Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Secretarybird/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 15 June 2020 [1].

Secretarybird[edit]

Nominator(s): LittleJerry, Aa77zz & Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:31, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an unusual African bird of prey (trying to balance systemic bias in the process too). Three of us have worked on it (so should mean triple the speed of response) and it got a good going-over at GAN. Have at it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:31, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FunkMonk[edit]

  • Finally! Thi'sll be a placeholder for now, will review in full later. FunkMonk (talk) 10:11, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was depicted as bistarda deserti in the 13th century work" Do we have this image? Might be nice to show.
It doesn't seem so. LittleJerry (talk) 22:23, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's here[2] free. The take home message is it was first thought to be a bustard, which I think should be mentioned here. FunkMonk (talk) 10:20, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Kinzelbach black -and-white image is fairly low resolution. A scan of the original in colour is here v18. The resolution seems to be the same but colour makes it much more attractive. Unfortunately, the Vatical puts watermarks on their images (and claims copyright). I've screen-dumped the image and tried removing the watermark in Photoshop but I'm not very skilled and the results aren't wonderful. I'm also hesitant about using a manipulated image. -Aa77zz (talk) 15:00, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe not that important to show the image but I think it should be stated explicitly it was thought to be a bustard (maybe just translate "desert bustard" as the source does). FunkMonk (talk) 15:04, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
fair point - added note about bustard issue now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:11, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure the short video behind bars adds much but clutter.
ok removed video Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:24, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • We don't have photos of the chick, but perhaps this drawing[3] could be a placeholder under breeding?
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:11, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wonder if the text under captivity would make more logical sense under Threats and conservation?
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:11, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe we could show a close up of the feet under feeding? Since they are important for this behaviour, and they are barely visible in the other photos.
Ah, seems we don't have any such images. Perhaps show how it uses it feet for attack instead? We have these images:[4][5][6][7] Not great, but it gives an idea of the motion. FunkMonk (talk) 10:22, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Changes look good, this seems to be the last unaddressed point. FunkMonk (talk) 14:18, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "suggested that the species was called "Sagittarius"" And who called it that?
I've gone with "Dutch settlers" (rather than Boers). The original Dutch has Boeren the French translation has Païsan du Cap. - Aa77zz (talk) 15:19, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The French naturalist Georges Cuvier erected the genus Serpentarius in 1798,[11] and the German naturalist Johann Karl Wilhelm Illiger erected the genus Gypogeranus from the Ancient Greek words gyps "vulture" and geranos "crane" in 1811." Do we know why these other names were erected? And you should probably state they are junior synonyms.
I have been unable to find a later source that lists the current name and all synonyms - I found one source mentioning priority at least (clarifying the oldest name). I doubt we will find a source discussing why otther authors gave new names - it seems to have been a very common occurrence back then Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sometimes, the enigmatic bird Eremopezus" You should state already here that it is prehistoric or fossil.
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:48, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • State where Eremopezus was found.
Eremopezus was discovered in Egypt - BUT - embarrassingly neither of the cited sources appear to mention Eremopezus. The 2001 article here assumes Eremopezus was a large ratite but the 2001 article does compare the tarsometatarsus with that of the secretarybird's. I've deleted the sentence as I don't see how Eremopezus could ever be classified as an early relative of the secretarybird. - Aa77zz (talk) 17:03, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were not discovered in Africa but France." Just say in France then.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:49, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The French polymath Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon suggested" State when.
1780 added. - Aa77zz (talk) 15:35, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Position of the secretarybird in the order Accipitriformes." I think the caption could mention both the method sued and the date.
added "molecular phylogenetics" as method - is this what you meant?. This part of the avian tree seems solid - Prum et al 2015 obtained the same result. - Aa77zz (talk) 16:11, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the skeleton image could be moved one section down to behaviour, as it clashes with the flight picture, and has nothing to do with distribution.
moved Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:43, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "marbled grey and black colouring the base" At the base?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:01, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:10, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "one or more of the chick" Chicks?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:10, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is the purpose of the flexible crest? Since it develops so early, it doesn't appear to be of a sexual nature? But must be important otherwise? The following can't be the only function? "Their crest feathers may raise during a hunt, which may serve to help scare the target and provide shade for the face."
nothing has turned up (surprisingly), so can't really speculate Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:42, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Only with small prey items such as wasps will the bird use its bill to pick prey items directly." Awkward with double "prey items".
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:10, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to the extinct Phorusrhacidae" Perhaps say (terror birds) in parenthesis, so unfamiliar readers might recognise the name better.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 01:56, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although widespread, the species is thinly spread across" Perhaps say thinly distributed, to avoid double spread?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:10, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "call the bird Inxhanxhosi and attribute great intelligence to the bird in folklore." Double "the bird", could be "it" second time around.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:10, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it just me, or is the conspicuous crest not mentioned in the description?
Oops! Added now! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:42, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with a flattened dark crest" But it is flexible, so not always flattened?
well, it's always sort of is (compared to (say) a the crest of a cockatoo, which can be erect.) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:42, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "though it does kill snakes." Though it also? It is written as if all readers would assume to begin with that it mainly eats snakes.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:13, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "anecdotal observations and the results of localised surveys" The article body doesn't say the evidence is only anecdotal.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:13, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alternatively to the kicking image suggestions above, you could move the skeleton down to the paragraph about its legs under feeding (it shows the legs well), and under behaviour instead for example show a pair roosting in a tree as is discussed there[8][9], or a bird doing a wing threat display at a jackal.[10] FunkMonk (talk) 19:43, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 17:56, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:37, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review. - Aa77zz (talk) 07:35, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

