Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/UEFA Euro 1976 Final/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 18 September 2021 [1].

UEFA Euro 1976 Final[edit]

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 10:59, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Classic old-school UEFA European Championship final, I mean some people haven't even heard of Czechoslovakia or West Germany. But there they were, playing in "Yugoslavia" of all places. And to make matters worse, out of the match was born the famous Panenka penalty which still endures to this day. I loved reading and writing about this, I hope you enjoy reviewing it and thanks in advance as ever for constructive criticism which I will endeavour to address as soon as practicable, illness etc allowing. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 10:59, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Cas Liber[edit]

Righty-ho then.....

  • The match was played at Stadion Crvena Zvezda, Belgrade, on 20 June 1976. The match was contested by Czechoslovakia and West Germany. - two consecutive sentences with same start...how's about "Contested by Czechoslovakia and West Germany, the match was played at Stadion Crvena Zvezda, Belgrade, on 20 June 1976."
    Done. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 07:26, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Czechoslovakia subsection you have four paras all starting with "Czechoslovakia..." - might wanna diversify 'em up....
    Done. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 07:26, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There, West Germany faced Spain in the two-legged tie with the first match taking place at the Metropolitano Stadium in Madrid on 24 April 1976 - what's the "There" at the beginning referring to...
    The quarter-final, from the previous sentence. If you can re-phrase it less ambiguously without repetition (which is what I'm trying to avoid) then please do! The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 07:26, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nothing about viewership on TV - or profile of game WRT previous finals...?
    I found it was broadcast live in the UK, have no sources on viewership however. Will check paper sources one more time on "profile" point. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 07:26, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All minor things - looking on target for promotion prose- and comprehensiveness-wise Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:10, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Casliber thanks for your review and comments, I've responded to all above. I'll need to have another read of my paper books for your final point, but otherwise I'm done. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 07:26, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Casliber there's nothing I can find on viewership or comparisons with other finals. It wasn't such a big deal back in those days and with teams like West Germany and Czechoslovakia involved, in Yugoslavia, coverage was quite limited. I've checked all my available sources (paper, The Guardian, Gale, etc) and nothing is really suitable. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 11:54, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Alright then - nothing actionable so support on comprehensiveness and prose Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:03, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Girth Summit[edit]

Very little for me to pick up on here - just a few points.

  • "Panenka's name is now synonymous with that particular style of penalty kick." This assertion in the lead isn't made in the body of the article - you mention other players replicating it, but not that his name is has come to mean a style of kick (I assume that people refer to it as taking a Panenka penalty?) - could this be made explicit?
  • "The UEFA Euro 1976 Final was the third competitive fixture between West Germany and Czechoslovakia, having played one another in the 1934 and the 1958 FIFA World Cups." The second clause needs a subject - something like "the teams having played one another..."
  • " as Pollák was suspended for the final" Consider reminding the reader he'd been sent off in the semi - that was quite a few paragraphs ago.
  • "while the West Germany player was not booked." This reads slightly awkwardly to me - would 'bit' work better than 'while', or maybe just break the clause out into a separate sentence?
  • "Müller then passed to Viktor down the right wing but Maier came out to charge down the opportunity to score." I'm not clear on what 'charge down the opportunity to score' means - Maier's the goalie, so I assume this means he left the goal line to obstruct the German players, but it could be a bit clearer.
  • "All but three of UEFA's team of the tournament had featured in the final," What is a 'team of the tournament'? I assume from the context that it's a bit like a man of the match, where they choose the best 11 players and say that would be the ideal team, but I've never heard of it and I'm just guessing. If there isn't an article to link to, could this be explained in a few words?

That's all I could find to comment on. Girth Summit (blether) 10:42, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Girth Summit All addressed bar the last point. This came up in another review. I can find nothing reliable to explain it, not for that year's tournament. You have it spot on, UEFA picked the "best" eleven from all the teams in the finals, but sadly all I have in every source I have found for 1976 is simply a declaration of that team, nothing more. Thanks for your review, much appreciated. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 11:11, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man All looking good. Happy to support as is; consider perhaps linking 'team of the tournament' to UEFA_Euro_1976#Awards, which lists the players that were selected? Girth Summit (blether) 11:30, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Splendid idea. Will do, and thanks again. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 12:08, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski[edit]

I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.

