Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Userkaf/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 12 December 2019 [1].

Userkaf[edit]

Nominator(s): Iry-Hor (talk) 13:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Userkaf, founder of the Fifth Dynasty of Egypt in the 25th Century BC. Userkaf's reign heralded a period of ascendancy for the cult of Ra over that of the other Egyptian gods. Epochal, paradigmatic shifts in the conception of kingship that held sway during the previous Fourth Dynasty took place under Userkaf. These changes are perhaps best manifested in the small size of his pyramid as well as the parallel construction of the first Sun Temple. Egypt's military might and trade relations seemed to have flourished at the time.

This is the third nomination for this article, however the previous two failures were not up to the article itself: the first candidacy failed owing to me being unforeseeably absent from wikipedia just after posting it; the second because FAC rules do not allow for two nominations by the same editor at the same time (the other candidacy was that of the promoted Atlanersa). All comments received in these two candidacies were implemented. I am thus looking forward to your reviews!Iry-Hor (talk) 13:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dank (Support)[edit]

  • "Bernhard Grdseloff argues that as a descendant of pharaoh Djedefre marrying a woman from the main royal line—that of Khafre and Menkaure—Userkaf could have unified two rival factions within the royal family and ended possible dynastic struggles.": That would be a little clearer if it started off "Bernhard Grdseloff argues that Userkaf, ...".
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 08:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Userkaf received from a funerary cult after his death": ?
Fixed it is a mix-up between two formulations "received a funerary cult" and "benefitted from". I chose "received a funerary" because as was pointed out by a reviewer he could hardly have benefitted from it being dead.Iry-Hor (talk) 08:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "urae": ?
Done I have wikilinked this to the relevant article.Iry-Hor (talk) 08:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Dank for your review and support !

Support Comments by Mr rnddude[edit]

Eventually, when I am able to get around to it. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In contemporary culture
Egyptian Nobel Prize for Literature-winner Naguib Mahfouz - Nobel prize recipients are laureates, leave winner to sports fans.
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Middle Kingdom
... by a block showing the king undertaking a ritual ... - The word undertaking sticks out for me here, perhaps performing would fit better.
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
pyramid of Amenemhat I - Wikilink?
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Old Kingdom
... as well such resources as fabrics ... - I believe this should read "... as well as such resources as fabrics ..."
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Pyramid complex of Neferhetepes
The core of the pyramid was built with the same technique as the main pyramid and the cult pyramid ... - You mean the main and cult pyramid of Userkaf, yes?
Yes. I replaced with "The core of the main and cult pyramids were built with the same technique, consisting of three".Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
... as compared to those of Userkaf's Fourth Dynasty forebears ... - Forebearers, not forebears.
Are you sure? on Google Dictionnary it says "forebears" designates the ancestors of predecessors of someone, which is what I mean here, whereas forebearers is unknown.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Odd. Merriam-Webster has forebearer but Cambridge does not. Collins lists it as Americanese, so I'll assume I'm wrong here. It just seems very strange to me. You would call someone who gambles a gambler, someone who precedes a predecessor, someone who murders a murderer, but apparently you don't do that with someone who forebears (i.e. forebearer). I didn't know that. Mr rnddude (talk) 09:06, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok these subtelties of English are beyond my abilities. I could perhaps just write "predecessors" instead ?
... its roof made of gabled limestone beams ... - I tend to wikilink gabled because I'm never sure if the reader will know the meaning of the term.
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
... at the north-eastern edge of the wall surrounding Djoser's pyramid complex - Usually referred to as the "enclosure wall".
Done you are right!Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Name
The Ancient Egyptians ... - ancient should not be capitalized as it's adjectival in use, and not part of a proper noun. There is more than one such instance of this.
Fixed everywhere.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Significance
... social-political tensions - We have a proper term for this, it's socio-political (or sociopolitical for AmEng).
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Children
... this being also the name of the queen who owned the pyramid next to Userkaf's - You mean believed to have owned, as you state later in the article, her name was not found in the satellite pyramid complex. I've read something relatively recent on early Fifth Dynasty filiation, which may be relevant, but I'm not sure if it had anything to say about the relationship between Userkaf and Sahure or not. Will check when given the chance. Personally, I'm given to the 'family tree', so to speak, developed by Verner and adopted by Bàrta.
Fixed yes you are right, the attribution of the pyramid is not beyond debate.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I'm able to do for now, will review the lede later. Excellent work, as ever. Mr rnddude (talk) 06:33, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mr rnddude Thanks for your detailed reviews!Iry-Hor (talk) 07:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mr rnddude Could you please indicate whether your review is finished or not, and if so if you support or oppose the nomination ? Thank you for your input!Iry-Hor (talk) 12:35, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone through the lede as well now, but didn't have any comments to make about it. I do have a question though re ... a location that forced architects to put the associated mortuary temple in an unusual position, to the south of the pyramid. On the one hand, given the location of the pyramid inside Djoser's complex, is it not possible that he intentionally mimicked the north-south axial orientation of the Djoser's architects used? but on the other, why then not place it on the north side, as Djoser's north temple was? I haven't researched these two pyramids in depth, so maybe the answer here is obvious. Otherwise, support. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:49, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mr rnddude I have no idea, I just wrote what the source says: apparently it was sufficiently important for Userkaf to place his pyramid where it is to force his architects to violate the normal layout of the mortuary temple. Perhaps what you say is true, that they wanted to mimick Djoser's but the source does not say so, thus I guess that an in-depth study of this question show that this is not the case. Or perhaps the source just did not think of this?Iry-Hor (talk) 07:21, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Aoba47[edit]

