Talk:2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine/Archive 8

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Preamble should mention people's displeasure of unpopular Maidan consequences.

Possible addition: "Unpopular language law project,[1] appointments of new governors[2] and rise of far right views[3] caused protest in Eastern Ukraine where people organised pro-Russian manifestations."

  1. ^ "Watch Your Tongue: Language Controversy One Of Fundamental Conflicts In Ukraine". International Business Times. 2014-03-03. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
  2. ^ Kramer, Andrew E. (2014-03-02). "Ukraine Turns to Its Oligarchs for Political Help". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2016-06-02.
  3. ^ Ishchenko, Volodymyr (2014-11-13). "Ukraine has ignored the far right for too long – it must wake up to the danger | Volodymyr Ishchenko". the Guardian. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
This is already being discussed at Talk:Ukraine. The citations failed verification: i.e. they do not directly support the material being presented.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:28, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

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Generally I think we can do better sourcing. There are all of maybe 5 English speaking outlets that are cited should be more reputable. Afterall, google translate exists. UnemployedJournalist (talk) 06:37, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Disinformation

This page is targeted with Russian disinformation. 96.250.56.147 (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Estonian support?

The info box says that the unrest ended in 2014 but the source for Estonian support is from 2016?Angele201002 (talk) 08:17, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

I've removed that. Not sure how that stuff got in here, but none of it was actually related to the unrest and was WP:UNDUE for the infobox anyway. Thank you for the notice. RGloucester — ☎ 14:47, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

shale gas protests in donbass in 2013-2014

Interesting that it isn't even mentioned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFd25YKnGqU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX-KExPSGn4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrnJn9LBpOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZGF41draOc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfL94Jpg1Rw Gendalv (talk) 11:54, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Sources for Polls

There's a large section under 'Public Opinion in Ukraine' that is unsourced 


A second poll conducted from 26 to 29 March showed that 77% of residents condemned the takeover of administrative buildings, while 16% supported such actions. Furthermore, 40.8% of Donetsk citizens supported rallies for Ukraine's unity, while 26.5% supported pro-Russian rallies.[68] In another research poll conducted 8–16 April by KIIS, a vast majority disapproved of the seizure of administrative buildings by protesters. Over 50% of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine considered acting President Oleksandr Turchynov to be illegitimate. Most of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine believed that the disarmament and disbandment of illegal radical groups is crucial to preserving national unity. 19.1% of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine believed that Ukraine should be an independent state, 45.2% were for an independent state but with decentralization of the power to the regions, but most felt Russia and Ukraine should share open borders without visa restrictions; 8.4% were in favour of Ukraine and Russia uniting into a single state. 15.4% said they favoured secession of their region to join the Russian Federation, and 24.8% favoured Ukraine becoming a federation. Most of those polled said they found nothing attractive about Russia, but those who did, did so for economic, and not cultural reasons. Those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine were generally split on the legitimacy of the present government and parliament, but a majority in all regions agreed that deposed president Viktor Yanukovych was not the legal president of the country. In all regions but the Donbas, pro-Euromaidan oligarch Petro Poroshenko dominated preliminary election polls.


The KIIS claim needs a source; I think it's referring to the source directly before it, which already brought up those figures


The rest all needs a source as well, that's a big block of unsourced info. I believe most of it comes from https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0429/Why-Ukraine-is-dialing-back-its-military-offensive-in-anarchic-east - this is the linked source for similar claims in the Revolution of Dignity page, but doesn't have everything


Additionally, the last source in the paragraph is no longer valid; the same one is 'cached' for the Revolution of Dignity page, which provides: https://web.archive.org/web/20140305065533/http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-04/russia-calls-ukraine-intervention-legal-citing-yanukovych-letter.html

However, I see no reference to Poroshenko in there, or these polls, if it was intended to refer to them. Considering it is supposed to be titled 'Southeast Statistics', I don't think this cache is what it's supposed to be


And then a small nitpick and I'm not sure of the standard, but... favour vs favor?


I'd add the source myself, but I don't know enough about wikipedia to be touching a hot page like this Dimencia (talk) 18:26, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

None of this is unsourced. Citations are clearly present. The source for the KIIS data was there, it was just a dead link at the end of the paragraph. I have added in an archive-url now. RGloucester — ☎ 18:48, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
Perfect, I had just found a link to it and came to share, but you got it. Thanks, I think that has all of it in there Dimencia (talk) 18:52, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Unverified: Russian instigation

In the first paragraph of the article, we have:

This unrest, fomented by Russia as part of a co-ordinated political and military campaign against Ukraine,[1]

Is this a valid source for that claim? It contains no proof for these claims, only speculation, and is sponsored by the US Military - the only nation making these claims. It has references, but the references are all once more just lots of speculation without proof, such as this article: https://www.fpri.org/article/2014/04/geopolitical-implications-of-the-ukraine-crisis/

