Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 2

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Team Infoboxes

Alright - I've noticed as I've been editing team articles that there are a gigantic amount of different infoboxes for each article.

I've seen a total of seven (so far) different types of team infoboxes, and I think it's about time we began to standardize a bit. Some of them can be broken down into categories of similarity, others stand alone, but I'm linking to the team pages which have which.

The Loose Styles:

Loose Icon-Only Style
Penn State Nittany Lions football

Loose Icon and Title Style
San Diego State Aztecs football

Loose Icon and Title with Helmet Style
LSU Tigers football

Loose Icon and Title with Helmet Style with Labels
Hawaii Warriors football

The Block Styles:

Block Style without Title
Michigan Wolverines football

Block Style including financial info without Title
Ohio State Buckeyes football

The Stand-Alone Block:

Different Block Style with Title
Iowa Hawkeyes football

Some of these are radically different than others - from looking around, the majority seem to be with the 'block style', though many football articles still lack one. I ask that we reach a consensus before we add more infoboxes for us to change in the near future. Which should it be? --Nomader^Talk 01:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up, this is exactly what the project is for. I like the Michigan one the best. I think financial info shouldn't be on there, or if it is, at the bottom. Ohio State's was WAY too long too. I think Michigan's should be the base and we can add a bunch of info/fields from there. --MECU≈talk 02:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I havent had a chance to go through all of them closely yet but I must say I do like the Michigan one but I really dislike the grid lines inside of the template. Thats my personal preference.--NMajdan•talk 03:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you in that Michigan's is the bestat the current moment in time and with the fact that the grid is ugly. Perhaps we should make a fusion of Michigan's good information and Penn State's rather classy looking infobox? I like Penn State's, but the lack of a title and some information is a big downside. --Nomader^Talk 04:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Nomader that the Michigan and Penn State's should be combined. Just my two cents. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 04:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree with the above that we should combine the two. We need a standard order of presenting the information as well, i.e. do rivals go before or after stadium in the infobox? It would be nice if we could transform this into a template where we can just do something like rivals=Oregon Ducks|Stadium=Reser Stadium etc. etc. VegaDark 06:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

(reset) I fully plan to make a template, once we get some agreement on what needs to be in it. I'll probably do it next week sometime unless someone beats me to it. --MECU≈talk 17:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I really don't care for the Michigan box, but I think it's mostly the lines that cause that. I really like the look of the Penn State one, though. I figure we'll need team logo, name, coach, home stadium (seating capacity), colors, mascot, nickname, fight song name, conference championships, national championships, number of all-americans (maybe), over-all record (with maybe breakdowns by era too), maybe athletic director. I'll keep thinking, but I bet that would cover most of the info we want.z4ns4tsu\^talk 17:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't like the 'look' of the Michigan one either, but it has most of the information we'd need in the infobox - yet, the Penn State one just looks classy. One big thing I do like though about the Penn State infobox is that it lists the championship years on it, instead of having large annoying lists in the pages. If we could somehow incorporate that into what Michigan has now, I think we'd have a good infobox. --Nomader^Talk 20:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

So I think we've agreed we want the content of the Michigan box with the appearance and layout of the Penn State box.--NMajdan•talk 22:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

With a title thrown in there as well - the one main problem other than info on the Penn State box. Other than that, I think that's the consensus. --Nomader^Talk 22:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Hope you haven't started on one Mecu cause I threw one together today. Was a slow day at work. I'm currently debugging an issue with the school colors but other than that, I think I got it. Let me know what you think and if there's anything that should be added/subtracted. {{NCAAFootballSchool}}--NMajdan•talk 21:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

No I haven't. Looks good. Some suggestions: Center the Italicized headers? Or push them out a little more? Also, maybe add a Conference Record under Team Records? Perhaps Conference Titles shouldn't just be a number, since then you could specify what conference(s) it was? ie, 2 Big 12, 5 Big 8, etc? Also, maybe a field for starting year of football? Or number of years (less useful). But really, it does look good. I've see the same color problem on other templates too. --MECU≈talk 22:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments Mecu. I moved the italicized headers over a little more. I can still move it more or just center it. I think conference titles should be a number because win I visit more athletic sites, thats how they list it. But technically, anything can go there. Its not like that field invalidates any number or has some isnumber() function attached to it. I will add the starting year for football as well. Also, I moved your comment to the template talk page as well so we can switch this conversation to the proper place.--NMajdan•talk 22:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Texas Bowl

