Talk:1848–1849 massacres in Transylvania

Questionable source

This source may be unreliable, for the following reasons:

• A massacre is a an action against a defenseless crowd. There is nothing said about the context in which "about 200 Hungarians were massacred in Gerendkeresztur (Grindeni) and some 90 beaten to death near Marosújvár".
• The name of the author Hilda von Klausenburg looks like a pseudonym (it means "Hilda from Cluj" in German)
• It seems to be a self-published source - WP:SPS
• The text could be POV. There are accusations that the work contains insults (Romanian: vexaţiuni): [1] (Iaaasi (talk) 07:13, 14 February 2011 (UTC))

I don't agree with your assessment. That source looks a LOT more reliable to me than the source that you inserted. Especially since the source is actually about the topic of this article (atrocities against Hungarians) while your source not only seems dubious, it is not even about the article topic at all so anything it mentions is in passing. In fact just by reading the text "Hungarians killed many(??) Romanians, including beggars and old people. 2" it could be the sentence that comes up when discussing unreliable sources. Hobartimus (talk) 09:55, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

The unreliability of the two sources (Megemlékeztek az Alsó-Fehér vármegyei magyarellenes vérengzésekről and Hilda von Klausenburg: Magyarellenes atrocitások Erdélyben és Romániában: 1784-1956 ) was also confirmed by 3 neutral users, so I eliminated them from the article (Iaaasi (talk) 12:23, 17 February 2011 (UTC))

Recent Edits

I think that it is generally a good idea to provide details (e.g., names, events), if we can, but these details should make sense. I have two questions about the recent additions:

• "[...] was executed at Almas, for opposing joining the Hungarian army." is a bit dubious since the revolutionary army mainly consisted of volunteers. Please, explain and provide a (translated) quote.
• "[...] were killed for opposing robberies committed by Hungarians". It sounds a bit strange, could you provide more details? Exactly what kind of robberies they were opposing for which they were executed?

Thanks, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 22:41, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Correction needed

It is a mistake here. Die Siebenbürger Bote has to be changed to Der Siebenbürger Bote. Der Siebenbürger Bote was the real name of the newspaper [2]. Der Bote means The Messenger and is a masculine noun (see http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bote)

Also Chisindia should be linked to Chisindia 79.117.188.107 (talk) 15:18, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I fixed. --Norden1990 (talk) 17:33, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Total losses

When quoting a non-English source (whether in the main text, in a footnote, or on the talk page), a translation into English should always accompany the quote.

User:Sylvain1975, please offer the quote+ translation from Egyed Ákos: Erdély 1848-1849. Pallas Akadémia Könyvkiadó, Csíkszereda 2010. p. 517 that you cited. 79.117.172.248 (talk) 08:29, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to ask other editors (I will nominate User:Fakirbakir and User:Borsoka) to check User:Sylvain1975's edit, he altered the article format with his latest edit. 86.127.31.188 (talk) 12:46, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I couldnt repair the alteration made in the table. I will give the English name of the book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvain1975 (talk • contribs) 17:20, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Sylvain1975 I've read somewhere that the number refers to Hungarian civliians and soldiers killed during the revolutioin. 86.127.19.15 (talk) 17:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Sylvain1975, is the source Egyed Ákos: Erdély 1848-1849 (Transylvania in 1848-1849). Pallas Akadémia Könyvkiadó, Csíkszereda 2010 available online? According to this text in the 7,500- 8,500 estimation there are also included victims of the Saxon militia. 86.127.29.13 (talk) 08:44, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is no online version of the book. I have buyed the book. In Egyed s book are very detaliated accounts and tables about the victims and the events. The numbers given by the Austrian authorities and Romanian participants. Even an account of Avram Iancu himself about the number of the killed Hungarians. Some informations about Egyed Ákos (1929-): he is one of the most important Transylvanian-Hungarian historians, foreign member of the Hungarian academy of Sciences and holder of many state prices (Romanian Academy Price, Cross of the Order of Hungarian Republic, III. Degree Order of the Science, etc). Too bad that his book about the Civil war in Transylvania is not translated to English. (Sylvian1975) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvain1975 (talk • contribs) 19:09, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Sylvain1975, if the source is not available online, I'd like to ask you to provide the relevant quotes from the book (in Hungarian language). Avpop (talk) 05:49, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Avpop, So, the quotes.