Though of course, I didn't check them all; there may be something hiding in there. But the only supposed evidence is a wiretap conversation, mentioned in the US International Response:

On 30 April, John Kerry stated that phone tap evidence proved that the Kremlin was directing pro-Russian protests in the region.[2]

But this is not a valid link, and I can find no sources that support it. Also, judging by the title of the article, it doesn't sound as if the phone tap conversation was ever released, it was only 'John Kerry says'. Which is fine for the International Response section, but doesn't really go into the first paragraph

Digging further to make sure I didn't miss anything, I notice in the sub-article for Pro-Russian Unrest in the [Russo-Ukrainian War], the opposite claim is made from the same apparent source, that the protests were initially natural and not fomented by Russia:

The initial protests across southern and eastern Ukraine were largely native expressions of discontent with the new Ukrainian government.[1] Russian involvement at this stage was limited to voicing support for the demonstrations, and the emergence of the separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk began as a small fringe group of protesters, independent of Russian control.[1][3]

Of course, it's somewhat obvious to suggest Russia played some part here, but they deny involvement in the early protests, and without evidence, I don't think it's the first thing that should be on the page, unless we have an independently verified source that isn't just, 'because the US said so' It's also a bit of an important point - if the protestors were truly unhappy with their government and these were indeed protests of the people, not instigated by Russia, it paints a very different picture vs what Ukraine and the US claim Dimencia (talk) 06:20, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

We follow reliable sources. It isn't our job to conduct our own analysis (WP:OR). RAND is a perfectly reliable source. If you are claiming that RAND is not reliable, you will need to go to WP:RS/N and make your case. If you need another source for Russian involvement in the early stages, you can look at Wilson's article, which is available without a subscription. Wilson cites Mitrokhin as follows 'The first phase began in April 2014, when special forces (spetsnaz) troops and secret service officials supported criminals from the Donbas region and Russian nationalists who had travelled in from Russia with the aim of seizing power in several cities in the Donbas region, as part of a Russian special operation aimed at destabilising Ukraine'. Mitrokhin's article itself is also available. Mitrokhin's article divides Russian involvement in three phases, starting with the March-April phase, the same way the RAND article does. There is no evidence to suggest that RAND has deviated from the academic consensus on this matter. Taras Kuzio is also cited in the article, and reached the same conclusion. RGloucester — ☎ 14:59, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
We discussed most of this elsewhere and IDK if I should just delete it or what...?
Though even if we're not questioning the sources that do exist, the John Kerry phone tap statement still just, doesn't have one at all, and I can't find anything about it as much as I dig
Do old edits with bad sources automatically get a pass, under the assumption that previous editors probably verified it? Dimencia (talk) 18:35, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
No, if a source is determined to be 'bad', the content gets removed. In this case, there is no evidence that the source is bad. Wikipedia editors do not verify primary source information (WP:OR), as I have said before, they verify that the secondary source doing the primary source analysis is reliable. RGloucester — ☎ 18:50, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
It's literally a dead link Dimencia (talk) 18:53, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with dead links, when they appear in reliable secondary sources. The secondary source analysed the link at the time it was live, and as long as the secondary source itself is considered reliable, there is no problem. In any case, you can easily use web archival services to verify whatever is said for your own purposes, if you are so inclined. RGloucester — ☎ 19:06, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
It's not in a secondary source, it's just a direct reference in the wikipedia page that links to a 404
"John Kerry stated that phone tap evidence proved that the Kremlin was directing pro-Russian protests in the region." cited with https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/phone-taps-show-kremlin-directed-prorussian-thugs-in-ukraine-john-kerry-says/story-fnb64oi6-1226900573929
But after digging hard enough, I did find a single other source for it which is still active, if still also behind a paywall: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/phone-taps-prove-russian-thugs-took-kremlin-orders-pqv57xjwrps
There is also a new link for The Austrailian that kind of works if you prefer that one, but The Times is a little less annoying:
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/phone-taps-show-kremlin-directed-prorussian-thugs-in-ukraine-john-kerry-says/news-story/7b51d843bf9e0fdf964f0e51997ea31e
And wayback did have it as well, I just wasn't looking through the snapshots, which is cool that they have that Dimencia (talk) 19:48, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
Given Rand are on record with a highly anti-Russia bias, and have been funded by the US government/military to find ways to "extend Russia" economically and militarily https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR3000/RR3063/RAND_RR3063.pdf it's highly debatable if Rand are actually a reliable source in this specific context. Amiablestray (talk) 08:43, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
  • I don't see how the book Lessons from Russia's Operations in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine would support the claim that "demonstrations by pro-Russian and anti-government groups [taking place] in the aftermath of the Euromaidan movement and the Revolution of Dignity [were] fomented by Russia as part of a co-ordinated political and military campaign against Ukraine". The book argues the opposite! There might be a serious misunderstanding here.
  • A couple of verbatim quotations from the book help: "The Ukrainian government dismissed the outbreak of protests as provocations organized by pro-Russian agitators and intelligence operators. Russian intelligence may have played a role in fomenting discontent, but the public agitation and outcry appeared genuine and not disconnected from the country’s political divisions"; "Russia’s information campaign was more successful at agitating the West than at delivering tangible results in Ukraine. Studies using survey data and technical analysis of the penetration of Russian broadcasting signals found that the impact of the campaign was grossly overestimated."
  • What the book demonstrates is that a first period of "federalist" political mobilization, which was spontaneous and "home-grown", was followed by a second period of "secessionist" political and military mobilization, in Crimea and Easter-Ukraine, which has been heavily backed by the Russian Federation: "The period of political mobilization to demand for federalization and greater regional autonomy was short-lived. Regional law enforcement cracked down on these people’s governors and, by removing them, inadvertently paved the way for a different set of leadership to take over the movements".
  • I'm afraid here we are misquoting the book. They are not arguing that the demonstrations by pro-Russian and anti-government groups taking place in the aftermath of the Euromaidan movement were fomented by Russia, they are arguing that the take-over of Crimea and the beginning of the war in Donbas were the result of a political-warfare campaign by Russia aimed at destabilizing Ukraine: it's not the same thing!--Gitz (talk) (contribs) 01:27, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree with dimencia but I think the accusations should stay but be labeled as accusations otherwise they’re misrepresenting their sources Bobisland (talk)

