Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Frank Borman
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 10:20, 7 September 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list
Frank Borman[edit]
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
Frank Borman (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
| Toolbox |
|---|
Frank Borman was one of the first three men people to travel from the Earth to the Moon, as the commander of Apollo 8. He was also a USAF colonel, a test pilot, a businessman and a rancher. He's now 91 years old, and since the death of John Glann back in 2016 he is now the oldest living former astronaut (being eleven days older than his Apollo 8 crewmate Jim Lovell). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:40, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
Support Comments by AustralianRupert: G'day, Hawkeye, this looks pretty good to me. I have a few minor comments/observations. Regards, AustralianRupert talk 10:30, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
- A nearby stretch of Interstate 94 has been named the Frank Borman Expressway after him -- suggest moving this out of the Early life section as it breaks up the chronology
- Unlike the junior high schools in the area, the high school was racially integrated -- is this significant to the biography?
- His first ride in an airplane was when he was five years old.[2] -suggest moving this to earlier in the article to maintain chronology
- told him that he could kiss his Air Force career goodbye -- are these Yeagar's words exactly? If so, I think it would be best to put them in quotation marks
- political unrest in the streets of Europe and America --> "political unrest in Europe and America"?
- the following terms appear to be overlinked: University of Arizona, United States Naval Academy, Michael Collins (astronaut), Agena target vehicle, orbital mechanics, Jim Lovell, Kennedy Space Center, Bill Anders, Time Person of the Year
- Time magazine chose the crew of Apollo 8 as its Men of the Year for 1968, recognizing them as the people who most influenced events in the year -- this seems a bit duplicative of the Awards and honors section
- ...and in December 1970 ... and he moved to Miami.[104] -- might be best to split this sentence
- suggest reformatting the Darch citation for consistency (for instance compare Darch with Jennings)
- in the References, is there an ISSN or OCLC for the Butz work?
CommentsSupport by CPA-5[edit]
Another astronaut's nomination. Great, I can't wait to see this one promoted.
- reported to Perrin Air Force Base in Texas for basic Link Texas.
- pilots were being sent to Korea Link Korea.
- at Moody Air Force Base in Georgia Link Georgia.
- attended the USAF Survival School at Stead Air Force Base in Nevada Link Nevada.
- Link California.
- Link Colorado.
- Link Maryland.
- Panama, desert survival training at Stead Air Force Base in Nevada Unlink Nevada.
- two craft came within 30 centimetres (12 in) of each other British centimetres.
- Link Florida.
- 4,000 head of cattle on 160,000 acres (65,000 ha) Link hectare not a lot of people know what a hectare is.
- Well I personaly heard about hectares before but I baraly use it or had to use it. So in my thoughts it is unknown to the public. But if it is in the English-speaking world official at schools then I do not have to say anything except to let it unlinked. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 21:21, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- In the 1998 HBO miniseries From the Earth to the Moon Sea blue here.
- while practicing dive bombing with a bad Dive bombing needs a hyphen.
- I don't think so. See Dive bomber. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- F-84s, swept wing F-84Fs and T-33s Swept wing needs a hyphen.
- There was fifty hours of geology You mean were?
- also included lunch time You mean lunchtime?
- Afterwards, Borman was sent on a goodwill British afterwards.
- modules were made, in order to oversee Remove "in order" here.
That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:20, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Hey Nikki could you please have an image review here? It also needs a source review but I putted this page in our discution page. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:35, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
Comments by Kees08[edit]
- The NASA liaison? landing mission, he was NASA liaison at the White House,
- Not usually referred to with his middle initial, I think with President Richard M. Nixon.
:I thought that form was the conventional American one. Google ngrams says that "Richard Nixon" is the more usual form, so changed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:49, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- Probably should be lowercase became Senior Vice President for Operations
- Believe layoff is one word and lay offs
- Verifyability of heritage is usually a big issue in these articles, I would put a citation right after the comma He is of German descent,
- Believe hometown is one word considers his home town.
