Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Drag Race/Archive 4

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 → Archive 10

Related discussion over at Manual of style

See Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Pronouns_for_males_performing_as_females_(aka_drag_queens) ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:37, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Tina Burner

I've started a stub for Tina Burner, who has appeared on more than one television series. Improvements welcome! ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Collaboration of the Month: Rock M. Sakura

I've selected Rock M. Sakura as the Collaboration of the Month. Please help improve this article and see the ongoing discussion on the talk page regarding page title. Happy editing! ---Another Believer (Talk) 01:57, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

"I'm Rock M. Sakura, and am I truly Japanese? Who knows. Is it cultural appropriation? We'll find out. Stay tuned." – Rock M. Sakura

Trinity Taylor

Edits by Trinity? ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:20, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Considering Trinity’s Twitter bio says "THEY... She or He is also ok" (similar statement in IG bio), plus they’ve rebranded to Trinity the Tuck (making TrinityTTaylor an interesting choice for a username if it was made recently) makes me personally doubtful. But perhaps we should consider a rewrite with they/them pronouns. Umimmak (talk) 02:44, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Account has been blocked. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:47, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Tamisha Iman

Tamisha Iman is coming for you! ----Another Believer (Talk) 01:17, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Rosé

New page for Rosé (drag queen). Improvements welcome! ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:22, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

"UK Hun?" but with Frock Destroyers

Love the crossover between UK seasons!

https://open.spotify.com/track/6b2ikWQE43jpC27oour5ud?si=y2r7jz9iSF-7nDrGTdpoog

---Another Believer (Talk) 17:22, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Denali

Please see ongoing discussions at Talk:Denali (drag queen). Project member feedback would be helpful. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

¡ Now "si si" that walk !

FYI: Drag Race España! ---Another Believer (Talk) 00:45, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Merle Ginsberg

Is anyone else surprised that there isn't a wikipedia page for Merle Ginsberg? I'm pretty sure she is Notable...Naraht (talk) 13:46, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

@Naraht: Yes, this has crossed my mind from time to time. I'm not interested enough to create the article myself, but I imagine she may meet GNG. Is she known for anything other than Drag Race? Armadillopteryx 23:13, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
I had wondered why Ginsberg doesn't have an article before myself. Did you know she was a co-author of Paris Hilton's Confessions of an Heiress and Your Heiress Diary? --Kbabej (talk) 23:52, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
I'm always willing to start a new stub...! Merle Ginsberg. Happy editing! ---Another Believer (Talk) 00:07, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Gottmik

Hoping some project members can make sure Gottmik looks good, especially w/r/t Gottmik vs. Gottlieb and pronouns. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:12, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Jade Jolie AfD nomination

Resolved

The Jade Jolie WP article is currently up for AfD here. Discussion and improvements welcome. —Kbabej (talk) 04:27, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Kept. ---Another Believer (Talk) 11:29, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Aiden Zhane AfD nomination

Resolved

The page Aiden Zhane has been nominated for deletion. Contributions welcome. --Underpaid Intern (talk) 15:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Update: Kept. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:45, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Joslyn Fox AfD nomination

Resolved

The page Joslyn Fox has been nominated for deletion. Contributions welcome. --Underpaid Intern (talk) 16:09, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Update: Kept. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:45, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

LaLa Ri's page

Resolved

Hello everyone. I am a not registered user and I believe that the page LaLa Ri lacks notability. The article is only about LaLa's performance on the show, with very little extra information (the only non-Drag Race info are the place she lives). As I am not registered, I am struggling to nominate the article for deletion, also because the creator of the page removed quickly the AfD template without letting anyone else consider it. Wikipedia is not Drag Race Wiki and LaLa Ri's is essentially only about her performance on the show, I believe it should be deleted (or it should redirect to RPDR Season 13). --78.148.25.46 (talk) 08:17, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

You aren't correctly correctly creating an AFD situation. The simple addition of that template does not create the page for discussion or any of the other behind the scenes pieces that need to be created from a technical standpoint. I'd suggest opening discussion on the talk page for LaLa Ri.Naraht (talk) 12:38, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
I don't think AfD is necessary. We can just discuss here whether or not LaLa Ri meets eligibility criteria. The redirect will always serve a purpose. Project members here are likely to be most familiar with her work. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:28, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Discussion participation welcome. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Updated. Redirected. ---Another Believer (Talk) 13:37, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Nicky Doll AfD nomination

