Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Red-billed tropicbird/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 21:24, 23 June 2017 [1].

Red-billed tropicbird[edit]

Nominator(s): RileyBugz & Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:54, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is another bird collaboration. Two of us will answer queries pronto. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:54, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from FunkMonk[edit]

  • The "description" header in the subspecies box seems like it could be renamed. At first, I thought it contained a physical description, so could it maybe be called "naming", "scientific description", or some such? FunkMonk (talk) 15:08, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I changed it to "discovery". RileyBugz会話投稿記録 16:48, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In that box, why is there no info on the description of the nominate subspecies? I know it goes under Linneaus' original species description, but do we know what he based it on?
Need to look into this. Be good if a source said "known from antiquity" or something found some old stuff but better in chronological order - added nominate to the box to indicate it is the default I guess..... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:31, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • You don't show the egg, but perhaps the illustration of an egg could be extracted from this[2] image and used?
It is a good idea, but there are a few problems. First, I'm pretty sure that the bird in the image is actually a red-tailed tropicbird, based on the red tail and lack of barring on the back. It might be ok, then, if the egg of the red-billed tropicbird and the red-tailed tropicbird where the same, but, no. The red-tailed tropicbird's egg (at least to my eye) is a bit more white than the red-billed tropicbird's egg, even when the egg of the latter is of the more purple (and thus pale) variety. So, I don't think that it can be used. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 17:03, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ugh, in that case, perhaps leave a note on the file description page to prevent future confusion? FunkMonk (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just trying to figure out where Matilda island is...but yes, is a red-tailed tropicbird. Have made a note on the page. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:27, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would seem the status and threat sections should be subsections of the human relationsections (as in other articles), which is now hanging alone as a single sentence for some reason. I can see it is grouped like that because you have grouped all possible threats against the bird together in one section (unlike what is done in most articles). But it would make more sense to have one section for natural threats, and then leave the text about human caused threats (including from introduced species) with the status section.
Done. Not the best fix but agree is better than what we had for the reasons outlined Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:30, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The range section for the nominate need a citation.
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:52, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The legs and feet are two colours, orangey-yellow and black; the orangey-yellow colour is found on the legs, base of the central toe, and parts of the outer toes, with the black colour being found everywhere else." This seems a bit repetitive. Why not just state where these colours are, instead of listing the colours twice?
Done/trimmed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:21, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The young chicks are usually missing their tail streamers" Does this mean it is random whether they are born with them or not?
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:21, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "nd without the tail streamers that are distinctive on the adult." But you imply earlier that some have them?
  • There seems to be a mix of UK and US English, for example "grey" and "ize", check throughout and make consistent.
I Americanised it as it mostly a New World species Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:21, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps Palaearctic should be Pale?--FunkMonk (talk) 11:15, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't know it was dark he, missed that one. Got it now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The red-billed tropicbird can reach speeds of 44 kilometres per hour (27 mph) when flying out at sea,[22] cruising a minimum of 30 metres (100 ft) above the sea. [23] It is unable to walk easily on land, and requires a cliff, like those that it nests on, to take off without complications.[19] Conversely it can lift off the sea without much effort. Its plumage is waterproof and it floats on water.[22]" This seems to belong in the behaviour section.
Yeah this can be tricky...usually if there is a brief note on flight we put in Description section as it helps with identification, but when we start adding to it it starts to really go beyond that and (I agree) is better in behaviour. I had just found some more stuff to add. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:21, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and attempted breeding on the Îles des Madeleines off Senegal." They repeatedly attempt to breed there without success, or what?
Must have read the source too quickly - does breed there, according to source Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:32, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In July 2005, one was found in eastern New Brunswick, Canada, and another sighting at Matinicus Rock, Maine." The wording seems weird in the last part of the sentence. Also, why not year for the second sighing?
Couldn't find a date for the latter. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:52, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The population is declining, mainly due to use by humans" What is meant by use?
It means this now reworded Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I did a bit of tweaking to make it flow better now. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:49, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When the region that the red-billed tropicbird is inhabiting is abnormally hot when it is nesting, although, the hatching success can drop to about 35%." Something seems wrong with this sentence.
Better now? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 16:01, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd start the sentence with "though if the region...", the "although" in the middle seems a bit confusing, since it isn't clear it refers to the earlier sentence.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 17:51, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I rejigged again Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:30, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have added that Linnaeus discovered the bird, which of course isn't true (as the taxonomy section makes clear), he "only" named it and described it.
Oops, fixed. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 17:51, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A graceful bird" You don't call it graceful outside the intro, is there a source backing this up? Seems a bit hyperbolic.
what have you got againstr tropicbirds? trimmed now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:48, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are only a few unanswered points left, then I'll be ready to support. FunkMonk (talk) 18:05, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is still this discrepancy "The young chicks usually lack tail streamers" and "and without the tail streamers that are distinctive on the adult." So they sometimes have it, or do they never have it? FunkMonk (talk) 08:26, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The latter. Fixed in the text. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:47, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - every issue addressed nicely. FunkMonk (talk) 08:47, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dunkleosteus77[edit]