Is the Texas Bowl in any way, shape or form connected to the EV1.net Houston Bowl? If they aren't, I assume we should split the Texas Bowl article. Or, do we keep Houston Bowl results in the Texas Bowl article. Your responses will help resolve a dispute on if previous results from the Houston Bowl should or should not be kept in the article. Thanks If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 06:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

When to create yearly team pages?

While going through some of the yearly team pages, I noticed the 2007 Oregon State Beavers football team article has already been created when there is still over a month left in this football season. I worry that if we start creating these articles too early, we may have more people questioning the need for these articles than we already do. Even the 2006 Texas Longhorn football team article was questioned for being created in early June 2006 and they were defending national champs. Personally, I think at the very earliest, the creation of these articles should wait until at least National Signing Day when a mostly full roster for that year's team has been determined.--NMajdan•talk 17:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 19:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I see no reason to have most team pages, unless the team is stellar, was ranked in the top twenty-five for more than a few weeks, or has another reason to be there (see the 2006 Miami RedHawks team). Obviously, the Miami team I cited is none of these, and doesn't even have a winning record, yet already has an article. Change is needed... bad. --Nomader^Talk 21:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Like I mentioned above, this WikiProject needs to have a manual of style to have a clear-cut set of guidelines for notability in relation to teams, bowls, players, etc. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 01:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we should say it is discouraged to create the next season prior to the spring practice game, or at least national signing day. But, since the 2007 Oregon page is already created, then we should allow it. It contains stuff that we would have to re-create anyways... it's just that we wouldn't want it already. But, per discussion before, any DI-A team season page is acceptable, as long as it's well sourced and written, regardless of how they perform. --MECU≈talk 01:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree it's a bit early to be making the 2007 season articles. But, since it's already made, along with 2007 Washington State Cougars football team (which was made back in October) no point to try and get them deleted since the information is accurate and will just end up being recreated in a few months. We should, however, discourage making these until at least national signing day as said above, or there won't be much to say other than the game schedule. VegaDark 01:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I support the creation of any well written team article as soon as the old season has ended.

Immediately after the season, there is already information to report, such as the upcoming schedule. Some things can already be written ahead of time, such as how many times the two teams have faced, and what the series record is. Recruiting information follows soon after that. Sometimes there are coaching changes to report, or new contract extensions to keep coaches from leaving, or stadium expansions, or new video systems installed, etc. etc.

I feel we have been over this ground already and decided that well-written articles should stay. I see no reason to revist that decision so soon.

Readers will be interested in information about next year as soon as this year is over, maybe sooner. For that reason, informative articles about next year should be allowed to stay even if they are created this year. I think it would be wrong to say that Wikipedia should wait until later to be a resource for this informaiton. Johntex\^talk 02:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

In the grand scheme of things, considering that Category:Future sporting events has some way out there events like the 2032 Summer Olympics and 2012 NCAA Men's Division I Ice Hockey Tournament, ok ... but I really think we should worry more about some of the important 2006 teams that don't have pages ... like Wake Forest, for example. BigDT 04:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

A bot we need - football links instead of university links

I'm trying to start using the pages of the form Name Nickname football. But because they're fairly new, most links for all kinds of stuff -- college teams' opponents, NFL players' alma maters, etc. -- have links to the school instead of the football program. I change these manually here and there, but I think it would be good to have a bot to do this systematically. If I get a chance I might write something but if someone else wants to do it, more power to them. - PhilipR 15:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