bibliomaniac15[edit]

A couple notes. bibliomaniac15 19:11, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • I concur with FunkMonk that the short video doesn't really seem to add much to the article.
video removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:24, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In captivity should probably be moved into the Relationship with humans section at least. I think it can still be kept as its own section apart from Threats and conservation though.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:11, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
one image added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:44, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Adults are normally silent but in nuptial displays and when at the nest can utter a deep guttural croaking noise, quite unlike other diurnal birds of prey."
    • I'm not entirely clear what exactly is "quite unlike other diurnal birds." The phrasing of this sentence is also really awkward; perhaps "Adults are normally silent; however, they can utter a deep guttural croaking noise when they are in nuptial displays or at the nest"?
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 14:16, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It is a prominent feature on the coat of arms of South Africa, adopted in 2000, with its wings outstretched it symbolises growth and its penchant for killing snakes translates as a protector of the South African state against enemies."
    • This sentence sounds kind of clunky and I'm not entirely sure how to copyedit it.
I have split the sentence and tweaked it a bit. Does that help? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:41, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. bibliomaniac15 23:09, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Went for a second go-over, this time doing a source and image check. bibliomaniac15 23:09, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Images look good, with no licensing issues as I can see.
  • Spot checked the sources. I don't have journal access to scientific papers anymore, but I tried what I could. Here are some citations that might need some attention.
    • Citation 43: The statement about stamps needs some revision. First, the website cited has been updated to a different page number now, shown here, and the stamp numbers are different from the version cited in 2018, shown here.
I have updated now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:15, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Citation 36: In the article it says that the secretarybird has no cecum, but the source itself mentions that there probably is, albeit rather small (0.4-0.6 cm), and that it was mistakenly reported to have two of them.
I have changed that now. I think we can leave out as nonnotable/historical that someone in 1902 mistakenly thought there was an extra pair. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:31, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Citation 55: I revised the statement a bit to mention that the breeding and raising was specifically at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park rather than the San Diego Zoo. There's some other interesting details about the history of secretarybirds at the Zoo(s) but I don't know what level of detail you intend to go into regarding the "in captivity" section. The part about "trained" secretarybirds is perhaps something to look into.
Just digesting - will think on how much detail to add today Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:19, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any information on the general longevity of the bird in the wild and/or in captivity?
I saw that on that webpage - looking for any other info, otherwise will likley add the webpage added now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:19, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This sentence needs fixing in the breeding section: "The age at which they leave the nest is very variable but is usually around 75–80 days but can be anywhere between 65 and 106 days." bibliomaniac15 02:33, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
reowrded Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:02, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This statement in the lead doesn't really seem representative of the body text, and having the word "likely" in there is a little odd: "Rodents and grasshoppers likely form the bulk of its diet, though it also kills snakes."
changed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:07, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • After a final read-through following the changes proposed by JC, things look good. Support. Props for sticking to the collaboration almost 11 years in. bibliomaniac15 05:49, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
better late than never! thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:57, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

anonymous[edit]