Lede
Prose
  • round-robin tournament basis - can probably cut tournament, as the whole event is the tournament. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:47, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Qualifying rounds were played on a home-and-away round-robin tournament basis before the semi-finals and final taking place in Yugoslavia, between 16 and 20 June 1976. A third-place play-off match took place the day before the final.[2] - qualifying? This is the main event we are describing, correct? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:47, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see the issue, forgive me. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I think this was my confusion, as I assumed the tournament ran the same way it does now. It seems as though the tournament was only for four teams, and the rest was qualification? Seems a bit bizarre to me, but whatever. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:53, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Whatever indeed, back in the day the tournament was relatively minor and the "finals" were held in short order, with not much else to report. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:00, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • On that, the quarter-finals were not in a round-robin. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:47, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed, QF's now mentioned. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I feel like the background could do with a bit more info on the event itself. Such as where and when it was played, how many teams participated, (and the qualification for that).
    I think there are so many articles about each of these Euro tournaments, e.g. for 1976 we have UEFA Euro 1976 qualifying, articles for every single qualifying group, UEFA Euro 1976 final tournament, the main UEFA Euro 1976 article, so I don't feel the need to go into all that detail here. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I do think you need at least an outline of the event itself. I'm not asking for much, just the dates of the tournament, and how many teams participated. This would show the extent of the final. Is this a long tournament, or played with just a couple teams.Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:53, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    As I'm sure you know, the entire tournament went on for around two years. The other linked articles show the extent of the competition. This is about the final. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:00, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second para of background could probably be more suited to the "pre-match" section. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:47, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Not really, the pre-match is really for things that happened within the scope of the final itself. The second para of background contains information that dates back up to two years prior to this match. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • image could do with a (taken in 2009) or similar. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd love to, if the uploader had added that information. As it stands I have no way of knowing when the photo was taken. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Currently the alt text does say that though Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:48, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess I got that from here, so I've added it to the caption as you suggest. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 15:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comments
  • Completely unrelated, but the fact we have a Czechoslovakia national team article, but not West Germany is a bit odd to me. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:41, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:36, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lee Vilenski I've made changes per my comments and have one outstanding query. Cheers for the review. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've added minor points above, but otherwise seems fine. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:53, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've added some dates, context. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:07, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd still like a tad more covering the event, but I don't see enough to not warrant a support. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:37, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

  • All footnotes and references are formatted consistently in a manner that adheres to the MOS.
  • All sources appear to be to high-quality, reliable sources.
  • I am concerned about the narrow scope of the sources. In essence, the majority of this article is sourced to statistical summaries on 11v11 or RSSSF and to Jonathan O'Brien's book. Nothing is wrong with either of these sources, but for a Featured quality article, I would expect a much broader range. Notably, there are no newspaper reports and therefore little to no third-party analysis of the game. Some things that I would hope and expect to see in this sort of article: who was the favourite coming into the final, did pundits feel the result was the right one, how well did the teams play, did they play with a particular style? A quick search brought up a match report in the Guardian which talks about some of these things. It is obviously tough to get German and Czech language reports, but it would be interesting to know how the result played in each country too if possible. This is a good Good article, but I am not convinced that the sourcing is anywhere near adequate for Featured status. Harrias (he/him) • talk 12:00, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias If you can direct me to other sources specifically that would be fine. I have included all the paper sources that are available in English that I can purchase. If you can find newspaper reports of the game, you'd be doing a better job than me as I have looked on Gale, BNA, Guardian/Observer etc. If something can be identified as actually missing I will do my best to address that, but this feels like an non-actionable comment right now. It's not for the lack of trying. Which Guardian report please? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 12:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is the Guardian match report. This is a Guardian preview. Other English and foreign-language sources are certainly going to exist. Unfortunately, FA criterion 1c requires an FA to be "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature", not merely a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature available to the nominator. Harrias (he/him) • talk 12:16, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I find that a little patronising. If you can find any sources that contain information that is not present in the article, I'd be delighted to add them in. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:45, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias okay, I've added one or two trivial factoids from the Grauniad link, but I guess you're declaring this as a source review fail. Please confirm so I can move on. I don't believe there's anything more I can do, and you've not suggested any relevant literature that I've failed to investigate. "Other English and foreign-language sources are certainly going to exist" is true of literally every single FAC ever nominated. I've added a couple of German-language reactions, but overall, it's incredibly disappointing and a total shift compared to the expectations of every other FAC I've seen. But thanks anyway. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 22:01, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, while I respect the opinion of Aza24 below, I do not feel that my concerns have been met, and continue to oppose this for failing 1c, and on a read through the match summary, 1b, also as detailed above. Harrias (he/him) • talk 06:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can I request a second opinion, from someone like Aza24 on the source review please? Time is of the essence right now and if this needs to be failed, I need to move on. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...)

