Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 November 15

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November 15

In what sense was the Second Mexican Empire an empire?

Didn't the Second Mexican Empire just supplant an earlier unitary republic in its own territory? It seems to me that would make it more like a kingdom than an empire. --Trovatore (talk) 03:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

As Empire notes, the narrow definition is a state ruled by an emperor. Maximilian I of Mexico styled himself an emperor. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:50, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Declaring Mexico to be a mere kingdom would have been interpreted as a tacit admission that Mexico was not at the same level as Brazil (an empire since 1822)... AnonMoos (talk) 08:05, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

A state can name itself whatever it wants (more accurately, people who are in charge of running a state can call it whatever they want). What made it an empire is that the people in charge called it that, and called the ruler of said state an Emperor. --Jayron32 12:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

The Second Mexican Empire was a creation of the French and their Emperor of the time Napoleon III. Maximilian modelled himself on Napoleon III and no doubt wished to call himself as Emperor as a result. The French had invaded and the resulting state was the creation of conquest-like the Roman Empire of the past and the Turkish and Russian Empires of the time even thougfh unlike them it covered only one country. France of course had an overseas empire (in Africa and the West Indies) and was expanding it in Africa and into South East Asia. This empire existed when France was a Kingdom and when it became a republic in 1848. When I saw this question I assumed the "First" Mexican Empire meant the pre-Cortes Empire that was defeated by Cortes and the Spanish in the sixteenth century but I checked the Wikipedia articles and discovered Mexico had briefly had an emperor in the 1820s and this may have been another reason why Maximilian called himself Emperor and not King. In the 1820s Mexico did cover a larger area than in 1862 including California, New Mexico and Texas but that wasn't because of Mexican conquest but was land inherited from Spain and the Mexicans were there before the USA.There are and have been other single countries whose heads of state are or were styled or referred to as Emperor- Japan and formerly Iran and Ethiopia immediately come to mind. As recently as 1976 the President of the Central African Republic declared himself Emperor and lasted a such for nearly three years. That Republic had been part of the French Empire and French history may have influenced those events. Napoleon III had been President of France.Spinney Hill (talk) 18:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Help deciphering an artwork on a shirt.

I have been looking for more info on this design. I keep seeing it online and am not sure what it is. Can someone explain this? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/gu3yylbt6rcag7h/a2dec.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.253.181.100 (talk) 07:04, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

It is, reportedly, "A reticle used on the Trijicon RMR sight in Rainbow Six: Siege."^[1] I guess the "Trijicon RMR" is a weapon that can be used in Rainbow Six: Siege.

Sadurmelickh , Who is this Tartar woman?

Sadurmelickh, a Tartar woman, appears in a travel account (available online @ gutenberg.org/files) of a German Johann Schiltberger who escaped from Ottomans. Johann Schiltberger's account claims to have eyewitnessed a successful revenge with 4000 women soldiers against some Tartar king's brother.

Even if we consider 4000 number may be exaggerated and if we consider if any moderate number of 100 to 400 still conducting a successful militaristic adventure would be notable enough.

Whether historians have any success in identifying Tatar king and the woman in question. If any one gets any encyclopedic information with ref at any point of time please do share / update in @ Draft:Women, conflict and conflict zones

Thanks

Bookku (talk) 07:38, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

We may safely assume that Schiltberger's claims are not always trustworthy; see the discussion here, pages 346–348, in which the Travels are called "the Bavarian child's Robinson Crusoe", and it is said of Schiltberger himself that "he knows no myths", describing all kinds of imaginative curiosities as events he personally witnessed. Even if the Sadurmelik account is not manufactured out of whole cloth, it is likely based on a local myth, and attempts to identify the king involved or his cousin will surely prove futile.  --Lambiam 12:04, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@ User talk:Lambiam, Yes, It seems to be unfortunate likely case of myth making and fiction in supposed to be non fiction book. May be case mishandled collation of manuscript probably we will never know. When I browsed translation of Schiltberger account with search on keyword slave I felt his account is not giving enough info on topic, and info on culture of female slavery seems largely missing. Bookku (talk) 03:12, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Connotations of "Orient" and "oriental"