Resolved

The page Nicky Doll has been nominated for deletion. Contributions welcome. --Underpaid Intern (talk) 16:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Underpaid Intern, Can you please slow down with your nominations? We now have to drop what we're doing to assess each of these topics and possibly expand entries in order to demonstrate eligibility. You're not wrong for nominating, but doing this many at once is difficult for the rest of us. An alternative to jumping to AfD is expressing your concerns on article Talk pages, or here on the WikiProject page. I want to reiterate, this is a request but not a requirement. Thanks, ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:31, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi Another Believer. I am sorry my nominations are causing you stress. Editing Wikipedia, however, is a voluntary action - you don't have to to drop other things you're doing in order to assess the nominations. I believe I am following the right procedures and I don't see any policy on how many articles one can nominate for deletion (if there is, please point me to it). Many articles about RuPaul's Drag Race contestants fails WP:GNG, only having basic information about the person (name, age, hometown), alongside content only relevant to the show or non-relevant content. This is especially true for articles such as LaLa Ri, Joslyn Fox and Aiden Zhane (among others). The article about Jade Jolie has some sources about the 2019 VMA incident, but, in my opinion, it still fails WP:NTEMP, along with WP:GNG (of course, this is my interpretation, but AfD discussions exist for this purpose). As I said, there are other contestants' page which I believe are not notable enough for Wikipedia; I don't see any policy against nominating each one of them singularly (again - if there is, please point me to it). However, before this we can start a discussion on this project's talk page. --Underpaid Intern (talk) 18:09, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Underpaid Intern, I understand. I've acknowledged above my request is only a request and not a requirement. But trying to keep up with all the nominations is exhausting and I don't think there's a rush to nominate all questionable articles at once. All I can do is ask you to slow down, but of course you can just ignore me and keep bulldozing your way through the project... ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Another Believer, I am not responsible for your "exhaustion" - I am not vandalising the project, I am not breaking any policy (that I'm aware of), I am not attacking you or anyone else. My AfD nominations are all valid, according to the procedure. At the end of my previous comment, I specified that I am open to "start a discussion on this project's talk page" about such articles - so I was complying to your request. However, I find your use of the word "bulldozing" an unnecessary comment about my approach on editing Wikipedia (remember WP:GOODFAITH) - especially after I had already specified that we can have a discussion about this. --Underpaid Intern (talk) 18:29, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Underpaid Intern, Ok whatever. Thought I'd ask, and you're not interested, and life goes on. Take care, ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Another Believer, I don't understand if you are trolling or not. I have stated that we can start a discussion here, before me submitting any more AfD (or didn't I say that clearly enough?). Furthermore, I have asked you to point to guidelines that demonstrate me what I am doing wrongly, but you have not done so. I am genuinely confused. --Underpaid Intern (talk) 18:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Underpaid Intern, I can assure you, I'm not trolling. I've been a daily editor for 13 years. I've said multiple times above, you're not doing anything wrong, but that doesn't mean you can't respect a genuine request to slow down a bit. Not to mention, so far your nominations are not getting delete votes, which further proves my point maybe you should slow down a bit and give more thought to what you're hoping to accomplish here. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:54, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Another Believer, please re-read everything I have written in my comments here. I have stated (from my very first reply to you) that "we can start a discussion on this project's talk page" (with "discussion" meaning a discussion about why I think some articles should be nominated for deletion). I repeat, I am genuinely confused as to why you keep on repeating that I am not listening or respecting your request - since I said that we can talk about it. You didn't use your self-claimed "experience" of 13 years to point me, a newly registered user, to a more appropriate approach. Instead, your behaviour has been very confrontational and negative towards me (from using biased words, to remarks and comments that are not necessary - such as mentions in the AfD discussions or, now, your "not to mention [...] your nominations are not getting delete votes", which I perceive as you targeting me). I have asked, several times, to point out what I have been doing wrong - which you have not done. Instead you ignored my willingness to discuss here about this situation, using a passive-aggressive remark ("Ok whatever. Thought I'd ask, and you're not interested, and life goes on. Take care"). --Underpaid Intern (talk) 19:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
I'll let others take over from here. Happy editing, ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

The request made for a Third Opinion about this dispute has been removed (i.e. declined). The dispute here is about a conduct issue, not a content issue, and 3O's are only available for content issues. Any content issues in regard to the nomination will be worked out at the AfD. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

TransporterMan, Thanks, sorry you got dragged into this. The editor who submitted the request has not contributed to Wikipedia since May 10 and so far all the pages they nominated for deletion have been kept. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:48, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Update: The article has been kept. Underpaid Intern, all of the articles you nominated for deletion were kept. Please be sure to do more research and sourcing assessment before jumping straight to AfD. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:09, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

