This article looks great overall. I do have some concerns:
- It's good to have your review, Neelix! And so many comments! I will read each one; I will need some time to do this. Soon, I will return. Prhartcom (talk) 04:13, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Having the phrase "intensely personal" in quotation marks in the lead suggests that Hergé is being quoted, when it is in fact Harry Thompson, who is not mentioned in the lead. I recommend rephrasing this sentence to remove the quoted phrase.
- No. I'm so sorry to start this way; I am eager to accept your expert insight when I know it will make the article better but I will let you know if I believe your idea will not, and I hope the latter doesn't keep you from eventually giving your Support. I knew about the "unattributed" Thompson quote in the lead; I hadn't considered it could be attributed to Hergé. Nearly all authors in the bibliography write in some way that this was an intensely personal experience for Hergé; there's really no denying this—except that of course the voice of the encyclopedia should not make such a strong statement, only a quote can, which is why I'm quoting one of them here. We do not want to weaken the prose in this sentence. If I had written an weak sentence here you would be leaving me a note asking me to make is less wishy-washy. I considered adding a single footnote reference in the lead referencing either the one or all authors who said this and can still do so, but I decided the article attributes this exact quote to Thompson later, so I believe all bases are covered. Let me know if you think I should add the exceptional footnote and if so, to the one or all authors, which I would be happy to do. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Using quotation marks is not the way to emphasize a statement in an encyclopedia. At present, having these two words in quotation marks will be interpreted very differently by different people; some readers will take them to be scare quotes indicating that the phrase's validity should be questioned, while others will take it to be a quotation by Hergé as I did. In any case, I do not see a reason to further emphasize this phrase by way of punctuation; the rest of the sentence already serves to give the phrase emphasis, as it details why the work was intensely personal. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. You may be misunderstanding me; I meant that I intend to use a stronger voice here than what the neutral voice generally allows. I am assuming that can only be done by asking one of the biographers to say it for us, as they have greater leeway in their vocabulary. I wouldn't mind if I am wrong; it would be fine to avoid the quote marks and still communicate "intensely personal". I certainly do not think the scare quotes argument is valid. I kept thinking about this and focused on your main objection, which is that it currently says "Hergé considered it ... intensely personal" when he didn't exactly, and that is a fair point (although the other thing we say is true: ""Hergé considered it his favourite Tintin adventure.") Why don't we say, "Hergé considered it his favourite Tintin adventure while Hergé's biographers wrote of the "intensely personal" effort Hergé undertook to complete it." Let me know if that is better. Or if you have other ideas please suggest the rephrasing you are asking for. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't wish to rock the boat on this one although I find myself in agreement with Neelix on this particular instance. I think that we could remove these quotation marks without too much problem. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank-you, Midnightblueowl; I feel better already now that you are here. What can we do, what do you suggest? Prhartcom (talk) 23:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- If Midnightblueowl is recommending that the quotation marks simply be removed, I would agree that this seems to be the best option. Neelix (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think that the simple removal of the quotation marks will cause any problems, and it does have the great benefit of removing the problem that Neelix points out. So that would certainly be my recommendation although I am happy if we decide to consult other editors too. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:49, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Really? I am honestly surprised to learn it is okay to quote in the lead without quote marks, but I am willing to learn from anyone wiser than myself. I didn't think Wikipedia's unquoted voice could speak loaded language like "intensely personal" without quoting it. I don't see any mention of your idea at WP:QUOTE. And you're sure this isn't WP:EDITORIALIZING? I was ready to keep the quote marks but add a single footnote to it. Having a single footnote in the lead, while a little inconsistent, is at least encyclopedic, which I would rather prefer over any ambiguity. Midnightblueowl and Neelix, do you mind if I ask at least one other, perhaps Curly Turkey, Crisco 1492, TonyTheTiger, or Dank; whoever has a few minutes, to comment on this topic? This decision should be based on established precedent. Re-read my last suggestion above. Thanks. Prhartcom (talk) 19:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd assumed it was a Hergé quote—I'd say it's nearly impossible to assume otherwise, given that the quote isn't attributed, and no context for the quote is provided (in the lead, I mean). I understand your motivation for wanting to include it there, Prhartcom, but it's not an encyclopaedic one. The Lofficiers and Farr also describe the work as "personal", and I'm sure I've seen others do so as well. I'd drop both the quotes and the "intensely", and then perhaps throw in a line in the body summing up those who called the book "personal" or some synonym for it (should be easy). Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. I have changed it to "Hergé considered it his favourite Tintin adventure and a personal effort, as he...". No intensely. I admit that was simpler than I thought and the result actually works. Prhartcom (talk) 23:12, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks better now. I hate having single word quotes, as it is ambiguous almost anywhere. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:47, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There is no reason to leave the lead ambiguous about whether or not Hergé left his wife. I recommend rewording the phrase "a personal conflict over whether he should leave his wife..." to "his process of deciding to leave his wife..."
- Fixed. I believe you just made the article stronger. Now, at this late stage I want to change very few words to accomplish this; the word "decide", which you suggest, is the perfect word to use. I have have changed from "a personal conflict over whether he should leave his wife" to "a personal conflict while deciding to leave his wife". Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The metaphor "parade of characters" diverges from the standard tone and writing style of an encyclopedia. I recommend something more like "large cast of characters".
- Fixed. As you might imagine, some portions of this article have been endlessly tinkered with and discussed with other reviewers while trying to arrive at the correct prose, and this passage is one of them. One reviewer took exception with the word "cast", as this is not a play or show. However, I have decided to overrule them and listen to you; it now says "large cast" of characters instead of "parade". I would be interested to hear your comment on the merits of your solution vs. theirs. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I can understand the other reviewer's concerns on this front; I had not initially recognized that the word "cast" is also a metaphor in this context. Perhaps "multitude of characters" would be better, avoiding what to call a book's _ of characters entirely. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed, however not the way you asked; "multitude" is worse than "parade". The former sounds like an excessive description of the twelve or so characters in that book, and the latter really does describe how they appear in the book, one by one. Please know that I will impertinently swat back anything I believe makes this article worse (just as I will lovingly embrace anything that makes this article better). I have changed it to "large number of characters"; it's less intriguing (we tried and failed to push the boundaries) but it wins points for being understandable. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The verb tense in sentences about the text itself should follow the literary present tense, as explained here. For example, "Tintin in Tibet differed from other stories..." should read "Tintin in Tibet differs from other stories..."
