Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Smiley Smile/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 10:20, 2 September 2017 [1].

Smiley Smile[edit]

Nominator(s): Ilovetopaint (talk) 13:06, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the lo-fi stoner album by the Beach Boys, which celebrates its 50th anniversary later this year.

Smiley Smile was recorded at a difficult time in the band's history, with songwriter/leader Brian Wilson in the throes of paranoia and mental illness following the cancellation of the much-hyped album Smile. Famously described by brother Carl as "a bunt instead of a grand slam", Smiley Smile was produced DIY-style at Brian's makeshift home studio with the core set-up of a detuned piano, bass guitar, and theatre organ. The songs range from drugged-out singalongs to creepy dissonance and far-off background noise.

Coinciding with highly ambitious efforts like the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper and Pink Floyd's Piper at the Gates of Dawn, the majority of critics and fans who were promised another masterwork on the level of "Good Vibrations" didn't know what to make of the album's goofy doo-wop chants and marijuana ambiance. The record came and went, and the Beach Boys were soon rejected by the maturing youth market as washed-up surf-pop relics. As the legend goes, Wilson retreated to his bed and spent the ensuing years snorting cocaine. Smiley Smile has since earned a considerable cult following, particularly among enthusiasts of indie/outsider music. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 13:06, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Bruce1ee[edit]

I've made several minor edits to the article here, here and here; these are my comments:

Lead

  • No mention is made in the lead of Brian's creative role in the Beach Boys' music, and in particular the Smile project; statements like "Following Brian Wilson's declaration that most of the Smile tapes were off-limits" and "Its production was unusually credited to "the Beach Boys" rather than Brian alone" will puzzle the uninitiated.

Background

  • Carl Wilson's quote explains how Smiley Smile came about (a homespun version of Smile) – it comes across to me as an afterthought; I feel there should be a direct statement in this section explaining what led to Smiley Smile.
The paragraphs before kinda already serve that function ("I decided not to try any more, and not try and do such great things, such big musical things. And we had so much fun. The Smiley Smile era was so great, it was unbelievable. Personally, spiritually, everything, it was great. I didn't have any paranoia feelings.").--Ilovetopaint (talk) 06:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand what the boxed quote ("Around '64 ...") has to do with this section; I can't relate it to anything in the text.

Style and content

  • The opening paragraph and blockquote: are those retrospective comments about the album or comments soon after it was released? I think that needs to be stated.

Differences from Smile

  • campfire song links to a disambiguation page – I think it should link elsewhere or the link removed.

Release

  • "You heard the last of surfing music..." in Note 9: Of interest, Hendrix also said "And you'll never hear surf music again" in his song "Third Stone from the Sun" from earlier that year, although in a different context.

Initial reception

  • There's no link for Cheetah magazine – a little on what the magazine is and where it's from would help.
I'm not sure what's to be said--Ilovetopaint (talk) 06:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see you've created an article for it – thanks. —Bruce1eetalk 10:15, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Track listing

  • Should the writing credits not say "B. Wilson" to be clear which Wilson it is?
He's the only Wilson with writing credits so it seems superfluous.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 06:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. —Bruce1eetalk 10:15, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Personnel

  • Is there nothing on each Beach Boy's contribution to the album?
    • ... and what about Paul McCartney on "Vegetables" (mentioned in the cited source)? Also, where any session musicians used? —Bruce1eetalk 15:36, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not aware of a comprehensive list of musicians that played on the album. There's a few sources for bit parts like Dennis playing Hammond on "Good Vibrations" and Jardine blowing a water bottle on "Vegetables", but the GA reviewer suggested that I remove the {{incomplete-list}} acknowledgement, so I did, and only included what the 1990 liner notes say. As for McCartney's contribution, it was unquestionably on the Smile version of "Vegetables", but I can't find an RS that makes that distinction.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 06:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

General

  • There are several quotes in the article of over 40 words – they need to be blocked quoted.

—Bruce1eetalk 13:57, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've addressed most of these issues for now and will try to trim some excessive quotations later.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 06:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks. I see you've also done some quite substantial rewrites of some of the sections. One question about the picture caption of the group in Central Park: how do you know they're performing "Heroes and Villains"? I've looked at the picture source and nowhere is there any mention of what song they're performing. —Bruce1eetalk 10:15, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
They only played six songs at Central Park: "Heroes and Villains", "Okie from Muskogee", "Forever", "It's About Time", "I Get Around", and "Good Vibrations". All of these are on YouTube. "Heroes" is the only performance that matches the photo, with Al, Mike, and Carl each singing at the same time, Mike standing still with the tambourine at his side, the positions of the backup players, and so forth. They couldn't be playing "Good Vibrations" because Mike was on theremin for that, and on "I Get Around" he didn't have a tambourine, etc. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 11:03, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Then that caption should have a source – as it stands it comes across as original research. Considering all the changes that have been made to the article since my last review, I'm going to do a second pass through it. —Bruce1eetalk 11:59, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've gone through the prose again, and I think it's looking good. Just a few more comments:
  • Lead: "Discounting the inclusion of standalone single..." – should that not be "Discounting the inclusion of the standalone single..."?
  • The two pictures are missing alt texts.
  • There are still a couple of quotes over 40 words that should be reduced or blockquoted.
  • I've made some edits here. —Bruce1eetalk 12:54, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:46, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support the prose. Thanks for your contribution to this article, and for all your hard work on Beach Boys related articles. —Bruce1eetalk 06:02, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Cas Liber[edit]