For the quote nr. 13: "Végeredményben úgy látjuk, hogy a háborúskodások során és a polgárháborúban Erdély polgári népességéből körülbelül 14 000-15 000 személy pusztulhatott el; nemzetiségük szerint: mintegy 7500-8500 magyar, 4400-6000 román, s körülbelül 500 lehetett a szász, zsidó, örmény lakosság vesztesége. [...] Valószínű, hogy a magyar áldozatok száma sem érte el a 10 000 főt, amit az egyik kortárs szemlélő állított, illetve akkor érte el ezt a számot, ha tekintetbe vesszük a megsebesültek, elhurcoltak, valamint az eltűnteket is" - p. 517 -; "A magyar polgári lakosság veszteségeiről nem rendelkezünk olyanszerű kiadvánnyal, mint a románokkal és szászokkal foglalkozó bécsi statisztika. De vannak részadatok, veszteségleírások, amelyek segítik a kutatást, és lehetővé teszik egy megközelítően reális értékítélet kialakítását. [...] Ehhez számítási alapot nyújt Szilágyi Farkas Alsó-Fehér vármegye 1848-49-ben című tárgyilagosságra törekvő munkája. [...] Mivel mi az Abrudbányán, Verespatakon és környékén elpusztított magyar lakosok számát 2000-2500 főre tettük, véleményünk szerint alsó-Fehér megyében az előbb említettnél több, mintegy 6000 magyar polgári lakos pusztult el a román felkelők fegyverei által. [...] A kutatás bizonyosan még új forrásokat és adatokat fog feltárni a magyarság veszteségeiről. Annyit a rendelkezésre álló adatok alapján mondhatunk, hogy több mint 7000 magyar lakos elpusztításáról számszerű adatokkal rendelkezünk, és sok helységgel kapcsolatban megbízható utalást ismerünk "többek" haláláról. Úgy véljük, hogy a történeti Erdélyben elpusztított magyar polgári lakosság számát mintegy 7500-8500 főre tehetjük." - p. 513-517 - For the quote nr. 14: "Belső-Szolnok és Doboka megyében Kádár József konkrét adatai szerint körülbelül 80-100 magyar polgári lakossal végeztek a felkelők, de nem tudható, hogy a nagyszámú összeszedett, megkínzott s Naszódra, Monorra és Hátszegre hurcolt magyar foglyok közül hányan vesztették életüket." - p. 516 -; "A helyi mozgalmak is mind sűrűbbek lettek, mindenki a várható nagy eseményekről beszélt, ezért a magyar földesurak, s nagyrészt a tisztviselők is menekülésbe kezdtek, de ez nem mentett meg mindenkit, mert akiket a felkelők elfoghattak, azokat megkínozva hurcolták Naszódra, Tekébe, Balászfalvára, majd mind többet Szászrégenbe." - p. 195 - About quote nr. 15: "Mivel a benyújtott adatokat Bécsben is kétségbe vonták, elrendelték, hogy hivatalos szervek írják össze az erdélyi románok veszteségeit. Erre 1850-ben került sor. Az összeírás eredményét eredetileg a bécsi titkos levéltárban helyezték el, s 1851 elején közölte az osztrák politikai "Erhebungs-Commision". [...] Valóban a császári hatalomnak semmi érdeke sem fűződött ahhoz, hogy kisebbítse a román és szász veszteségek számát, arányát, mivel a "a forradalmi hatóságok és képviselőik szörnyű kegyetlenségeit" akarja kimutatni. Eközben a román és szász felkelés magyar áldozatairól szót sem ejt!" - p. 507 -