- Fixed. Great catch. I agree completely and yet missed it; thank-you for spotting that one. I just looked for other errors of this type but I believe we have now caught them all. Nice Vanderbilt link! Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for making this switch. The rest of that sentence should be in the present tense as well (ie. features, is). Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. I'm so sorry, I apologise; my eyes are opened. I love that sentence now. Thank-you very much for that. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- That sentence looks great now; thanks for making those changes. The "Critical analysis" section should receive some attention in this respect as well. For example, "the literary analysis of Tom McCarthy compared..." should read "the literary analysis of Tom McCarthy compares...", etc. Neelix (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. I believe you are right. Unlike all of the History, Awards, and Adaptation sections, all of the Critical Analysis section takes place in the present tense. Is that what you are saying? I never noticed before that this should be the case. We should now return to other FA and GA Tintin articles and correct this, actually. For this article, a total of 16 small changes were required in this section and they all have been made. The changes were all similar; "Assouline called" changed to "Assouline calls" and "He also suggested" changed to "He also suggests". Please check this work and ensure we caught them all. Prhartcom (talk) 19:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Could you clarify why "Tintin believes that his friend Chang Chong-Chen is badly injured and calling for help" and why "Tharkey believes that Tintin saw the Yeti"? The text does not currently suggest any reason that they came to believe these things.
- Fixed the first point, please check and reply with your thoughts. I see what you mean, I appreciate that you pointed this out, and I agree that this needs explanation, as we do mention extrasensory perception later in the article without enough context here. It is important to only add a few strategic words to this carefully condensed synopsis, though, for reasons I'm sure you are aware, without losing any of the power of the existing prose. I changed to: "Tintin believes that he can see his friend Chang Chong-Chen, badly injured and calling for help"; italic words are newly inserted, the comma is new and replaces the deleted verb "is". Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- How would you feel about wording it "Tintin has a vision of his friend..." The sentence as currently written suggests that Tintin can see Chang in a photograph accompanying the news report. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. So much clearer and better, and is now going to tie in so much better when we later mention ESP. We have a new problem: Three sentences in a row beginning with "Tintin [verb]." I changed our middle sentence from "Tintin has" to "He then has"; I think that fixed it. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- No, for your second point there is nothing to fix. We clearly say "after glimpsing a silhouette in the snow" and in the next sentence explain that Tharkey "believes that Tintin saw the Yeti." Maybe I'm missing what you are saying. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Silhouettes can depict lots of things other than people, and, without further clarification, this statement suggests that the silhouette is of the cave rather than of a human-like figure. How about "after glimpsing what seems to be a human silhouette in the snow"? Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. Ah, so I was missing what you were saying! Thanks for the clarification. I see now exactly what you mean, and I agree. I see that the extra words do not appear draw any energy at all, they add it. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The word "whilst" seems unnecessarily formal in a place where "while" will do.
- Fixed. Please consider, however, that in North America, where you and I live, this word is considered formal as you say, but this article is written in UK English. Wiktionary does not use the word "formal" when defining this word in UK English, so it may not be considered the way you think. Regardless, I have changed it. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- As a native speaker of British English, I don't think that it matters much if we replace "whilst" with "while"; they are synonyms anyway. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:49, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank-you, Midnightblueowl; as I suspected, either one would work, so the change wasn't necessary, but it is fine this way too. Prhartcom (talk) 19:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It would be good to be more explicit about how Tintin and Haddock are saved when climbing the cliff wall.
- No. You're asking me again to add more plot synopsis, after I worked hard to condense the prose. This particular suggestion of yours is unreasonable; any attempt to solve it would result in a clumsy and less powerful synopsis, as we clearly state that Tharkey has returned (so that is how they were saved). Besides, even Hergé skips the part about Tharkey actually climbing up and rescuing them; it's obvious that he does and as it's not in the story there is no plot to explicitly summarise. However, I notice we didn't clearly say Tharkey had previously abandoned them, which was made clear in the plot. If we carefully add that to the synopsis, then this should add more impact to Tharkey's return and should achieve the solution your instincts feel is missing. I have changed the previous sentence from "and continues on with the Captain" to "and continues on with only the Captain". What do you think? Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The phrase "who has returned" is only marginally shorter than "who returns and rescues them". This seems like a key plot development that would be confusing to readers to omit. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed, however not the way you asked. No, we don't see that happening in the story, so it would be wrong to summarise it, as I said. Please carefully check the things you want; I believe you overreach a little. Getting back to my idea, a little earlier in the plot synopsis, what do you think about even further expressing that Tharkey has left by changing "and convinces him to abandon his friend" to "and convinces him to abandon his friend and return with him to Nepal"? Does that solve the issue you raised? Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't. The book doesn't show exactly how Tharkey rescues Tintin and Haddock, but it shows Tintin and Haddock in a state of being returned to safety. How would you feel about rewording the sentence about losing the tent as follows: "Once they are out of immediate danger, their circumstances force them to trek onwards because they have lost their tent and are therefore unable to sleep lest they freeze. They arrive within sight of the Buddhist monastery of Khor-Biyong before collapsing from exhaustion."? I find the present wording and juxtaposition of these sentences very confusing, and I think many other readers would find it so as well. Neelix (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed, however not the way you asked. "Onwards because they have lost their tent and are therefore..."? That's terrible. But I do respect that you believe that we have not solved the problem, so by all means let's solve it. I returned to your previous, better, suggestion and believe I improved it without sacrificing integrity, and I also added a bit of transition to the sentence following. I have changed it to, "alerting Tharkey, "who has returned in time to rescue them. They try to camp for the night but lose their tent and must trek onwards..." Prhartcom (talk) 19:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The phrase "Hergé came to realise that retracing old ground would be a step backward" suggests that he was right in his belief, but we aren't in a place to make that call. I recommend rewording to "Hergé came to believe that..."
- Fixed, in the way you suggest. That's a fair observation. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Is M. Boullock A Disparu commonly known in English as The Disappearance of Mr Boullock? That is not a direct translation of the French title, and it also differs from the English title given on the Jacques Van Melkebeke article (Mr. Boullock's Disappearance).
- Fixed. Good Tintinophile call, there. The Melkebeke article has it right; it's Mr. Boullock's Disappearance, according to a reliable Tintin source (Peeters 2012). Midnightblueowl originally added the incorrect English title in 2011, but only because the only available source then (Lofficier 2002) actually published the incorrect English title. I never noticed this in my research and copy editing. I checked for other occurrences of this kind of error but I believe this was the last. (Funny note: I remember, while editing this article, fixing what someone called the "Truth of Light" Award. Similar kind of "backwards is forwards" thing.) Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In the phrase "Bernard Heuvelmans, a cryptozoologist who had helped him envision...", the word "him" is ambiguous. I recommend switching around the words "him" and "Hergé" in this sentence for clarity.