  • This article contains no native African-language names for this bird. Names included should correspond to languages spoken in endemic regions.
Yes there is, see culture. LittleJerry (talk) 00:37, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are few African accounts or characterizations of the bird included in the article. Historical African accounts of the bird should be included before accounts by European colonizers.
Yes there is see culture. LittleJerry (talk) 00:37, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I question whether the Cultural Significance section, which should be central to the article, should be a subsection of the Relationship With Humans section.
Its not big enough. I don't see why that section should be central. LittleJerry (talk) 00:37, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Initial sentences in the article imply that the bird was 'discovered' by white men, which is preposterous. Please begin with an African account.
We have no information on that. Classification section are always written from a Western perspective since that's the system that is used. LittleJerry (talk) 00:37, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:36, 23 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:SerpentariusSkeleton.jpg needs a US PD tag and author date of death
Replaced. LittleJerry (talk) 17:12, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Don't see that a date of death has been added? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:00, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The image was replaced by File:Secretary bird skeleton.jpg. bibliomaniac15 01:11, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Faune_de_la_Sénégambie_(Planche_V)_BHL34755809.jpg needs an author date of death. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:23, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 17:12, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from JC[edit]

  • The secretarybird is instantly recognisable as a very large bird with an eagle-like body on crane-like legs which increases the bird's height to as much as 1.3 m (4.3 ft). - It isn't clear to me what increases the bird's height (the body? the legs? both? if either of the latter two, should be "increase"). For that matter, "increase" suggests a positive change relative to something else, so not sure that's the most precise word choice.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • We learn about Vosmaer's theory on the etymology of "Secretarius", but aren't told to take it with a grain of salt until five or six paragraphs later. Any way to bring that train of thought together?
good point and juxtaposed now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:50, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1.3 m is converted to 4.3 ft in the lede, but 4 ft 3 in in the article body. 4.3 feet rounds to 4 ft 4 in. Also some other variation between decimals and feet-inches throughout the article.
aligned. template issues. the other imperial units using the template and resulting in decimal points are inches, which seems prudent. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:17, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • so birds reaching down to the ground or drinking must stoop to do so → "so it must stoop to drink or reach the ground"? A little more straightforward, but perhaps just a matter of preference.
Well, it's obviously either activity. I have removed drinking. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:23, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • tipped with white tipping - Suggest removing "tipped"
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • although the male appears to be slightly smaller on average - Is this "appears" in the sense that it looks smaller side-by-side, or that we suspect it's smaller but can't say for sure? If the former, it's unnecessary.
I have removed size difference as there is large overlap anyway, and there is some conflicting information in the secondary sources on this. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:44, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • bluer-grey plumage - "more blue"?
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • from the coastal plains to the highlands. - Do we have anything like a highest recorded occurrence?
can't see anything Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:24, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "savanna" in Distribution but "savannah" in the lede.
aligned. spelling Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:24, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Check for consistency between spelled-out numbers and numerals. Example: Eggs are laid at two to three day intervals until the clutch of 1–3 eggs is complete.
changed all to numbers - there are so many numbers > 10 that it looks odd with numbers-as-words and I think makes it slightly less readable Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:34, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • most likely occurred further north along the Nile. - Suggest adding "than in present day" at the end.
added "in days of yore historically" as slightly more precise Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:34, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would love to see any recent conservation actions or research since 2013, but understand if none available.
nothing much coming up, sadly Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:38, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I can see to complain about. Looks good! – Juliancolton | Talk 17:33, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Changes and responses are satisfactory. Support on readability and presentation. Interesting and informative article; my compliments to the authors. – Juliancolton | Talk 02:52, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
thanks! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:43, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review. - Aa77zz (talk) 07:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Therapyisgood[edit]

