Talk:Alexander Zakharchenko/Archive 1

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Category:Separatist forces of the war in Donbass

Until 28 March 2017, this article was in Category:Separatist forces of the war in Donbass. There is a discussion at Category talk:Separatist forces of the war in Donbass#What should be included in this category about what should be included in the category.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:03, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Russian proxy leader in Donetsk proclaims creation of new ‘state’

"The Russian-backed forces occupying part of Donetsk Oblast on July 18 proclaimed a new state “Malorossiya,” which they claim will “succeed Ukraine” as a state." Wikipietime (talk) 10:08, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Assassinated by "Washington DC backed Assassins"

From the Article in it's current form:

"The Security Service of Ukraine suggests that Russia may be involved in the assassination."

However, this article attributes blame to "Washington DC backed Assassins"

https://europeansworldwide.wordpress.com/2018/08/31/putins-ukrainian-ally-assassinated/

Which seems strange to me since Zakharchenko is known to be a Putin ally. I think the Article should refrain from blaming anyone until more information is available.2605:6000:6947:AB00:7DC2:6829:634C:762D (talk) 20:20, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Blogs are not reliable sources.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:24, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
Especially not white nationalist blogs. FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 04:25, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Wordpress is user generated content and not reliable sources. Anyone can say anything on a blog. Though I agree with your observation that it's "strange" that Russia would allegedly be involved in the assassination of its ally, this is not a forum to discuss that. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 22:44, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
I think we should keep the finger pointing out of the lede for now, tbh. Currently it says the Kremlin did it. One of hte sources was Euromaidan press (I removed it). I'm not known to be a pro-Putin guy (I got called a "djigit" once) but I have policy doubts (WP:NPOV a big one) about this especially in the "too soon" sense. Thoughts, BrendonTheWizard and Ymblanter?--Calthinus (talk) 15:55, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
I independently removed it (not seen this topic). That the guy was killed by Russians is an opinion (and this is an opinion of a state authority of a state which calls Russian an aggressor), meaning at the very least it is highly biased, or it is a fake. The opinion must not be in the lede at this stage and must be attributed.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:05, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Why the article only names the fourth child

An editor questioned why the article only named the fourth child.[1] The source cited was a news story about the birth of the fourth child.
"У Захарченко родился сын" [Zakharchenko's son was born]. lenta.ru. 30 July 2015.
We can only add the names of his previous children if we find reliable sources that contain the information.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:36, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

I think their point is whether we need the name of the last child if we do not have the names of the other three children.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:37, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
That creates a circular situation, where if someone finds a source that dates before July 2015, it will not be able to name Alexander (because he had not be born yet), and therefore some can say that you cannot name the first three children because you have not named the fourth.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:41, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
I do not have a strong opinion here, just wanted to clarify.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:01, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
WP:BLPNAME says: The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. The names of any immediate, former, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject. (bolding mine)
So the question is whether we have a specific reason to include the names of any of the children, even if we have a reliable source for them. Do the names of any or all of the children add anything to readers' understanding of Zakharchenko that is not covered simply by saying that he has four children? On a different note, I've removed the child's full date of birth per WP:DOB, which says to err on the side of caution for borderline notable people and just include the year. Marianna251TALK 12:48, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
There is no good reason to name the children. It could be notable that the youngest son has his father's name, but without a source this is non-existent notability. Kingsif (talk) 14:55, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
I agree. I think we can keep the source because it confirms the number of Zakharchenko's children, but I don't see a reason to single out the fourth child, so I'll just delete the relevant sentence and leave the ref. Marianna251TALK 18:18, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

To my way of thinking (and I am biased), we should be aiming to make biographies of people like Zakharchenko as good as that for Winston Churchill. Evidently you disagree. I look forward to your implementing that same job you did for Zakharchenko on Barack Obama and Family of Barack Obama. But of course you won't.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:58, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Churchill's children have independent notability, enough to warrant their own Wikipedia articles and warrant their mention in his article, as do Barack Obama's family. At this time, Zakharchenko's children do not. Instead of throwing aspersions at others, please try to assume good faith. Comment on content, not contributors. Marianna251TALK 12:27, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
I am assuming good faith. I assumed that we just disagree.-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:28, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
By saying that I "evidently disagree" with your intent to make Zakharchenko's article as good as Winston Churchill's, and that "of course [I] won't" make similar edits to Churchill's article or those concerning the Obamas, you are saying that 1) you don't think I edited in good faith to make an improvement to Zakharchenko's article and 2) that I operate a double standard between Zakharchenko's article and others. Your comment was clearly meant as a negative comment directed at me. Please read WP:NPA and WP:ASPERSIONS. Marianna251TALK 12:35, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Hawks?