  • Would a wikilink to Ra be helpful for this part (His reign heralded the ascendancy of the cult of Ra)? Would it be helpful to wilink him in the first mention in the body of the article as well?
Done you are right this is important for general readers.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part (In doing so he instituted a tradition followed), I believe there should be a comma between "so" and "he".
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part (were primarily concerned with both Ra's creator function and as his role as father of the king.), I do not think the "as" is needed.
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are the gender symbols next to the children's names in the infobox a common or regular practice for these types of articles? I would not think that they are necessary, but I would like to get your opinion about it.
This is now an established practice, such symbols are present in the following FA articles: Nyuserre Ini, Djedkare Isesi, Unas, Menkauhor Kaiu, Neferefre, Ramesses VI, and Neferirkare Kakai. The idea was to help the reader know at a glance the sons and daughters of a pharaoh. Because I thought without this, given that the names of these people are so different from ours it is really hard to know just from this if they were male or female.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would wikilink Fourth Dynasty in this sentence (The identity of Userkaf's parents is not known for certain, but he undoubtedly had family connections with the rulers of the preceding Fourth Dynasty.) as it is the first time the dynasty is mentioned in the body of the article.
Done and as per MOS, I have unlinked the second appearance of 4th Dynasty, which was wikilinked.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part (The Egyptologist Miroslav Verner), I do not believe "The" is needed.
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part (and was possibly a full brother to his predecessor and the last king of the), I do not think "was" is needed as it is a continuation of the previous part of the sentence.
Done thanks you are right and this makes the text "lighter" and easier to reader.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Raddjedet (myth)" part of the infobox does not appear to be mentioned anywhere else in the article and does not have a citation. The same comment applies for this "Thamphthis (possibly known as Djedefptah)" as I only see this mentioned in the infobox without being referenced or cited elsewhere.
Footnote 3 talks about this a bit. The trouble with Thamphthis is that this is a complicated situation (whether or not he existed at all) the debate about which should best be placed in Shepseskaf's article and I would like to avoid going into this here as it is really tangential to Userkaf.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since "state-god" is wikilinked in the body of the article, I think it should be wikilinked in the lead as well for consistency.
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part (According to Coppens, Janák, Lehner, Verner, Vymazalová, Wilkinson and Zemina, Nḫn here might actually refer instead to the town of Nekhen, also known as Hierakonpolis.), I would recommend putting the citations in numeric order.
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hope my review is helpful. Once my comments are addressed, I will be more than happy to support this for promotion. Have a great rest of your day and/or night! Aoba47 (talk) 16:40, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47 Of course your review is helpful! Thanks a lot for taing your time to do this for this article. I hope I have adressed all of your comments.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for addressing everything! I support this for promotion. It was a very interesting and informative read and I look forward to reading more of your nominations in the future. Have a great rest of your week! Aoba47 (talk) 10:03, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review[edit]

  • No spotchecks carried out.
  • Links: The checker tool does not highlight them, but I was unable to make the links to Verner 1994 and Verner 2000. Please check. No other link problems that I could see.
I don't understand, I clicked on Verner 2000 and all Verner & Zemina 1994 and they all worked both ways (text to ref and ref to source). Perhaps, the issue come from the fact that some of these citations are in a footnote, and the footnote being just above the ref list the screen does not appear to move when you click on it (e.g. for ref 45), yet the light blue highlight shows that it works properly.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Formats: A number of minor issues:
  • Ref 34: inappropriate mdash
Fixed.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ditto 62, 64
Fixed.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 100: requires pp. and ndash not hyphen in range.
Fixed.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 102: needs space between 2 and 90
Fixed.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 134: Oddly formatted - is the ampersand in the right place? Where does "1969" come into it? Also, inappropriate mdash.
Fixed.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Edwards out of alphabetical sequence in list of sources.
Fixed.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Language should be stated for Helck
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lepsius – language?
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nuzzolo: the text is in French. Also specify that "Dudley" refers to Dudley MA
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sethe: why are you referencing an uncited Wikipedia article?
Well I thought it nice that there is a Wikipedia article on this book. Should I remove the link from the reference ?
  • Verner 1980a – language?
It is actually in English, it is only the name of the journal which is German.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Verner 1998 – language?
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • von Beckerath 1997 – language?
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Voẞ – language?
Done.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quality/reliability: The sources are comprehensive and scholarly and I believe meet the requirements of the FAC criteria.

Brianboulton (talk) 19:33, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton Thank you for your detailed review! I have addressed everything except for your remark on Sethe, do you want me to remove the wikilink to his book?Iry-Hor (talk) 07:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note[edit]

NOTE to the coordinator: On the image review, I wanted to indicate that it had been done for the 2nd FAC of Userkaf on the 5 October 2019, so very fresh. See here.Iry-Hor (talk) 09:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Laser brain[edit]

In reading the article to determine readiness for promotion, I noticed mention of "Papyrus Westcar" which redirects to "Westcar Papyrus" and then further mentions in the article to "Westcar papyrus" (lower case). Consistency is needed. --Laser brain (talk) 13:46, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Laser_brain Fixed now it is "Westcar papyrus" throughout.Iry-Hor (talk) 14:06, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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