  • As the oldest published binomial name should "oldest published" by hyphenated?
I can see the basis for this but that looks really odd to me Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:05, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some ornithologists place the family Cathartidae in a separate order Cathartiformes why?
This is only in for completeness - the rationale for the move is (I think) beyond the scope of the article. We can just take out the footnote altogether if it otherwise leaves readers pondering Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:14, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • More recently when?
1977 - changed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:00, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Instead, Buffon's etymology is almost certainly correct according to whom?
reworded to indicate it is Fry's opinion Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:00, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Glenn who is Glenn?
Professor Ian Glenn is mentioned a few paragraphs up Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:00, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay - I thought there was an issue with fixing image sizes but agree it is small so set at 300px. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:39, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It has been hypothesised by whom?
By this guy - have specified same Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:05, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • although this is changing as of when?
Source doesn't specifiy (I mean I'd guess and say over much of the 20th century but can't back that up) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:09, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
although this is changing according to whom? Therapyisgood (talk) 03:24, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This comes from Handbook of Birds of the Wolrd (many authors) - is unattributed in the text itself Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:07, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • due to a recent rapid decline across its entire range when is "recent"?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:59, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I read in the "Taxonomy" section that farmers would domesticate the bird to control pests but I'm surprised you don't mention this anywhere else in the article. Therapyisgood (talk) 05:26, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Only mentioned early on - not seen other mentions of it. Will take another look (now that you point it out) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:14, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you move the multiple image to the top of the "Breeding" section right below the file? It's breaking the page for me. Otherwise, if the other comment above is addressed, I'll be happy to support. Therapyisgood (talk) 04:01, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 16:22, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Sainsf[edit]

I feel I am pretty late here, amazing to see 3 supports in just 10 days :D Lovely article, thoroughly enjoyed reading. Just a few things I observed (ignoring a few points that the earlier comments have raised already): Sainsf (knock knock · am I there?) 09:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • The German biologist Ragnar Kinzelbach proposed When?
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 18:01, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Described as bistarda deserti Is this a scientific name or a Latin phrase?
Latin phrase. LittleJerry (talk) 18:01, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is a rough translation possible? Sainsf (knock knock · am I there?) 18:33, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The following words state that it was mistaken for a bustard (bistarda), deserti should be obvious. LittleJerry (talk) 21:24, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. For a moment I was unsure what it meant. Sainsf (knock knock · am I there?) 20:40, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • the species was called "Sagittarius" Why does the name start with "S"? It is not a proper noun or a scientific name is it?
Proper name, see Sagittarius. LittleJerry (talk) 20:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I thought the name would be like "crow" or "pigeon", no caps. Sainsf (knock knock · am I there?) 22:21, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Professor Ian Glenn Of where?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:24, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Icones animalium et plantarum I wonder if an English translated title can be added right after this. Just improves understanding of what the work was about. Also for the other foreign language titles. I have been told this must be done at least in the citations (using the "trans-title" parameter).
The trans title parameter is for "cite book" template. Anyhow, one of the titles translates as "Board relationships animals" which doesn't make sense in English. The others seem to be obvious (you can guess what Voyage à la Nouvelle-Guinée means). Casliber? LittleJerry (talk) 00:55, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I wanted to be clear whether the titles can be translated simply and if they are too confusing to understand (I didn't look at all of them). It can be done with "cite journal" too, which I've done often on request. Anyway, all clear now. Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 01:32, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Buffon's etymology is almost certainly correct The wording may be a bit too strong
agreed and changed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • from the Dutch "secretaris" Italics for foreign terms
agreed and changed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • speed of 2.5–3 km/hour Convert template
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 21:28, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • oldest confirmed by banding I did not get what "banding" means
Its linked. LittleJerry (talk) 21:31, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I missed that. Sainsf (knock knock · am I there?) 20:40, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Faune de la Sénégambie (Caption) Should be in italics
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 21:28, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • its population has been estimated at anywhere between 6,700 and 67,000 individuals When are these estimates from? What are the latest numbers?'
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 21:33, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • threatened by loss of habitat[54] Just a nitpick.. putting references in the middle of a line may not look so good, no harm in putting it at the end.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:32, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who is C. Hilary Fry?
He was an ornithologist at Aberdeen University. I don't know whether he was Scottish or not and I don't know whether his study was restricted to birds so paused before writing "Scottish ornithologist". Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:46, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Let's stick to just the institution name then. Sainsf (knock knock · am I there?) 18:27, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:08, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose: All the issues or points that I felt were worth discussing have been addressed and I feel the article meets FA prose standards. All the best! (Also, as I forgot to state earlier, I plan to list this review in my WikiCup submissions.) Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 01:32, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Jens Lallensack[edit]

