Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Equestrian statue of Edward Horner

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by AustralianRupert (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 08:57, 19 December 2017 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Equestrian statue of Edward Horner[edit]

Nominator(s): HJ Mitchell (talk)

Featured article candidates/Equestrian statue of Edward Horner/archive1

This is a little different to my memorial articles so far and I'm looking for some detailed feedback. Does it make sense, is the structure logical, is anything missing, does it leave you with any questions? What could be added or taken away? I'd really appreciate a few experienced eyes on this before I decide whether it's worth taking to FAC. I wrote this after working on Mells War Memorial and wasn't expecting to have more to write about this than the village's main war memorial. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 07:37, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hawkeye7

Wouldn't it have been more conventional to have one hoof raised, indicating that he dow?
- I thought that was a myth? Our article says (unsourced) it's an urban legend. In any case, the serenity of the picture would have been quite deliberate knowing Lutyens.
  @HJ Mitchell: I would wager its more that it is a varying practice in some countries, i.e. some countries always follow the rule, some occasionally, some never. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 07:14, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Horners were able to secure Edward a transfer first to the Royal Horse Guards and then, in October 1914, to a cavalry regiment—the 18th (Queen Mary's Own) Hussars" The Royal Horse Guards (The Blues) was a cavalry regiment. (It's now part of the Household Cavalry. At ceremonies they were a blue jacket and a helmet with a scarlet plume.) The point is though that someone who was second lieutenant in the Royal Horse Guards could be a lieutenant in a regular cavalry regiment. Which basically tells me that the family was well-connected but not really well-connected.
- They had the connections (a close family friend had Churchill's ear, Asquith was once a regular visitor and his son married their daughter), but they weren't incredibly wealthy by the standards of the landed gentry (something Edward had a reputation for forgetting!) so they were sort of second-class aristocrats.
"The 18th Hussars were at that time part of the 11th Reserve Cavalry, stationed at Tidworth Camp in Wiltshire for training, after which they were deployed to the Western Front in early 1915" The 18th Hussars went to the Western Front in August 1914. The 11th Reserve Cavalry was its affiliated training regiment back in England. He would have joined his regiment in 1915.
- That's a useful detail, thanks.
It's really unusual for a British gravestone to have an individual inscription. In fact, I've never seen one. Suggest getting someone from WM-UK to drive round and get a photograph of it.
- I didn't realise it was that unusual. I thought the CWGC did it on request (possibly requiring a fee, which might explain why it's not ubiquitous). I'm hoping to get to France next spring (and Mells sooner) for photos of this and various other things.
  Thruppence ha'penny per character, including spaces and punctuation, up to ₤1. The Australian government paid for up to 66 characters, which is why there are far more Australian graves with personal inscriptions. ("Love from Mum, Dad and Dave", "And also for your brother Jack, who drowned in the Darling", etc) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:53, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:10, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much, Hawkeye! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:37, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I know you're away, Hawkeye7, but is this a support? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:13, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Very much so. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:50, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Carcharoth

