Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 January 5

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January 5

Is endos a Japanese or English word and what does it mean?

Is endos a Japanese or English word and what does it mean? Venustar84 (talk) 00:29, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Could you show us a link or give us a sentence where you read it? --Jayron32 00:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I read it right here: http://wiki-sentai.wikia.com/wiki/Dora_Endos

It isn't an English word, I can tell you that. No standard online English dictionary recognizes it as anything. --Jayron32 00:47, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

To be Japanese, it would have to be "Endosu". Some names which end in "-os" are Hungarian or Greek. In English, "endos" could theoretically be a plural of "endo", which could theoretically be a shortening of endomorph or endoscopy or whatever, but that seems an unlikely origin for the name of a comic-book monster... AnonMoos (talk) 01:12, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

It is not Hungarian, as 's' is pronounced /ʃ/ in Hungarian. 'εντος' ('endos') is Greek, meaning 'within'. It is probably just a name which has been randomly picked to make it sound exotic. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

It's not Japanese. Maybe a coined word. Oda Mari (talk) 07:30, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Some suggested it could be short for short for endoscopic? Or it could mean refix meaning inside, internal, or within. Or example humans have ENDOskeletons while crabs have exoskeletons. Exo means outside. But how does it relate to this creature from the Japanese show:

http://wiki-sentai.wikia.com/wiki/Dora_Endos That I can't comprehended. Venustar84 (talk) 00:59, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

aren't Endos a type of breath mint? μηδείς (talk) 03:12, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

They're made by the Inyu Candy Company, IIRC. --Jayron32 03:16, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

That's the one. You put it in a kid's mouth and then give them a can of diet coke. The explosion is hilarious! KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:06, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

A man is knighted and a woman is...?

If a man is knighted, a woman awarded the same honour is what? Damned? Surtsicna (talk) 00:43, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Though she is titled "Dame", the process by which the British Monarch grants said title is still called "Knighting", as far as I can tell. When I search for names of well-known Dames (Helen Mirren, Judi Dench, etc.) regarding their elevation by the queen, the term "knighted" as a verb appears to have widespread use. Thus, we can say that a woman is knighted, and is then titled "Dame". --Jayron32 00:56, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you very much. Surtsicna (talk) 00:58, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

perhaps "Lady Knight"? Venustar84 (talk) 01:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps not. The answer would be a verb in passive voice, to match "knighted". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:36, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Technically it look like she is appointed to an Order of Chivalry, because there is no such thing as a knight bachelorette. The lower orders taking the title Dame, the highest orders Lady see, Dame (title). Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:13, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying the appropriate verb is "appointed"? If so, that would also apply to males appointed to orders of chivalry at the knight level, but they're said to be "knighted", rather than appointed. "Appointed" is used for people who are admitted to lower levels of orders, such as Member, Officer, Commander, Companion etc level. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:36, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Jack. Surely the honour is still a Knighthood whether you are a Knight or a Dame? Alansplodge (talk) 09:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I suppose the difference is that a knight is traditionally dubbed with a sword as part of the investiture ceremony, and for many people, that is when the person becomes a knight, not a moment earlier. That procedure is never applied to women who become dames, so the traditionalists would argue that they are not knighted at all. But in common parlance, people become knights or dames from the moment of the public announcement, e.g. Bradley Wiggins has properly been referred to as "Sir Bradley Wiggins" from New Year's Day and he doesn't have to wait till his investiture ceremony later on this year to go from Mr Wiggins to Sir Bradley. Same with new Dames. So, in that sense both are "knighted" by virtue of the public announcement. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:19, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

So what you're saying is, sword or no sword, they're damed if they do and damed if they don't. --Trovatore (talk) 10:56, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Obviously time for you to go "knighty-knight". A good knight's sleep will do wonders for you. Just relax now, and calmly drift off, to the strains of "Help me make it through the knight". I just hope you don't have horrible knightmares about babies being thrown onto bonfires.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:44, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Lay and laid

I was doing this online (grammar) test here, and one of the questions was, "When I Got Home From Work, I _______ In Bed For Thirty Minutes" (here), and the options were "lay, layed, laid, and lied." Considering the sentence begins with "got home," which would imply past tense, I put "laid" as opposed to "lay," and apparently that's incorrect. But from what I looked up, "laid" is a past tense of "lay." So, who's right? Thanks. 174.93.61.139 (talk) 02:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

'Laid' may be the past tense of 'lay', but the verb you were looking for was 'lie', not 'lay'. The past tense of 'lie' is 'lay.' To lay is always transitive (taking an object) but to lie is always intransitive (not taking an object). For example:

Correct: I lay in bed for thirty minutes.