Well it comes back to the idea of "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature" for the sake of "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature", or "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature" for making sure the article includes all relevant information from high quality sources. When I review sources I tend to take the latter view, more broadly, especially for individual sport matches. And in this case, particularly with the changes made above, the latter view seems met. If no further missing information can be identified, I don't see a huge reason to include other sources only for the sake of doing so. Aza24 (talk) 23:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 23:23, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hang on, surely this can be clarified with a search of google books for German or Czech phrasing of Euro 1976. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:28, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure how that would satisfy the "there must be something out there" opposition, because there still remains the possibility that a book on a shelf in a library in Freiburg may contain something. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 12:37, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But if it is some esoteric book not on google books then it isn't compromising the comprehensiveness of the sources. I must admit, nothing is jumping out at me as a German source on gnews or gbooks....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, and my Czech isn't good enough. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 12:43, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TRM pls note that a withdrawal is still an archive, it's just a voluntary archive, so it means the usual two-week wait to open a new nom. Maybe this still can be resolved -- at least let's not do anything precipitate... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:05, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man, I'd say that (West) German sources usually focus on Hoeneß missing the penalty when talking about this game. [2] [3] [4]. —Kusma (talk) 15:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ian Rose two week delay to open a new nomination on a different subject? What possible benefit to anyone does that have? I can't see how this intractable issue can be resolved, so I'm focussing on a different subject. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:26, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Lots of focus on Hoeneß: [5] [6]. Slide 8 of that slideshow claims it was the German side that suggested penalties instead of a rematch in case of a tie. —Kusma (talk) 16:28, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kusma thanks, I'll add some of this in, but alas with no Czech literature included, this is still failing. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:31, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kusma in fact, I can't. My German is just not good enough and since the GBooks stuff isn't "translatable" by Google, I'm stuck with only the two Kicker sources. 16:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
I can do a rough translation/overview for you (and confirm and improve any details you're interested in) of the first two, which are not overly long. The third one is basically Hoeneß reminiscing, which isn't a secondary source so perhaps not so useful. If you think that's useful, I'll leave notes on the article talk page, probably in a few hours. I can't read Czech, but if you find someone who can (I think Buidhe reads Czech but I'm sure there are native speakers around), this article and the newspapers in the photo gallery are at least something. —Kusma (talk) 18:21, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kusma many thanks. There's nothing much in those Kicker links which isn't already in the article so if you can tell me what's said in those GBooks links, that would be great. And Google Translate should help me that Czech link, so thanks for that too. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 18:25, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok well I've added Kicker and iDnes.cz. There's nothing more I can do beyond what Kusma comes up with now, so either this "there must be sources" has been resolved or else it's literally impossible to action. If anyone is aware of significant gaps in the sourcing, please point me to it. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 20:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@The Rambling Man: first one in my sandbox User:Kusma/sandbox/76 (not on the talk page because I should delete it again asap). Super quick first pass terrible translation, let me know what you want polished/explained. Second one coming up in a moment. —Kusma (talk) 21:31, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kusma thank you very much. I'll try to get to it tomorrow sometime, although work may get in the way...! The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:32, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am pleased to see this is still open as I think this can be (and is in process of being) sorted out. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:46, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, thanks to Kusma for those translations. There wasn't much in the way of improving the match summary but some of the pre-penalty shoot-out stuff has been augmented, and a couple of quotes there too have been added. Any more for any more? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 08:36, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kusma marvellous, simply wonderful. Thank you. Back to Harrias. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 09:09, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment I feel the lead sentence should be rewritten (maybe along the lines of UEFA Euro 2004 Final, also at FAC) so that "UEFA" isn't repeated four times.—indopug (talk) 17:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

indopug done, thanks. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:42, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias a revisit would be appreciated. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 07:06, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Been away with work the past few days, only have mobile access which is rubbish for reviewing. Will be home later today, so will either look at it this evening or tomorrow. Harrias (he/him) • talk 09:18, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias thanks. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 10:07, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Source review continued – pass[edit]
  • Firstly, I'm happier that this meets the requirements of 1c and 1b. In an ideal world, the match summary itself would be referenced to a wider variety of sources, but I know it can be tough finding non-US sources for this era.
Indeed. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 08:55, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref #40 is missing the work parameter.
Added. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 08:55, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is sourcing the positions and formation used in the Details section? They don't appear to be from the "Report" link provided.
Formation graphic removed, unsourced, remnant of a bygone article version. Positions now generalised and sourced to Kier. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 09:03, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have emailed you a couple more sources I found which might be useful, from The Times and the Manchester Journal Inquirer. Passing this source review is not contingent on using them, I just figured they might be useful.
Thanks, I'll take a look. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 08:55, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This looks pretty close to me now, nice work on the additions, and thanks to Kusma for their work on the German language sources. Harrias (he/him) • talk 08:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias I've addressed the immediate concerns above. I'll take a look at your email (thanks) post-haste. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 09:03, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I did find that Times source previously and didn't see anything that wasn't already covered. The MEJ source relating to the favourites is interesting, but it's already noted in the article that Czechoslovakia were the underdogs at this point in the tournament, so I think that's okay too. And Manchester Connecticut, who knew?? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 09:16, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias, are we done? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 09:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I have no outstanding concerns. Harrias (he/him) • talk 12:25, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: now we're over the threshold, can I nominate another candidate? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 08:24, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why stop now? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:24, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/UEFA_Euro_1976_Final/archive1&oldid=1045034102"