How will you differentiate between the two? For instance, if I said "NFL Pro John Doe graduated from the University of XYZ," I believe it should go to the school's wiki article. If I said "NFL Pro John Doe played for the University of XYZ," then it should go to the football page. But a bot wouldn't be able to make that decision. Also, what if there is no 'Name Nickname football' article? By guidelines set by the CFB WikiProject, you first try to link to the year-team page, if available and applicable (2006 Oklahoma Sooners football team), then the 'Name Nickname football' article (Oklahoma Sooners football), then school athletics article (Oklahoma Sooners), then school article (University of Oklahoma). --NMajdan•talk 17:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Before this would work we would need to make an article about the football teams for each school. There are many schools that still don't even have articles about their athletics, let alone their football team. But I agree that it would be nice, in the long run, to link to either the football season or the football team articles in many cases. VegaDark 18:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

See above section "Bowl Games" for more opinions on this subject (my opinion is listed there also). If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 00:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Team season article format changes

There is a straw poll being conducted here to come to a consensus on what the format of the season schedule chart should look like, please add your input. VegaDark 18:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Tennessee Volunteer Football

An unregister user keeps changing Tennessee's national championships to 6, which is in correct. Is there anything that can be done about this? Dlong 20:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll block unregistered users from editting it temporarily. Hopefully they will quickly lose interest. Johntex\^talk 21:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Haha, just gotta be aware and keep track of the article's history. College football articles (especially schools) are prime targets for vandalism.--NMajdan•talk 22:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not clear-cut vandalism, as the user is claiming that some extremely minor polls, which voted Tennessee #1 in these years, count as national championships. See http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/ia_football_past_champs.html. However, the additions are pretty stupid; anyone want to claim Florida State won the national championship in 1994? (not PSU or Nebraska). So, if I could do a favor and ask some of you guys to watchlist it, as the guy will likely return after the sprotect is expired. -Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 16:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree it is not clear-cut vandalism. So I did not block the user or warn the user about vandalism. My intention would be to leave the sprotect in place for about a week. In that amount of time, the editor will hopefully either (a) lose interest completely (b) realize they have to discuss and gain conensus instead of just reverting (c) at least register a user account which will make enforcement of WP:3RR somewhat easier. Johntex\^talk 16:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

This probably isn't or won't be the only instance this will occur. Schools probably claim a different number than the NCAA recognizes plenty of times. Perhaps the best way to deal with it is to include both ideas (aka, NPOV). Something like: "The NCAA officially recognizes Tennessee with 4 national championships in 19xx, 19xx, 19xx and 19xx. However, Tennessee claims 6 with the additional years of 19xx and 19xx. In 19xx, the yyyyyyy poll and in 19xx the zzzzzzz poll voted Tennessee the national champion. These polls are not commonly referred or claimed and the general consensus is that Tennessee has just 4 national championships." I know, literary works of art. (copied to Talk:Tennessee Volunteers football) --MECU≈talk 17:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I like this general idea, but I have two concerns: (1) I don't think the NCAA officially recognizes ANY football championships. They may list them, and refer to them, but I don't think they really recognize or sanction them. (2) for the purposes of team infoboxes and tables listing multiple teams, I think the WikiProject College Football should adopt and stick with a standard of which polls we will use. Beyond that, I think it is fine to include prose in each team article that explains discrepencies and counter-claims (with sources of course). (copied to Talk:Tennessee Volunteers football) Johntex\^talk 18:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

As much as I like the idea that the WP:CFB determine what is valid, it's not our job: that would be original. We can just reference the NCAA and then the University and put it all out there. For us to decide that we'll only go along with the NCAA I think is to ignore a side to the story. We could certainly say that in the infobox, only the generally recognized (aka common, NCAA published) NCs should be listed and others claimed by the school should be talked about in the article. But to say we will only put out what the NCAA publishes isn't being very NPOV, I think. (text not copied) --MECU≈talk 15:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that you may have misunderstood me and I think that we may actually be in agreement. I am saying that for the purposes of infoboxes and combined tables where lots of teams are listing, that we can stick with one or more of the most generally recognized polls. We have to make some sort of determination about what to include there. That is not NPOV, it is a reflection of the reality of the situation that some polls enjoy more wide-spread acceptance than others. In the text of an article on an individual team, we should be able to go into any amount of detail and discuss any polls that some author feels is relevant to discuss. Johntex\^talk 17:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It does sound like we agree. I'm on board with that then. --MECU≈talk 18:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Cool. I'm sure, if we have to, we can find sources that stipulate that some poll are more recognized than others. It shouldn't be too hard. -Patstuart^talk|edits 20:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Bowl Championship Series