User:Underpaid Intern hasn't been active since May 11th.Naraht (talk) 17:17, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Naraht, I noticed, but I wanted to say nonetheless. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:27, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive editor (Luvtanaxox)

It has come to my attention that there is a disruptive editor in our midst, their username is Luvtanaxox. They are making several vandalistic and unsourced edits to Drag Race contestant progress tables, so it may be worth keeping an eye on. Billwebster91 (talk) 03:42, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Did you try leaving a message on their talk page? If they're acting on good faith, it might be enough to just explain to them what the problem is. If not, they can be warned, and if that's not enough, they can be blocked. Armadillopteryx 06:12, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Minor Canada's Drag Race question

Don't worry, it's not a vandalism issue at the moment.

I noticed that as of today (Sunday Aug 23), nobody had yet filled out the episode summary for Ep8 "Welcome to the Family", so I mostly did that just now — but the one thing I can't remember off the top of my head is the exact name they gave to the runway challenge, and I'm away from my Firestick for a few days, so I can't just log into the Crave app right now to rewatch the episode. So is there anybody around who does have immediate access to one of the streaming platforms, who can check what the name of the runway theme was and fill it in? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 14:02, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Kandy Muse

Kandy Muse

New stub: Kandy Muse. Happy editing! ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:47, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Stan Kandy Muse <3 51.37.186.36 (talk) 12:05, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Please help keep an eye on this article, which is currently receiving a lot of vandalism. I've already requested temporary page protection. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:48, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

This explains the vandalism: https://twitter.com/TheKandyMuse/status/1370262935566704640 ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:47, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Splitting "The Switch"?

Does anyone have any problem with splitting The Switch Drag Race into a main page and two season pages?Naraht (talk) 15:57, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Naraht, Go for it! I'm in favor of splitting once a show has more than 1 season. ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:03, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Another Believer Just to let it simmer, I'll wait to see if either there are either A) 4 go aheads or B) No objections by Monday.Naraht (talk) 16:07, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Naraht, No one's objected, so feel free to complete this task when you're ready and we can update the RPDR navigation template, too. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 00:09, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

New stubs

UK:

US:

---Another Believer (Talk) 00:33, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

LaLa Ri ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:15, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Invite to archive old discussions

Hello, hello, hello! I invite project members to help with a small spring cleaning project. There are some older discussion above, including a few I'm not entirely sure are 'settled' because I don't follow the table discussions closely. If you see a discussion above which can be archived, please feel free to do so at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race/Archive 4. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:04, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Down Under stubs

---Another Believer (Talk) 15:39, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Art Simone

New stub: Art Simone ---Another Believer (Talk) 04:24, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Tongue popping

Yeah, I did: Tongue popping. ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:27, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

I’m not really sure this is notable yet... I’ve found one conference talk discussing the phenomenon [1], which couldn’t itself even be used as a source. And, imho, the article should really be focusing more on semiotics, phonetics, paralinguistic use, communities of practice, etc., not just passing mentions of people known to do so. Seems strange for this to be under the purview of this particular WikiProject. Umimmak (talk) 05:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Umimmak, I agree, I'd like to see the article expanded to discuss use outside RPDR, etc. I added this WikiProject's banner is because they are related, but I'd welcome other project banners as well. ---Another Believer (Talk) 05:09, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Sasha Velour female at Wikidata?

Sasha Velour

I just started a new discussion at Talk:Sasha Velour re: Sasha Velour being marked as female at Wikidata. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:02, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

By the way, if you're curious to follow, this sparked further discussion at WikiProject LGBT studies and even Wikidata:
Very interesting (and funny how a simple question can make things complicated). ---Another Believer (Talk) 03:24, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Rusicals

We have articles for the following Rusical episodes:

Season 6 had "Shade: The Rusical" (no Wikipedia article yet). Have there been others? Other notable episodes worth creating pages for? ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@Another Believer: There was also "PharmaRusical" on Season 10, which I believe is considered an official Rusical.--Scootersfood (talk) 20:56, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Scootersfood, Ah, right, thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:08, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
I have a question about this: Is there any particular reason Rusicals merit an individual article for the episodes? Because most episodes don't have their own articles, and in general most TV series only have individual articles for particularly notable episodes. Are Rusicals considered particularly notable? If so, why? Not A Superhero (talk) 15:16, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
Not A Superhero, I would not say Rusical episodes are more important than others, except many of them do have independently notable people impersonating independently notable people and have therefore received more coverage. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:24, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I've created a stub for "PharmaRusical" ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:05, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