- Maybe from instead of with? taking lessons with a female instructor, Bobbie Kroll,
- 'An athletic scholarship' to secure a sports scholarship,
- Do we need the 'had'? so he had volunteered to join the Army,
- Can you sneak in a way to show why that was important, perhaps in footnote form? At least mentioning his political position. him that he knew Richard F. Harless,
- Is this an ENGVAR issue? Sat sounds odd to me, I would use 'took' He also sat the West Point entrance examination;
- Than him, unless there is an English rule I am missing older than he,
- Something wrong with the grammar here In order that USAF officers from West Point had equal seniority with those graduating from the United States Naval Academy,
- Not sure what is wrong. Re-phrased to "So that USAF officers graduating from West Point had equal seniority with those graduating the United States Naval Academy, the entire class was commissioned four days ahead of their graduation." Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:49, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- Think this should be was, 'the group was', 'the team was', 'the class was' all sounds correct. Think it is if the group is treated as a group or individual persons, if I recall the last time I looked at this. the entire class were commissioned four days
- This seems unimportant, unless there is another reason to include this? His boyhood friend Wayne Crutchfield was his best man.
- Should be relevant to say this is in Nevada were changed to Nellis Air Force Base.
- On or in? Most of his flying was on
- Technically microgravity there were zero-G flights in modified
- Seems like this could be clearer, like 'Borman introduced the students to high altitude flights' or similar, based on what the intent of the training was Borman introduced training with the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter.
- Is this wikilink necessary, also was he the one building the house or did he pay that amount? Sentence is unclear signed his first house-building contract
- Could potentially include this photo in the Test Pilot School section. I tried contacting Edwards, but there is no digital way to contact them (contact form is broken, no email given), so I would have to call them next week. They have class photos, they are all posted in a hallway somewhere at the Base, so presumably they might have them scanned. Might be a good addition to that section.
- Some more information on his POW efforts, if it is useful: interview
- [Congressional testimony https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la7dyQiY2cg], in case it interests you
- One of the four of the Nine sounds a bit silly Borman was one of four of the Nine
- This could be a footnote to keep it focused on Borman (not strong preference though) although See was killed in a jet crash three months before his mission.
- Could remove 'then' The race was then on to launch
- Lower case the Senior Pilot (later known as the Command Module Pilot)
- Lower case as the Lunar Module Pilot);
- If he was backup on the second, why would he have been on the fourth and not the fifth?
- Looks like there was only a two mission rotation on Apollo in 1965
- Apollo 1: Grisson, Eisele, Chaffee backup/Apollo 3: McDivitt, Scott, Schweickhart
- Apollo 2: Schirra, White, Cunningham backup/Apollo 4: Borman, Bassett, Anders
- Looks like there was only a two mission rotation on Apollo in 1965
- I sent an email to the Senate Historical Photo person to try to find one of Borman testifying to Congress on Apollo 1.
- Period after St St Louis, Missouri,
- What time zones are we using? at 08:37 on December 15.
- Maybe use the word 'stimulant' or 'alertness aid' to describe the drug, for those unfamiliar with it? The two astronauts were pumped up with the help of dexedrine.
- Think this comma is unnecessary Scott Crossfield, and fellow astronauts like John Young.
- I would rephrase to "Testing parachutes to accommodate this additional weight" Testing the parachutes that had to be redesigned to ensure that they could hold the additional weight
- I remember the reasons why he did not want anyone to know was because he did not want the press to find out and spin it, right? Inserting the reason he did not want to tell Mission Control would be a good addition.
- Didn't they go on a private loop to tell him? Trying to remember if Borman even know they told MC but Lovell and Anders wanted to inform Mission Control.
The private loop Mike Collins is referring to is on the ground, and is not a special communications frequency to the spacecraft. Several 'loops', or communications channels, exist throughout Mission Control. These loops allow controllers working on a particular function to have a private conversation between themselves and support staff, without having to filter out the chatter of unrelated conversations. Often, controllers would be 'plugged in' to several loops: The Flight Controllers loop, their connection to their SPAN (Spacecraft Analysis) room, and perhaps to another controller.
Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- Logical quotation so comma outside, yeah? "One of the things that was truly historic," Borman
- They landed Friday night, but only had to wait 45 minutes for daylight? Mission ground rules required a daylight recovery, so the crew had to wait 45 minutes for the frogmen to open the hatches.
- Makes it sound like he was seasick on the carrier, not sure if that is the correct timeline Borman became seasick and threw up, and was glad to be on board the recovery ship, the aircraft carrier USS Yorktown.
- I think 'leave the gravitational influence of the Earth' is technically incorrect (the Moon is under the gravitational influence of Earth, after all), but I am not sure the proper phrasing at this time. ever to leave the gravitational influence of the Earth and orbit another celestial body.
- Back to back sentences starting with 'they had', not sure if it can be avoided: They had survived
- having only a fifty-fifty chance of fully succeeding.
- I think the Apollo 8 section could include more detail on how Borman militantly fought scope creep, preventing additional experiments and television broadcasts.
- Can't recall, should President be capitalized in this situation? convinced the President to omit
- I think his POW efforts deserves more than a sentence. Whose idea was it? Where did he go? Did it help?
- For what, why eight years after retirement? On October 1, 1978, he was awarded the Congressional Space Medal of Honor.
- I was reading into this the other day, and it was not immediately clear: was Frank Borman heading a special commission that was investigating if his sons acted inappropriately? If so, is there any coverage on his impartialness?
- Maybe converted instead of changed? I see changed as going back and forth as many times as needed, while converted is more permanent. Maybe my grasp of words is flawed. of being quickly changed from passenger
- I think this phrasing is odd, but keep it if you like it As at North American, he
- Should Cadillac be singular here? plush offices, Cadillacs and Mercedes company cars
- Does this warrant more detail? Afterwards he served on the South African Board of Inquiry into the 1986 aircraft crash that killed Mozambican president Samora Machel.
- For how long? What does this company even do? He became CEO of Patlex Corporation in 1988.
- It make lasers. (See Gordon Gould.) Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- Britannica at least has when his tenure ended. Do we have any more than that? Kees08 (Talk)
- Same question on logical quotation comma before publicly," declared Borman,
- Good citation for this? I recall an IP editor adding a citation to many pages for induction into the museum, but someone was able to get their hands on a copy and was having trouble validating the citation. and the International Air & Space Hall of Fame in 1990
- What year? and DeMolay International Hall of Fame.
- He was interviewed for at least this one, which would be different than just appearing in it (appearing it in would be an assumed default, if they were using footage of the mission) He appeared in the Discovery Channel documentary When We Left Earth: The NASA Missions,
- If this didn't receive non-NASA coverage, not sure we should include it On November 13, 2008, Borman and his fellow Apollo 8 crewmates, Jim Lovell and Bill Anders, appeared on the NASA TV channel to discuss the Apollo 8 mission.
- Same with the next point really. Hard to draw the correct lines for the 'in media' section and make everyone happy though.
- I could have sworn I posted on the talk page about this, but I guess not. I recall finding some newspaper articles on confusion w/ the name of the highway and some other small details that could possibly be included. May be nice to add detail on it I-80/I-94 in Lake County, Indiana, which runs through his birth town of Gary, Indiana, is named the Frank Borman Expressway
- Where's WP:USROADS when you need them? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- I messed up the filename move I just did on Commons (used Apollo 8 instead of Gemini 7) and am figuring out how to fix my mistake appropriately. Anyone watching feel free to chime in, otherwise I will wait for others to respond via other channels. Sorry, thanks. Kees08 (Talk) 07:31, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- Was this school built? Could be added to the school list. Looks like it opened. And looks like it is in the article already. I suppose maybe add one of these sources for a secondary source on the school.
- Found two sources indicating a planetarium named after him was going to be built in Tucson. It wasn't, so not sure if it should be included. Seems like it got coverage though. Source 1 Source 2
- This clipping is kind of neat, never find stuff from their pre-astronaut days. Probably could find a spot in the article for it if you would like, no big deal otherwise. Just thought it was cool.
- Any more to this story?
- All I can say is that Goldwater chose to run again in 1974 and 1980. He was succeeded by John McCain III in 1987. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- I think we usually include honorary doctorates (link).
