Talk:All the Way (Eddie Vedder song)

All the Way (Eddie Vedder song) has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 29, 2008	Good article nominee	Listed

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Song year

If the song was first performed in 2007 doesn't it belong in Category:2007 songs?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the songs from Ten were first performed in 1990, but they are listed as 1991 songs because that was the year of their first release to the public. "All the Way" wasn't officially released to the public until 2008.-5- (talk) 04:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrics

Why don't you think the following text belongs with the explanation of the lyrics. "According to at least one source, the song is reminiscent of "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall" by Bob Dylan and much less upbeat than "Go, Cubs, Go" by Steve Goodman." --TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a critical review of the song, thus it belongs in the section relating to its reception. It is typical of song articles to put critics' comments in a reception section.-5- (talk) 04:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Take Me Out To The Ballgame image

I have asked both http://www.flickr.com/photos/dcproducts/1075149144/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/julierubes/1040246117/ to change their licensing for our article. So far one has. Which do you prefer for the article

The first one.-5- (talk) 03:28, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Under Armour ad

It is possible that this album and its cover art may also be an artisitic statement about the outfield advertising. Even if it isn't we may want to add an image for the recent text addition. Here are our choices: Image:Wrigley_ads1.JPG or request permission from one of the following:

Any thoughts?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really think the article needs any more images. To tell you the truth, it may be too much of an opinion and interpretation to get into whether or not the album cover is a statement about the advertising on the wall. I think it would be best to stick to the facts and just focus on the song rather than anything else.-5- (talk) 03:55, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