Everyone here has really good points I think the best compromise would be to call the accusations as accusations instead of stating them as facts Bobisland (talk)

References

  1. ^ a b c Kofman, Michael; Migacheva, Katya; Nichiporuk, Brian; Radin, Andrew; Tkacheva, Olesya; Oberholtzer, Jenny (2017). Lessons from Russia's Operations in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine (PDF) (Report). Santa Monica: RAND Corporation. pp. 33–34. Cite error: The named reference "de" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
  2. ^ Hoyle, Ben (30 April 2014). "Phone taps show Kremlin directed pro-Russian thugs in Ukraine, John Kerry says". The Australian. Retrieved 30 April 2014.
  3. ^ Wilson, Andrew (20 April 2016). "The Donbas in 2014: Explaining Civil Conflict Perhaps, but not Civil War". Europe-Asia Studies. 68 (4): 631–652. doi:10.1080/09668136.2016.1176994. ISSN 0966-8136. S2CID 148334453.

Split of Kharkiv Peopleś Republic to new article

Split 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine#Failed proposals where the Kharkiv Peopleś Republic is located to new article. It was actually a de facto country for 2 days.SavageBWiki (talk) 13:53, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I am in favor of creating a separate article about the Kharkiv People's Republic. The Spanish wikipedia has an article about it for example, as well as the wikipedia in Aragonese, Japanese, Chinese, Magyar and Dutch Dmoroe6 (talk) 13:35, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
I am also in favour of a new article for the page. This is notable and worth mentioning. Creating a new article would be favourable among the community. Xurum Shatou (talk) 23:26, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

The removal of sources and info

I don’t think sources and info that misrepresents their sourced links, breaks verification rules and some having no source whatsoever should stay up, I also think additional sources that use CNN should stay up as I think they’re reliable Bobisland (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:43, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Removing casualties number

If this page only covers the pro-russian protests in ukraine, then why does the casualties toll from the Donbas war appear? Obviously, 7000 people wouldn’t die in a protest. TankDude2000 (talk) 16:48, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, TankDude2000, for pointing this out. I think you're right and self-reverted. I suggest to avoid similar misunderstandings in the future by using edit summaries. I removed even more stuff from the infobox that seems to relate to the subsequent war in Donbas rather than to our article. At least, MOS:INFOBOX says the purpose of an infobox is to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article, and a complete (or, maybe arbitrarily selected) list of belligerents is certainly not "key facts". Rsk6400 (talk) 13:35, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
I think the casualties toll number remained since 2015 until these days, because the page was used at first to reffer to the War in Donbas. We should probably add at belligerents only the Government and protesters, but not the DPR and LPR. TankDude2000 (talk) 18:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Armed insurgency

@TankDude2000: You removed the term "armed insurgency" from the "method" list twice. The subject of our article was by no means peaceful, hence I don't understand why this should be removed. BTW: Using edit summaries really helps to save time and avoid misunderstandings, see the last discussion we had. Rsk6400 (talk) 05:50, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

The insurgency happened after the protests… TankDude2000 (talk) 07:00, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
Among the results in the infobox we list the establishment of the Luhansk and Donetsk "People's Republics" - and that was hardly the result of peaceful protests. Also: I don't think that there are sources for two different phases - one called "protests", one called "insurgency". Rsk6400 (talk) 07:23, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
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