The article characterizes the option to not leave his wife as being in keeping with Scout Law, so stating that "In the end, Hergé decided to follow the Scout Law: 'A scout smiles and sings through all his difficulties'" is very confusing as a sentence to preface the statement that he decided to leave his wife. I recommend simply removing this sentence; the three words "In the end" can be added to the subsequent sentence.
- No. I see the point you are making, but unbelievably or not, this last scout reference is fact and is documented in multiple sources (I believe Hergé stated it in the Numa Sadoul interview). I believe it means he fell back on what was familiar; a Scout Law, even as he was probably breaking another Scout Law in the process by leaving his wife. I understand it is conflicting; I'm sure it was very conflicting for Hergé. I'm not deleting prose in a futile attempt to change reality. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not attempting to change reality; I am indicating that the prose is unclear. Starting this sentence with the words "In the end" suggests that this sentence will be the one to indicate whether or not Hergé decided to leave his wife, but it is not. "In the end" would be a more appropriate beginning for the subsequent sentence. The quotation about following the Scout Law would be much less confusing after the sentence about leaving his wife, and phrased "While believing that he was breaking the Scout's word of honour to Germaine, he believed that he was following the Scout Law..." Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree on this point; I think Neelix's proposed wording is a little clearer and is more encylopedic, if perhaps a little less engaging, in general tone. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:49, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. I returned to your first idea and have simply cut the sentence, "Hergé decided to follow the Scout Law: "A scout smiles and sings through all his difficulties" and moved "In the end" as you suggest. We have lost some encyclopedic content and I appreciate your attempt to try and keep it, but it's better to just cut it. Prhartcom (talk) 19:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It would be good to have brief explanations of who certain people are when they are mentioned, such as Harry Thompson, Raymond de Becker, and Michael Farr. "A collaborator of Hergé's, Jacques Van Melkebeke..." is a good example of how to do this.
- Fixed. I think I was subconsciously concerned about this, thank-you for forcing me to deal with it. I added "entertainment producer and author" before Harry Thompson, "his former editor" before Raymond de Becker (Hergé is then immediately mentioned), "reporter and British Tintin expert" before Michael Farr. Note that I am avoiding the mostly undocumented term "Tintinologist". I already had "interviewer" describing Numa Sadoul, "collaborator" describing Jacques Martin and Jacques Van Melkebeke as you said, "Belgian Tintin expert" for Philippe Goddin, "biographer" Benoit Peeters, "biographer" Pierre Assouline, "literary critic" Jean-Marie Apostolidès, "literary analyst" Tom McCarthy, and "members of the Studios" is said before mentioning Hergé's most important collaborator Bob de Moor. Jean-Marc Lofficier and Randy Lofficier are mentioned without introduction, but they appear near the top of the Critical Analysis section so perhaps it is obvious they are critics. I believe that's all of them; the three you pointed out were the only ones that needed this. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Calling Lobsang Rampa a "discredited author" sounds like a teaser. A short footnote explaining the nature of the discrediting would be helpful.
- Fixed. Note: The Tintin source inserted the word "unfortunately" before mentioning that Hergé read Lobsang Rampa, then inserted their footnote, so your suggestion is on track. This sentence has a new footnote with a new source citation. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"He thought it an ode to friendship" should read "He thought of it an ode to friendship".
- No, not really. And your way may need an "as". This way is grammatically correct and shorter, and in fact, this phrase is from Assouline. (I'm not identifying it as a quote though, as I need the quote marks in the phrase following.) Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean by "writers on the art of the comics medium"? How is this different from literary critics?
- OK. The writers on the art of comics, specifically Hergé's Adventures of Tintin, are the biographers Assouline, Peeters, Farr, and Godin (Assouline and Peeters being slightly more scholarly than Farr and Godin, who are more popular via their colourful coffee table books). Others, such as McCloud, write more generally about the comics medium. The literary critics are Apostolidès and McCarthy; their topic is not comics or Hergé but literary analysis, using Tintin as their vehicle to guide discussion. Thompson is a pop lit entertainment writer and Lofficier & Lofficier wrote a Tintin information anthology. I hope this answers your question. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- "Writers on the art of the comics medium" seems unnecessarily clunky to me. Why not just say "literary critics and Hergé's biographers"? Someone who writes generally about the comics medium is a literary critic; comics are just as much literature as Shakespeare's plays. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Comics, like film, is a hybrid medium, which can incorporate literary elements, or not (see abstract comics). You could say "comics critics" or "writers on comics". Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 20:57, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank-you, Curly Turkey; I would be interested in your thoughts on the solution I came up with. Neelix, if the current prose is clunky then by all means let's actually improve it. What I was going for was critics of all kinds have reviewed Tintin, from the stuffy to the popular. You should not cut the word "art". Of course I agree with what you said about Tintin comics; you're preaching to the choir here. How about this; I have changed it to: "Tintin in Tibet was well received by literary scholars and writers on the art of comics"? Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, the obvious issue of not cutting the word "art" is: does "art" refer to the artform or the artwork? I suppose "writers on the comics artform" is an option? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 03:17, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Or something like "Tintin in Tibet was well-received by critics not only in comics circles but literary ones" etc. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 03:24, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I like both of those. I got the idea for the term "literary scholar" from the dust jacket of Apostolidès. Neelix, which is your preference? Prhartcom (talk) 03:47, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Curly Turkey's last recommendation ("not only in comics circles...") seems like the best idea thus far, although it suggests that comics or graphic novels critics are not literary critics, and I know a lot of graphic novel professors and graduate students who would respond angrily to that suggestion. How would you feel about the similar "Tintin in Tibet was well-received by graphic novel critics as well as other literary critics."? Neelix (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I know the type. They're as obnoxious as the "comics artist" twats who object to being called "cartoonists". If they have issues with it, they should get themselves a shrink. Film critics don't have these issues, nor do real comics critics. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 05:21, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- How about "comics and literary critics"? You could parse that as "critics of both comics and literature", or "critics of comics and critics of literature", and let those with issues chose to interpret the why that best satisfies their fragile little egos. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 05:25, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry for being a pissy bitch, but I'm one who enjoys both literature and comics; when I want literature, I pick up a novel; when I pick up comics, it's because I want to experience the particular aesthetic pleasures that the comics medium delivers (ditto painting, music, film). I don't read comics as a substitute for literature any more than I listen to music as a substitute for literature. Claiming comics as a subgenre of literature is factually wrong, and ignores comics' strengths as a medium. Many great comics aren't particularly literary (or at least their strengths aren't in their literary aspects), and many "literary" comics are plain garbage. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 05:33, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that "comics and literary critics" is a pretty good option here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- That works for me. I would prefer "comics critics and other literary critics", as I don't agree with Curly Turkey that comics are not literature, but I won't press the point here; it's a minor quibble for an article that doesn't really need to get into the debate. Neelix (talk) 18:50, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. I am certainly no comics expert but find myself agreeing with Neelix that comics are indeed literature (they are in the GA and FA literature category, after all) and would enjoy hearing more about graphic novel professors, however of course comics are also a separate genre as Curly Turkey says, just as film and music are. I have changed it to "was well received by comics critics and other literary scholars" which is similar to what Neelix and Midnightblueowl suggest, without redundancy, with the point-counterpoint rhythm that I wish to keep. We probably haven't heard the last of this. Prhartcom (talk) 19:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- "comics critics and other literary scholars" again places "comics" as a subset of literature; there's certainly no consensus in the world that that is the case, and Wikipedia can't simply state it as a fact. How about "critics from the comics and literary fields"? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. "Tintin in Tibet was well received by critics from the comics and literary fields." I like it. Prhartcom (talk) 23:12, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Who produced the poll in which Tintin in Tibet was "voted the best French-language graphic novel ever done in a poll of professionals, editors, and critics"?