Hey,

From what I can tell, the word oriental/Oriental is considered by some Asians to be offensive. Is the same true of "the Orient"? Ovinus (talk) 07:41, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

The term Oriental is only considered offensive when used to describe a person. I don't think any offensive will be caused by calling Turkish tobacco "Oriental tobacco". So no, "the Orient" is just fine (unless one somehow manages to give it a racial connotation by using the term metonymically for the collective of people of Asian descent). What may be problematic is that the term has a strongly context-dependent meaning; the Orient of the Orient Express is a very different Orient from that of Orient Group Incorporation.

It would take a brave man to say that any term was inoffensive in all circumstances. Joe Biden got into trouble in 2014 for talking about "the Orient", and in some academic circles it's been treated as potentially offensive for the past twenty years. --Antiquary (talk) 12:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Who decided it was offensive, and why? <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 16:44, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Edward Said deliberately and intentionally contrived to create an asymmetrical situation in which Middle-Easterners have every right to criticize Western societies, but Westerners are perceived as having no right to criticize Middle-Eastern societies, and he had a certain degree of success in achieving this cynical Machiavellian goal -- a striking degree of success in certain corners of academia. Part of Said's malicious manipulative plan was to use the word "orientalism" as a weapon, applying it to everything he personally disliked, and to silence opposing voices. AnonMoos (talk) 22:50, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

He did not create the asymmetrical situation whereby Western societies colonized and mistreated middle-easterners. That already happened, and he had nothing to do with it. --Jayron32 12:47, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

When I was on law review in law school I raised this as an issue with the editor in chief when an author referred to some clothing fashion popular in Europe something like a century ago as Oriental. The consensus of the editorial staff was that it wasn't a problem. 199.66.69.13 (talk) 15:09, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

It was decided that "Asiatic" was offensive and it was replaced by "Asian". I can't for the life of me see why, any more than I can see why the term "near east" has been replaced by "middle east". 2A00:23C5:D10F:E000:EDD0:893B:E7E3:B62 (talk) 17:56, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I dunno. The Asiatic Barred Zone? Calling people Asiatic instead of Asian sounds like "racialists" who say negroid, caucasoid, mediterraneanid, baltid, dalmatic race etc. a lot. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

In my mother language the cognate of "Asiatic" is used to mean someone of an Asian ethnicity/Asian phenotype (eye skin folds etc.), while the cognate of "Asian" means someone who is literally living in Asia or was born in Asia (in the same sense as "American", "British" etc.). You could say that calling by phenotype/ethnicity is racist and remove that word, but then again people want to identify as Asian American or African American etc., and you'd have no words for that. 93.136.52.233 (talk) 17:50, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

They mean slightly different things, as described in here and in the lead to that article. Because of my background in archaeology, I always had a slightly different view on it anyway (detailed here). Matt Deres (talk) 20:18, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

To someone based in London, the Dutch province of Zeeland should be the Near East.  --Lambiam 21:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

And Zealand is far, far, far south, east, west, north, southeast, southwest, northeast, northwest and underneath; at that distance it hardly matters which way you go. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Orient comes from the Latin "oriens" which simply meant "the east." The opposite was "occidens" which meant "the west" "Oriental " is a much more common word in English than "Occidental" although the latter does exist. Both words are perhaps more poetic both in English and French. The Orient Express was a train running from Paris to Istanbul (Turkey but still in Europe.) The British I think referred to India as well as China and Japan as "Oriental" and it maybe that the word is thought offensive because it lumps all three together as one and also because it got coupled in public minds with " wily" "devious" or even "devillish." I feel a little sympathy with the above contributor (timed at 1756) and Bugs. Even "Asian" is sometimes used with intent to cause offence. Wikipedians outside Britain may not have heard of a profesional football (i.e.soccer) club called Leyton Orient. They were originally called Orient FC later Clapton Orient later Leyton Orient, then Orient again and now with the "Leyton" restored. According to Wikipedia "Orient" may be named after the Peninsular and Orient steamship line (P&O) but Clapton and Leyton are both districts of East London. I am sure their supporters treat being called the Orient as a matter of pride and not offence. From USA of course it is quicker to go west to reach China than to go east so Americans may have lost the "eastern" aspect of the word.Spinney Hill (talk) 18:45, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

