Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Raymond Pace Alexander/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 25 November 2020 [1].

Raymond Pace Alexander[edit]

Nominator(s): Coemgenus (talk) 21:29, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Raymond Pace Alexander, a civil rights lawyer, politician, and state court judge from Pennsylvania. I wrote most of it in 2017 and it was promoted to Good Article in 2018. After adding a few sources and facts, I think it is ready for promotion to FA. Coemgenus (talk) 21:29, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SG (Support)[edit]

  • In The Death and legacy section, it appears that Leon Sullivan may have been buried alive ;) ;) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:39, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • A non-US reader might wonder who Jim Crow is. Although it is linked, a few words of explanation would help. “ ... escape from the violence that accompanied Jim Crow.“ SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:44, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • “ ... he was not yet barred” ... odd colloquialism ... not yet licensed to practice? Not yet admitted to the bar? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:45, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sandy, thanks for catching these. My corrections are here. Please let me know if you find any others. -Coemgenus (talk) 12:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Very good (I will do a more thorough read through if I find time, but the usual ... competent writing, worthy nom). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:09, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The ploy was successful" has a pejorative tone ... switch to " his plan succeeded"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:27, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, I made some minor copyedits, mostly to vary some redundant wording and fix MOS:LQ; please revert anything you disagree with. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:29, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those edits look good to me, thanks for them and for the support. --Coemgenus (talk) 12:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:RaymondPaceAlexander1943.jpg: any idea what the original source of this was? Given the date it's possible the copyright has expired. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:05, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • The details at the University of Pennsylvania archives say the photographer was G. Marshall Wilson, who died in 1998. I assumed it was still copyrighted, but if it isn't I could use a higher-resolution version of it. How could I find out? Should I e-mail Penn? --Coemgenus (talk) 12:45, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • You could try that, but the image description says this is a publicity photo and I don't see that on the Penn site - where did that info come from? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Good question. Likely my own error in 2017 when I uploaded it. I changed it to "Portrait photograph," which is what the Penn site says. --Coemgenus (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Nikkimaria: I've still heard nothing from Penn's archives about the photo. How should I proceed? --Coemgenus (talk) 14:44, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • In that case we'll need to keep it as non-free for the moment. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:13, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
            • OK. I'll update it if it becomes possible to do so. --Coemgenus (talk) 14:42, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

  • I don't know if it helps you or hurts your non-free rationale, but Alexander is pictured in the Penn yearbook for 1920 (page 18), out of copyright, here, which has some details on his address and activities. The 1943 image has the look of a shot taken for a university publication, by the way. You might want to poke around some online for Penn publications of that era, likely from the Law School or maybe Wharton. If it was, it probably wasn't copyrighted. As you suggest above, the University Archives might have information.
  • Probably hurts, if anything, but I'll add that photo somewhere in the article and see what else I can dig up. --Coemgenus (talk) 23:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " As he was not yet barred, Alexander hired an attorney to represent him." That doesn't seem a complete answer as he could have represented himself, I assume? (leaving aside the question of the wisdom of that course)
  • Yeah, that puzzled me, too. His biographer doesn't say why he hired a lawyer, I presume because he thought his education wasn't complete enough to do it himself? Not sure what I'll do about that sentence. Might be best to cut the whole thing. I'll think on it. --Coemgenus (talk) 23:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ultimately, he took a position in the law office of John R.K. Scott, a white Republican former Congressman with a small office in the city.[17]" probably you should lower-case Congressman.
  • Done.
  • "After she was convicted and sentenced to death, Alexander secured her a new trial at which she was found not guilty, a first in Pennsylvania legal history.[18]" What first was this?
  • His biographer actually calls it a "landmark," which I took to mean "a first", but maybe it wasn't? I changed to more closely summarize the original language. --Coemgenus (talk) 23:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thurgood Marshall was, I think, chief counsel to the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, not the NAACP itself?
  • The sources conflate the two, but you're right, so I made the clarification. Thanks for catching that.
That's it. Looks pretty good.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:42, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review. My corrections are here. --Coemgenus (talk) 23:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support Looks good.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:19, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - Pass[edit]

  • I notice that you combine refs for ref 41 – assuming you should do this with 76 and 77 as well
    • Done.
  • Chuck Stone has a link, I believe this is the correct person
    • Done, thanks for finding that.
  • ISBN for Petshek should be ISBN 13 not 10 (use the converter)
    • Done. I didn't know that was even an option.
  • Newspapers aren't in alphabetical order, unless you meant to do chronological? although this would be inconsistent with what you do for books & journals
    • I do newspapers chronologically based on someone telling me to in a previous FAC. I think it makes sense because many early newspaper stories don't have named authors (only one such story in this article, though).
      • Ah I see, fair point.
  • Miller (1959) should be "pp." not "p."
    • Done
  • This is optional but there's a Template:Cite interview that you could use for "Sadie Tanner Mossell Alexander Oral History" – so as to include the interviewer and subjects names clearly
    • Done. I didn't know about that template, but I'll add it to other articles I've written that reference the Philips interviews.
  • Everything else looks good – formatting wise. The only thing I would say is that you link Fund for the Republic but not the other publishers, not an outstanding issue though of course. Found no issues with reliability. Aza24 (talk) 00:00, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I did this only because it was unusual and I though most people wouldn't have heard of it (I hadn't, myself).
      • Makes sense to me.
    • Thanks for the review and the suggestions. My changes are here. --Coemgenus (talk) 13:57, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pass for source review Aza24 (talk) 01:02, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Spotchecks - Pass[edit]