Correct: I laid my watch on the table.

Incorrect: I laid down.

Incorrect: I lied my things on the table.

72.128.82.131 (talk) 02:05, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Just to be picky, the past tense of lie is lay when used in the sense of "extend one's body horizontally". It's lied when used in the sense of "knowingly tell an untruth with intent to deceive". --Trovatore (talk) 02:12, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Should it have been lie across my big brass bed? --Jayron32 02:15, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, unless ol' Bob meant a verb that is rarely used intransitively. —Tamfang (talk) 06:21, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

See also Lay and Lie: Commonly Confused Words. Alansplodge (talk) 09:43, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Among some English speakers, the use of "lay" for "lie" (e.g. "I laid down") is so prevalent that, I'm told, the correct "I lay down" actually sounds wrong to them. (To me, though, "I laid down" sounds grating and uneducated.) 86.160.216.227 (talk) 12:08, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

What about the following example: "I laid down a smokescreen to cover my squad's advance"? Wouldn't "laid down" be the correct form in this case? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 05:12, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, because it's used transitively there: you laid something down. -- Elphion (talk) 06:27, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Getting laid is never wrong 203.112.82.128 (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Like --Jayron32 19:25, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

 Dislike 86.160.216.227 (talk) 19:54, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You don't like getting laid? How depressing is that? Never mind, we don't do medical advice here. 0:) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:16, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

It's the "Like" icon that I dislike. 86.160.216.227 (talk) 20:20, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

42 users like this. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:21, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

But you don't seem to mind the Dislike icon. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:38, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

That's irony. 86.160.216.227 (talk) 20:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that wrinkle, ironing it out. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:07, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Getting the shaft

Where does the phrase "to get the shaft" come from? Was it originally a euphemism for rape? Or do its origins lie in the medieval joust (where "to get the shaft" would presumably mean to get run through by your opponent's spear)? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 05:46, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Where does the phrase "to get the shaft" exist? And what's it mean? From your IP address I can tell you're in the US. I'm in Australia. A common expression here is to "get shafted by" someone. It's to have something unfairly done to you that puts you at a severe disadvantage. Same meaning? HiLo48 (talk) 05:52, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what "to get the shaft" means here in the USA. 24.23.196.85 (talk) 05:56, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

As in the lyrics of a country song talking about a divorce: "She got the gold mine, and I got the shaft". StuRat (talk) 06:41, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

From Etymonline: O.E. sceaft "long, slender rod of a staff or spear," from P.Gmc. *skaftaz (cf. O.N. skapt, O.S. skaft, O.H.G. scaft, Ger. schaft, Du. schacht, not found in Gothic), which some connect with a Germanic passive pp. of PIE root *(s)kep- "to cut, to scrape" (cf. O.E. scafan "to shave") on notion of "tree branch stripped of its bark." But cf. L. scapus "shaft, stem, shank," which appears to be a cognate. Meaning "beam or ray" (of light, etc.) is attested from c.1300. Vulgar slang meaning "penis" first recorded 1719. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

So in other words, unless the phrase originated in the 18th century or later, it probably meant getting speared rather than getting raped. Is that what you meant? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 06:05, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

An alternative etymology (which I've only come across in coal mining areas) is that of being pushed down a mine shaft. Given the local nature of this explanation I wouldn't expect to find it in any dictionaries. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:46, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

From the same source quoted by KägeTorä; ""treat cruelly and unfairly," by 1958, perhaps from shaft (n.1), with overtones of sodomy."[1] I may have had a sheltered upbringing, but I don't remember hearing it (in the UK) before the 1980s. Alansplodge (talk) 10:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I find Tammy's third hypothesis very intriguing -- in fact, I also had thought of it before (although in the context of being sent down to the mines as a form of forced labor), but dismissed it as too artificial. And yes, this explanation also seems very plausible -- when miners quarrel, accidents are likely to happen... 24.23.196.85 (talk) 20:35, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

According to the Online Etymological Dictionary, this expression originated in the 1950s, probably with an implication of rape. Marco polo (talk) 21:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks everyone! So since this is a recent usage, it's most likely that it was just another way of saying "to get screwed" -- not pushed down a mine shaft, and definitely not run through with a spear. Just like I thought most likely. 24.23.196.85 (talk) 07:25, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

A rat by any other name...