Discounting the inclusion of the standalone single "Good Vibrations" and the solo-credited "Gettin' Hungry", only one single was issued from Smiley Smile: "Heroes and Villains". - I'd flip this sentence and put the second part first. Emphasis is a bit wrong as is.
Brian declared to his bandmates that most of the material recorded for Smile was now distinctly off-limits - why "distinctly" - suggest removing...
Smiley Smile possesses a distinct signature sound - I know what you mean but it sounds puffy/advertorial...

Otherwise reads well. Nice work. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:19, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've addressed those issues --Ilovetopaint (talk) 08:43, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't do the first one but not a deal-breaker. Looks good on comprehensiveness and prose. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:15, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I missed the first part... somehow.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 14:35, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Ian[edit]

Recusing coord duties, not a big Beach Boys fan (the only track I know is "Heroes and Villains", which I don't mind actually) so I think I can be severely objective...

  • I copyedited so pls let me know if I misinterpreted anything or if you simply disagree with my wording. Other than that, happy with prose except for:
    • "...Smiley Smile was recorded in a modular approach..." -- sorry but what is a "modular approach"?
  • Overall structure looks reasonable to me, as does the level of detail.
  • I haven't gone through referencing or image licensing.

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:48, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I changed "modular" to "fragmented" and added a note explaining what the process was.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 07:36, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, tks -- that helps a lot. I expect to support assuming image and source checks come back clean. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:55, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: On that note... Have I missed an image or source review anywhere? If not, one can be requested at the top of WT:FAC. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:47, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Van_Dyke_Parks_1967.png: the magazine does include a copyright notice, on page 4
  • All three of the music samples appear to be longer than 10% of the original (see WP:SAMPLE, and contrary to description on two of them?), and all three need improvements to FUR - n.a. parameters should be filled in, and in the latter two the purpose of use needs improvement. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:14, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
samples shortened, questionable file removed, filled in n.a parameters --Ilovetopaint (talk) 01:57, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Aoba47[edit]

  • I am a little confused by the ALT text for the infobox image, as I am not entirely sure what a "smile shop" is. Would it be possible to clarify this?
  • Something about these sentences read odd to me, specifically the repetition of the word "single" (Only one single was issued from Smiley Smile: "Heroes and Villains". "Good Vibrations" and "Gettin' Hungry" were also released singles, but the former was issued a year earlier, while the latter was not credited to the band.). I would just say "were also released" to avoid any misinterpretation as the "singles" part does not seem entirely necessary.
  • Should the term "LP" in the lead and the body of the article be linked to the LP record article just to make it clear for the reader?
  • The "Media data and Non-free use rationale" box is not complete for the "Vegetables" audio sample, specifically the "Not replaceable with free media because (WP:NFCC#1)" and "Respect for commercial opportunities (WP:NFCC#2)" portions. The same comment applies to the "Fall Breaks and Back" audio sample and the "Wonderful" audio sample.
  • For the image in the "Legacy" section, I would make the caption more complete by writing "The Beach Boys performing at Central Park, 1971".

This is a really interesting article. Once my comments are addressed, I will be more than happy to support this for promotion. Wonderful work with this! Aoba47 (talk) 17:27, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

done - a smile shop is a shop that sells smiles, of course (you can get a better look at it here) --Ilovetopaint (talk) 02:06, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the response, and that makes sense to me. I support this for promotion. I apologize for the delay in my response back on here. Aoba47 (talk) 14:48, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Ceoil[edit]

This is wonderfully written and extremely well informed. Am always impressed by album articles where the context and the placing it within the trajectory of the artist/band's career comes through. This was a fascinating and gripping read, wry in the right places. Ceoil (talk) 00:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source check by Cas Liber[edit]

A'coming up....

  • References and footnotes formatted consistently. One with a date range is triggering a 'help' template that would be nice to fix...
  • FN 6 - used once, faithful to source.
  • FN 94 - used once, faithful to source.
  • FN 96 - used once, faithful to source.
  • FN 122 - used twice, faithful to source.
  • FN 70 - can't see this as it says it's private...?
  • NB: Earwig's results have some false positives due to (attributed) quotes.