I requested semi-protection of the Bowl Championship Series page and it was granted. I think it should stay until at least a week after the National Championship game on January 8, 2007. If the vandals find their way to other pages and it becomes too much, you can request semi-protection as well at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. There should be several IPs and have occurred frequently over the recent period. --MECU≈talk 02:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

More help! Player page being attacked

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Wilhoit they are going after this article. Some people still don't get it.CJC47 22:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Will you guys just take a look at this? Let me know if you disagree with my opinion. CJC47 16:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Coaches article

Just stumbled across an article that appears to have been created about a month ago: List of Current NCAA Division 1-A Coaches. Could use a little help filling in the gaps. It is also an orphaned article so could face deletion in the future.--NMajdan•talk 14:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I moved it to List of current NCAA Division I-A coaches. I think this is a good time to plug the Master Team Table. --MECU≈talk 15:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Moved to List of current NCAA Division I-A football coaches for accuracy before any more links get created. AUTiger ʃ ^talk/_work 00:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone think it might be a good idea to have a by year version of this article? Taking it a step further, we could even have something like List of NCAA Division I-A teams, 2006 could have team/coach/bowl/record/conference. That's probably something useful to have for each year, if for nothing else, than as a central point of reference for articles. BigDT 01:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I can pretty much buy that; sounds like a useful reference. But I think it's almost a subsection (except for the size issue) of 2006 NCAA Division I-A football season so perhaps it's 2006 NCAA Division I-A football season results? Section it by conference with each table containing team/coach/record/notes(includes championship games, bowl, anything notable to highlight.) AUTiger ʃ ^talk/_work 02:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Awards?

Should we do awards for the best 2006 team page? Best additions by posters and the like? CJC47 19:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm not big on that stuff. If you think someone has done a good job, give them a barnstar, but beyond that, I really think we've done a good job of keeping the team rivalries out of here and it would be nice to see it stay that way. BigDT 19:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Bowl game articles

Following the naming convention used for 2006 Rose Bowl I have created stubs for two of the upcoming bowl games: 2006 Alamo Bowl and 2007 Rose Bowl. I would love to see us have an informative article for every single bowl game, but that may not happen. Therefore, I am not going to systematically create a stub for every game. I created these two because I personally plan to contribute to them.

We already have a page for BCS National Championship Game 2006. (Note that the naming convention we used there is different from other bowl games, where we have previously put the year after the title.)

Our project is active enough and has enough members that I think we should certainly create 2007 Fiesta Bowl, 2007 Sugar Bowl, and 2007 Orange Bowl so I will go ahead and create stubs for these. Beyond that, I think the creation of bowl game articles should be dependent upon whether someone is willing to take the initiative and make a good article. Johntex\^talk 18:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Well you know z4ns4tsu and I will be on the Fiesta Bowl article.--NMajdan•talk 18:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I just created the above-mentioned BCS bowl articles. Someone please double-check me. In the copy-and-pasting, I don't want to have Louisville playing in more than one bowl! Also, I'm not sure which team is home and which is away for all these. So, I added an invisible comment that we need to check on that for each one. Johntex\^talk 19:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think we might want to create a template for head-to-head games. I notice that in addition to a couple of past bowl games, there are a few individual college football games in Category:notable college football games. A head-to-head template could be used for games like these, as well as bowl games. Some things it might include:

 |Name=(name or nickname if any - E.g. 2007 Rose Bowl or "The Play"
 |Date=
 |Visiting Team=
 |Visiting Record=
 |Visiting Team AP rank=
 |Visiting Team Coaches rank=
 |Visiting Team BCS rank=
 |Visiting Coach=
 |Home Team=
 |Home Record=
 |Home Team AP rank=
 |Home Team Coaches rank=
 |Home Team BCS rank=
 |Home Coach=
 |Type=(conference, non-conference, conference championship, bowl game, national championship...)
 |Stadium=
 |Result=