In English, an informer is colloquially known (mainly among criminals or people who emulate criminals) as a "rat" or a "weasel", among other words; in Russian, the common word is "stukach" (literally, "knocker"). What are the corresponding words in French, Dutch, German, and/or Flemish? Thanks in advance! 24.23.196.85 (talk) 05:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I haven't heard "weasel" used to mean this in English, just my namesake and "stool pigeon". To me, a "weasel" is somebody evasive, like a politician: Q: "Who is responsible for this disaster ?" A: "Mistakes were made". StuRat (talk) 06:39, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I've encountered this usage of "weasel" as "informer" once, in Tom Clancy's war novel Red Storm Rising: "Alekseyev [the Russian army group commander] sat on the edge of his desk. He lit a match and burned the message form [that Sergetov, the Red Army inside man in the KGB, brought him to warn about the informer on his staff], watching the flame march across the paper almost to his fingertips as he twisted it in his hand. 'That fucking weasel [he said]. Stukach!' An informer on my own staff! 'What else?' " 24.23.196.85 (talk) 02:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

In Jack Vance's Demon Princes series, a "weasel" is an agent of the Interworld Police Coordinating Company working in the lawless Beyond. —Tamfang (talk) 17:19, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

A grass in British English. Dbfirs 09:28, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

A contraction of "snake in the grass", "from Virgil's Latet anguis in herba [Ecl. III:93]"[2]. Alansplodge (talk) 09:35, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Alternatively, rhyming slang. Grasshopper = shopper. To shop someone, to inform on them to the police. From cop shop = police station? Itsmejudith (talk) 17:53, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

My English/French dictionary gives balanceur - literally "swinger". Alansplodge (talk) 09:56, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I have never heard balanceur, but une balance is usual, un donneur, une donneuse (even for a man), un doulos (slang). A little bit less colloquial: un mouchard, un indic (short for indicateur), un mouton (for a prisoner). — AldoSyrt (talk) 10:59, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Snitch is quite common too - particularly in the context of a police informant among criminals. Roger (talk) 10:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Merci, everyone! So, of the words Aldo listed, which one(s) is/are most likely to be used in a political context (as in, an informer ratting out the opposition in occupied France during World War 2)? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 20:30, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

If you mean French who cooperated with the Nazis, "collaborator" is the term I'm familiar with, although their cooperation wasn't necessarily limited to snitching on their fellow Frenchmen. StuRat (talk) 21:29, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, but I was asking for a colloquial term as used in a casual conversation, not a formal term. 24.23.196.85 (talk) 05:50, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I think I'll go with "mouchard" -- "indic" sounds too formal, "balance" or "balanceur" too ambiguous, and "doulos" like something that a criminal would say (as opposed to a rogue SOE agent talking to a Resistance fighter with a couple of kids within earshot). 24.23.196.85 (talk) 07:31, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

In German, the best word might be Verpfeifer based on the verb verpfeifen, meaning roughly "snitch". A word with a more negative connotation (implying betrayal)—that might be used about someone who snitched to the enemy—would be Verräter, based on the verb verraten (not cognate with English rat, by the way). Marco polo (talk) 21:48, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Right, "verraten" means "to betray". 24.23.196.85 (talk) 05:50, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

In contrast to the verb verpfeifen the agent noun Verpfeifer is not widely known (I saw it two lines above for the first time in life). It seems to be an attempt to translate whistleblower (see this newspaper article of 2009 and note that they put it in quotes as a newly-created word). According to de:Informant in casual conversion de:Spitzel (paid) or Verräter (unpaid) might be adequate, but it depends very much on the situation. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 07:40, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

"Spitzel" sounds better to me, so I'll go with that. Thanks! 24.23.196.85 (talk) 09:10, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Germann: For Verpfeifer I agree. It is not a nominalization I have ever seen. Nor used. Nor does it sound natural to me in any way. The common (highbrow) word would actually be Denunziant -- which is as far as I can tell, Cognate to "denounce" in English. While I otherwise am in agreement with Pp.paul.4, you could also try Judas, that being a form of Antonomasia. It should be understood and I have heard that one used in informal contexts. Context dependent, you might also find the term "inoffizieller Mitarbeiter", shortened "IM", of use; such was the title of (of course informal) Stasi spies in the GDR. -- Abracus (talk) 15:45, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