There is also Glamazonian Airways, Divas: Lip Synch Live, and Bitch Perfect. Gleeanon409 (talk) 03:39, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Contestant appearances in other seasons

I think mentioning the appearances of the contestants in other seasons in the lede is a bit much. Looking at RuPaul's Drag Race (season 9) and RuPaul's Drag Race (season 10), almost half of the lede is focused on this. I think it should go into its own section at the end of the article. Thoughts? Nihlus 00:00, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I do not think that information belongs in the lead. I don't think it should even appear in the article; it should go in the participant's article. I've removed it before, and been reverted by a fervent editor who is adamant it should remain. It's tangential at best, IMO. --Kbabej (talk) 00:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
I think winning another season would be somewhat relevant, but I am not opposed to excluding the entire section either. Nihlus 00:13, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
I think it should all be moved to a section near the end.Naraht (talk) 00:23, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm trying to understand the viewpoint of why it should be included at all, though. Its already covered on the main RPDR article and the queen's article. It seems to be bloat and trivia to me. We could just as easily include them appearing on a Christmas Queens album or other RPDR media. --Kbabej (talk) 00:48, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
The articles for the Eurovision Song Contest have a section named "Returning artists", which depending on the amount can be presented as text (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovision_Song_Contest_2018#Returning_artists) or as a table (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovision_Song_Contest_2019#Returning_artists). Maybe here below the contestants table it would be possible to include it. That way, for example, you get rid of all the All Stars part and keep only artists that return for regular seasons.
And even if we include All Stars I would summarize it like this (taking season 7 as an example):
All Stars 2: Ginger Minj (8th) and Katya (Runner-up)
All Stars 3: Kennedy Davenport (Runner-up) and Trixie Mattel (Winner)
All Stars 4: Jasmine Masters (10th)
Other shows: Kandy Ho (The Switch Drag Race, 8th place), Rupaul's Drag Race HolySlay Spectacular (Jasmine Masters and Trixie Mattel)
That way you unclutter it. I agree that it wouldn't be on the lead, but in a secondary section. Not A Superhero (talk) 23:21, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
  • These sections are standard on all reality shows, usually at the bottom of the article. Gleeanon409 (talk) 02:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
  • So it seems as if we have consensus the information shouldn't be in the lead and should be moved to the end of the article. Is my assumption correct? If so, I don't mind moving that info to the bottom of the articles and linking to this discussion. --Kbabej (talk) 00:03, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
I think its safe to assume we have a consensus based on the above discussion. I am going to WP:BEBOLD and move that info to the bottom of the respective WP articles. Please know I am not trying to railroad the discussion; I simply think we have enough of a consensus. If anyone has any objections to me doing that, let me know! --Kbabej (talk) 17:33, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Proposed progress table for all RPDR shows

[Previous discussions have taken place on a few of the season articles, as well as above two sections (#Establishing a consistent criteria for SAFE, HIGH and LOW placements, and Semi-protection on all season articles in indefinitely).]
A note about this RFC has been left at all RPDR season and All Star talk pages

So, All Stars 5 is already starting, so I think it would be good to get a clear policy in place, so i think we should move forward with this conversation. So far, the current proposal worked by Asd17 is as follows:

Proposed

Should the following table, or something very similar, be adopted to quell the ongoing edit-warring over placement (High, low) in the tables? 23:57, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Contestant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Crystal Methyd SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE WIN BTM2
Gigi Goode TOP2 SAFE WIN SAFE WIN WIN SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE WIN
Jaida Essence Hall WIN SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE WIN WIN BTM2 SAFE
Sherry Pie TOP2 WIN SAFE WIN SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE
Jackie Cox SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE BTM2 BTM2 SAFE ELIM
Heidi N Closet SAFE SAFE SAFE BTM2 SAFE BTM2 WIN SAFE BTM2 ELIM
Widow Von'Du WIN SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE BTM2 ELIM
Jan SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE ELIM
Brita SAFE SAFE BTM2 SAFE BTM2 ELIM
Aiden Zhane SAFE SAFE SAFE SAFE ELIM
Nicky Doll SAFE BTM2 SAFE ELIM
Rock M. Sakura SAFE SAFE ELIM
Dahlia Sin SAFE ELIM
  The contestant won the challenge
  The contestant was one of the Top 2 in the first episode and won the lipsync for your life
  The contestant was one of the Top 2 in the first episode but lost the lipsync for your life
  The contestant was safe without receiving critiques.
  The contestant was safe after receiving critiques.
  The contestant was in the bottom two.
  The contestant was eliminated.
  The contestant was disqualified from the competition after production was completed.