  • Important article. I have some slight concerns about coverage, as I feel there is some more that should be added, but see details below.
Coverage of some aspects of its biology have been patchy to say the least. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:53, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • As the oldest published binomial name, it has priority over later scientific names – but this should refer only the second part of the binominal name.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 00:02, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The French naturalist Georges Cuvier erected the genus Serpentarius in 1798, and the German naturalist Johann Karl Wilhelm Illigererected the genus Gypogeranus from the Ancient Greek words gyps "vulture" and geranos "crane" in 1811. – Suggest to add a sentence explaining that these names are later found to be synonyms or similar; otherwise this is a bit without context.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 00:06, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The feet in these fossils are more like those of the Accipitridae; – Maybe add what is similar. Feet are also not described anywhere in the article, could be added in any case.
Casliber can you take this last one? LittleJerry (talk) 15:06, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looking now. Requires some reading Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:27, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay regarding Pelargopappus, it is on page 524 of this review paper by Mayr. In essence, it is " tarsometatarsus with a more strongly developed trochlea for the second toe and a more pronounced medial hypotarsal crest", which seems a bit off-topic to introduce on the page. I'll now look for foot description Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:26, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not much to find. I was able to add one thing that illustrates just how short the toes are. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:53, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • through French., – excessive dot
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 23:07, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Etymology is discussed in two separate locations (second and last paragraph of Taxonomy), this might not be ideal.
second paragraph is on the genus name. Last paragraph is on the common name. LittleJerry (talk) 15:06, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • inter-tarsal joint – link?
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 23:07, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • sub-terminal – not sure if this can be expected to be understood by a broad readership; an alternative could be "close to its end"
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 23:07, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adults are normally silent – this means juveniles are not? If so, juvenile vocals should be mentioned.
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 23:07, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I completely miss a description of the beak
Sources don't describe it other then it being "relatively weak". LittleJerry (talk) 20:26, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before starting with roosting in Behavior and Ecology, we need basic information about their social life: Are they living singular, in paris, or in flocks? When reading "roosting", I first thought about communal roosting. Maybe just adding "pair" somewhere would suffice.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:35, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • from a nestling banded on 23 July 2011 in Bloemfontein and recovered 440 km (270 mi) away in Mpumalanga on 7 June 2016 – This seems overly detailed at this point in the text, which is about age; it would be of interest under distribution, however, as an example how far they may disperse?
I felt that splitting material on banding into different parts of the article would not be a good idea. Thinking about this. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:55, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • by chasing each other with their wings up and back, much like the way they defend their territory. – The way they defend their territory was not mentioned anywhere in the article; but this should be specifically stated I think.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:38, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Their weight gain over this period is variable, from 56 g (2.0 oz) at hatching, to 500 g (18 oz) at 20 days, 1.1 kg (2.4 lb) at 30 days, 1.7 kg (3.7 lb) at 40 days, 2 kg (4.4 lb) at 50 days, 2.5 kg (5.5 lb) at 60 days, and 3 kg (6.6 lb) at 70 days. – not sure what to make of these numbers. Are these mean values from multiple individuals? Or a case study of a single individual? Isn't "variable" meaning "variable in different individuals"?
Clarified. LittleJerry (talk) 23:56, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Young can catch their first prey after 2 weeks and by 4 to 8 weeks – after two weeks from fledging or hatching?
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 23:07, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, but how can that be? They are supposed to leave the nest after 65 days of age at the earliest; how can they go to expeditions with their parents after four weeks? Seems contradictory. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 23:31, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. It is unneeded as it repeated statements at the beginning of the paragraph. LittleJerry (talk) 11:30, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon suggested that the name secretary/secrétaire had been chosen because of the long quill-like feathers at the top of the bird's neck – this needs explanation: what do have the feathers to do with a secretary?
That secretaries used quills to write things down? LittleJerry (talk) 20:26, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, found something about medieval scribe with quill behind the ears and added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:06, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Males and females can also perform a grounded display by chasing each other with their wings up and back, much like the way they defend their territory. – what role do the crest feathers play in courtship?
We couldn't find a source discussing this. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:59, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Secretarybirds specialise in stomping their prey until the prey is killed or immobilised. – "until it is killed or immobilised"?
agreed and changed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:59, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • due to a recent rapid decline across its entire range,[1] particularly in South Africa – Is the "particularly" covered by the source? This implies that the population is declining in South Africa more rapidly than in other African countries, but I doubt that these other countries make similar efforts to monitor population size.
Yes - combining the two souces in one sentence was an error. fixed now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:17, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Recent lack of sights in western Africa could be mentioned (in the Handbook of the Birds of the World Alive?), I would also mention to what degree it can adopt to landscapes transferred by human activity, see Hofmeyr (2014) source. I think these are important points.
The alteration of habitat in Kruger is mentioned, and the source does not talk in detail about elsewhere in South Africa Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:23, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • this picture would be a valuable addition, as it shows the bird in top view, this aspect is not seen in those pictures already included. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:27, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added. LittleJerry (talk) 23:44, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sainsf and Jens Lallensack, are we finished? LittleJerry (talk) 21:08, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nearly done. One of the points seem to have escaped your notice. Cheers, Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 22:54, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
By unresolved issue I meant the point about the foreign title translations wherever possible. Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 00:40, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Therapyisgood and Jens Lallensack: Are you satisfied? And did a source review get done (I do see the spot check, but nothing about reliablity...) --Ealdgyth (talk) 13:59, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BTW @Ealdgyth:, Therapyisgood is blocked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:46, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Still need a source reliablity check, I think? --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:31, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is it necessary? Casliber and I have both done many FAs and my last FA had a spot check. LittleJerry (talk) 17:21, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Spot checks aren't always necessary, but the reliablity of the sources does need checking for every article. --Ealdgyth (talk) 17:45, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah LittleJerry, no-one gets a free pass...and that's fine Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:12, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ealdgyth:, its getting close to a month since I listed the article for source reliability checking and no ones biting. LittleJerry (talk) 23:07, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Drive by comment[edit]