In the responses section, there is this statement: "blaming the hawks within the Ukrainian government for the murder." The English version of that press release on the Kremlin website does not use the word "hawk". Can a Russian-speaking editor check the other link and see if the word hawk is used? Otherwise this seems pejorative and inappropriate. Air♠CombatTalk! 23:15, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Just a note -- if this IS actually quote, it needs to be quoted. If it's *not* an actual quote, it needs to be deleted, and quickly. Air♠CombatTalk! 23:18, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
No, it was not in source, I removed it.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:40, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

First sentence

The first sentence in the version of 23:43, 1 September 2018‎ was as follows:

Alexander Vladimirovich Zakharchenko (Russian: Алекса́ндр Влади́мирович Заха́рченко, IPA: [ɐlʲɪˈksandr vlɐˈdʲimʲɪrəvʲɪtɕ zɐˈxartɕɪnkə], Ukrainian: Олекса́ндр Володи́мирович Заха́рченко; 26 June 1976 – 31 August 2018) was a separatist leader,[1][2] who was the head of state and Prime Minister of the self-proclaimed state and a rebel group Donetsk People's Republic, which declared independence from Ukraine on 11 May 2014.[3][4][5][6]
  1. ^ "Ukraine rebel leader Zakharchenko 'wants 100,000 men'". 2 February 2015. Retrieved 21 October 2016 – via www.bbc.com.
  2. ^ Tisdall, Simon (16 February 2015). "EU gets tough with Russian military leaders – and Soviet-era 'Sinatra'". Retrieved 21 October 2016 – via The Guardian.
  3. ^ "Pro-Russians: Ukraine's Donetsk 'Independent'". News.sky.com. 12 May 2014. Retrieved 12 June 2014.
  4. ^ "Премьер-министром ДНР стал россиянин Александр Бородай". Retrieved 9 February 2015.
  5. ^ "Ukraine's bogus referendums". The Economist. 11 May 2014. Retrieved 20 May 2014.
  6. ^ "Ukraine crisis: Donetsk leader dismisses Kremlin support claim". Financial Times. 3 June 2014. Retrieved 3 June 2014.

By 13:24, 2 September 2018, there had been one change:

"a rebel group" had become "once-rebel group".

Then Openlydialectic changed it to:

Alexander Vladimirovich Zakharchenko (Russian: Алекса́ндр Влади́мирович Заха́рченко, IPA: [ɐlʲɪˈksandr vlɐˈdʲimʲɪrəvʲɪtɕ zɐˈxartɕɪnkə], Ukrainian: Олекса́ндр Володи́мирович Заха́рченко; 26 June 1976 – 31 August 2018) was a terrorist[1][2][3][4] leader,[5][6] who was the head of state and Prime Minister of the self-proclaimed Russian puppet proto-state[7][8][9] and terrorist group[1][2][3][4] "Donetsk People's Republic", which declared independence from Ukraine on 11 May 2014.[10][11][12][13]
  1. ^ a b "Умер главный террорист Александр Захарченко". znaj.ua (in Russian). 2018-08-31. Retrieved 2018-09-02.
  2. ^ a b "Пострадавший от взрыва в «Сепаре» террорист Тимофеев появился на похоронах Захарченко" (in Russian). Retrieved 2018-09-02.
  3. ^ a b "Террорист Басурин сообщил, что при покушении на Захарченко погибли двое и получили ранения девять человек". Retrieved 2018-09-02.
  4. ^ a b "Террорист Захарченко назвал смерть Кобзона "уходом целой эпохи"". ТСН.ua (in Russian). 2018-08-30. Retrieved 2018-09-02.
  5. ^ "Ukraine rebel leader Zakharchenko 'wants 100,000 men'". 2 February 2015. Retrieved 21 October 2016 – via www.bbc.com.
  6. ^ Tisdall, Simon (16 February 2015). "EU gets tough with Russian military leaders – and Soviet-era 'Sinatra'". Retrieved 21 October 2016 – via The Guardian.
  7. ^ "The leader of the Russian-backed republic in Ukraine was just assassinated in a cafe bombing". Business Insider. Retrieved 2018-09-02.
  8. ^ "Who is who in the Kremlin proxy "Donetsk People's Republic" |". Euromaidan Press. 2017-10-30. Retrieved 2018-09-02.
  9. ^ "Russia rejects new Donetsk rebel 'state'". BBC News. 2017-07-19. Retrieved 2018-09-02.
  10. ^ "Pro-Russians: Ukraine's Donetsk 'Independent'". News.sky.com. 12 May 2014. Retrieved 12 June 2014.
  11. ^ "Премьер-министром ДНР стал россиянин Александр Бородай". Retrieved 9 February 2015.
  12. ^ "Ukraine's bogus referendums". The Economist. 11 May 2014. Retrieved 20 May 2014.
  13. ^ "Ukraine crisis: Donetsk leader dismisses Kremlin support claim". Financial Times. 3 June 2014. Retrieved 3 June 2014.