Otherwise all looks in order. NB: Given the nature of the material I can understand the use of youtube. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:20, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Ealdgyth[edit]

It's not, really - removed--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just double checking, but the information it was sourcing was removed also? Ealdgyth - Talk 12:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This appears to be a screenshot of the magazine hosted on photobucket? I can't get to it, but does the photobucket account holder have permission to upload a scanned page? Otherwise it's a copyright violation. And for this magazine source - is there an author? More information would be good to help verify the source.
The article had no credited author. I found another mirror --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The main problem is whether or not the various sites have permission to reprint a copyrighted source. Otherwise, it's a link to a copyright violation and we can't have those. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I addressed this and removed such links. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's a mirror of the article cited. I don't see why mirrors can't be linked for the purpose of verifiability. As I understand it, Wikipedia is not actually hosting the copyright vios, so there shouldn't be a problem with simply linking to another web page that might be. (Same for every similar example below) --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind I've seen WP:ELNEVER and removed all infringing links --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:38, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:ALBUMS/SOURCES --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The criteria specifies "high quality", so it needs to meet a higher standard than just WP:RS. And just because a wikiproject has a list of sources doesn't mean that all those sources always meet WP:RS. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
From the Guardian (2005): "Present company excepted, much of the finest music writing these days is to be found on the internet, and American webzine Stylus is particularly good." The site is mentioned among the "25 most amazing music sites on the web". The Observer also refers to Stylus as a "respected online music publisher". I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It comes from a promotional record created by the label. I've added this info to the ref. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
??? It was an interview of Dennis Wilson conducted by Pete Fornatale that was broadcast on WNEW-FM in 1976. There is more than enough info regarding these entities. I'm not sure what else you're looking for.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 45 (Smotroff) this is on Audiophile - we need more publication details to accurately verify the information
I could not find a better source so I've removed the info (even though the fact that the stereo mix was made with digital extractions is as obvious as WP:BLUE) --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 49 (Carlos). What makes this a high quality reliable source? More publication details also needed.
Removed --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 51 - why is Rolling Stone not italicized like the other magazines?
Fixed --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLOGS: Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.
Darren R. Reid holds a PhD in history and American studies. From Reid's "about me": "My first book, Daniel Boone and Others on the Kentucky Frontier: 1769-1795, was published in 2009 and I am currently preparing for the publication of my second book, American Indian: The Life, Times, and Memoirs of John Tanner for a 2013 release. I have published articles in peer-reviewed journals and edited collections on a range of topics, from Native American issues to the history and culture of American comic books. My research interests include early American history, frontier history, Atlantic history, and Native American history. I also enjoy using pop culture as a fun means to talk about the past in my online content."
So it sounds like his expertise is in early American history - what makes his views on Brian Wilson an expert's views? Ealdgyth - Talk 12:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I replaced the Reid cite with a cite from Domenic Priore.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 69 - Pond - has an error that needs fixing.
Fixed--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 72 (Billboard) - is formatted inconsistently with the other Bilboard ref in the article...(current ref 62)
Fixed--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 81 http://www.officialcharts.com/search/artists/beach-boys/ ... shows no information on the page - I'm failing to see how it supports "When released in the UK on November 11, it performed better, reaching number 9 of the UK Albums Chart." or any of the other information in the article.
Fixed/removed --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is current ref 88 (Goldstein) not have Salon italicized like the other magazines?
Fixed --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:ALBUM/SOURCES --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
See above. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised that I'd have to make a case for Richie Unterberger, let alone AllMusic. Unterberger is one of the most famous pop/rock historians, and AllMusic has published several encyclopedic guides to rock, pop, jazz, electronic, and so forth... It's used in basically every Wikipedia album article.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed - better sources found --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not to be a pain, but what might those other sources be? Ealdgyth - Talk 12:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Domenic Priore and The Oregonian.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Mark Linett's credentials fulfill WP:BLOGS and WP:PRIMARY. He produced and engineered The Smile Sessions, so he is one of the most authoritative sources.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • With the bibliography - sometimes you give locations for books, sometimes you don't. Be consistent and either give them all the time or never.
Fixed - now consistent --Ilovetopaint (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise everything looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:26, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: I'm just waiting to hear back from Ealdgyth on these last replies. Ian, I'm not sure if you wanted another look at this as well. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm actually good enough with the above.. sorry, been busy last few days. Consider most issues addressed enough to promote. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:47, 31 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mmm, been a lot of edits over the past two weeks, even allowing for actioning the in-depth source review, so will take some time for me to review the changes -- I wouldn't oppose promotion based on my earlier prose review but wouldn't be able to support yet either. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:33, 31 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: While alt text isn't an explicit requirement, I always think that FAs should demonstrate best practice. Two images have alt text, but one doesn't. But that isn't worth holding this up over any longer. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:20, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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