got 'em all.. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:30, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Sabine's Sunbird[edit]

Moral or otherwise Support. I was the reviewer for the GAN, and I've added a missing fact based on that review. One comment.

  • Nehemiah Grew cited Willughby in his 1681 Musaeum Regalis Societatis So what? Cited why/how? A bit more context needed here.Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:45, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have now trimmed that. I found the Grew reference first as it is mentioned in the OED as the first mention of tropicbird in English...Grew mentioned Willughby and so I found that with more info in it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:01, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Jim[edit]

Generally sound, but a few infelicities Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:13, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I see some inconsistency in variety of English, eg "gray", "behaviour"
I missed the second in Americanizing the article. Done now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:39, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Orangey—I'd prefer "more orange", as you have in the text
Done now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:39, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • the nest itself a scrape found on cliffs faces that are easy to fly out of. —clunky, perhaps " the nest is a scrape found on an open cliff face that is easy to fly from"
Done now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:47, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • All of the age groups of this species feed on fish and squid. —"birds of all ages…"
Done now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:56, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • the red-billed tropicbird will work with surface-feeding predators—implies conscious collaborate, actually opportunist
tweaked now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:56, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Centimetres—why spelt out at every use?
abbreviated Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spear and Ainley—No nationality or occupation, why do their views matter?
they did 15 years of field observations. I called them "researchers" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is unable to walk easily on land, and requires a cliff, —not strictly true. They can walk adequately but can't get through vegetation, so it's unobstructed access to the sea they need
the source (stonehouse) say they can't walk easily and are unable to stand. Given it is subjective, I went with the more conservative "proficient" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:23, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The chicks are fed increasingly larger quantities of fish and squid by their parent—"As they grow…"
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:23, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The nests are usually able to be flown out of directly—clunky, see above
rejigged Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • shearwaters, petrels, —links needed
linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Those changes are fine. I've seen this species on Little Tobago, where you can stand next to the nests and the adult "walked" from the nest a few metres to the cliff edge. Like fulmars and shearwaters, they are fine for short distances on flat surfaces, but can get trapped in all but the shortest vegetation. changed to support above Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:24, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
it's tricky when observations vary from written sources...thx 4 support Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:49, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Edwininlondon[edit]

I am an absolute lay person when it comes to birds. I read the lead only and then asked myself some questions and tried to answer them. Then I read the whole thing to see if I was right.