By 13:20, 3 September 2018 this had become:

Alexander Vladimirovich Zakharchenko (Russian: Алекса́ндр Влади́мирович Заха́рченко, IPA: [ɐlʲɪˈksandr vlɐˈdʲimʲɪrəvʲɪtɕ zɐˈxartɕɪnkə], Ukrainian: Олекса́ндр Володи́мирович Заха́рченко; 26 June 1976 – 31 August 2018) was the head of state and Prime Minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, which declared independence from Ukraine on 11 May 2014.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][excessive citations]
  1. ^ "Pro-Russians: Ukraine's Donetsk 'Independent'". News.sky.com. 12 May 2014. Retrieved 12 June 2014.
  2. ^ "Премьер-министром ДНР стал россиянин Александр Бородай". Retrieved 9 February 2015.
  3. ^ "Ukraine's bogus referendums". The Economist. 11 May 2014. Retrieved 20 May 2014.
  4. ^ "Ukraine crisis: Donetsk leader dismisses Kremlin support claim". Financial Times. 3 June 2014. Retrieved 3 June 2014.
  5. ^ "The leader of the Russian-backed republic in Ukraine was just assassinated in a cafe bombing". Business Insider. Retrieved 2 September 2018.
  6. ^ "Who is who in the Kremlin proxy "Donetsk People's Republic" |". Euromaidan Press. 30 October 2017. Retrieved 2 September 2018.
  7. ^ "Russia rejects new Donetsk rebel 'state'". BBC News. 19 July 2017. Retrieved 2 September 2018.

In my opinion, the first sentence in the version of 23:43, 1 September 2018‎ was better. I think the word "separatist" is good. I would prefer to delete the word "a" before "rebel group". I agree that there has been an excessive accretion of citations at the end of the sentence.-- Toddy1 (talk) 14:11, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Ok i changed it back to the september 1 version. Waskerton (talk) 05:25, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Category:People murdered in Ukraine

I do not agree with the inclusion of Alexander Zakharchenko in Category:People murdered in Ukraine. President Putin says that it was murder, but Wikipedia has a neutral point of view. Category:People murdered in Nazi Germany does not include people like Günther Korten who died as a result of an essentially similar bombing on 20 July 1944 intended to kill the German leader. Why should the incident that killed Zakharchenko be treated any differently?-- Toddy1 (talk) 14:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Actually, Ukrainian officials say he was murdered as well, but I agree that inclusion of this category is premature until the majority of reliable sources agree he was murdered.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:23, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

This is an obvious assassination (I'm taking this as a premise, so feel free to disagree), so we should argue whether assassination can be considered murder, which I believe to be the case. The word "murder" carries an inherent meaning of unlawfulness, so a neutral use of the word would only be possible upon consensus that the assassination was unlawful, which already means going into the merits. Since the Ukrainian government itself has denied any involvement, is not resourcing to openly killing separatist leaders and doesn't have capital punishment, I believe it's not biased to call it murder. Leefeniaures audiendi audiat 19:48, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Just a comment, Arsen Pavlov and Mikhail Tolstykh both have categories relating to murder in ukraine. While I have no strong opinion on if it should be included or not, I just ask that we try to be consistant between all the leading figures who have been killed. Murchison-Eye (talk) 00:02, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

IMO, nothing wrong with adding this category when all sides of the conflict agree that it was an assassination; the disagreement is over which side is responsible for it. I agree that assassination is by definition murder, the definition is literally "killing or murder for political reasons." That shouldn't even be controversial. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 16:01, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I do not agree that assassination is by definition murder - for example only the Nazis considered the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich to be murder.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:30, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
It's not a subject of opinion whether or not it is by definition murder when it's literally in the actual definition, and nothing in the Heydrich article mentions any sort of disagreement about whether or not his assassination did or did not constitute murder, so that argument holds no weight. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 04:22, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

See also

This section concern this edit: : 907213871
Please use the {{tq|i=1| quote here ... }} to make a quote

@Ymblanter: The listed links I've provided are all indirectly related to the article's subject; they link to the warlords and leaders of the same republics; due to absence of decent navigation I believe it's beneficial to have them listed; you also may not justify removal by saying there is no article in the english wiki; you also have not specified which part of the WP:ALSO is applicable exactly so I ask you return back see also links. Thanks. DAVRONOVA.A. ✉ ⚑ 22:11, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

May I please suggest that you first read our manual of style? Also have a look at other biographioes, none of them has 20 items under SEEALSO. If these items are so important please integrate them into prose.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:42, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Specifically, SEEALSO says redlinks are not allowed, and the number of links must be reasonable. The best number of links to have is zerto, but now we have one link, which is a reasonable number. Twenty is unreasonable.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:57, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
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