The question would be what term, if not "oriental", is acceptable to refer to the natives of countries including China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and so on. "Asian" is being used that way, but it's not very accurate. <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 20:17, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Why should one need such a term? What do people in Japan and Laos have in common? There is no term for the Western Hemispherians, or the Tropicians, or for the Zeans (the natives of Zambia and Zimbabwe).  --Lambiam 21:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

"Western Hemisphere" doesn't mean much in England because a third of the country is in the Eastern Hemisphere. I grew up living in one hemisphere but walking to school in the other. Alansplodge (talk) 08:48, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

East Asia is a very useful term. If "Orient" has a vague indeterminate meaning larger than East Asia but smaller than Asia as a whole, then it might not be so useful... AnonMoos (talk) 22:57, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, East Asian is much clearer, as it pretty well covers the area I described. As to what they have in common, it would be cultural. And as to why anyone would "need" such a term, keep in mind that language evolves from what people want, not from what some almighty power decides. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:47, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

East Asian is much clearer, but very rarely used outside quite formal discussions. And let's be honest, when most people in the US or my country, Australia, describe someone as Asian or East Asian, they mean someone with slanty eyes. It's a politically correct word that came into use after the Vietnam War to replace the many pejorative terms that had been used up to that time and which had proliferated during that war. I can remember Gooks, Slopes, Charlie, and Slants. Users of the term East Asian typically have no precise idea of the ancestral background of people they describe that way. HiLo48 (talk) 02:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I guess the police have a legitimate interest in describing wanted persons as clearly as they can. "A person of Asian appearance" covers a lot of ground, but equally it eliminates a great deal of other ground. If that's all they have to go on, I don't know what other term they might use. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:50, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

You'd think so, but it turns out that police departments that use broad racial categorizations (as opposed to individualized descriptions of suspects) are far more likely to use racial profiling in inappropriate ways (i.e. to unequally harass people who belong to those broad racial categories) and to unequally arrest, charge, and incarcerate people from those racial groups for minor offenses (they get arrested for things that people of other ethnic groups don't, when arrested, they get charged with crimes that arrested people from other ethnic groups don't, and they get incarcerated for the same crimes that people of other ethnic groups are charged with). See Here for example. Basically, using broad racial categorizations in policing does not result in better identification of suspected, but it does result in unequal enforcement of laws, and disparities in imprisonment of racial minorities compared to people in the majority ethnic group. --Jayron32 16:33, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

What I'm getting at is, if they are told the person they're after "looked Chinese", that is something they can use to narrow down the range of suspects. They know that "looked Chinese" could mean the person is Chinese or Japanese or Vietnamese or Lao or various other nationalities, so it'd be best not to limit it to Chinese. Maybe they'd say "East Asian" in appearance, to distinguish them from South Asian. There's nothing racist about using such a characteristic to help locate a potentially dangerous person. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:47, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. You may be interested in the IC codes used by police in the UK in a vain attempt to avoid accusations of this sort. BTW, "IC 4 Asian" refers to people originating from the Indian Subcontinent, who greatly outnumber any other Asian ethnicity in this country (see British Asian). Alansplodge (talk) 08:39, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh yes. As a devotee of the much-missed The Bill, I was aware of IC-1 males, IC-4 females etc. It took me a while to work out what the codes meant, as they were never explained in the show. Are schoolkids routinely taught these codes? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. It's really only for internal police communications. Alansplodge (talk) 09:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

It's interesting, given where this question began, that if you follow the link from IC codes to Self defined ethnicity, the more detailed list of codes used by the UK Home Office, Asian (Indian subcontinent) ethnicities have the prefix A, Black have B, mixed have M and white have W - but Chinese have O. Turner Street (talk) 11:38, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Nancy Joe at Quiberon?