- OK, good question. Lofficier mentions it and then gives no further detail. Their actual quote: "Tintin in Tibet is arguably the best book in the series; it was, in fact, voted the best French-language graphic novel ever done in a poll of professionals, editors, and critics. The reasons for that are ..." Note that they go on to say, "The book reaches a degree of perfection, both in its story and in its stunning art, that has rarely been equaled, before or since." Pretty strong. If you insist, we could swap this sentence for the other. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I would strongly recommend switching these pieces of information. Wikipedia should not cite irretrievable studies. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. I'm glad I gave you something to strongly recommend that I swap it with. ;-) It's all good; I like this new way much better. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In the phrase "Given that the book was translated...", "the book" is ambiguous, as the most recently named book is The Castafiore Emerald.
- Fixed. Replaced "the book" with "Tintin in Tibet". Good catch. Hopefully it's okay that the word "Tibet" is then redundantly mentioned further down. Note: A reviewer above didn't like "Given that", so I replaced it with "As". Please comment on this and check my work. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The "foundling" and "moira" Wiktionary links have better internal-link analogues; the Child abandonment and Moirai articles would be good alternative targets respectively.
- Fixed. I appreciate that; I had looked but not hard enough, apparently. I see that, while these are not as perfect a match as the pure dictionary definitions, the words "foundling" and "moira" are there in bold in the lead sections of the respective articles, so these are perfectly appropriate wikilinks that stay within the encyclopedia. That's great. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Question: A reviewer above suggested I change "moira" to "moira [fate]". I haven't done it. What are your thoughts? Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't have a strong opinion on this matter; including it might make it more easily readable for some readers, but might suggest that moira is just a synonym for fate. I don't think it's a big deal either way, and I wouldn't object if it was added. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The quotations by Apostolidès are long in excess when taken together, and two of them are not integrated into the prose. I recommend paraphrasing or removing those two quotations.
- No. His quotations are not as long as Lofficier in the previous paragraph, so why pick on him? And those sentences are so integrated; they each support the assertion made in the prior sentence. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- A good general rule is to not have adjacent sentences that include direct quotations. Most of the prose should paraphrase the sources rather than quote them directly. I don't mean to pick on Apostolidès specifically; the Lofficier paragraph could use a similar treatment. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. I agree with that general rule; it sounds sensible. I have cut "For both Chang and Tintin, the Tibetan adventure is a series of abandonments" and it's reference and I have ensured that no quote is immediately followed by another quote at the start the next sentence. It seems to be better this way; Tintin and Chang are now mentioned immediately before the quote about "the heroes"; I'm guessing this solved the problem your instincts sensed. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I think we may be miscommunicating on this point. As far as I can tell, every sentence in the Apostolidès includes a direct quotation, and most include multiple direct quotations. It is a standard expectation for academic writing to space direct quotations with at least a full sentence bereft of direct quotations; at least half of the sentences in a given paragraph should not include direct quotations at all. Neelix (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Please allow me to get back to you on this. You are making a good point, Neelix, and I want the fix to be correct. Midnightblueowl, could you help me on this one point? I would really appreciate it. Prhartcom (talk) 19:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- This is an issue on which I find myself supportive of Prhartcom's position; I do not think that the quotation here is excessive, and I am unsure if it is prohibited or even discouraged under Wikipedia policy. Nevertheless, I will make an attempt to cut it down further; I have completely removed the quotation from the first of the three sentences, and hope that it still contains the meaning that Apostolides originally intended (which is often quite vague and wishy-washy, but I guess that's just what you get when a literary critic talks psychoanalysis!). Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend following WP:SAID more closely; words such as "opined" should be replaced with more neutral terms.
- No. I know WP:SAID, and I believe it is followed closely throughout the article. There is nothing wrong with opined; it implies that Assouline is stating his opinion, which he is, and this synonym of "said" is not one of the numerous examples listed at WP:SAID to be cautious of. I will resist any suggestion to homogenize good writing in the name of conformity. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Similarly to the Apostolidès paragraph, the paragraphs of quotations by McCarthy, Assouline, and Peeters contain too much text devoted to direct quotations. These paragraphs can use both paraphrasing and shortening.
- No. This is the Critical Analysis section; it is supposed to be quote heavy as it describes and then showcases the actual analysis. See every other Tintin article that has reached FA or GA, or any number of other examples in Wikipedia. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Critical analysis sections are supposed to be opinion-heavy, not direct-quotation-heavy. Encyclopedic writing intersperses direct quotations with original prose. I know it is only an essay, but the Wikipedia essay on quotations recommends that we should "intersperse quotations with original prose that comments on those quotations". Whether or not this problem was identified in previous FACs, this concept is standard in academic writing. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, this article now intersperses direct quotations with original prose. As we have made a few changes, per above, I am hopeful this point has been adequately addressed. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Please see my response above in the Apostolidès case. Neelix (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The phrase "the sadness the Yeti experienced at the story's end reflected Hergé's feelings about his breakup with Germaine" suggests that Hergé and Germaine had separated before the completion of Tintin in Tibet, but such is not the case. Perhaps "Hergé's feelings about his failing marriage" would be more appropriate; I don't have access to the relevant source to know what Peeters had in mind, but I assume that he understood the chronology.
