:42, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't see an edit from you at the relevant point, so I've proposed one. See if that works. DocKino (talk) 00:37, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, guess it didn't save. I made a minor adjustment to your edit.--Cúchullain t/c 16:22, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved. DocKino (talk) 19:30, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Multiple budget discrepancies to address:
(i) Beneath: narrative—$3.4 million; "Box office performance" table—$4.67 million
(ii) Escape: narrative—$2.5 million; "Box office performance" table—$2.06 million
(iii) Battle: narrative—$1.2 million; "Box office performance" table—$1.71 million
(iv) Dawn: narrative—$170 million; "Box office performance" table—$235 million (a difference of $65 million, almost real money...) DocKino (talk) 10:53, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I hate that damn table. The numbers weren't backed up by the source given, it serious looks like someone just made them up. I've corrected it now.--Cúchullain t/c 16:22, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved. DocKino (talk) 19:30, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit complete. All substantive queries resolved. Very happy to support this fine media franchise article. DocKino (talk) 02:34, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Image review - since this already has three supports, here's an image review. The sourcing and licensing looks fine for most of the images, but this one seems to have a somewhat iffy rationale for why it's PD:[4] I have brought it up on Commons:[5] FunkMonk (talk) 03:04, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: HJ Mitchell do you have anything further to add here? If not, this may be good to go. Sarastro (talk) 21:31, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support ending spotcheck of sources -- recusing coord duties, as a bit of a fan of the franchise (initially through TV screenings, not quite old enough to have seen the original series at the movies!) I wanted to catch this before it closed...

  • Prose-wise, most of the heavy lifting seems to have been done earlier so my habitual copyedit was fairly minor, but of course let me know if you disagree with anything.
  • Re. structure and comprehensiveness, I found this a mercifully succinct and logical presentation of the franchise history in its many incarnations, but the key points I'd expect to find are there, so well done.
  • I'll take Brian's source review as read, and having walked through the image licenses myself I don't have anything to add to FunkMonk's review.
  • One action I'd ask of you is to check the duplicate links and see if they're all necessary -- this script highlights the instances.
  • Although none of the claims in the article struck me as suspect based on my knowledge of the franchise, I'd like to do a quick spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing before we close...

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:24, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source spotcheck -- a bit handicapped by the number of book sources but what I found online didn't ring alarm bells:

  • FN6b -- okay.
  • FN11a/b -- okay.
  • FN15 -- okay.
  • FN132 -- okay.
  • FN138a -- okay.

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:14, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: Given that Ian has supported and done the spot check, I think we are good to go for this now. If Harry has any further points, I'm sure these could be addressed on the talk page. Just a few other minor issues. The Andy Serkis image is the only one without alt text; for consistency it probably should have. Also, as Ian mentions, someone should check the duplinks. However, given the length of time this has been open, I see no need to delay any further and will promote now. Sarastro (talk) 11:18, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Planet_of_the_Apes/archive1&oldid=821513249"