At school in Australia an informer is often described as a dobber, or even worse, a dibber-dobber! HiLo48 (talk) 00:45, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

In Australian prison slang an informer is a "chocolate frog", rhyming slang for "dog". It's the name of one of Jim McNeil's best known plays. No, I am not making this up. The "old familiar juice" is gaol brewed moonshine. Ray Mooney (no article yet), better known for the Everynight ... Everynight, the play that was adapted to the 1994 film of the same name wrote a play called A Blue Freckle. "Freckle" means "arsehole/asshole", in its literal meaning. A "blue freckle" is a gunshot wound. --Shirt58 (talk) 08:55, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

From a passing-by french in a hurry : "balancer" is = to "to chuck, to dump" (a good french police film : "La Balance") - a "doulos" is a felt hat, like those worn by policemen in the '50 (a good film with Alain Delon : "Le Doulos") T.y. 81.164.0.32 (talk) 05:06, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

For the fims, follow the links in my previous post. (In "Le Doulos", the main actor is Jean-Paul Belmondo, not Alain Delon) — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:41, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

And a "mouchard" or a "donneur"? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 07:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

The word mouchard ([3], A.- 1.) comes from mouche (lit. a fly [4], II.-, D.-, 2.), old slang for "spy" or "police informant". Because, informants surround and follow, like flies, those under suspicion. The word donneur ([5] B.-) comes from the verb donner ([6] I.-,A.-, 2., c), γ))= "to squeal". — AldoSyrt (talk) 13:37, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Aldo! Looks like "donneur" would be the best term to use in my case -- as I said, I think "balanceur" would be too ambiguous, while "doulos" would not have the right connotation (the mental association between a felt hat and an informer would most likely occur to a criminal, whereas my characters are SOE agents and Maquis/Kreisau Circle guerrillas rather than common criminals). 24.23.196.85 (talk) 02:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Balanceur simply does not exist. Doulos is old fashioned "argot" (and only used by criminals). No one use it anymore (but the movie is great !). There's a slight difference between "une balance" et "un mouchard". Un mouchard is someone who is in a group with the specific purpose of spying. At the very least, he's been doing it for a certain time. That's very close from "indicateur" (but indicateur is a police term). Snitch is a good translation. Une balance is someone who, when asked what is going on in the group, will quickly betray his group. He's the one who talks. So, depending on what you mean, you can use both for describing someone who's ratting out during the occupation. If he's been doing it for a certain time, especially if he's in a "resistant" group with that specific purpose, he's a mouchard/indic. If, when the Germans interrogate him, he quickly talks, he's a "balance". --80.13.10.56 (talk) 18:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Merci beaucoup for the explanation, 80 IP! And if the informer just eavesdrops on people he dislikes, and denounces them when he gets the chance (as many informers in the Soviet Union had been doing), would that make him a "balance", a "mouchard", or a "donneur"? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 02:10, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

An informer who eavesdrops on people on a regular basis is cleary a "mouchard". Especially if he has close ties with the police, he is also "un indicateur (de police)", more commonly called "un indic". --Gede (talk) 16:00, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! 24.23.196.85 (talk) 02:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Cambodian/Khmer help

Hi! What is the Khmer for:

• State Secretariat of Civil Aviation http://www.civilaviation.gov.kh/images/banner1.GIF
• Cambodia Angkor Air http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cambodia_Angkorair_logo.png

Please post it in text so I can insert it into the articles Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 06:19, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

រដ្ឋលេខាធិការដ្ឋានអាកាសចរស៊ីវិល State Secretariat of Civil Aviation

កម្ភុជា អង្គរ អ៊ែរ which is Kampuchea, Angkor, and "air" transliterated to Khmer script--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 08:08, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! According to http://www.civilaviation.gov.kh/law_civil_aviation.pdf, រលអស is the Khmer abbreviation for the first, right? (SSCA is the English abbreviation) WhisperToMe (talk) 10:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not familiar enough with that particular organization to confirm its "official" abbreviation, but I can confirm that is the one used in the publication you linked. Also, I just corrected an error I noticed in the Khmer script, there was a diacritic missing below the ស in the word ស៊ីវិល.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 17:06, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the help! Yeah, it has to be the Khmer abbreviation because SCAA is definitely the English abbreviation WhisperToMe (talk) 21:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Is there a database of lyrics with faulty language?

