MediaWiki talk:Gadgets-definition/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Twinkle requiresES6?

I've been using Twinkle for some years now, I've even got a rollbacker permission in addition to it, and I've indeed actively fought vandals in my time.

But I'm using a rather old hardware due to my circumstances, and my browser is still Opera 12.18. Since this edit I'm no longer able to use Twinkle at all, and I don't know if I'll upgrade anytime soon. Is there really a good reason to put me overboard? Twinkle worked perfectly fine for me just before the abovementioned edit.

Ping to MusikAnimal. — Mike Novikoff 23:15, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

@AzaToth: any input? — xaosflux ^Talk 23:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree that we can't cater supporting ancient browsers; Hindering development for the purpose of supporting an 13 year old browser I don't see as reasonable. _→AzaToth 20:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but Opera 12.18 is a 2016 release, which doesn't make 13 years. — Mike Novikoff 17:00, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

My input unbidden is that the web marches on. Using an ancient browser is not feasible or safe for Javascript features, and there are plenty of evergreen browsers that don't have restrictions on hardware version. Besides which, if you're using a machine and are locked to Opera 12, then your machine probably isn't safe to use on the Internet anyway. The original release of that software version, with some security updates up to 2016, was in 2011.

I'd recommend switching browsers if you want to continue using Javascript features. Firefox 52 supports XP and Vista and as recently as Firefox 100, Windows 7 is supported. 52 almost fully supports ES6, ES6 was basically supported by 54, and 100 has the same support for ES6 as 54 (just missing tail-call optimization, which wouldn't impact the set of features that are checked for ES6 support). I imagine the support story and timeline is similar for Apple hardware.

I assume, without knowing, that there is intent to incorporate ES6 into Twinkle, which would make it faster and likely more maintainable as well. Izno (talk) 00:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

I see. I see that I'm not going to be understood. But still, let me tell you that back in time I've dreamed about an ideal machine based on Tualatin (and here it is: 1400/133/512), knowing that P4 architecture is a shit, even a Northwood and Prescott, not no mention Willamette. If I only knew that dumb programmers would switch to enable SSE2 everywhere in their compilers...

Still. Are we building an encyclopedia here or forcing people to upgrade? — Mike Novikoff 01:41, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

I see that I'm not going to be understood. No, that is totally untrue. "My hardware old, support me forever please" is what you said, and the response is and will ultimately be "no". Besides that, I also said "here's an alternative that may suit whatever ancient hardware you're running".

Another alternative would be to choose another operating system which would give you access to one of the newer browser versions which would give you access to ES6. You are clearly smart enough about such things to be able to provide yourself access to such an operating system.

I am not the maintainer of Twinkle, but I ultimately support their efforts to make their software both more modern and faster, at the loss of support for browsers it is safe for nobody to use. Including you. ES6 puts them on the path to provide those things. Izno (talk) 02:07, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Another alternative would be to choose another operating system – Of course I remember my favorite PLD, and maybe I'll even install it altogether at last. Quite a challenge: to install an OS without an installer, just by chroot. Perhaps I should. But then, you know, I'd be doing nothing but tuning it for at least a year, like I've been doing in 2000 and 2001, when I've covered my RH and MDK with PLD's updates. :-) Mike Novikoff 03:14, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I'm one of the Twinkle devs. We made the switch because not being able to use ES6+ language features is burdensome to programmers, and we assume that most of Twinkle's 40,000 users use a browser that is ES6+ compatible. Unfortunately you may be a very rare exception. Pinging another active dev @SD0001. Unfortunately I'm not in favor of switching back unless there are many people affected. However I will certainly keep an eye on the issue and try to gauge if there are others affected by this. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:26, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

I hear you. But, as the one who is not a stranger to programming since about 1989 (does anyone here know BK0010-01?), I'd advice you to remember an old maxim: "Ain't broke, don't fix it". — Mike Novikoff 17:00, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

As a grade C browser, MediaWiki's compatibility policy states you do not get [new] JavaScript features. Twinkle is not MediaWiki, but relies on MediaWiki's JavaScript API. It is only a matter of time before that becomes ES6-only too (phab:T178356) for the same reasons others have stated above (maintainability, chiefly). I strongly encourage you to explore others options, both to regain access to Twinkle, many other new features in MediaWiki you're likely missing out on, as well as the rest of the web. I'd like to echo what Izno said above as well; it's not really safe for you to be browsing the internet at all using a browser that old. That said I sympathize with your frustration, and hope you understand we aren't trying to shut users out, but to move toward the future and not linger in the past. — MusikAnimal ^talk 05:43, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

as well as the rest of the web. – Unfortunately. Even though a "bit rot" is a jocular myth, I feel it all the time. Yesterday I could have used my bank online, today I have to go across the street. That's what they call "progress".

But why my beloved WP should increase my lossage? Is it a bank, too?

And as for "safety", I still don't know what they all are talking about for 20 years or so. My software is always perfectly tuned (unless you are a perfectionist yourself, you'll not understand it), and I've never had any security issues, not even under Windows (which I have castrated enough with XPlite). Yet I'm very used to the situation that somebody on the Internet doesn't like my software, starting with MSIE3 in 1998 and the Linux version of NN4 in 2000. (Have you ever spent six hours compiling a tarball of Mozilla 0.6?) ;-) — Mike Novikoff 17:00, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

OK, I've disabled Twinkle in my prefs, I see "More" very close to "Search Wikipedia" again. Good night, sweet prince. Progress bloody progress. — Mike Novikoff 05:10, 7 December 2022 (UTC)