Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 December 18
| Language desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < December 17 | << Nov | December | Jan >> | Current desk > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
December 18[edit]
phrasing: is "researching on a biography" correct?[edit]
My intuition tells me it should be "researching a biography" or "doing research on a biography." Or better yet, "doing research for a biography", because the former options would imply the biography itself is being researched (?) Самекх (talk) 16:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- "Doing research for a biography" is clearest. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:49, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Самекх: "Researching on a biography" is not a construct I recognise as valid. "Researching a biography" can mean either "investigate an already-written biography", or conduct research with a view to either creating a new biography, or amending an existing one. You're correct in suggesting that a few more words make things much clearer, and agree with AndyTheGrump. Bazza (talk) 16:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- To me, "researching <OBJECT>" and "doing research on <OBJECT>" mean the same: to do a study into, or thorough examination of, the object of research. Someone who wants to write a biography of J. Alfred Prufrock should research the life and times of J. Alfred Prufrock. This may include reading existing biographies, but I wouldn't call their perusal "research". They are then doing this for a purpose: they are doing this research for an envisaged biography. If, on the other hand, an expert is called upon to determine the provenance of a libelous biography, the expert is asked to research said biography. --Lambiam 20:50, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- I omitted "ing" on my original reply, and have inserted it. Bazza (talk) 21:10, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Ashterix and the Chieftain'sh Shield[edit]
In the Finnish translation of Asterix and the Chieftain's Shield, all the Arvernian Gauls speak Gaulish in a dialect where they say all the "s" sounds as "sh". For example, a hypothetical sentence (not actually present in the book) would be "By Toutatish, theshe Romansh are crazy!" This form of speech does not seem to appear in the English translation. I haven't read the book in any other language than Finnish or English. Is it present in the original French, or in any other translation? JIP | Talk 23:11, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- It is present in the German translation and, if I'm not mistaken, in the original French. Arvernians also appear in Asterix in Corsica, Asterix and the Chieftain's Daughter and The Golden Sickle. Evidently, it is characteristic for the French dialect of the region. Not so long ago I was looking on youtube for examples of that as I'd never actually heard that, but strangely without success. --Wrongfilter (talk) 23:18, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- I just remembered, my youtube search was prompted by Guy de Maupassant's fr:Mont-Oriol, which has a few locals speaking in patois: Ché pas vrai bougrrre que t'as chauté par-dechus le foché... ("C'est pas vrai que tu as sauté par-dessus le fossé..."). --Wrongfilter (talk) 23:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- I checked with my own French copy, and I can confirm that it's present in the original French edition. Surprising that it'd be absent in the English edition, since there's even a joke about a young kid speaking regularly (nine times in a single word balloon), with the punchline that he has a speech impediment and lisps... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:38, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- The joke about the young kid is present in the Finnish translation. In the English translation he says "Sausages for afters, everyone!" Asterix or Obelix asks "Why did he slam the door so hard?" to which Winesandsprix answers "We Arvernians are rather fond of bangers." JIP | Talk 01:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Hmmm, a bit unclear why the English translators deliberately decided on removing the dialectal jokes. Maybe they were considered too French, or it could have been a notion of political correctness(?) Although the Asterix albums contain much worse examples in that regard (such as the small African messenger boys later on in the album, which I suppose is a Flintstones-like gag about pneumatic tube transport). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- The French dialectical jokes would have been completely opaque to most English readers, who are generally unfamiliar with French dialectical variations. (Most adults are probably intellectually aware that they must exist, but 99% won't know what they are, and the expected child readership of Asterix works will be even less au fait with them.) {The poster formerly known as 87,81,230.195} 90.205.111.170 (talk) 01:08, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Sure, but most other translations still seem to have kept the pattern. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 02:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps to avoid having to create an entirely new joke that would still fit with the drawings? BTW, does the "bangers" pun appear in North American editions? I imagine that it wouldn't make a great deal of sense there. Alansplodge (talk) 14:41, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- The joke is just that the kid's pronouncing the s:es in saucisses/ sausages regularly, so it would work in English, too. The Swedish translation is a simplification with a literal translation of "korvar" (and a missed opportunity to include "salami"). I'm not sure if there are official North American editions, but I agree that the "bangers" pun is incredibly British. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Wakuran, educated Americans are familiar with the British phrase "bangers and mash", and know that it describes a sausage and mashed potato meal. Similar meals are not uncommon in the United States. I cooked it here in California a couple of weeks ago. With peas. Cullen328 (talk) 09:24, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- (ec) From my experience as a foreign reader who first came across Asterix as a child, it doesn't matter whether that speech pattern is present in the French dialect or not (that would be different from French readers), it is entirely sufficient to understand that the Arvernians in the Asterix universe speek like that. The English joke seems cheap in comparison and doesn't explain Obelix's bafflement. --Wrongfilter (talk) 15:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- The slurring of s to sh is used to indicate drunkenness in English writing, and I think is used as such in the book in question. So it can't be used to signal a dialect unless ou want to suggest that all speakers of it are drunk. DuncanHill (talk) 16:07, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. Might be the best explanation, so far. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:51, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- hm, there's one story with a spy who looks like Sean Connery; does he talk funny in English translation? —Tamfang (talk) 22:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- The slurring of s to sh is used to indicate drunkenness in English writing, and I think is used as such in the book in question. So it can't be used to signal a dialect unless ou want to suggest that all speakers of it are drunk. DuncanHill (talk) 16:07, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- The joke is just that the kid's pronouncing the s:es in saucisses/ sausages regularly, so it would work in English, too. The Swedish translation is a simplification with a literal translation of "korvar" (and a missed opportunity to include "salami"). I'm not sure if there are official North American editions, but I agree that the "bangers" pun is incredibly British. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps to avoid having to create an entirely new joke that would still fit with the drawings? BTW, does the "bangers" pun appear in North American editions? I imagine that it wouldn't make a great deal of sense there. Alansplodge (talk) 14:41, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Sure, but most other translations still seem to have kept the pattern. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 02:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- The French dialectical jokes would have been completely opaque to most English readers, who are generally unfamiliar with French dialectical variations. (Most adults are probably intellectually aware that they must exist, but 99% won't know what they are, and the expected child readership of Asterix works will be even less au fait with them.) {The poster formerly known as 87,81,230.195} 90.205.111.170 (talk) 01:08, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Hmmm, a bit unclear why the English translators deliberately decided on removing the dialectal jokes. Maybe they were considered too French, or it could have been a notion of political correctness(?) Although the Asterix albums contain much worse examples in that regard (such as the small African messenger boys later on in the album, which I suppose is a Flintstones-like gag about pneumatic tube transport). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- The joke about the young kid is present in the Finnish translation. In the English translation he says "Sausages for afters, everyone!" Asterix or Obelix asks "Why did he slam the door so hard?" to which Winesandsprix answers "We Arvernians are rather fond of bangers." JIP | Talk 01:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- I checked with my own French copy, and I can confirm that it's present in the original French edition. Surprising that it'd be absent in the English edition, since there's even a joke about a young kid speaking regularly (nine times in a single word balloon), with the punchline that he has a speech impediment and lisps... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:38, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- From Occitan phonology (emphasis mine): In Auvergnat, most of the consonants, except /r/, can have a palatalized sound before i and u. Consequently, the consonant phonemes have two kinds of sounds, one being not palatal (by default) and the other being palatal (before i and u): /p/ → [p, pj]; /b/ → [b, bj]; /t/ → [t, tj]; /d/ → [d, dj]; /k/ → [k, kj]; /ɡ/ → [ɡ, ɡj]; /f/ → [f, fj]; /v/ → [v, vj]; /s/ → [s, ʃ]; /z/ → [z, ʒ]; /ts/ → [ts, tʃ]; /dz/ → [dz, dʒ]; /m/ → [m, mj]; /n/ → [n, nj]; /l/ → [l, lj]. — Kpalion(talk) 17:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know if it is the same dialect but a similar device was used in the Spanish dubbing of Welcome to the Sticks to render Ch'ti. --Error (talk) 16:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Entirely different. The Ch'ti are from the North, the Auvergnats from, well, Auvergne, in the centre of France (around Clermont-Ferrand). It should be noted that the Auvergnat mentioned by Kpalion is not a French, but an Occitan dialect, not sure whether how relevant that is. Incidentally, I've found an example on youtube, albeit a comedic one, at [1], listen to the bloke on the right at 0:09 or 0:42. --Wrongfilter (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. A scene from "Bienvenidos al norte"/"Welcome to the Sticks" in Shpanish dubbing. They change s to Spanish pronunciation: [ʃ]. In El escudo arverno, the Arvernians change s to ⟨ch⟩. --Error (talk) 17:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm, those quotation marks in the Spanish edition come across a bit forced... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:14, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. A scene from "Bienvenidos al norte"/"Welcome to the Sticks" in Shpanish dubbing. They change s to Spanish pronunciation: [ʃ]. In El escudo arverno, the Arvernians change s to ⟨ch⟩. --Error (talk) 17:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Entirely different. The Ch'ti are from the North, the Auvergnats from, well, Auvergne, in the centre of France (around Clermont-Ferrand). It should be noted that the Auvergnat mentioned by Kpalion is not a French, but an Occitan dialect, not sure whether how relevant that is. Incidentally, I've found an example on youtube, albeit a comedic one, at [1], listen to the bloke on the right at 0:09 or 0:42. --Wrongfilter (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
