Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of international goals scored by Benni McCarthy/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:32, 29 August 2017 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of international goals scored by Benni McCarthy[edit]

List of international goals scored by Benni McCarthy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Liam E. Bekker (talk) 14:11, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because Benni McCarthy is South Africa's all-time leading goalscorer in football, and is widely recognized as one of the nation's best ever footballers. All reference to career achievements and goals scored are well sourced and set out in an easy to read manner.Liam E. Bekker (talk) 14:11, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 10:26, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Quick comments
  • Linkable items should be linked every time in the sortable table.
  • Image caption is a complete sentence so needs a full stop.
  • "Africa Cup of Nations" should be "African Cup of Nations".
  • Similarly, it seems "US Cup" should be "U.S. Cup".
  • " he scored at 2002 FIFA World Cup" missing "the".
  • "He scored again against" awkward.
  • "collected both the Player of the Tournament and Top Scorer awards for his seven goals" ->"named Player of the Tournament, and collected the Top Scorer award for his seven goals" (removing the implication that he was named POTT for his goals alone).
  • "first ever ... first ever..." a little too much.
  • "since readmission." to what?
  • Refs shouldn't be sortable.
  • Bold alone should not be used to differentiate something from the rest.
  • Hash should be replaced with No.
  • row and col scopes should be added to the table per MOS:TABLE.
  • Fix WP:DASH violations in some of the ref titles.

The Rambling Man (talk) 07:46, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Response

Hi The Rambling Man. Thank you very much for the initial review. I have made all of the necessary amendments bar the one on bolding. Is that in reference to "Scores and results list South Africa's goal tally in bold?" . If so, what is the issue there? I did most of amendments separately with edit summary of each for ease of reference while reviewing. Let me know what else needs to be fixed or changed. Thanks again, Liam E. Bekker (talk) 11:01, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's what I'm referring to. It's an accessibility issue, people may have trouble discerning bold. I got round that at Rooney's list by always putting England's score first.... The Rambling Man (talk) 11:08, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification TRA. I prefer being able to distinguish between home and away matches, hence the emboldened score-lines, but I do understand the concern raised. I have amended it accordingly. Liam E. Bekker (talk) 12:43, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • You may wish to include in the lead that the 14 friendly goals included two in the HKSAR Reunification Cup which is listed as such, and not listed as a "Friendly", just to avoid confusion. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:33, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I have made mention of the HKSAR Reunification Cup and U.S. Cup in respect of friendlies.
  • Just FYI, going back over the Africa(n) Cup of Nations articles, it seems the common name changed to Africa (from African) Cup of Nations in 2006, so I've left the 2008 reference as Africa, and all others are African... The Rambling Man (talk) 07:40, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with that. Thanks for clearing it up TRA. Let me know if any thing else needs to be done. Liam E. Bekker (talk) 08:23, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
For completeness, I would just mention his retirement from international football, so we know this is now a complete and stable list. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:27, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
From what I've gathered, his international retirement coincided with his retirement from all football. Bar the temporary retirement early in his career, I don't find that he made any formal announcement as to international retirement. Liam E. Bekker (talk) 08:39, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so just a sentence that says "McCarthy retired from playing football in ...." or similar would be good. Perhaps also contextualise it with the number of appearances he made for SA in the all time list? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:42, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Does the existing sentence "...and scored one more goal before retiring from football in 2013 at the age of 35" not work? I've added a sentence on his appearances and linked it to the national team records. Liam E. Bekker (talk) 09:14, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 21:10, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • in what was the South Africa's 100th match since readmission to international football." the" needs to be removed from this sentence. Also, when was South Africa readmitted?
  • Something is off in a goal count somewhere. We say McCarthy tied Bartlett's record of 29 goals against Zambia and broke it against Paraguay, but the table shows that the Zambia and Paraguay goals were numbers 30 and 31. Did Bartlett have 30 goals instead of 29 or am I missing something?
    • The first paragraph is fixed, but the fourth paragraph still says he tied the record against Zambia and broke it against Paraguay. That still needs fixing. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:11, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see US Cup and U.S. Cup in the lead. Pick either the version with periods or the one without and use it consistently throughout the article.
  • Not sure that the last word of "African Cup of Nations Qualifying" should be capitalized. It doesn't strike me as a proper noun, and we aren't capitalizing "qualification" in the table.
  • The first two words of the List of international goals section heading can safely be removed. They don't add much, as it's fairly obvious that this is a list (the article title gives it away anyway).
  • Minor point, but references 12 and 18 could stand to have the hyphens in their titles replaced by en dashes. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Response