In this sentence: "Sir Edwin Lutyens was among one of the most distinguished architects for war memorials in Britain." either the word 'among' or the phrase 'one of' is superfluous (is this sentence used in the other Lutyens memorial articles you have been working on?).
- Must be a copy-editing error. I do use this sentence, or a variation of it, in most of the articles in the series but thankfully I haven't made this mistake in any of the others.
"He became a national figure" - I believe Lutyens was already a national figure (he was initially knighted in 1918). He may have become more famous, but he certainly attained his fame and renown through his non-memorial work as well, so saying that his memorial work made him a national figure may be slightly misleading and/or overstating the case.
- What I meant to say was that he became a national figure in relation to war memorials, rather than that the memorials made him a national figure; I've tweaked it.
You say the statue was installed in 1920. Horner died in 1917. Is there no hint at all for a date when the family first approached Lutyens and gave him the commission? It would be a pity to have this part of the story missing if it has been recorded anywhere.
- It is a pity, but there doesn't seem to be a record of it anywhere. The closest I've found is Jane Brown in Lutyens and the Edwardians, who says "Lady Horner summoned him" but doesn't give a date. We know he installed the wooden board in August 1919 because he wrote about it in a letter to his wife and it seems to be implied that the statue was underway by then but there's noting conclusive. I've found this repeatedly with Lutyens' memorials—details like this were either not recorded at all or they're a "by the way" in a letter to Emily. With the civic memorials, the local authority usually has a record of that sort of thing, but with a private memorial like this the only people who would know when it was commissioned would be the architect and the client and it leaves us frustrated if they didn't think to record it.
In the Colin Amery sentence, you say he "described Lutyens' works as "some of his finest memorials"". I am struggling to understand this - how can Lutyens' works be some of his finest memorials (finest examples of his memorials, or finest memorials to the memory of Lutyens)? That sentence seems to need tweaking in some way. Maybe what is meant is that his memorials are some of his finest works? (i.e. switch 'memorials' and 'works')
- I've been back to the source and re-written the sentece slightly.
The fact that there was a family chapel there seems to imply this, but was this the church at which the family (and Horner himself) worshipped? That might be worth bringing out more. Frances (his mother) lived until 1940 and the father until 1927 that brings to mind them worshipping there in the presence of the memorial to their son. Having a local individual memorial erected by a family that could afford it was not uncommon, but what is uncommon is for the memorial to be a statue (most such memorials, usually erected by wealthier or aristocratic families, were plaques or tablets on the local church wall, but statues are rare - other examples I am aware of are Lord Ninian Crichton-Stuart, Tom Kettle, and Willie Redmond, who were famous in other ways as well).
- There's not a lot in the sources about their religious activities but their ancestors significantly rebuilt the church I think and multiple generations of Horners are buried there. Katharine converted to Catholicism and had a chapel built at the manor at some point. How much of that do you think is worth including?
  - The Horner connections to the church are worth highlighting, I think. I did find this which said that the Horners were all laid to rest in Mells. Katherine, Mark, Frances and John are all there in the church graveyard. Cicely (the elder daughter) is in Newmarket. Edward in France. This is getting a bit far afield, though! Carcharoth (talk) 16:33, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Is it possible to know whether the cost of the memorial was more or less than would have been expected? i.e. Did Lutyens (and maybe Munnings) work for a reduced (or zero) fee given the family connections? i.e. Is the cost of "over £1000" (which seems a bit vague) about what would have been expected for a memorial of that type at that time?
- As I recall, only one or two of the books actually give the cost at all and none specify the breakdown. It's possible that Lutyens waived or reduced his fee, and possible that Munnings did similar given that he hadn't yet established himself as a sculptor and the personal nature of the memorial, but nothing is recorded.
Is there a way to bring out the fact that having an expensive individual memorial erected like this to a fallen soldier was not a common occurrence? (e.g. compared to the others commemorated on the village war memorial, Asquith excepted).
- Even Asquith doesn't have such an elaborate memorial. Lutyens did a few memorials to individuals but as you say this is exceptional. Can you think of a way to make this clear(er) in the article?
  - Not right now, but if I think of something I'll pop a note on the talk page. Carcharoth (talk) 16:33, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Off-topic, on the general topic of CWGC grave inscriptions, it is not that unusual for there to be grave inscriptions. You will find examples in most cemeteries. I am not sure if there are any statistics available on that, though the CWGC are making the inscriptions more prominent now in their revamped website. And for those really interested in the topic, I would recommend the Epitaphs of the Great War website. It may be worth noting that the same epitaph was used on Raymond Asquith's grave. If this inscription was only used on those two graves, it may have been because of the close connection between the families. Other than that, the article looks in excellent shape. Carcharoth (talk) 12:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that they both have the same inscription. My guess is that it was suggested by the same person (Lady Horner was fond of poetry and literature and exchanged letters with literary friends, which is how the inscription on Mells War Memorial came about) but I haven't seen anything else that makes the connection. Thank you very much for your attention to detail. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:53, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Carcharoth, can you confirm whether you are supporting promotion to A-Class based on your review and Harry's responses? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:13, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, am happy to support. Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Iazyges[edit]

To come soon. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 07:14, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"The Equestrian statue of Edward Horner stands inside St Andrew's Church in the village of Mells in Somerset, south-western England. It was designed by the architect Sir Edwin Lutyens and the sculpture executed by Alfred Munnings. It is a memorial to Edward Horner, who died of wounds in the First World War." May wish to reorder this to:
"The Equestrian statue of Edward Horner is a memorial to Edward Horner, who died of wounds in the First World War. It was designed by the architect Sir Edwin Lutyens and the sculpture executed by Alfred Munnings, it stands inside St Andrew's Church in the village of Mells in Somerset, south-western England."
"He served as a civilian war artist with Canadian cavalry during the war, having been judged unfit to fight due to lack of sight in one eye." Does this mean that he was assigned this duty by the government, due to his inability to serve with the uniformed troops, or he took it upon himself to do this?
That is all my comments. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 15:03, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Iazyges, thank you very much for taking a look. I kind of wanted to avoid mentioning Edward Horner twice in the opening sentence, and to explain what and where it is. I don't want to bore the reader by telling them that the Equestrian statue of Edward Horner is a statue of Edward Horner, but if you think it needs reordering I'm happy to look at other options. I've added a little detail on Munnings; see what you think. Thanks, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:32, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to Support this now. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:24, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review all images appear to be appropriately licensed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:51, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.