Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/William Edward Sanders/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 20 July 2020 [1].

William Edward Sanders[edit]

Nominator(s): Zawed (talk) 10:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about William Edward Sanders, a New Zealander who was awarded the Victoria Cross (VC) for his actions as the commander of a Q-ship during the First World War. Q-ships were merchant ships that acted as bait for U-boats which would approach on the surface but then be targeted by hidden guns. It was hazardous work and in this manner, he and his crew engaged U-boats on a number of occasions. He and his crew was killed in action in 1917. The article was put through the GA process in 2014 and then a Milhist A-Class review in 2018. I just found a new source and freshened up the article in preparation for FA. Thanks in advance to all those who stop by to provide feedback. Zawed (talk) 10:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass[edit]

  • File:HMS Prize Q-ship attacking U-93.jpg — Which of the PD-US conditions is met? It's not clear from the image description.
  • File:Ambrose McEvoy - Portrait of Lieutenant William Edward Sanders.jpg — My understanding is that if the author died in 1927, the work would not have been free on the URAA date. Is there any evidence that the work was publicly displayed before 1925?
  • Other images are free. buidhe 12:32, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Buidhe, unfortunately I don't know enough to correct the issues with those two images (both added by another editor after the A-Class review) so have removed and replaced with one that I think is OK. Zawed (talk) 23:01, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The image you added is good so I'm passing this review. Nice article! buidhe 23:03, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from AustralianRupert[edit]

Support: G'day, Zawed, I hope you are well. Thanks for your efforts with this article. I have a few comments/suggestions below: AustralianRupert (talk) 23:23, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • in the lead, suggest splitting the second paragraph at "Sanders was awarded the VC..."
  • He transferred to NZGSS Hinemoa in 1906 as an ordinary seaman. Hinemoa was a government steamer servicing lighthouses along the New Zealand coast and depots on offshore islands --> "In 1906, as an ordinary seaman, he transferred to NZGSS Hinemoa, a government steamer servicing lighthouses along the New Zealand coast and depots on offshore islands"
  • with the Craig Line: probably don't need both mentions of this
  • Once Sanders, now wounded, gave the order to fire: probably don't need "now wounded" as this has already been mentioned
  • During this engagement, Sanders: suggest using a different word to "engagement" here to vary the language with the previous sentence
  • At dawn it surfaced but no trace --> "At dawn on 14 August, D6 surfaced but no trace"?
All good here AustralianRupert, trust the same is true for you as well. Thanks for the comments, I have actioned these and my changes are here. I found another instance of close repetition of "engagement" so rephrased that one as well. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 05:56, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fairfax 1996 appears to be showing as a harvnb citation error in the References section (sorry, I missed this earlier). Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:05, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That may be a hangover from when I originally cited the print version of Fairfax. I have deleted Fairfax from the references section as I now cite the online version. Does it still show up as an error? Zawed (talk) 07:45, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That seems to have done the trick. Added my support above. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:58, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

An interesting looking character. I may do a little copy editing as I go; let me know if I mess anything up.

Nb, I intend to claim points for this review in the WikiCup.

  • Link "master's" to Sea captain.
  • "and damaged his own ship" I am not sure that "own" adds anything here.
  • "the blame for which was placed on the master". Reading master (naval) I am not sure that it is the appropriate link - "the rank gradually fell out of use from around 1890". Maybe Sea captain?
  • Link Second mate.
  • "the first by the British in the war". The first what?


That's all. A first class piece of work. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:56, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild, thanks for the feedback, I have dealt with the above points. My edits are here. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 10:42, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM[edit]

I looked this over at Milhist ACR, and couldn't find much to quibble about there. On reading through again, I have some comments:

Lead
  • just a suggestion, but given he was of field rank, you could go with "Lieutenant Commander William Edward Sanders, VC, DSO (7 February 1883 – 14 August 1917)..." and add rank and postnoms to the top of the infobox
  • suggest "was a First World War [[List of New Zealand Victoria Cross recipients|New Zealand recipient]]"
  • the Victoria Cross isn't "the highest award for gallantry "in the face of the enemy" that can be awarded to British and Commonwealth forces." since the introduction of the separate VCs. Suggest "the highest award for gallantry "in the face of the enemy" that could be awarded to British and Commonwealth forces at the time."
  • for master's certificate, link Master (naval)
  • Done, but to the sea captain article. Turns out the Master link is not the most relevant. Zawed (talk) 09:04, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Body
  • for Takapuna School link Takapuna#Education
  • drop italics and replace with quotes in "He earned the nickname "Gunner Billy""
  • link cabin boy
  • "of the availability of the position, and he promptly applied"
  • link Union Company for Union Steam Ship Company
  • for India link British Raj
  • link Ordinary seaman
  • for the sailing ships, is there indication what types of ship they were? schooner, brigantine etc?
  • Have added for the Joseph Craig. Zawed (talk) 09:04, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • for SS Willochra link RMS Fort Victoria
  • After Sanders' repeated pleas
  • the Q-ship's guns would become operationalbe revealed and open fire, as they were always "operational"
  • could you add Prizes armament when she is described?
  • for "formally commissioned" link ship commissioning
  • from the U-boat's deck guns, as the Type 93 only had one 88 mm deck gun
  • "After 20 minutes of shelling, Prize appeared to the Germans to be sinking"
  • "in which Prize encountered the UC-35 on the surface"
  • link Oberleutnant
  • the captain of the UB-48
  • struck the Prize and exploded
  • link Milford Haven
  • is there something that can be added to the lead and body about the fact that his was the only naval Kiwi VC of the war and how many VCs were received by Kiwis during the war?
  • Have added a mention about being the only naval VC. I don't think I have seen other articles mention number of VCs awarded to personnel of a specific country so didn't mention that. Zawed (talk) 09:04, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • could something be added about the colour of the riband on his VC, even if it is a note?
  • suggest trimming the caption to "Victoria Cross & DSO awarded to Sanders" (no full stop as it is not a sentence)
  • the MID in the infobox is not mentioned in the body
  • Not sure where that came from! Deleted. Zawed (talk) 09:04, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • add [[Merchant Navy (United Kingdom)|Merchant Navy]] to the Service/branch in the infobox and increase the Years of service to 1915–1917 to take it into account

That's all I could find. Nice work as always! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:11, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Peacemaker67, thanks for the review and feedback. I have actioned your points above. Thanks again. Zawed (talk) 09:04, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, great work. Supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:06, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

This needs a source review, and I'd really like to have a review from someone outside the milhist project just so we have some idea that it's comprehensible to non-specialists? --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:09, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If no one gets to it sooner, I can do it ... but it's behind a few others on my list. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:20, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ealdgyth:, with just a few minor niggles outstanding (below), the prose is competent and comprehensible to a non-MILHIST, non-sailor. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Everything addressed, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:39, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SG review[edit]