  • Hi Giants2008, thank you for the corrections. I have fixed the minor ones. As for your second point re: the numbers not adding up (I'm not sure how I missed that), I've added a note to the bottom of the table to explain. Both RSSF and National Football Teams accord with this. I'm not sure how to add a ref to a note but I would like to link it to ref 11 and to NFT.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.national-football-teams.com/player/6116/Benni_Mccarthy.html|title=McCarthy, Benni|website=National Football Teams|accessdate=17 July 2017}}</ref> Please let me know what you think. I'd appreciate your thoughts as well The Rambling Man. Cheers, Liam E. Bekker (talk) 11:00, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • It looks like the reviewer below took care of this for you here. For references at the end of a note, just tuck them after the content, but before the brackets at the end of the note. Check out what I left unstruck and see if you think those are worth fixing, and don't forget about N Oneemuss' comments. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:11, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hi Giants2008, thank you for the above. I've amended the article to accord with the note that was added, removed the words "list of" from List of international goals... and replaced the hyphens with en dashes. I'm busy tackling some of N Oneemuss'comments now as well. Cheers, Liam E. Bekker (talk) 06:10, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Comments from N Oneemuss[edit]

This list looks good but there are definitely a few consistency issues.

  • I took the liberty of adding the two sources you mentioned above to the note; feel free to revert if I misunderstood you or anything.
  • I'm not sure if the lead needs to say "calendar year"; I think that's what most readers would assume anyway (if you just wrote "year").
  • I'd link World Cup in the lead.
  • "Most capped" should be hyphenated, I think.
  • Maybe mention what position McCarthy played.
  • Maybe also link Burkina Faso and Cape Verde in the table.
  • The Venue column in the table has quite a few problems actually:
    • Some entries have the names of stadiums, whereas others have the names of cities. One (30) has both.
    • All the entries have a country given except for 9, which has a city.
    • No. 30 is the only entry with three pieces of information given. All of the above need to be standardised.
    • Also, how about Location as a name instead of Venue (not that I'm too bothered)?
  • The two goals against Turkey have the same thing listed in score, which is obviously wrong.
  • There's still a contradiction; if McCarthy scored two goals after equalling Bartlett's record of 29, then McCarthy would have scored a total of 31 goals, not the 32 mentioned in the article. If the note is correct, then the lead needs to be edited to reflect that.

That's all, I think. I will probably support once these comments are addressed (though I might take another look). N Oneemuss (talk) 21:27, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Response

Hi N Oneemuss, thank you for the comments and for adding the sources to the note. It is much appreciated. I have ticked off your first four points and the last two. I agree about the standardization of the venue column. I'll try and tackle that during the course of the day and get back to you. Cheers, Liam E. Bekker (talk) 06:10, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • The table has now been standardized as well. Liam E. Bekker (talk) 10:12, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nice work. I still have a few comments though:
      • Maybe provide his full name in the lead sentence (I see from his article that he's called Benedict).
      • The final score in the match against Germany is wrong (check the source, it should be 2–4). I looked at a couple of other sources and the scores were all correct, but it might be worth taking a closer look.
      • Also, not all of the sources support all of the information in the row. For example, for goal 15, source 9 only gives the final score and that McCarthy scored; it doesn't mention the date (just the month), location or score after McCarthy scored. Source 6 is similar; it doesn't support the score that McCarthy made it, or the location of the match. These are the first two sources I checked, so it's definitely worth looking at the sourcing again. You could always add several sources for one goal if you had to. (Source 3 does support some of this, but not exact stadiums or the score after each of his goals.)
That's everything. Once these (and those of my earlier comments that haven't been dealt with) are addressed I will definitely support. N Oneemuss (talk) 14:01, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Second response