What do you think? Johntex\^talk 20:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I like it, but am not totally sure how it should look. I don't think it should look like the standard infoboxes, something more prominent centered at the top. I also think it should use

{{Linescore Amfootball|
|Home=
|R1= ||R2= ||R3= ||R4= ||RT=
|Road=
|H1= ||H2= ||H3= ||H4= ||HT=
}}

and maybe even some stat columns? See [1] for an example (oh to use logos! but no, won't use them here, sigh) Perhaps there should be a box-score summary template as well? --MECU≈talk 20:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

(Sigh) someday hopefully we will be cleared to use logos in the way that other major media sources use them. I do kind of like the idea of having the linescore immediately at the top. The box score might be better further down the page? Other info I've thought of to consider for the info box is Attendance and Weather. Johntex\^talk 21:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yah, I didn't mean to imply the box score at the top as well. Just thought there might be a need for it and standardizing it would be good for Wikipedia. Though it would have to involve start and end templates which I'm not yet good at, but all the more reason to go for it and learn. --MECU≈talk 22:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Please take a look and provide some feedback: Template:NCAAFootballSingleGameHeader. My thoughts are to eliminate the white background so it's more transparent looking. I'm not so sure about the blue outline (maybe a different color? maybe involve school colors somehow?) I use a 1600x1200 monitor, and I tried reducing the size and seeing how it looks, but I'd like some input from others that use smaller sizes. Is it too big? Should I take the "nowrap" off of the middle column? Are the fonts just too big? Should I go smaller overall? Any comments are appreciated. Thank you. --MECU≈talk 20:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I have moved the template so it can begin being used on pages: {{NCAAFootballSingleGameHeader}}. --MECU≈talk 18:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for comment: {{cfb}}

Soccer pages have a nifty little template Template:Nft that lets you easily specify the name of the country and produce a link to such-and-such national football team. It requires a redir for countries like the US and Australia that don't have that as the name of the article, and I think transcluding it is highly deprecated, but other than that it seems to work great. I created similar at Template:Cfb. Sadly everything will require a redir because there's no way to intuit the school nickname which is in each article's title. If there are any nuances of MediaWiki template markup that I'm missing, please advise me. Cheers, PhilipR 18:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I decided we were better off with {{cfb2}}, which lets you specify the team nickname to avoid redirs. And be sure to use them with subst: so that we don't create a mess of transclusion. - PhilipR 17:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Heisman Trophy

Can someone knowledgable about it give Heisman Trophy a once over? It has been vandalized quite a bit with partial reverts mixed in. I just want to make sure that I haven't missed anything and that there aren't any little pieces of mis-information vandalism. BigDT 21:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It looks good to me. I do take a slight issue with the third paragraph. I don't know if the trophy serves as a representation of a player's chances in the NFL. Look at some of the more recent winners: Jason White, Eric Crouch, Chris Weinke, Danny Weurffel. Granted there are some big names but the number of big NFL players and NFL busts are about equal. Just my opinion. But overall the article looks good.--NMajdan•talk 15:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

AFD Notices

From here on, if anyone comes across an AFD regarding a college football project related item, please list it here on the Project talk page so that the members of the project can assist in assessment of the article. Thank you. --MECU≈talk 03:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Wilhoit they are going after this article. Some people still don't get it.CJC47 22:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Will you guys just take a look at this? Let me know if you disagree with my opinion. CJC47 16:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kory Sheets of Kory Sheets. Borderline IMHO, but still keep as starting RB for Division I team. --MECU≈talk 15:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this one: John Fitzgerald (Offensive Guard, NCAA All-American). Is it worth keeping or should we AFD it? --MECU≈talk 16:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- Iffy ... leaning delete. If it is kept, it needs to be renamed and cleaned up. I take a dim view of autobiographical articles. Also, the article says that he was on the all-centry team for the entire state of Oklahoma (meaning, including OU and OSU). But the link says it was UCO's all-century team, not for the whole state. BigDT 17:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Graphic Lab