I think overall it's a solid proposal, which may merit some comments and observations to make sure it works well in most or all episodes and seasons. There was a proposal to replace yellow with a lighter shade of blue, and we might want to check how it would fit All Stars both in the past rules (seasons 2, 3 and 4) and the current rules (Season 5). Any other question we might want to check? In case there is a consensus here, is there any special procedure to turn this into a style guideline? Simply put, what follows? Not A Superhero (talk) 05:08, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Discussion about format of the RFC
I think this section should be a sub-section of the current discussion to keep it all in one place. I suggest opening up an WP:RFC to gain outside input. Woody (talk) 09:29, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
My bad, I had read there a suggestion to put it as another section to increase its visibility. Should I move it there and put a note to continue the discussion over there? Not A Superhero (talk) 15:07, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
No worries at all. I think it would work better if this proposal was a new section (ie level 3 header using ===) but kept with the rest of the discussion and title it along the lines of "Request for Comment on the season progress table" and then follow the RFC listing instructions. Woody (talk) 16:08, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
@Not A Superhero:, I disagree. The above section is already too long and this one promises to get quite long as well.
I agree that it should be an WP:RFC. Just convert this section into an RfC, I’ll help if you wish. Gleeanon409 (talk) 20:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
No point arguing over semantics (and how to present the discussion rather than actually getting on with it) but per the talk page guidelines you really should keep the discussion in one place. This is a suggestion that has evolved from the previous discussion. You need the context of the discussion to reference during the RFC and for posterity going forward. Length has nothing to do with it as long as it is being constructive and not going over the old arguments. Woody (talk) 21:28, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Ok, started the RfC, feel free to change anything. Gleeanon409 (talk) 00:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Support as is, or very similar. We need to end the edit-warring. Gleeanon409 (talk) 00:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Support this table at its core summarizes the contestant's progress in a way that aligns with Wikipedia's policies and eliminates any potential of violating WP:OR and WP:NPOV. This can also be admended easily on a per season basis (with consensus) when a season-specific twist is introduced that would require a new color/legend key. This basic form can also be easily adapted for the spin-off RuPaul's Drag Race All Stars which has followed a sightly different format. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat? 06:00, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Support While I would like it if there was a way to keep the high and low placements, I've come to the conclusion that it's not possible in a way that complies with Wikipedia's standards, and those placements cause way too much conflict. Not A Superhero (talk) 16:14, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Support While I still feel a discussion of color usage needs to happen, that can come another day. The general crux of "no more high and low, just note if they received critiques" is that best way forward. We can come back to the color discussion once this general concept is agreed to.Found5dollar (talk) 17:51, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Support per above, also agree with Found5dollar that the colors are a bit garish. ~ HAL333 15:43, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

This just leads to more issues; it groups the best and the worst together rather than showing the difference. One may see the chart, and while they see the slight shading of SAFE means they were the best or the worst, it doesn't truly represent what occurred; they have no way of knowing if one did poor or one did better. I believe there have been previous attempts to remove the HIGH/LOW colors from the chart before (back when Season 7 was airing), and that idea was shot down shortly after. I realize the semantics and technicalities rule in favor of this, but it still causes more confusion and misrepresentation than actual helpfulness and accuracy. Billwebster91 (talk) 04:10, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

So I take you oppose? I agree that it's not going to solve all of the issues, but at least it's trading an issue we have no way to support for an issue we can support with objective data. What solution would you propose to represent what ocurred in a way we can actually support with data? Not A Superhero (talk) 16:32, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
I went to the archives just to check the relevant discussions. Here's the one about Season 7. I would say most of the arguments there have already been taken in account in our discussion. Also, it seems that the original high/low classification was done mostly through the work of a single person that established notes for placements in each episode and season. I would say this quite likely falls under original research. Not A Superhero (talk) 19:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
So first, I just want to say that I actually wasn’t the one to come up with the table, I just physically put it together for everyone to see what another user’s proposed changes were on. I just want credit given to where it is due to the proper user. Also, High/Low has actually been around since the beginning, back when Season 1 was airing in 2009. The notes on the pages from that user were to help previous discussions concerning the system. They didn’t create it solely. As a viewer of the show as well, I have always turned to Wikipedia to see who placed where if I am unable to view an episode and it has been very helpful to do that. So I am not personally for the removal of high/low, and I wish it would be easier to sort out (being that the edit warring has only broken out within the past year), but I do understand the technical rules. I just wish there was an easier way to make everyone happy on this topic. Asd17 (talk) 19:56, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