Of course it is hard to write down all the pages, that refere to the losses of Hungarians. The book can be buyed in TRansylvanian towns. Also pictures, lithorgraphies about the tortures, massacres against Hungarians can be found and put on the wikipedia article: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tJjj_UYRWYA/TufTdKfKGeI/AAAAAAAABRg/mlFuAXf1uQo/s1600/Zalatna+5.JPG http://www.nimrod-mohacs.hu/sites/default/files/erdelyi%20fiuk.jpg https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5471/11225559223_5854742e7c_b.jpg (Sylvain1975) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sylvain1975 (talk • contribs) 06:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Quote 13 does not contain the word "by Romanians". So the text unarmed Hungarian men, women and children were massacred by Romanians is unsourced. Avpop (talk) 07:43, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

You are welcome. Civilians mean, men, women and children. And when it writes polgári lakósság "civilian population" it means men, women, children, because "population" includes all genders and ages. But if you want specific naming, I can give you as well from the book, showing the Romanians as those who done it. Who else? The Hungarians killed their kins? Please... For example Kisenyed (Sangatin massacre): "[...] a román tábor azonban békés elvonulást ígért a magyar családoknak. Amikor azonban az átadás megtörtént, a felkelők mészárolni kezdték a védtelen polgárokat, s rövid idő alatt válogatás nélkül 175 személyt - gyereket, nőt, öreget elpusztítottak." - p. 228 - About the massacres of Zlatna: "[...] majd adott jelre mészárolni kezdték a menekülő magyar polgári lakosokat. Biztos források szerint legalább 640-en vesztették életüket. Mindössze 140 embernek sikerült megmenekülnie, főként Ioan Urs méhesi ortodox papnak köszönhetően, aki tudatosan azt az álhírt költötte, hogy Gyulafehérvárról tiltó rendelkezés érkezett." - p. 232 - You cannot say that all 640 were men (its demographically impossible, because men are less then women and children in a community, and if we think that meny of them could be soldiers elswere, we can conclude, that that in the group at that point men were less more than the women and children) and the 140 who escaped were women and children, because it is clearly showed in the text, that they were not saved because of gender, but because the Romanian priest (God bless him) sayed a false news to save them. About the Nagyenyed (Aiud) massacre at 9 january 1849: "A Repede Nicolae felgyógyi görög katolikus pap [!] által vezetett csapat betört a minorita rend házába, s gyilkolni kezdte - minden válogatás nélkül -a több száz enyedit. [...] A menekültek az égő város lángjai közt több ezer lövéseket hallottak - hihetőleg védtelen nők, aggok, gyermekek gyilkoltattak le. [account of an eye witness, the functionary Németh László, in the "Honvéd" newspaper at 10 january 1849]" - p. 315 - (Sylvain1975)

"Who else? The Hungarians killed their kins?" It does not literally say that Romanians made all killings. We can consider for instance that some of them were killed by Saxons (they lived in Transylvania too, didn't they?) or, I don't know, Habsburg or Russian army who were also involved in the conflict. Avpop (talk) 13:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Order of massacres

Historical articles are usually in chronological order, which makes sense, because it sets up a logical flow of events. The first documented massacre was commited against the Romanians, in June 1848, the first one commited against the Hungarians was later on in October 1848. If there isn't any source saying otherwise, then the Romanian massacre was first, so that section should go first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.30.180.227 (talk) 20:13, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree with this. At the moment the article is confusing and I will swap the order of the two sections unless someone objects. It also gives no summary of exactly what was going on. Is this primarily Hungarians and Romanians massacring each other? LastDodo (talk) 12:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 26 March 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 17:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

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1848–49 massacres in Transylvania → 1848–1849 massacres in Transylvania – per MOS:DATE#Ranges. Super Ψ Dro 15:41, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support, per nominator.(KIENGIR (talk) 00:38, 28 March 2021 (UTC))

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.