Just came across this new community on Wikipedia. May be worth checking out in case we need something in the future. Graphic Lab.--NMajdan•talk 14:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the addition. I had a photo that I have wanted fixed for quite a while. CJC47 23:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

How to handle a situation: LSU-related vandalism of USC's 2003-related pages

I need advice from the more experienced editors: I think everyone, outside of a few seemingly tireless, fringe (not normal) LSU fans, have moved past the 2003 split-title fiasco, but the edits keep on coming. For the past year they've been the occasional anon IPs, now I have two new users abusing this over and over for the past few days on University of Southern California Trojans football, 2003 NCAA Division I-A football season, NCAA Division I-A national football championship, and USC Trojans (thank heavens for the "user contribution" button!). What should I do? With these new accounts it's seems to have become a little different than when it was merely anons, but I feel a little uncomfortable handing out warnings since I'm self-professed USC alum and "Watchlist Guardian" for many of its articles. --Bobak 19:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Talking is usually the best thing. Try to get all involved people to talk in one location. Try to make a compromise that everyone (or most) can agree on. Is their viewpoint that LSU isn't a co-NC? I couldn't really tell what the problem was easily. Involving some of the dispute resolution processes may be needed if you can't talk it out. --MECU≈talk 19:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't call myself an "experienced" editor (I generally just fix typos, bad links, and revert vandalism), but I'm intending to treat this as vandalism and give the standard warnings. I've already notified one user about this. Dlong 20:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Notability for College Football People

Seeing some of the AFDs for college players, I'd like to get some discussion going about Notability for College football People, and eventually get this as a guideline or policy under the Notability. Thus, here are my thoughts:

Coaches
- Head coach
  - Of a Division I-A team for any length of time (1 game, 1 day) (must be officially recognized by school as head coach. For example, .
  - Of a lower division, if they win the national championship.
  - Any division, won a major national award (Coach of the Year), or in the College Football Hall of Fame
- Assistant coach
  - Of a Division I-A team, an offensive or defensive coordinator (or similar title that means they are a "head" assistant, not simply "running backs coach") for a minimum of 5 years at one school/team
  - Of any division, won a major national award (Top Assistant Coach)

Players
- Division I-A
  - Won a major national award (See {{College Football Awards}}), or in the College Football Hall of Fame
  - Holds a current NCAA record
  - A team leader (ie, quarterback, defensive leader) (aka, Standout player)
  - All-Americans by at least two sources
  - Finalists for major awards (Heisman watch list)
  - Considered a NFL draft prospect for the next draft cycle
- Lower divisions
  - National news item about player (non criminal)
- Recruits
  - Top 5 ranked Nationally overall (Not top 5 in position) by at least one source

Specifically not
- High school players
- No national sources discussing player

Players not likely to need an article (most linemen fit in this category, except award winners per above) because information is lacking to fully support more than the basic information that is possible to be obtains on season/team articles. Need more than date of birth, name, height, weight, high school and a basic stats ("In 2006 he had 7 sacks"). An article should contain enough content that including it into a team/season article (or anywhere else) would not be appropriate.

I by no means imply that my listing above is perfect. Your help is appreciated. --MECU≈talk 15:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Head coaches: Any coach, any team, any conference, in college sports. This includes NCAA Division I-A, I-AA, II, II, and NAIA. I feel being a college coach, regardless of the college, is worthy enough of an article.

Assistant coaches: You say minimum of 5 years. Does that mean they've served in the capacity of OC/DC for five years or that they've been a coach for five years and are now OC/DC? For instance, let me use Oklahoma since that is what I know best. Brent Venables has been DC for 8 years...worthy of an article. Kevin Wilson is in his first year as OC but has been an assistant coach for nearly 10 years...worthy? And of course, an assistant coach may have an article if they are significant for another reason. Once again using Oklahoma as an example. Josh Heupel was the qb for the national championship team and is now a quarterback coach but he has an article. I say he is notable. Same for Major Applewhite.