So, where do we go from here? Is there any procedure to move the discussion forward? Not A Superhero (talk) 00:50, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

RFC goes to 6 July 2020, someone will rule if a decision has been made, then changes can ensue. Gleeanon409 (talk) 03:19, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Web accessibility and adhering to the manual of style

RESOLVED
Motion Supported. All tables across the project will be made accessible.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've tried to introduce some changes to the RuPaul's Drag Race All Stars (season 5) article per the Manuel of Style on Accessibility and several editors have reverted them or just ignored the changes. Being accessible is of huge importance because legislation around the world is changing. In the UK, in September 2020, we have web accessibility compliance legislation coming into force which will impact on this. Being accessible is a really small and minor set of changes that could be made across the project to improve readability for those who have a disability or who are hard of sight. The changes are small and do not effect functionality for the majority of users.

  • WP:HEADERS requires all tables to have a caption
  • MOS:TABLE and MOS:DTAB clearly explain how !scope="row" and !scope="col" are mandatory and standard practise for achieving accessibility
  • MOS:SMALLTEXT clearly states "Reduced or enlarged font sizes should be used sparingly". There is no negative impact on the tables by not removing them.

I've done some examples below to show how web accessibility could be achieved, using All Stars 5 as an example.

Current practise - not web accessible

Contestants Age Hometown Original season(s) Original placement(s) Outcome
Alexis Mateo 39 Las Vegas, Nevada Season 3 3rd Place TBA
All Stars 1 5th/6th Place
Blair St. Clair 24 Washington, D.C. Season 10 9th Place TBA
India Ferrah 33 Las Vegas, Nevada Season 3 6th Place TBA
Jujubee 34 Boston, Massachusetts Season 2 3rd Place TBA
All Stars 1 3rd/4th Place
Miz Cracker 35 New York City, New York Season 10 5th Place TBA
Shea Couleé 30 Chicago, Illinois Season 9 3rd/4th Place TBA
Mayhem Miller 37 Riverside, California Season 10 10th Place 7th Place
Mariah Paris Balenciaga 37 Los Angeles, California Season 3 9th Place 8th Place
Ongina 37 Los Angeles, California Season 1 5th Place 9th Place
Derrick Barry 35 Las Vegas, Nevada Season 8 5th Place 10th Place


Web Accessible example

Contestants of All Stars 5 and their backgrounds
Contestant Age Hometown Original season(s) Original placement(s) Outcome
Alexis Mateo 39 Las Vegas, Nevada Season 3 3rd Place TBA
All Stars 1 5th/6th Place
Blair St. Clair 24 Washington, D.C. Season 10 9th Place TBA
India Ferrah 33 Las Vegas, Nevada Season 3 6th Place TBA
Jujubee 34 Boston, Massachusetts Season 2 3rd TBA
All Stars 1 3rd/4th Place
Miz Cracker 35 New York City, New York Season 10 5th Place TBA
Shea Couleé 30 Chicago, Illinois Season 9 3rd/4th Place TBA
Mayhem Miller 37 Riverside, California Season 10 10th Place 7th Place
Mariah Paris Balenciaga 37 Los Angeles, California Season 3 9th Place 8th Place
Ongina 37 Los Angeles, California Season 1 5th Place 9th Place
Derrick Barry 35 Las Vegas, Nevada Season 8 5th Place 10th Place

I would like to see us adopt these standards to be more web accessible as these changes generally benefit everyone but particularly those who might be hard of sight. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 12:15, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Dominikcapuan would you like to comment since you've done a fair bit of reverting on this? @Koavf, Graham87, RexxS, and Another Believer: do you guys have anything to add as either contributors to this project or contributors to the MOS guidelines and adoption? ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 13:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support changes. I suggest converting the oldest charts over and work up to the current season but I applaud anyone doing this technical work. Gleeanon409 (talk) 12:37, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Support changes. 100% Not A Superhero (talk) 23:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Support I've tried changing text to full size, and have been reverted, being told 'it's always been this way'. Would be glad to see consensus to change them all to meet accessibility guidelines. BOVINEBOY2008 12:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support as a screen reader user myself. I can't think of anything else to add at the moment. Graham87 14:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment: These are the MoS guidelines that should be respected:
    • All Data tables should have captions, and they should have column and row headers marked up as table headers and their scope specified - MOS:DTT;
    • Text should not use bold to create pseudo-headers instead of real headers - MOS:BOLD;
    • No text should fall below 85% of the page's normal font size - MOS:FONTSIZE;
    • Text colour and background colour should be chosen to be readable at WCAG 2.0 AAA contrast levels, and no information should be conveyed by colour alone - MOS:COLOUR. --RexxS (talk) 14:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Strong support Obviously. Dominikcapuan, why are you forcing us to go thru this conversation? Have you read MOS:SMALL, MOS:TABLECAPTION, and MOS:COLOR? Why are we arguing about basic semantics and accessibility? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:58, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
  • There seems to be support here. Go for it! ---Another Believer (Talk) 01:57, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Another thread about tables