image position

The multiple image template looks bad on the right when viewed on a high resolution screen setting. I view at 1680x1050. The page looks bad at that setting. Can we move the Vedder Cubs relationship paragraph down lower?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I switched my screen to 1680x1050 temporarily and did some readjusting. I also added some information about the background of the song.-5- (talk) 06:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The images are still poorly aligned at 1680 width because now the Auditorium image is no where near the text. A slight improvement would be to move the infobox up to be even with the hatnote. That wont fix it totally though. Either we need more text before the Auditorium paragraph or we have to think about it some more. Of course 1024 is the most common width and it looks O.K. for that.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:33, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does the Auditorium image have to be in the Origin and recording section? I think it looks fine where it is now.-5- (talk) 06:41, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All the Way (Eddie Vedder song) GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:All the Way (Eddie Vedder song)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Uhmmm, who produced the track?
- It wasn't produced, since it is a live recording.-5- (talk) 01:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I see. No worries. --Efe (talk) 11:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The genre do not coincides with the genre written under the section lyrics. What is the difference between folk rock and folk music?
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
”performed by Evanston, Illinois native and Pearl Jam frontman Eddie Vedder about the Chicago Cubs.” I think that Illinois stuff is not necessary. Maybe “American singer” or to that effect. Also, its better to identify what Chicago Cubs is.
- We are trying to show he is a local boy doing good by his home town team.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:36, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Ah, ok. But it would be better to live that part in the origin section alone. Its too detailed, I think, for the lead? --Efe (talk) 06:40, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - The fact that he is a Chicagoan is so important to the article that it should be in the lead and the body, IMO.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:38, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - No offense but I think you're just so attached with this Chicago-related article. Its too detailed. This is about the song. --Efe (talk) 11:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe the lead could be expanded at least to two paragraphs?
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The two images under the first section does not actually give/add info, or increase understanding of the topic?
- They serve to augment the paragraph about the August 2007 trip to Chicago where he initially performed the song.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
~~”who was raised in Evanston, Illinois and later San Diego County, California” this is unnecessary.~~ --Efe (talk) 06:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Doesn't this explain who much of an Evanstonian he is. I would not chop it so fast.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
~~”with Cubs pitcher Kerry Wood and other Cubs players in attendance”~~ I think this is not important
- If you want a story about the song this is part of it.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - that seems so off-topic. this is about the song. --Efe (talk) 07:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - I would say any guest other than the Cubs would be off-topic. But all Cubs are on topic.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - This definately seems like nitpicking to me. How does that not relate to the song? The song is about the Cubs. The sentence could either say, "Vedder wrote "All the Way" the night before the camp started and first performed it at Pearl Jam's August 2, 2007 concert at The Vic Theater in Chicago with Cubs pitcher Kerry Wood and other Cubs players in attendance," or "Vedder wrote "All the Way" the night before the camp started and first performed it at Pearl Jam's August 2, 2007 concert at The Vic Theater in Chicago." We're talking about eleven extra words in the sentence which I think provide context and make up an important fact to note when discussing the song's debut performance.-5- (talk) 02:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        I think nit-picking is fine as long as the reviewer doesnt ask for something that supersedes the given GA criteria. Anyway, I would suggest using your second suggestion. Sounds better. --Efe (talk) 11:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Are you suggesting that it is not relevant that he first performed this song with several Chicago Cubs in the audience. I think that is a bit silly. When a singer writes a song about a subject it is important to say that they were present when it was first played. If you wrote a song about your girlfriend, would it be important if she were present when you first performed it?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 11:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        I don't have a girlfriend. Its "User:BritandBeyonce", the gay user you've met before. Well, if you think its important, I'll let it pass. Anyway, its related to the Cubs. --Efe (talk) 12:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This, I don’t know that the significance: “On August 3, 2007, one day after "All the Way" was premiered live, Vedder performed "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" during the seventh-inning stretch at Wrigley Field for the fourth time and threw out the first pitch for the first time. Vedder's band, Pearl Jam, was in Chicago that week to perform at Lollapalooza,[6] where the band was the headlining act for the three day festival that ended on August 5, 2007.[9]”
- This is all an effort to show his relation with the Cubs that spurred the song.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I see no significance. same with the above comment. --Efe (talk) 07:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Vedder's Cub fandom must be put in context for this article to be complete.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - What's with the relevance of Vedder performing "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" and Lollapalooza? --Efe (talk) 12:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        The Take Me Out to the Ballgame stuff is an embodiment of his Cubs fandom that is at the core of the writing of the song. Lollapalooza contextualizes his visit to Chicago.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This also: “Vedder performed at the Auditorium Theatre on August 21 and August 22, 2008 on a three-week extension of his solo tour that began in Boston, Massachusetts at the Boston Opera House and ended in Chicago.[10] The solo tour had originally begun in Vancouver, British Columbia in Canada at The Centre on April 2, 2008.[11][12] This tour was Vedder's first solo tour and it included highlights of Vedder's work on the Into the Wild soundtrack.[13][12]” Well, the first line has significance as it somewhat supports the preceding sentence. However, the following two sentences are too much detailed.
- If you want to know how Eddie Vedder and this song are part of a story you need most of this. You might be able to do without "it included highlights of Vedder's work on the Into the Wild soundtrack", but the rest must stay.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:48, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think it best fits to an article about the tour. same with the above comments. --Efe (talk) 07:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - I removed the part I said is removable above.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Same with this: Philip K. Wrigley added ivy to the outfield walls of Wrigley Field in 1937.[19] Wrigley Field is the home stadium for the Chicago Cubs, and its wall is well-known for being covered in ivy except for a few select places where signs are present as well as doors to locker rooms and such. The brick is visible under the ivy at the stadium in locations where the signs designate the distance from the wall to home plate measured in feet. ‘’’The cover art image replaces the distance with the words "All the Way".’’’ Through 2006, the only signs on the outfield walls had been these signs designating the distance to homeplate. Then, on February 14, 2007, the Cubs announced that they would place advertisements for Under Armour on the outfield doors in left and right field.[20][21][22] I think the highlighted part is the only significant part?
- I think you are asking if everything that takes this from a stub to a GA story about a subject is important. If you want a stub just take everything out.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - well, its doesn't hurt if its stub. but adding too much isnt good. off-topic. --Efe (talk) 07:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - There is no WP:RS about the ivy as it pertains to cover art. Thus, it is up to me to put things in context without doing WP:OR. I stand by this info and will take the article to WP:GAR if you disagree.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - I do not have concerns Tony except the criterion I mentioned above. --Efe (talk) 11:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        I have reread this part. Seems ok now. --Efe (talk) 12:25, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Steve Goodman's immortal "A Dying Cubs Fan’s Last Request"  Immortal is a point of view.
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:43, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the track listing is of no avail because it only consists of one track.
- You are correct.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

--Efe (talk) 06:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

The problem of this article is that there are lots of unnecessary info. It doesn't help the readers increase their understanding about the song. I'm afraid it fails to meet criterion 3b. --Efe (talk) 07:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I stand by this article and will take the article to WP:GAR if you don't feel it is up to snuff. However, I have responded to several of your points.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its up to you. But for now, let's settle what we can settle. I'll take someone to take a look in. Maybe a second opinion? --Efe (talk) 11:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments, and final

Since the above comments are not yet fully addressed, I can still see some parts that tend to be off-topic. Forget the above Tony.