- I don't usually; they are too hard to keep track of. Let me know if you find a list of them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- University of Arizona
- South Dakota School of Mines
- Illinois Wesleyan University
- Pitt
- Air University? (has photo that can be used for this paragraph)
- Indiana University
- Arizona State University
- Clarkson University
- Hope College
- I don't usually; they are too hard to keep track of. Let me know if you find a list of them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- What about Susan's Alzheimer's? Seems worth including. Source.
- Where to draw the line on Hall of Fames? He was inducted into a high school hall of fame; that seems like an easy one to exclude. He was also inducted into the Arizona Aviation Hall of Fame (added) (another source, if needed), and the Indiana Aerospace Hall of Fame. Maybe the cutoff should be his home state, or a minimum of the national level? Not sure, hoping to hear your thoughts.
That's all for now, hope to finish it up later. Kees08 (Talk) 20:49, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- G'day Kees08, just wondering if you'd get a chance to finish up here, as this seems to be progressing well? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:05, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Source review[edit]
- Refs #80 and #140 could do with retrieval dates.
- Ref #106 needs the page number (page 18).
- Ref #114 has missed out the second page, so it should be "pp. 1, 14." rather than "pp. 1."
- Ref #116 has a publication date of December 24, 2019. I can't access the page (GDPR restriction) to confirm what date it should be, but that clearly isn't right.
- Refs #117, #119 and #135 are missing author details and dates of publication.
- There is a general lack of consistency about whether to include the location in the publication details; some have it (such as ref #124 for the Fort Lauderdale News) while others don't (such as ref #106 for the Fort Lauderdale News). Be consistent; personally I would prefer more rather than less, so would recommend adding in those that are missing it.
- Note also that ref #124 goes so far as to include the newspaper title AND the publisher (United Press International). Unless you want to dig that out for every paper, I'd trim that out.
- Similarly the formatting for how Newspaper.com clippings are dealt with varies.
- Ref #144 is missing author details.
- Cernan, Eugene; Davis, Don (1999) is missing the publisher location.
- Cullum, George W. (1950) has a link provided; is there an equivalent one that can be provided for Cullum, George W. (1960)?
- Sources with ISBN/ISSN or OCLC don't need retrieval dates, but it's no real issue. (optional, NFA)
That's the reference formatting complete. More to follow. Harrias talk 20:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
- The Project Gemini section relies heavily on Hacker, Barton C.; Grimwood, James M. (2010) which is published by NASA themselves. Can this be shown to have the "level of independence from the topic the source is covering" that WP:RS requires?
- Same question for Ertel, Ivan D.; Newkirk, Roland W.; Brooks, Courtney G. (1978) and Brooks, Courtney G.; Grimwood, James M.; Swenson, Loyd S. Jr. (1979)
- Similarly, a lot of the article is sourced to an autobiography of Borman; same question? Harrias talk 20:23, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
- Like most memoirs these days, it is really a biography written in autobiographical form. It is acceptable to use such pources. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- I would not have too many concerns if these sources were used sparingly in the article; however, the autobiography is the exclusive source provided for 2143/6803 (31%) of the words in the article. The parts about his earlier life are fair enough, and later some of it is used to source Borman's opinions and speculation which are appropriately specified inline.
- A further 647 (9.5%) of the article is sourced to the three NASA History books, and there are a variety of other NASA sources used too.