I frequently answer requests at WP:RFPP and have noticed the project has had issues with people modifying tables and ensuring MOS compliance. I wanted to figure out how we could protect the templates without having to protect the whole page all the time, and so I've been working on {{Drag Race progress table}} and {{Drag Race contestant table}}. They're not ready for prime time yet, but since you all know more about what it needs, I thought it's a good time to get more feedback. One additional advantage I see is that once you all come up with a color scheme you like, we can add it to the template so that (1) you don't need to change it across dozens of pages and (2) it's harder for people to mess with the colors without consensus. Take a look and let me know what features you would find useful. — Wug·a·po·des​ 08:10, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time out to fix this. I'd like to see some of the changes in my example above too e.g. removing abbreviations and avoiding two shades of red next to each other per WP:COLOUR but this would be a great solution to the problem. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 14:32, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
@Lil-unique1: No problem, it's worthwhile to come up with a long term solution. I've updated the progress table so that it uses the color palette at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Colors and removed the connection between label text and color. Editors can use any of the colors in that palette and use any label they like, this way it gives you all more freedom to change the labels and colors as needed. I've updated the documentation to give an example and list all the colors available. — Wug·a·po·des​ 21:20, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

For anyone that deserves it...

...I made a RuBarnstar here for deserving editors. (it's a poor attempt at photoshop since I only have Paint, sorry Ru, but it's the thought that counts)

The RuPaul Barnstar
Put your message here. APK whisper in my ear 20:13, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


APK whisper in my ear 20:13, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Aww, this is really cute! I love it. Armadillopteryxtalk 20:50, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:21, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Templates for tables?

Just throwing it out there, but since the tables are what ends up getting changed/vandalized the most, I wonder if it might make sense to use separate templates, put the tables in those templates and then we can have higher protection levels for just the templates with the summary tables? As an example of what I mean, see how Critical mass#Critical mass of a bare sphere calls {{Critical mass}}. Just a thought, it might end up being more effort than it's worth but I thought it might be useful since these seem to get changed more than the rest of the articles as a whole. Umimmak (talk) 01:21, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I think someone is already working on that. It’s probably in an earlier thread. Gleeanon409 (talk) 01:34, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Check out #Another thread about tables above. Armadillopteryxtalk 01:37, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Drag tour articles

There's an article for Werq the World, but there have been many other tours as well, such as the Haters Road. Wondering if there should be some new articles created for some of the other RPDR-related tours, including some of the holiday-themed ones? ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:33, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm in favor of this so long as sufficient WP:RS exist to source them. Off the top of my head, I can think of:
Armadillopteryxtalk 02:40, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
There have also been several post-season tours (at least for the past few years), such as the 10's Across the Board Tour and the Season 11 Tour. Those are typically also produced by Voss Events, like Christmas Queens, but I'm not sure if those single-year tours are as notable as the annually recurring ones.
Speaking of which, the major production companies involved in RuGirl management and tours—Voss Events, Murray & Peter Present, Producer Entertainment Group, Klub Kids, and Holy T Europe—easily pass WP:GNG with all the secondary coverage out there. Armadillopteryxtalk 02:46, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
+ Drag Queens of Comedy? ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:54, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment. So many of these could be more effectively be done in a bundled list article about RPDR tours, with an explanation of what the criteria is for inclusion. Even the Werq tour can be summed up with a large paragraph or two. Gleeanon409 (talk) 17:19, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

I've created stubs for A Drag Queen Christmas and Haters Roast. ---Another Believer (Talk) 03:25, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Ditto Battle of the Seasons (tour). ---Another Believer (Talk) 05:16, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

I just created a sub-stub for Drive 'N Drag. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:12, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Should we have an RfC re: pronoun use in drag queen biographies?