  • Fixed the goals against Turkey *properly* this time, as has been done with Germany. Is there a particular reason for Cape Verde and Burkina Faso to be linked, while the other nation's remain unlinked? I've also added his full name.
    • Only because those two countries are quite 'obscure', whereas something like United States shouldn't be linked per WP:OVERLINK. Still, if you want to be consistent then I think leaving all countries unlinked would be OK too. N Oneemuss (talk) 08:24, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re: location instead of specific stadium, the precedent seems to lean toward stadium names being used as is evident with Klose, Rooney and Torres. It's probably best to keep things uniform in this regard.
  • It might be tough going that far back but I will try and find sources that are that specific and get back to you. Cheers for now, Liam E. Bekker (talk) 14:22, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi N Oneemuss, just a quick one. The source in the the caption for the table, which serves sort of like an all-encompassing source, makes reference to the date, opponent, score and competition. Would this not be sufficient to address your concerns in the very last point? Liam E. Bekker (talk) 13:12, 20 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate that it might be hard to find sources for games so long ago, and I certainly wouldn't oppose based on this issue, but there are a few things missing from the source in the caption, namely stadium name and the score after his goals. How did you find this information in the first place? N Oneemuss (talk) 08:24, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
*wipes sweat from brow* - all of the fixtures now have sources indicating venue, date, result, goalscorers, and order of goals. Please not that I've also fixed the issue re the record. The original was correct, it had only been distorted because of the mistaken inclusion of a goal scored by Shaun Bartlett. Let me know what you think N Oneemuss. Cheers, Liam E. Bekker (talk) 09:52, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It certainly looks good to me! I'm actually on holiday now (hence the late response) so I don't have time to check the sources right now, but I'll take your word for it and seeing as I wouldn't want to hold up this nomination any longer, I'll support. Great work with this list! N Oneemuss (talk to me · see my edits · email me) 20:51, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Bloom6132 (talk) 07:25, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • "Having previously represented South Africa at U-23 level" – might want to spell out "under-23" and pipelink it to South Africa national under-23 football team.
  • "… and as a result missed the 2000 African Cup of Nations." – word placement is awkward. Suggesting either "… and missed the 2000 African Cup of Nations as a result" or "… and consequently missed the 2000 African Cup of Nations".
  • "in friendlies, including two at the HKSAR Reunification Cup and one at U.S. Cup, seven" – might want to use en dashes (–) instead of commas to distinguish it from the rest of the tally.
  • Final sentence of the last paragraph: Per WP:NUMNOTES, comparable quantities should be all spelled out or all in figures.

Everything else checks out. Also, could I ask you for a favour of taking a look at my current football FLC nom? I'd greatly appreciate it! —Bloom6132 (talk) 06:43, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Response Hi Bloom6132, thank you for the comments. I've made the edits as per your above recommendations. The WP:NUMNOTES guideline was new to me too so thanks for pointing that out. I'll have a look at the Community Shield nomination this weekend and give some feedback. Cheers, Liam E. Bekker (talk) 07:12, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support – thanks for the prompt response. One last (minor) comment – the image should have alt text. That, however, won't stop me giving (long overdue) support to this great list! —Bloom6132 (talk) 07:25, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I spotted one issue in the references, but fixed it myself. Nice work. Harrias talk 08:38, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passed, promoting. --PresN 14:20, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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