Players: I agree with all your criteria except for Recruits. I do not feel these high school players are deserving yet. Especially considering they will probably be redshirted their first year and won't even play in their first season thereby leaving an article without any updates for a year. Lets wait for these recruits to meet the other criteria first (All American, team leader, etc).--NMajdan•talk 15:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I think some recruits merit articles if there is a lot of hub-bub over their recruitment. Jimmy Clausen is one that I can think of. There have been articles in USA Today and Sports Illustrated CJC47 15:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I know of him. Still, I think an article should wait until, say, he is actually playing and making an impact. There's not point in creating an article for someone like Clausen if they sit on the bench the first year. If they come out their true freshman year and make a significant impact on the team (like Adrian Peterson did his true freshman year, then the article should be created. If he's a big-name recruit then he should make an impact immediately and then they'd be notable enough for an article.--NMajdan•talk 16:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Division II, II or NAIA head coaches are noteworthy. But if enough disagree with me I would be fine with it. I just don't see them as having enough possible information for an article and they are mostly local. Even I-AA is questionable, but I'd be more fine with including them.

5 years at one school, where they were also the OC/DC at one point. For your Kevin Wilson example: Yes, if he has been at Oklahoma for 5+ years (you said he was a asst coach for nearly 10 years, but if those weren't at OK, then no). I should perhaps have the disclaimer that if someone is currently an assist coach (for example), but they qualify for notability under being a former player (or former head coach, for example) then their current status does not affect it. They have achieved notability.

I think guys like Willie Martinez at Georgia could merit an article if they are in the news a lot and replacing a high profile guy like Brian VanGorder. Thoughts? CJC47 16:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Recruits, I originally had top 10 at position and then top 10 overall and now put top 5 overall. This is for the Jimmy Clausen types. These guys may redshirt, but typically they will be a top standout at their school eventually so having an article stagnant for a few years I'm fine with. Plus, I believe it is especially notable to be one of the top 5 ranked players out of all the thousands and thousands of high school football players each year. --MECU≈talk 16:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe lower division coach if they are fine. I don’t think there should be an article for everyone but if they won a national title, member of the Hall of Fame or President of the American Football Coaches Association they should have an article. They could also have an article if they do some exceptional like a very high number of victories. 09er 17:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Everyone here may want to read something I wrote about this a while ago, located here. That being said, I have to agree with much of the originally proposed list so far. For All-Americans I would change "by more than one source" to simply school-recognized All-Americans. That eliminates people who are only AA's on lower tiered lists. For "Holds a current NCAA record", what happens when someone breaks it? Do we put it to AfD since they no longer hold it? I don't think this should be an automatic criteria for inclusion because of that reason. I would guess most people who hold NCAA records were All-Americans, so they would fall into that inclusion criteria. For those who weren't AA's, perhaps allow articles on them on a case-by-case basis. I disagree with allowing articles on a "Team leader". Who is the team leader for Duke or Temple? Odds are they are not notable enough for an article. Perhaps allow team leader articles for teams that reached the top 25 during the season. Not sure about finalists for major awards. Once again, someone here will probably be an AA. If they weren't and didn't win the award, I'm not so sure they deserve an article. I would limit "considered a prospect for the next NFL draft" to a first round prospect. There are tons of players who get drafted and end up never playing in a game in the later rounds. I also think All-Conference should not be enough for an article to be made. VegaDark 19:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