The standard we seem to follow at this WikiProject is to use the subject's drag name/drag pronouns in the lead, Career section, and anywhere else that discusses things done in the capacity of the drag persona. Conversely, we seem to stick with out-of-drag names/pronouns in sections that discuss subjects' early and personal lives. Should we formalize this (or another) standard in an RfC? I've encountered probably half a dozen situations in the past year where having a formal consensus to point to would have been helpful. Here is one example.

Now that we've slowly been getting some of our RuGirl biographies to GA status, I think it's only a matter of time before a reviewer wants more than a verbal explanation of pronoun handling from the nominator. I think this kind of consensus would also be a useful reference point for other drag queen articles that do not fall within the scope of the Drag Race WikiProject. Thoughts? Armadillopteryx 14:19, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Armadillopteryx, I think this is a great idea, but I am also slightly hesitant to assume there's a one-size-fits-all solution re: pronouns. But, I guess simply explaining the difference b/w in- and out-of-drag is a start... ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:13, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
@Another Believer: I agree with you—there may indeed not be a one-size-fits-all solution. But that in itself would be good to have somewhere on record. Ideally we'd have a reasonably in-depth discussion with examples of how/where different approaches work best.
What do you think would be an appropriate venue for this sort of discussion? This WikiProject talk page? MOS/Biography? Armadillopteryx 17:47, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Armadillopteryx, I'd draft something here first for us to vet internally, then take to MOS/Biography once we feel comfortable. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:42, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

RfC draft

Below is a draft of the RfC text for this topic.

Wikipedia contains several hundred biographies of notable drag queens and kings (see Category:Drag queens and Category:Drag kings). These are individuals who are notable as a stage persona that most often has a different name and/or gender from the performer. Reliable sources typically report on these subjects using only the name and pronouns associated with the drag persona. Which of the following describes the most appropriate use of names and pronouns in drag performers' Wikipedia articles?

  • Option 1: The subject's drag name and drag pronouns should be used throughout the article, with the legal name only mentioned in the infobox, the lead, and either the Early life or Personal life section.
  • Option 2: The subject's drag name and drag pronouns should be used in sections related to the subject's notability and work as the drag persona (e.g. in the lead and in the Career section). The subject's legal name and out-of-drag pronouns should be used in other sections (e.g. Early life, Personal life).
  • Option 3: The subject's legal name and out-of-drag pronouns should be used throughout the article, with the drag name only mentioned as a stage name in the infobox, the lead and the Career section.

Further questions:

  1. Should one of the above options apply uniformly across drag queen articles, or are there conditions under which one option might be preferable to another? What might those conditions be?

What are other editors' thoughts on this wording? What changes and improvements should be made before opening the RfC? Armadillopteryx 23:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I would forgo giving options altogether and just state what seems to be the most appropriate approach allowing common sense wiggle room. “Generally the article should be written focused on the drag/stage/public persona with the performer’s preferred pronouns for that persona. Exceptions would often be in Early, and Personal life sections. Gleeanon409 (talk) 03:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
That would be my personal preference as well, though I am concerned that using such leading language in an RfC would draw objections about biased phrasing—especially, perhaps, from users who have little familiarity with drag or other LGBT-related subjects. I want to keep the wording as neutral as possible despite my preferred outcome. Armadillopteryx 18:23, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
We are the experts sharing our knowledge and experience, I think if you give any options you’ll likely get a convoluted outcome. Bias is acceptable if it’s based on sound premise but maybe giving options is fine. Gleeanon409 (talk) 19:11, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

User added a new column to all season progress tables

A user has just added a numerical placement column to the progress tables in all the regular season articles (e.g. like this, at season 8). Is this something we want? Armadillopteryx 00:24, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I like it. While the standard tables are ordered by placement, you need to read the whole table to figure that out since the placement information is on the right side. This adds an explicit placement which was previously missing and moves the important information to the front so that readers can quickly navigate it. — Wug·a·po·des​ 05:00, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion about drag queen names and pronouns at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style

Those who watch this page may be interested in the following discussion: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#WP:Surname and MOS:GENDERID with regard to drag queen articles. Armadillopteryx 06:25, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Translations?

Are there any multi-lingual editors who would be interested in translating this project's quality content into another language, or even promoting content to good status at other Wikipedias? ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:01, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Looks like User:Thijslandsmeer plans to translate an article into Dutch. Awesome, and welcome! ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:14, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Update! nl:Ho Ho Ho Nicely done ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:13, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm definitely up for this, though I don't have time to dive in immediately. I can translate things onto fi.wiki and pt.wiki. I'm more familiar with template differences and fair-use rationales on fi.wiki, but I'm sure I can figure it out on pt.wiki as well. Armadillopteryx 21:08, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
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