- No. It pains me to say this, but it doesn't sound like you understood the chronology. Hergé left Germaine during production, and doing so gave him the strength to finish the project, as stated in the article. He divorced her sometime after that. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- My apologies; I don't know why I thought the chronology was otherwise. The word "breakup" still seems odd to me in this context, as it connotes a dating relationship. Is it the word that is used in the sources? How would you feel about rewording to "his separation from Germaine"? Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. Hmm. I see what you mean about that word. Midnightblueowl, an extremely valuable, capable, and prolific editor, added it, and I see that it does not appear in the source—"separation" does. Good call. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for making this change. Now that the word "separation" is used, the next word should be "from" rather than "with" in order to be grammatically correct. Neelix (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Thompson quotation in Note C is not really an aside, and would do better as normal paragraphical text in the article.
- No. The reason I didn't do that was because the message it brings is contrary to the main narrative the sources present and I reflect in the main text. The narrative at this point tells the story of Hergé's sensible decision to conquer his fear and his guilt and rescue Tintin in Tibet. The fact that he broke a few eggs in the process, i.e. essentially being hypocritical to the Scout Law and hurtful to Germaine, is the aside. It does not assert what the main text asserts ("Man Conquers Circumstances") but instead asserts, or rather admits, something contrary ("Man Hurts Woman"), and I instinctively knew not to muddle the narrative by directly including it. For completeness and humanitarian purposes, however, it is included. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- That is exactly the problem, and a significant one. Encyclopedia articles do not present facts selectively in order to portray events in a chosen light. "Man Conquers Circumstances" and "Man Hurts Woman", as you call them, should be presented equally in the text, and not doing so results in a biased article. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not rewriting the article. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not asking you to rewrite the article; I am asking you to move a sentence from the footnote to the main text of the article. The article is biased on this point, and your response suggests that this bias is intentional. Neelix (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- This is mostly just a difference on personal opinion, with both of you making fair points, neither of which are explicitly right or wrong. Personally, I incline towards Neelix's position, but that is because I don't much like Notes in Wiipedia articles anyway, and would choose to use them sparingly. Are there any Wikipedia policies explicitly dealing with the issue of how and when to use Notes ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:34, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. No, it's not a problem with Notes (which are perfectly fine). I realised that Neelix is right about being biased. Even better, I realised he is right about how easy this is to fix. I don't want to be part of a biased article and in my defense I must have been looking for a consistency, which caused me to be led in mostly one direction. I have moved that note into the main text; this passage now has Farr's point of view (pointing one way) followed by Thompson's point of view (pointing the other way) followed by Goddin's point of view (pointing the first way again), and I have removed the phrase about the Scout Law. Is this better? I am amazed and excited to realise that we were able to avoid some bias and achieve some neutrality so easily. Prhartcom (talk) 19:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Per Wikipedia's guidelines on linking, links should not appear in quotations (such as the one about Sarrasine).
- OK, sometimes I wonder about you Neelix, as you just told me above to keep links that appear in a quote ("foundling" and "moira", same quote, too). Don't worry, I am keeping them. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would recommend adding more images to the article, as it is currently fairly text-heavy. There are images of Apostolidès and Assouline available that could be added to the "Critical analysis" section and of Tovey to add to the "Adaptations" section, for example.
- Fixed. I have wanted to add more images for a long time and knew about the images of the two authors you mentioned, but wasn't sure the Assouline image was good enough. I decided to add it, though, as your suggestion. The Apostolidès image is so boring I could barely bring myself to add it to the Apostolidès article. Same boringness with the Tovey image. I wish I could add this brilliant non-free Tovey image: [3] Another Tintin biographer Benoit Peeters has a nice free image, but it has already appeared in the Critical Analysis section of practically every Tintin article to reach GA or FA. I don't need to tell you that it is extremely difficult to get Tintin images into a Tintin article as the topic is a visual medium yet the images of the subject are copyrighted. Let me know if you like the Assouline image that has now been added. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, the Assouline image looks good. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is my impression that linking to Google Books is generally discouraged, partially because the ISBN links provide more diverse options, including Google Books. I think the citations would be more functional without the Google Books links.
- OK, I am interested, but skeptical; I think I see what you are saying but I was simply looking at it as more access to information. (Perhaps some people think they don't like Google.) Can you provide an essay, guideline, or policy on this? Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I tend to think that this is in fact poorer access to information, because the ISBN links do a much better job allowing people to engage with the book in the way they see fit rather than streamlining them to a predefined resource (which I wouldn't recommend as the default anyway). I haven't managed to find an essay, guideline, or policy on this matter, so I won't push my opinion on this point. I may attempt to have a guideline put in place at some point. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. I am interested if you ever want to get back to me on this. I never knew the Google Books links were bad. Did you notice that I trimmed each URL so that it would not result in a close-up of a random page with random highlighting but instead gives the book overview. I just now randomly picked three Featured Articles and all three happened to have Google Books links (one was a recent promotion). I think it's fair to say this is not a FA requirement. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Is the Tintinologist.com source reputable? I question it because it isn't used to source any content, and because it describes itself as a fan site.
- OK, you are "going there"? Okay, let's go there. You are certainly being thorough; that's great. I have never touched that link, in this or in any Tintin article; I have left it alone out of respect more than anything else. This is more a question I would like to ask you, as this link was added May 2007 in the days you were one of the principle editors who watched the Tintin articles. Why did you allow it then? Since those days, this link has been in every Tintin book article; I believe. I think I have seen other external links to other external Tintin resources come and go, but for some reason this one, the oldest non-Hergé Foundation site, has remained in the Tintin articles. I'm not very familiar with the website, but I believe it is a useful resource for our readers and has legitimate Tintin articles too, as you know, such as Tintin Crosses The Atlantic: The Golden Press Affair and many others (I have that particular one in a bibliography of another Tintin article that needed a reliable source). So, I don't know what your call is, but mine is: Leave it. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- That's fine by me; I was more hoping you had insight into the site's reviewing policies than I do. We link to IMDb in this way all the time, but we don't use it as a source. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You may consider adding alt text to the images, although I believe this isn't a requirement for featured articles anymore. It is helpful for users with visual impairment.