I promised to review another article first, but I glanced very briefly here and found some things to be addressed. The writing is competent and mostly concise. The last paragraph of the article has considerable text unsupported by the Teara source, so I will conduct a more thorough review when I finish the other. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:40, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Retyping my notes now. Please pardon my piecemeal approach: a very big tree fell on me a few years back, and did not kill me, but left me with injuries so that I prefer browsing in a reclined position from an iPad, and limiting my sitting time at real computer to type. I see several of my scribbled notes have already been addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:24, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please review for WP:OVERLINKing; there have been considerable edits since I first looked, but I was uncertain that yacht needed to be linked at all, and it is linked twice. India does not need to be linked.
  • OOPS, sorry, now I see why British Raj, India is linked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:22, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't quite understand why removing it was necessary. It was originally linked twice, once in the lead and once in the body. It is my understanding that this is allowable. There are other linked terms in the lead that are also present in the body. Zawed (talk) 09:17, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I agree often with one link in the lead and another in the body on technical or jargon-laden articles, but yacht is not a word commonly understood to most English speakers. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:37, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Currently. (now fixed)
  • Sanders was "entitled to" other awards ... what happened ... does one not get them if dead, or did the other award supercede them, is this a military thing a layreader does not understand, or just me?
  • The reason for this phrasing is that these other medals are campaign medals (also known as service medals) that were issued after the war. So while he was entitled to them, he never received them since he was dead by then. The medals instead would have be forwarded to his next of kin. Zawed (talk) 09:17, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hopefully destroying the submarine ... not sure hopefully is an optimal word choice here ... how about ... guns would be revealed and open fire on the submarine.
  • 12-pounder gun (now linked-- done)
  • Mate’s certificate (now linked-- done)
  • Sylt ... managed to struggle back to the Sylt ... not knowing what "the Sylt" is, I guessed it may be another ship, faulty italics, had to click to discover that it was an island ... change to the island Sylt ???
  • saw to, found[2] (now removed)
  • becalmed ... not a sailor, not a word I understood even in context, had to look it up ... give us a bit more ?
  • Have added mention of a lack of wind for context. Zawed (talk) 09:44, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • a lookout spotted UB-48 ... to all of MILHIST (and even to regular FAC readers) it is apparent that UB-48 is German, but is that clear to a casual reader ... spell it out ???
  • Have clarified but in the following sentence. Zawed (talk) 10:16, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know why Sanders opted not to follow the plan and used the ship guns instead of having the submarine torpedo? (Perhaps we don't know since he died, but do we have any idea ?)
  • Nothing to indicate why he didn't follow the plan, and the main source (Howard) doesn't speculate why. Zawed (talk) 10:16, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • use of ... were ... grammar ... was
  • I think I got all of these. Zawed (talk) 10:23, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • discreet versus discrete [3]
  • That was a typo, fixed.
  • Third para of early life needs disentangling ...
    • He joined Kapanui as a cabin boy. As regular Wikipedians and MILHIST editors, we guess Kapanui is a ship because it is italicized ... does the regular reader know that? The description of it as a ship is in the next sentence-- could be moved to first sentence?
    • The next two sentences (about the officer) gets entangled in pronouns ... which he is which.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:24, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've had a go at rephrasing the third paragraph to improve clarity, how does it read now? Zawed (talk) 10:16, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Medals and legacy
(All addressed now, but I synced the name in the lead with the name in the body). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:25, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are many memorials to Sanders ... editorializing ... let the facts speak for themselves.
  • "Best known memorial" ... not in source, editorializing.
  • Entire description of Sanders cup is not in source ... so I went looking for some mention, to try to determine if a stub could be created to indicate why this is "beat known" (indeed, if it meets notability and should be WP:RED), which led to this mess:
    • Javelin dinghy (Australasia) is an uncited mess that is mirrored at [4]
    • If Sanders Cup is so significant, and meets notability, could a stub be written? Otherwise, remove WP:RED and certainly remove mention of "best known" which is uncited ??
  • A stub/start class article could be written for it. I have come across it in another article on a New Zealand yachtie as well so will look to put together a cited article in the near future. Zawed (talk) 10:16, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Those are my notes so far; I will re-read the entire article after two other reviews I promised Ealdgyth. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:24, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looking good, I will re-read the entire article today. There may be one or two outstanding query above? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:25, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Continuing
  • Several memorials exist to Sanders' memory, including the Sanders Memorial Cup, too much memorial ... can the first memorial be changed to tribute or something else to vary the wording?
  • Entitled to ... query above ...
  • With his seafaring career to date spent working on steamships, Sanders decided to spend time ... spent, spend, can one be varied ?

Rest is all good, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:44, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • SandyGeorgia, I have finished this off. Responses above including a couple further up in the review. Zawed (talk) 09:44, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

- spotchecks not done

  • FN2 is missing publication date
  • FN18: title is incorrect, missing issue
  • Title fixed and issue number added. Zawed (talk) 06:12, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN46-47: given work title should be listed in |publisher=
  • I remember being unsure about work vs publisher when citing those two. Have put the museum as publisher. Zawed (talk) 06:12, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Updated the URL. Nikkimaria, thanks for the source review. Responded as per my comments. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 06:12, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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