Pop songs in English (especially by non-English speakers, but not exclusively) not too rarely contain mistakes in English grammar or vocabulary ("So when you really love me, darling..."). Often it is not easy to decide whether it is correct English or not ("All I want is loving you..."). To avoid being influenced by that - is there a database to list such mistakes? --KnightMove (talk) 12:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

There's a lot of flexibility in poetry, which is what songs are. First, I'd like to hear why you think the two phrases above are "mistakes". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:03, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

In the first case it must be if, not when, as the meaning is "in case you love me", non "as soon as you love me".

In the second case, Google search indicates that "All I want is [a specific activity]" is using to+infinitive, not participle: "All I want is to love you". Testing this for several verbs, infinitive is hundreds to millions times more usual, which indicates that participle is plain wrong. --KnightMove (talk) 16:39, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

When does not need to mean "in case" in that sentence. Rmhermen (talk) 17:20, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

It means more like "Once you really love me..." or "If you really and truly love me..." or "If you've got the hots for me" ... bring me Leontopodium alpinum. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:30, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

"All I want is loving you" does not necessarily equate to "All I want is to love you". "Loving you" is often a polite poetic euphemism for getting laid, and another euphemism such as "to make love to you" has too many syllables to fit the sentence. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:38, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

KnightMove -- several external links at bottom of article Mondegreen... AnonMoos (talk) 17:37, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• The two sentences aren't so much wrong as they are unidiomatic. They can be understood, but under normal circumstances they wouldn't be spoken by a native English speaker. μηδείς (talk) 18:29, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Spoken, probably not. But in poetry, the rules of normal prose don't necessarily apply. Just listen to the repeated cry of "Call Me Maybe". The words could be used that way, but not the way she's singing them. Or a more gross example, "We don't need no education..." And again I say, there's nothing wrong with either of the OP's phrases when used in poetry/singing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:12, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
    • The line from Help! that goes "I know that I just need you like I've never done before", always struck me as odd, like it should be "I know that I just need you like I never have before", but that doesn't sound quite as poetic. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:22, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I find nothing the slightest bit odd about that line. --ColinFine (talk) 22:29, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

It is very British. No one in North America uses "done" like that, at least. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:34, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

It sounds "odd" to this American, but not incorrect. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:30, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

No discussion linking ungrammatical lyrics and Paul McCartney would be complete without a mention of "the world in which we live in" (Live and Let Die (song)). 86.160.216.227 (talk) 20:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

It can also be interpreted as "this ever-changing world in which we're livin'...", which is awkward phrasing also. Since he's not-rhotic ("when you were young and your hot was an open book..."), "we're" sounds a lot like "we", hence the discrepancy. This falls into the Mondegreen category. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:35, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I found an interesting piece at [7] in which McCartney himself seems unsure, but "thinks" it's "in which we're living". 86.160.216.227 (talk) 20:49, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Artists only produce art, they don't explain it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:08, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Talking of lyrics misheard/misunderstood as ungrammatical, the lyric "If I lay here / If I just lay here" in Chasing Cars used to drive me absolutely nuts until I realised it was subjunctive(?) past tense, as in "If I went there". 86.160.216.227 (talk) 23:46, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

See http://www.hooksandharmony.com/20-songs-bad-grammar/.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:36, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

While it's true that poetry can break grammatical rules, I agree with the questioner that the lyrics he has cited sound wrong, or at least weird, to a native speaker. Marco polo (talk) 21:32, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I've been a native American English speaker all my life (so far) and I don't see a problem with the lyrics. The proposed "corrections" to them don't sound right, for pop songs. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

See Category:Songs with nonsensical lyrics.

—Wavelength (talk) 22:08, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to all for the information. In case anyone is interested, there is a famous similar example to the Paul McCartney quote above in German: In the original version of Falling in Love Again (Can't Help It), Marlene Dietrich sings "Männer umschwirren mich wie Motten um das Licht" (Men cluster to me like moths around the flame) - the second "um" is redundant. --KnightMove (talk) 14:14, 9 January 2013 (UTC)