- OK, why are you raising this when I long ago added the alt text? You could have clicked the Alt Text tool above and seen for yourself. Maybe you are confusing this article for some other article you reviewed. Yes, it is no longer a requirement, as I recently found out while I reviewed another FAC [4] and insisted to them that it be added and was rebuffed. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- My apologies; I don't know why the alt text isn't coming up when I mouse over the images. It may be the computer I am currently using. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Try the Alt Text tool; it's right there. Try Preferences Gadgets "Navigation popups, article previews and editing functions popup when hovering over links". Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
After the first instance of referring to a person, men are referred to in this article consistently by their surnames, but the women are sometimes referred to solely by their given names. In particular, it would be more consistent to refer to Fanny Vlaminck by her surname in instances after the first rather than simply as "Fanny".
- Fixed. That's an astute observation. What does it say about me, or anyone that reviewed, that no one noticed this before now? Here is what I have done: There is a passage after Fanny Vlaminck is first mentioned that compared Fanny to Germaine. I have left the first names there. Elsewhere, "Fanny" was mentioned two more times, and for both of those I changed it to "Fanny Vlaminck" (rather than just the surname) and I believe it works very well; please check and see. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Question: After all that, we mention Fanny one more time, as "Fanny Rodwell". By now, she has married Nick Rodwell and her name has changed. Do you think we need to do anything here? Do we need "(née Vlaminck)"? Will readers recognise this is the same Fanny? Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm glad you raise this point! I meant to previously and forgot. How would you feel about adding a footnote indicating that she married Nick Rodwell and changed her name? Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. Note and citations to two sources (one new) has been added. I heard that eyebrows raised when she married him. Prhartcom (talk) 02:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I am surprised that this article gives such a uniformly positive depiction of Hergé's separating from his wife; normally, we have the opposite problem (that an article will uniformly negatively depict a person's separation from their spouse for someone else). Did all of Hergé's critics, biographers, and contemporaries praise Hergé for this decision? If not, I recommend adding some other reactions for balance.
- Yes, pretty much quite literally, all of Hergé's critics, biographers, and contemporaries praised Hergé for this decision while covering this human drama. This is what I meant while trying to explain about the "main narrative" and the "scout law" above. I believe I have covered the topic of Tintin in Tibet quite adequately and won't be adding whole paragraphs or sections or go into any more in-depth explanations. I hope this sounds reasonable to you and I hope my firmness doesn't stand in the way of your Support. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this can be discussed above. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Did we hopefully solve it above? I'll know if you cross this one out. I like this observation you made about normally we have the opposite problem in articles and find it facinating. Prhartcom (talk) 19:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I greatly appreciate your fixes above; they neutralize the article's treatment of the subject considerably. I have visited some of the source texts and I have two recommendations of additions that might flesh out the section further. 1) Peeters indicates on page 280 of Hergé, Son of Tintin that Germaine made a scene in public on several occasions in which she berated Hergé and Fanny Vlaminck and complained loudly of the way they were treating her, and even started stalking them. The article at present doesn't indicate any averse reaction on Germaine's part, and including this information might clarify why Hergé's inner turmoil became so severe. 2) Assouline indicates on page 185 of Hergé: The Man Who Created Tintin that Vlaminck was a catalyst for transitioning Hergé away from his Judeo-Christian upbringing and towards the morality and philosophy of Taoism. At present, the article indicates that Hergé resisted leaving his wife because of both "his Catholic upbringing and Boy Scout ethic", and the way he dealt with the Boy Scout ethic is explained later on, but there is no explanation of how he dealt with the Catholic upbringing; adding the information about Vlaminck and Taoism should tie up this loose end. With those two inclusions, I think this section will be well-balanced. Neelix (talk) 16:04, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- No. I know about both of those events and many other remarkable things in la monde de Tintin; my copies of the book sources in the bibliography happen to contain several paper bookmarks, and two of them are to the pages you mention above; I had decided those facts do not need to clutter this article about Tintin in Tibet. By the way, you say we resolve Hergé's Boy Scout ethic later on, apparently forgetting what is still fresh in my mind: you asked me to remove all that, so no, we don't. Prhartcom (talk) 17:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, this is interesting: "Germaine made a scene in public on several occasions"—was this contemporary to Tintin in Tibet? If it's something that happened a decade later, I'd keep it out, but if it happened while Hergé was working on the book, I think it should be mentioned in passing. I don't know about the Taoism stuff—how deep was the interest? Did it have an on Hergé's composition of Tintin in Tibet? If not, then I'd call it trivia at the scope of this article. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:15, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm inclined toward Curly's view here that this is trivia and not really of the utmost importance to the article in question. But I am open to being convinced otherwise. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:54, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Germaine making a scene in public on several occasions and stalking Hergé and Fanny happened at the same time as the writing of Tintin in Tibet; it occurred while Hergé was seeing Fanny, but before he had left Germaine. This was not a decade-later event; Peeters indicates that it is one of the main things that increased the severity of Hergé's psychological issues, and what brought him to the point of leaving Germaine. At present, the article indicates several reasons that Hergé left his wife, but this is a significant one that is curiously missing. As for the Taoism, I am not concerned that Taoism be mentioned specifically, but I think it important for Hergé's shift from Judeo-Christian philosophy (represented by Germaine) to Oriental philosophy (represented by Fanny) be mentioned. Assouline states that "Fanny was a catalyst for him to change what Germaine and Father Wallez had inculcated in him" because Fanny represented "Taoism and revelations foreign to the Judeo-Christian tradition... All of a sudden he discovered different instincts: openness, tolerance, and a sense of freedom." The shift is relevant to Tintin in Tibet because the article argues strongly and at length that Hergé's completion of the volume symbolized his new-found sense of freedom, which he found by leaving Germaine for Fanny. It seems strange to me to raise the issue of Hergé's Catholic upbringing and not then state that it was his transition away from that tradition that brought him the sense of freedom he found with Fanny to finish Tintin in Tibet. Even with the removal of the Scout Law sentence, the Boy Scout ethic issue is later resolved the statement that "Hergé chose to keep his Scout's word of honour to Tintin, but not to Germaine". Not doing the same with the Catholic upbringing seems incongruous. Neelix (talk) 02:36, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- There is more to it that this, Neelix; you've only just found the sources and you think you've found the key to their separation, but if you keep reading other chapters there is more that occurred earlier that leads to their separation than just some undignified stalking or some Taoism that happens at the last minute. Please consider that it could be superficial of you to be led into thinking this is what must be included in this article, and that you could instead respect the instincts of your