- Personally, unless you can demonstrate that these sources are considered to have a "level of independence from the topic the source is covering", I am uneasy about the article being based so heavily on them. However, I would be happy to defer to your fellow @WP:MILHIST coordinators: or @Nikkimaria:, who is a far more experienced source reviewer than I. (Note that I have yet to conduct any checks for close-paraphrasing.) Harrias talk 09:16, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- I tend to agree with Hawkeye on the memoir given the way it is used and what it is used for. Regarding using NASA sources for information on an astronaut, I would have thought that is where you would start. The source only needs to be independent of the subject (Borman), not independent of NASA. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:29, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Like most memoirs these days, it is really a biography written in autobiographical form. It is acceptable to use such pources. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the formatting fixes, that all looks good now. (NFA)
- Spotchecks against don't reveal anything of concern. (NFA) Harrias talk 10:53, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Non-sources comment
- Could the infobox image be captioned with the year of the photo, if possible? I think it would add value to the image. Harrias talk 20:26, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
Image review[edit]
- File:Gemini_VII_patch.png: don't think this is simple enough to use textlogo. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:52, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- AFAIK it is a NASA artwork. @Kees08: Is this correct? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, though I am unsure what is meant by the last couple of sentences on the NASA Image and Video Library. Kees08 (Talk) 14:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- The original is a NASA work and therefore in public domain. But the editor who created the SVG file placed cc-by-sa-3.0 on it. As far as I know, an artist cannot recreate a work that is in the public domain and copyright it. I believed it meets the criterion for a text logo so I placed {{PD-Textlogo}} on it instead of {{PD-USGov-NASA}}. The derivative is simple geometric shapes and text. Seeing the original now, I should have used {{PD-USGov-NASA}}.
- As for the last few sentences here, that can basically be covered by {{Trademark}} which I added. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 15:25, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, though I am unsure what is meant by the last couple of sentences on the NASA Image and Video Library. Kees08 (Talk) 14:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- AFAIK it is a NASA artwork. @Kees08: Is this correct? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Support from Coffeeandcrumbs[edit]
I have read this article many times and have no reservation to support. I will add some nitpicking comments:
- Ref #19 – Add
|date=February 3, 2003 - Ref #39 – Add
|date=May 2, 2009|last=Naftali|first=Timothy(the director of episode) - Ref #54 – Add
|agency=Associated Press - Ref #100 – Add
|last=Carter|first=Jimmy|date=October 1, 1978 - Ref #101 – Link is dead. Archive is here. Consider adding Borman et al, as authors.
- Ref #102 – Add
|location=New York, New Yorkfor consistency. Or remove location for other citations to The New York Times and other newspapers where the location is part of the name of the paper. - Ref #103 – Add
|date=December 1993 - Ref #106 – Add
|agency=Associated Press|via=Newspapers.com - Ref #115 – Add
|last=Augustus|first=Bruce|work=SAM Speaks - Ref #118 – Remove ISSN for consistency
- Ref #120 – Time is overlinked
- Ref #124 – Page number is actually
|page=3E - Ref #127 – Add
#page=5to the end of the URL for quicker access - Ref #129 – Add
|date=January 3, 1969 - Ref #130 – Add
|last=Levinstein|first=Joan|date=January 3, 1969|publisher=Time. This citation might work better with {{cite book}} and|title=Person of the Year: A Photo History|chapter=Astronauts Anders, Borman and Lovell: 1968. I wish we knew the name of the editor. - Ref #137 – Shorten
|title=Our Enshrinees - Ref #138 – Use actual webpage title:
|title=Astronauts – Frank Bormanor|title=Frank Borman - Ref #139 – Page number is actually
|page=1D - Ref #140 – Use actual webpage title:
|title=Colonel Frank Borman: Astronaut - Ref #141 – Add
|location=New York, New Yorkfor consistency. See comment above about ref #102 - Ref #142 – Unreliable source. Use
{{cite news|url=https://www.cleveland.com/tv/2008/06/post_1.html|title=Discovery launches six-hour series on space program|last=Luttermoser|first=John|date=June 5, 2008|work=The Plain Dealer|access-date=August 30, 2019|location=Cleveland, Ohio|language=en-US}}. This source confirms the documentary was released in 2008. So probably need a slight rewrite of the relevant sentence to mention year in the "In the media" section. - Ref #143 – IMDb again. Use this source for Race to the Moon but I could not find a perfect source for Earthrise: The First Lunar Voyage except for this source which sadly does not mention that the footage was repurposed.
- Ref #144 – Add
|last=Feinberg|first=Al - Ref #145 – This American Life should be in italics; it is a serial work. Add
|last=Kestenbaum|first=Davidand maybe|editor-last=Glass|editor-first=Ira
Hope that was not too much. Ping me for FAC. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 13:10, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.