My thoughts: if the person is the subject of multiple non-trivial works (per WP:BIO), I say make an article on them. If there is enough information out there for an article, I don't really think we need too much rule creep. That said, I don't really like having recruits at all unless they are notable purely on the basis of what they did in HS (ie, setting a national record, committing multiple felonies during a recruiting trip to UF, etc). Too many all-everything kids out of HS never play a down in college and four years later, they are at a local community college and nobody remembers who they were. I draw the line at being the subject of non-trivial published works. If all you have is his stat sheet and school bio, we probably don't need an article ... but if there's enough information out there with which to create an article, I say go for it. BigDT 19:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I've got to go with BigDT here. WP:BIO has pretty good standards already. Maybe, in stead of considering this a list of criteria for notability, consider it a list of people who may need articles created. If you know that XX player from YY school was a standout this year and is really being hyped in the draft or won a national award but doesn't have an article, they need one. Also, I'm not sure that having set rules for notability is really helpful. A lot of people that fit the literal definition of notability don't pass what I call the "gut test" for notability. That is, if you are thinking about creating an article for a person and you feel in your gut that they might not be notable enough, even if they fit the minimum requirements, maybe we don't really need that article and your time would be spent better somewhere else. That said, I can't think of a lot of lower-division coaches that need articles and I would probably have voted delete on an article for AD before his freshman season (had I been involved with WP then), even though he was the number one recruit nationally in 2004. z4ns4tsu\^talk 17:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree with DT and Z4 here. Although it changes all the time, the WP:BIO policy currently seems pretty good. I don't see any need to try to define more specific criteria at this time. I might feel differently later if WP:BIO changes. Currently, as I read it, it allows creation of articles on college players if there is enough stuff written about them to make an article, and precludes an article if there isn't enough stuff written about them. I don't think we need added rules about their stats or what conference they played in, or anything else. Johntex\^talk 18:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Criteria to have an article in WP:CFB

Was there ever any criteria set for someone/thing to be part of the WP:CFB? I find article where the guy is a NFL player, which 99% of the time means he was a CFB player. But should he be in the WP:CFB? Same for some coaches that were assistant coaches somewhere in CFB but are now NFL coaches. If someone is in the NFL project, should they probably not be in the CFB project? There will be exceptions, like if JoePa went to the NFL, but generally. Any advice please. --MECU≈talk 13:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

My view is almost the exact opposite. If they played football in college, and we have an article about them, then they should be part of WP:CFB. Part of their article needs to be about their college career and we should step up to trying to improve at least that section of those articles. The fact that they moved on to other things (be it the NFL, or a careeer in real estate) does not change the fact that college football was a part of their lives and they were a part of college football. Johntex\^talk 17:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Template:USFBullsCoach deletion?

Template:USFBullsCoach is up for deletion. I do see their point since there has only been one coach, but one of the stated goals of the project page was to have a coaches template for every team. Someone even made a chart. I believe there are three templates that only have one coach South Florida, FIU and FAU. FIU will be getting a new coach soon. Since I did a lot of work to get one for every 1A team (I made 40 to 50 of them), I would like to keep it so please go to the Deletion page and comment one way or another so we can get this resolved. Thank you 09er 13:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The link to the discussion is Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 December 15. Johntex\^talk 16:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

College football article being considered for deletion

Georgia Bulldogs football under E. E. Jones is an article that I created in accordance with the discussion at above. It seems to me that presentations of the historical records of teams is important in light of the state goal: To make Wikipedia one of the premier online resources on college football. I have followed the format of combining all seasons under a coach into one article - unfortunately, this particular coach only coached one season. In any event, please comment one way or the other at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Georgia Bulldogs football under E. E. Jones so that this can be resolved.--Tlmclain | Talk 04:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Notability for College Football People

Seeing some of the AFDs for college players, I'd like to get some discussion going about Notability for College football People, and eventually get this as a guideline or policy under the Notability. Thus, here are my thoughts:

Coaches
- Head coach
  - Of a Division I-A team for any length of time (1 game, 1 day) (must be officially recognized by school as head coach. For example, .
  - Of a lower division, if they win the national championship.
  - Any division, won a major national award (Coach of the Year), or in the College Football Hall of Fame
- Assistant coach
  - Of a Division I-A team, an offensive or defensive coordinator (or similar title that means they are a "head" assistant, not simply "running backs coach") for a minimum of 5 years at one school/team
  - Of any division, won a major national award (Top Assistant Coach)

Players
- Division I-A
  - Won a major national award (See {{College Football Awards}}), or in the College Football Hall of Fame
  - Holds a current NCAA record
  - A team leader (ie, quarterback, defensive leader) (aka, Standout player)
  - All-Americans by at least two sources
  - Finalists for major awards (Heisman watch list)
  - Considered a NFL draft prospect for the next draft cycle
- Lower divisions
  - National news item about player (non criminal)
- Recruits
  - Top 5 ranked Nationally overall (Not top 5 in position) by at least one source

Specifically not
- High school players
- No national sources discussing player