  • one of three closely related tropicbirds -> It seems there are both 3 species of tropicbirds and 3 subspecies of the red-billed, 3 and 3 unfortunately. But I didn't get this from the lead. I suspect partly because you never mention the names of the other species in the lead.
I tweaked this to clarify there are three species and three subspecies. I felt it'd be a tad overinclusive to list all species in the lead... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • distinguished from the nominate -> I don't know what nominate is. Link at least?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Three subspecies are recognized. The subspecies ... and the subspecies .. -> Because I didn't know what nominate is I found it odd that you announce 3 subspecies and then only describe 2
Added "including the nominate", and then linked the first occurrence of nominate. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 14:57, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • and the Indian Ocean -> and in the Indian Ocean?
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • cliffs faces -> cliff faces is what you have in main body
a typo. fixed now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:57, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • They are usually caught -> bit ambiguous who they refers to. How about this: "All of the age groups of this species feed on fish and squid, which are usually caught by diving from the air into the water. Sometimes, however, the red-billed tropicbird .."
I tweaked it like this, how's that? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:52, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Waldo Lee McAtee proposed -> when was this? And has it been accepted?
1945, and added. Not really taken up as the title still "red-billed tropicbird", which is a bit silly as the red-tailed tropicbird also has a red bill...(there is no source that will say it is not taken up...but the name is not mentioned elsewhere). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:54, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Column heading Trinomial name could be a link
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:57, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Allan Octavian Hume wrote -> when? in this column the other 2 rows have a year
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:57, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Description section maybe make a few more things a link: lores, mottling, primaries and tertials
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:45, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The red-billed tropicbird can be identified by its red bill -> Something to consider for this paragraph: maybe say explicitly first that there are two other species of tropicbirds, with their trinomial names, and links. Then it’s instantly obvious you will be talking about other species, not subspecies.
Added "can be differentiated from the other tropicbirds". RileyBugz会話投稿記録 14:49, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The nominate subspecies P. aethereus aethereus breeds on islands -> Bit odd that only here do you start using trinomial for the nominate, not in previous sections?
Just some different wording. Also, I expanded "P.", but that wasn't what your comment was about. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 14:52, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ascension, and St. Helena on the Atlantic Ridge, and Fernando Noronha and Abrolhos -> maybe a few of these places could be linked
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:47, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Total numbers in 2000 -> not clear what this is the total of
Made it clear. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 14:54, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • diving from the air -> where else could they dive from?
penguins and seals dive from the water to deeper water...it's that it's high in the air, but am in two minds as a subjective word that. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:47, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • this bird will work with predators -> Is this really collaboration or just opportunism?
Seems it was changed to "follows" by somebody. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:29, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • the original owners declare themselves -> Just as side note, I found it remarkable that intruders always lose
the normans didn't Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:48, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Red-tailed tropicbirds are aggressive at nest -> So the other species nest at the same places? Maybe say so. It is so easy to miss that you switch species here.
that was a typo for "-billed". fixed now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:50, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the egg cannot survive -> What are the signs that it can’t? Or do you mean perhaps "does not"?
the latter - done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:48, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relationship with humans -> While informative, is this really that’s all there is to say about the human-bird relationship? Looks a bit odd.
I looked a lot. Very hard to find anything at all. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:51, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • human exploitation of their environment, and predation by -> being a non-native speaker, I can never get where the commas go. I would not have put a comma here. Just checking if you're sure about this one.
I fixed this earlier. The comma is in fact very weird (at least as I see it). RileyBugz会話投稿記録 14:59, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Overall it seems worthy of FA status. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:17, 11 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reference formatting: overall ok.

  • there are some initials without punctation, some with
found one periodless...added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:19, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • not all publishers have a location
locations added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:17, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Edwininlondon (talk) 20:24, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review:
File:Red-billed tropicbird (Phaethon aethereus mesonauta) with chick.jpg: License and usage seem fine for me.
File:Rotschnabeltropikvogel 8-7-2008 Abrolhos (R.Graf).jpg: License and use seem fine for me. No EXIF.
File:RED BILLED TROPIC BIRD.jpg: License and use seem fine for me, my pet peeve of these "Wiki Loves Whatever" uploads with shoddy titles and descriptions nonwithstanding. No EXIF.
File:Red-billed tropicbird (Phaethon aethereus mesonauta) chick.jpg: License and use seem fine for me.
File:Red-billed tropicbird (Phaethon aethereus mesonauta) nesting.jpg: License and use seem fine for me, again.
No ALT text as far as I can see. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:44, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Thanks! I added alt text to all of the images. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 14:26, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

I saw a check of reference formatting above but can someone sign off on source reliability? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:37, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Ealdgyth[edit]

Of the folks managing the website, one is the author of bird guide books and another was the chair of a local branch of an ornithological society. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:05, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
LEaving this out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:35, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 31 is a dead link. (BND)
Well that was fortuitous, we can update the story as the critter keeps coming back... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:17, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • CUrrent ref 42 says its the Wall Street Journal, but takes me to a login scree for The Australian? It also needs a notice that a subscription is required.
Will add subscription thing. But, the URL does in fact lead to a story by the Wall Street Journal. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 14:07, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 45 is a journal or a website? Either way, it's not formatted the same as the other journals or websites used
It's a report. It uses the "cite report" format. I added some parameters Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:27, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise everything looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:27, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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