fellow editors who hear alarm bells at your suggestion. Germaine had been introduced to Hergé by their employer, right-wing fascist Abbé Norbert Wallez, Hergé's former editor (Germaine was his secretary), who blessed their union of course, since he arranged every part of it, despite the fact that the couple were never in love. Wallez's controlling influence over Hergé ended a decade earlier, post war, when he was disgraced and arrested, yet Hergé had not yet taken care of the last piece of unfinished business: leaving the woman who doesn't love him and who is the last remnant of his old life. If you wish, I can return to the sources and somehow include some of this emotion in the article. Prhartcom (talk) 14:12, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I am certainly not suggesting that this article needs to cover the full history of Hergé's relationship with Germaine. I do think it important, however, that a section of the Tintin in Tibet article called "Hergé's psychological issues" should at least mention each of the reasons that scholars have indicated Hergé to have had psychological issues during the writing of Tintin in Tibet, and Peeters suggests that this is one of the main reasons. Peeters explicitly states that Germaine's public outbursts and stalking "literally made him sick. During the autumn of 1959 he suffered from a duodenal ulcer." The cause that Peeters identifies for Hergé's distress to the point of physical illness is explained in the same paragraph: "One day Germaine caused a scene right in the middle of avenue Louise, noisily berating Hergé and Fanny... She complained about her troubles to anyone who would listen whenever she had the opportunity. She also began stalking Georges and Fanny, seeking out the places where they went; since the young woman still lived with her parents, the couple was forced to go to small hotels for their encounters. None of this suited Hergé's temperament at all; it literally made him sick..." For a section that discusses Hergé's psychological issues during the writing of Tintin in Tibet, this seems like a glaring omission. Neelix (talk) 17:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
J Milburn, TonyTheTiger, Brigade Piron, Crisco 1492, please help. Thank-you. Prhartcom (talk) 19:08, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- On thinking it through, I am certainly not averse to the inclusion of the information which Neelix suggests we add. At the same time, I am not convinced that such material is necessary for inclusion. So I'm afraid that I am somewhat sitting on the fence on this one, between the positions advocated by Prhartcom and Neelix (as I understand them). Hopefully the views of others will allow us to come to a definitive conclusion on which course of action to take. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:42, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I've with Midnightblueowl. If I've understood the exchange correctly, which considering its length may not be the case, it appears to me a bit in-depth for an article on this scope. While certainly not irrelevant, we do have to make an editorial call somewhere. Perhaps this would be more appropriate for inclusion on the main Hergé biographical article? Too much context, in too much detail, in my opinion risks swamping the content on the actual book itself. —Brigade Piron (talk) 09:10, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Considering that, to my surprise, no one else appears to think this information as relevant to the subject of the article as I do, I will relent. I hope the information will be added to the article, but whether or not it does will not prevent me from supporting the article receiving featured status. Neelix (talk) 01:38, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, I agree with you—if these things were contemporary to the creation of the book, I'd say the article would benefit from working them in (if only briefly in passing). Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 02:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks like the five of us who have weighed in on this subject are split fairly evenly in our positions. I can understand the arguments that we should prevent the section from getting too long, but I think this content can be added in a way that will be brief. Would anyone object if I added to the article a sentence or two relating to the above? Neelix (talk) 17:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I object. Has no one noticed that there is little-to-no place this can be added into the Hergé's physiological issues section? It is only two paragraphs. The flow of sentences in both paragraphs, especially the second paragraph, the way they connect to each other, prevent such an abrupt inclusion. This trivia certainly doesn't merit it's own paragraph. I'm guessing no one has actually looked critically at the section to see where this could possibly be added, as I did when this idea was first suggested. The information Neelix wishes to add reminds me of yellow journalism and just feels wrong. We already communicate that Hergé felt ill/tormented about leaving his wife; this info does not add illumination to his motivation. Discussion of feelings, actions, or attitudes of either of the two women do not belong in a section about Hergé. I am amazed that Neelix essentially finished his review of the article (we had answered all of his objections), then decided to go out of his way to locate sources from the article—not to review how they were used, but to try to continue writing the article. When do reviewers do that? If he has the sources, why doesn't he review the page numbers, source references, etc. of the research and ensure this is all correct? I am disappointed in those who don't agree or understand what I am saying, I am still hoping Neelix will drop this idea, and I am still waiting to see if perhaps one other editor may answer my modest canvassing call above and hopefully side with me on this. Prhartcom (talk) 22:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Prhartcom: it's disappointing that you'd react so harshly to Neelix's suggestion—you seem to be veering into bad faith territory. If you disagree, then disagree, but I don't think you need to call Neelix's motivation into question. Why not see Neelix's proposed change first and then comment on it? He's already supported, remember—after five supports on no opposes, it's not like the article is going to be archived. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:07, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I broadly agree with Curly's point here. Neelix has gone to great trouble to aid us in improving this article, and as a result it's not fair to criticise them in this manner. I am glad that we work together well on a lot of Adventures of Tintin articles Prhartcom, so for that reason I held out from commenting on this before, but I do think that this was a bad move. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, since the primary editor doesn't appear too keen on it, maybe it'd be best to post your suggested change here first. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:42, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Prhartcom, you asked where this information would fit in the article. Between the second and third sentences of the "Hergé's psychological issues" section seems very appropriate to me. Information isn't yellow journalism or wrong simply because it can be interpreted as negative. You stated that this information doesn't add illumination to his motivation, but I disagree. The article suggests that the motivation was no longer loving his wife, but the sources suggest otherwise; the Peeters source states that Hergé planned to remain with Germaine while pursuing a relationship with Fanny, and that it was only Germaine's considerable protestations (in the form described above) against his relationship with Fanny that motivated him to leave Germaine. Neelix (talk) 02:43, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Neelix, what sentence, pray tell, do you propose be between the second and third sentence, please. The reason I am unhappy is, you must admit, you unfairly added this one last requirement at the last minute, and also, you must admit, it changes the tone of the section a bit; it adds "too much information" as people tend to say. The readers get the big picture already—without this way-too-lurid detail. Prhartcom (talk) 01:16, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I do not believe my late comment on this point to be unfair; all of the other reviewers in this FAC supported solely on prose, as I did, and it was only when I began a source review that I discovered this problem with the article. I do not see what is lurid about this