Will do some soon Aza24 (talk) 00:00, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ref 4 - kind of? I don't see anything about the "western part" – unsure but it may also be worth adding that Du Bois seemed to classify this as a more comfortable part of the ward
    • 24th street is the western part of the ward, but the sentence was too complicated so I took it out and added the part about DuBois.
      • Great
  • No page number given for ref 5
    • Fixed this.
  • Canton 2010: refs 6 (a&b), 18, 35, 45, 63, 70, 71, 80 all good
  • Checked some for Canton 2008 but I forgot to record which ones, they were all fine though... Aza24 (talk) 22:40, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pass for spotchecks Aza24 (talk) 01:02, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Jr8825[edit]

A very interesting read on a worthy topic, thanks for your work.

  • Alexander also entered the political realm, unsuccessfully running for judge several times – is being a judge considered a political role in the US? (To a Brit like myself this sounds strange, but it may simply be we have different systems.) I noticed that the section below is called "Political and judicial career". Are they two separate, concurrent things? (In which case it could be written as "entered the political realm, and unsuccessfully ran for judge several times" to separate the clauses more clearly.)
    • In Pennsylvania, it is an elected, partisan position. I agree that it's weird, but it's how we do it.
  • lived in the western part of the Seventh Ward in what is called Center City Philadelphia today – I found this a bit uneven and you need a comma after Center City. Perhaps you can tweak the wording a bit?
    • I tweaked the language there.
  • gave horseback riding lessons to wealthy white people in Philadelphia and on the Main Line – how about "in Philadelphia and the affluent suburbs along/within the Main Line"? I initially read this as 'they gave horseback riding lessons along the railway tracks'. I also think the next sentence would be better joined into this one with a comma: "the Main Line, but by 1915, the emergence..."
    • Makes sense. I made the change.
  • Alexander and others credited Schnader's conversion to his recognition of – I had to read this a couple of times to follow it correctly (although I am quite tired)! Could it be spelt out more explicitly (e.g. conversion to the desegregation cause/newfound support for their campaign)?
    • Yup, done.
  • former Republicans who left their party – is "former Republicans who had left their party" better?
    • Done.
  • with funding an logistical assistance – should "an" be "and"?
    • Yes, thanks for catching that.
  • I noticed there are four redlinks. I know there's nothing inherently wrong about this, but are all 4 individuals definitely notable enough for future articles?
    • I think so, yes. I think all meet the guidelines in WP:POLOUTCOMES other than Maceo W. Hubbard, but I think he's discuss in enough sources that I could justify writing a short article about him.
  • The article alternates between "African American" and "African-American".
    • I changed them all to "African American," to match our article on the subject. The categories are still hyphenated, because they do not conform to the article. Wikipedia seems to be all over the place on this, too.
Cheers, Jr8825 • Talk 23:53, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much for the review. My changes are here, let me know if you think more need be done. --Coemgenus (talk) 15:22, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nice work, all looks good to me. Jr8825 • Talk 02:43, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Kaiser matias[edit]

  • "The Paces were a working-class family as well." This sentence feels out of place as it is, and it may be better merged with the subsequent sentence. For example "The Paces were a working-class family as well, and so with even more mouths to feed, Alexander continued working through grade school and high school to help support himself and his siblings."
    • Done.
  • The article mentions he was the first black graduate of the Wharton school, would that not be something to add to the lead? Seems like a notable thing for Alexander.
    • Good point. Done.
  • It mentions he also studied at Columbia, but did he complete those studies? I don't see anything on that.
    • He did not. Added that to the article.
  • "In a new trial before the same judge, Thomas was found not guilty, which Alexander's biographer described..." You have "Alexander's biographer" noted here, but later in the article refer to him again, but use his name ("Alexander's biographer, David A. Canton, suggests..."). Would be better to use Canton's name in the first instance ("which Alexander's biography David A. Canton described...") and then in later uses can just refer to him as "Canton".
    • Yes, good point. Done.
  • NAACP is never spelled out in the article; for the first instance it should be given the full name.
    • Done.
  • If I understand correctly he was elected to the Court of Common Pleas for a 10-year term in 1959; was he re-elected in 1969? It sounds like he was but I don't see anything about that.
    • This was actually harder to track down than it should have been. His biographer glosses over it, but Alexander was forced to retire in 1969 because of age limits added to the state constitution in 1968. I added a sentence and a citation for that.

Interesting article overall, and well-structured. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:13, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Wonder if "Death and legacy" should be a top-level heading? It doesn't really fit in with the "Political and judicial career" section.
Nicely done, happy to support. Kaiser matias (talk) 21:25, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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