  • "the secretarybird occurs over a very large range". "very" seems a little WTW/POV to me. It does not seem to be repeated in the main text, so I can't check what the source says. I would suggest deleting "very"; if not, add it to the main article and source it. Cheers. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:57, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
agreed and removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:12, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

  • Formatting mostly good, a few points:
  • In many places the initials are like "A.B." while they should be like "A. B." per MOS:INITIALS.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:54, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There were some instances where scientific names were not italicized. I have fixed all that I could find, feel free to revert any changes and fix any more errors.
  • The titles in refs 20 and 22 should be italicized as it is in a foreign language
Fixed. 22 already is. LittleJerry (talk) 22:28, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I meant the chapter title in 22. I've fixed it. Sainsf (t · c) 18:14, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think ref 27 needs the mention of the country.. you generally mention just the city everywhere except Alice, where it is justified to include the country as the name itself seems obscure
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add the location for refs. 56 and 57
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any page range for ref 5?

Casliber? Aa77zz? LittleJerry (talk) 22:30, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks done, all good. Cheers, Sainsf (t · c) 18:33, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tks Sainsf -- are you signing off on the reliability of the sources as well as formatting and accurate use? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:29, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ian Rose: Yes, I am. Cheers, Sainsf (t · c) 17:55, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Secretarybird/archive1&oldid=1138471053"