information. Besides, Wikipedia is not censored, and it is unfair to our readers to only present positive information on a subject. Here is the content I recommend adding to the article: "Hergé began going to small hotels with Fanny weekly on Friday nights, and telling Germaine that it was 'perfectly normal to have a secondary wife; people have always done it.' Germaine's response to the relationship between Hergé and Fanny was to complain about them loudly in public places and to try to stalk them on the nights of their encounters, and these actions on Germaine's part significantly augmented the intensity of Hergé's psychological issues." All of this information can be sourced to Peeters page 280. Neelix (talk) 17:51, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- And I am imagining you had opened Peeters (2012), found yourself on that page, started reading, and said "Oh my goodness, this isn't in the article." Just now I picked up a different source, started reading, and found the part where Germaine frequently has her male friend Bertje Jagueneau come over for private visits. Like I said, there is much here and we can't get it all and we shouldn't; this isn't the article about Hergé's separation, it's about a Tintin book. Your recommended prose could be better; it is too long and gives too much weight to this topic. As well, your attempt may begin well enough, but it does not skillfully fit into the sentences that immediately follow. I'm not suggesting censorship; I've fought against blatant censorship on other Talk pages, I'm talking about restraint, balance, and common sense but also a striving for brilliant writing. How about: "He and Fanny Vlaminck, a colourist at Studios Hergé twenty-eight years his junior, had developed a deep mutual attraction.[1] They began courting on Friday nights; Hergé's new companion lifted his morale and shared many of his interests, unlike Germaine, who did not.[Thompson (1991) p.168, Farr (2001) p.161, Peeters (2012) p.280] Germaine soon began interfering with the courtship, causing Hergé to admit his desire had been to maintain a relationship with both women.[Peeters (2012) p.280] When he failed to please either, he began to contemplate divorcing Germaine to marry Fanny.[Farr (2001) p.161, Assouline (2009) p.186, Goddin (2011) p.109] His Catholic upbringing and Boy Scout ethic, however, caused him to feel tremendous guilt.[Thompson (1991) p.168,170, Farr (2001) p.161]" I would now like to phone a friend: Midnightblueowl, what do you think? Neelix (or David), quick question: when this issue is resolved to your satisfaction, will you also please Support the source review? Prhartcom (talk) 23:57, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The addition/rewording you propose sounds fair enough to me. Given my spot-checks, I won't have any remaining concerns once the edit is implemented. Neelix (talk) 02:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- "Neelix (or David), quick question: when this issue is resolved to your satisfaction, will you also please Support the source review?" Prhartcom (talk) 12:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd tweak it to "They began courting
on Friday nights; Hergé's new companion lifted his morale and shared many of his interests, unlike Germaine, who did not." I might even move "unlike Germaine" to before "Hergé's new companion". Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 05:03, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Both of those changes make sense to me, Curly Turkey. Yes, Prhartcom, I would be glad to support fully once this issue is resolved; I apologize if I was previously unclear on this point. Neelix (talk) 15:29, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank-you Neelix, not at all, I was just clarifying that I need your support on the source review. I'm just realising that for any Tintin article, some inaccessibility of the sources could make it difficult. Prhartcom (talk) 16:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Neelix, would you please actually use the word Support in bold in the source review? Thank-you. Prhartcom (talk) 19:27, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think I've seen anyone give a bolded support for sources before. They just announce that one has been done, and note what issues there are. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 20:28, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I see what you mean; as long as it's clear to Ian Rose who asked earlier, or anyone else, that the source review has been done for this article. Thank-you. Prhartcom (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Midnightblueowl and Curly Turkey: The second-to-the-last thing I would ever do would be to make either of you unhappy. The last thing I would ever do would be to allow harm to come to the article. My friends, it was truly about to happen; what Neelix described and then explicitly stated would have been a gross imbalance of information. I couldn't allow that to happen and I'm glad that I ultimately prevented it. Everything I stated I believe to be correct. I wish both of you had spotted this as well and given your support. I'm happy, as I've always said, for Neelix's thoroughness and I'm also happy that we gained the two new facts that he wanted by mentioning them in a single sentence, keeping the proper balance and focus in that section of the article. I just wish that I had thought of suggesting that final sentence on the very first day of this discussion. Cheers. Prhartcom (talk) 16:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article was a pleasure to read. In general, is well-written and well-researched. Please let me know if you have any questions regarding my comments above. Neelix (talk) 01:43, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank-you, Neelix, for your review! Your good ideas are extremely valuable and have already made the article better. I will respond to any comments or questions you have for me. Thank-you, as well, for your complements! As you can tell, I am so pleased and honoured that you were able to take the time in what must be a busy schedule to make this review a part of your administrative (and Tintin) duties! We'll talk again soon. Cheers. Prhartcom (talk) 04:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for all the fixes, changes, and responses thus far! I have struck the points that you have either addressed or demonstrated as not needing addressing. I look forward to discussing the remaining matters with you further. Neelix (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments, Neelix, and thank you Prhartcom for responding to them in such a thorough manner! Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I greatly appreciate both of your responses and alterations. I have struck more of the concerns you have addressed, and there are only a few remaining. Of them, I am most concerned about the ones regarding Hergé's separation from his wife. The placement and wording with respect to the Scout Law, as well as the subjugation of the Thompson quotation to a footnote, both serve to bias the article on this point, and the responses and lack of responses to these concerns have suggested that this bias is intentional. I think highly of the work you have done in developing this article and I think it almost feature-worthy, but I will certainly oppose giving the article featured status if the prose remains biased in this way. Neelix (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Tintin in Tibet article looks pretty good in WikiWand. Thanks to Brigade Piron who first added the free picture to this article a few months ago; WikiWand appears to place only free pictures in an article's top header. Prhartcom (talk) 23:43, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I am impressed by your sustained willingness to think about this article critically and make any necessary improvements. I have struck all but two of my concerns; all that remains is the concern regarding WP:QUOTEFARM and my recommendation of two missing relevant pieces of information. Neelix (talk) 16:04, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank-you for that; I am grateful while not surprised at your thoroughness; when I invited you here, I knew you were an expert, a scholar, and a fan of Tintin; three attributes that would come in handy to improve this article even more. You have made a few mistakes, I believe, in your review of this material, where no others have, but I believe those are excusable and expected when such thoroughness is executed like no other, so I remain happy, and besides I have made mistakes too. As long as the article is improved in the process. Prhartcom (talk) 17:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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