This is a bit of a long shot! I have in my head a phrase half-remembered from a book read in childhood. The phrase is "Nancy Joe at Quiberon" and the book would have been read in the 70's of the last century. "Nancy Joe" was, as best I can recall, a sailor's mangling of the name of a ship, or perhaps a captain (much like Billy Ruffian for HMS Bellerophon), and Quiberon would presumably be the Battle of Quiberon Bay. I've got a feeling it was used as an example of courage or good seamanship or suchlike. So - can anyone identify the ship or the book? I don't think it was a Hornblower. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 16:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

This the one? It would only cost you £1.50 + p&p to find out for sure. --Antiquary (talk) 17:31, 15 November 2020 (UTC) If so, the ship in question would be HMS Vincejo (1799), known as Vincey Joe, captured by the French at Quiberon Bay in 1804. --Antiquary (talk) 18:23, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Antiquary: You're good! Definitely right about the ship, and Showell Styles rang a bell. Looking at that page I'm certain I read some of the Midshipman Quinn books, and Vincey Joe at Quiberon looks like I would have read that if I'd had the chance. I'll get a copy. Many thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 19:44, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Education

Hi guys, I'm not sure whether this is the right desk to ask this, but... if someone had a degree in English Education and they wanted to become a lawyer in the United States, what should they do? I assume law school is the next step, but how long would the whole process take? Are there any special degrees they have to get? Pardon my poor English. Thanks. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 16:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Miss Bono: In all (or mostly all?) states in the U.S., you need a Juris Doctor degree from an accredited law school. This normally takes three years, but can also be done in two or four depending on the school. After that, you need to take the Bar Exam to be admitted to the state's Bar Association and then you can practice law. RudolfRed (talk) 17:57, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) See Law school in the United States. 2A00:23C5:D10F:E000:EDD0:893B:E7E3:B62 (talk) 17:59, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

As the Law school in the United States article states, law school for JD, then pass the bar exam is most common but being America, 50 states means more than 50 systems. One state does not require the exam if you attend one of their state law schools (and a few others have temporarily suspended the requirement during CoVID). Several do not require law school or a JD but do require the bar exam. One state requires two different bar exams for some students. Rmhermen (talk) 18:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Hello Miss Bono. The first step is for the aspiring lawyer to get a high score on the Law School Admission Test, commonly called the LSAT. There are commercial test preparation services. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:23, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Also remember that lawyers don't practice in the United States, they practice in a particular state. Passing the bar in Maine may not have any bearing on practicing law in Louisiana. One would have to determine which states (if any) have reciprocity agreements with the state in which you initially pass the bar. --Khajidha (talk) 18:22, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

If you are still looking for a new username, perhaps Cui Bono?  --Lambiam 13:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I have a friend who made his living as the lead singer in a U2 tribute band. He was a pro Bono. --Jayron32 15:27, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the answers! They were really helpful. Miss Bono

On the off chance it wasn't clearly and plainly answered: If you have a bachelor's degree you just have to take the LSAT and apply to a JD program at any ABA-accredited law school. There are a few that don't require the LSAT but almost all the ones worth attending do. And yes, there are a few special cases where you don't have to go to an ABA-accredited law school, but I recommend against that. If you must work full-time, there are many law schools with evening programs. 199.66.69.13 (talk) 04:14, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Also one more thing: If you're from a country other than the USA or Canada, it may be easier, and certainly cheaper, for you to stay in your current country and get a bachelor of laws (LLB) degree and then come to the US for a one-year master of laws (LLM) which will enable you to sit for the bar exam in any state. 199.66.69.13 (talk) 13:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)