"The solo tour had originally begun in Vancouver, British Columbia in Canada at The Centre on April 2, 2008.[12][13] This tour was Vedder's first solo tour.[14][13]"
- This is an interesting fact that I dug up. I would accept second opinions on its propriety in the article. I don't think it is just irrelevant drivel, but it is slightly off topic. There are times on WP, where you have information that should be WP:PRESERVEd and the exact proper location does not have an article. I think this may be one of those times. I do not think this particular tour is WP:N in terms of a dedicated article. The info I present here should be PRESERVEd.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 12:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Well, that guideline does says that important facts should be preserved but the line he started the tour, and ends the tour, is too detailed. The only stuff that I can see closely relevant is the second sentence: "Vedder performed at the Auditorium Theatre on August 21 and August 22, 2008 on a three-week extension of his solo tour that began in Boston, Massachusetts at the Boston Opera House and ended in Chicago." which is a supporting fact to the information of the song which is Vedder's performance. But the line: "The solo tour had originally begun in Vancouver, British Columbia in Canada at The Centre on April 2, 2008. This tour was Vedder's first solo tour." is indeed an but additional fact to his tour. Well, it his criterion 3b: "it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail". --Efe (talk) 12:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - If saying the song was performed at a concert that was part of a tour is relevant certainly a show that was part of a tour that was his first solo tour should be fully contextualized. If it were a random tour just the concert would be relevant. When I see this information I think of Sting and noting/contextualizing his first solo tour is a big deal.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"On August 3, 2007, one day after "All the Way" was premiered live, Vedder performed "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" during the seventh-inning stretch at Wrigley Field for the fourth time and threw out the first pitch for the first time. Vedder's band, Pearl Jam, was in Chicago that week to perform at Lollapalooza,[8] where the band was the headlining act for the three day festival that ended on August 5, 2007.[10]"
- Again, I feel this adds further color to the Vedder-Cubs relationship. It provides context to the primary subject. People may want to know why he was in Chicago.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 12:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Ok, lets chop this: "Vedder wrote "All the Way" the night before the camp started and first performed it at Pearl Jam's August 2, 2007 concert at The Vic Theater in Chicago with Cubs pitcher Kerry Wood and other Cubs players in attendance.[5][9] On August 3, 2007, one day after "All the Way" was premiered live, Vedder performed "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" during the seventh-inning stretch at Wrigley Field for the fourth time and threw out the first pitch for the first time. Vedder's band, Pearl Jam, was in Chicago that week to perform at Lollapalooza,[8] where the band was the headlining act for the three day festival that ended on August 5, 2007.[10]" Do you mean the highlighted line supports the first line of this quoted paragraph? What is the relevance of Vedder performing "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" and his first pitch? --Efe (talk) 12:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Asked and answered above.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:22, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Listeners are encouraged to compare the song to Goodman's "Go, Cubs, Go".[27]" --> There's something wrong with this. --Efe (talk) 12:25, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I would accept suggestions on rephrasing or contextualizing. I think it is interesting that people are encouraged to compare the songs.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 12:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes I can a little signifinace there but who said or who encouraged listeners? --Efe (talk) 12:55, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Oops. Sorry. But I feel its tone is not encyclopedic. The line "nd much less upbeat than the song "Go, Cubs, Go" by American folk music singer-songwriter Steve Goodman" is enough. --Efe (talk) 12:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Opinion Needed I have been arguing with my co-author on the placement of the hatnote. I have argued that I prefer the infobox to start on the level of the hatnote but he wants it to start at the level of the text. Basically, we are arguing about whether {{otheruses4}} should come before {{Infobox Single}}. I would like the infobox to be first because the Auditorium image will line up better at the high resolution viewing (I view at 1680x1050). Do you have an opinion?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:23, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LEAD#Content of the lead says the hatnote should be placed aboe the infobox. Giggy (talk) 12:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Efe asked me to comment here. I mostly agree with Tony/-5-. This isn't a particularly long article, so any information that adds context, or even acts as a cool tidbit of (relevant) trivia, is welcome if sourceable, IMO. In the discussions above it's often argued that the stuff Efe is asking to be removed does add understanding, and thus should stay. I generally agree. Giggy (talk) 12:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have passed the article because I'll be out for two days. Congrats. BTW, please adress the remaining comment of mine bout the line "Listeners are encouraged to compare the song to Goodman's "Go, Cubs, Go". Thanks. --Efe (talk) 01:15, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Outfield signs

There is an IP edit war about the relevance of the Under Armour signs. The cover art is an important part of this article. The article as it exists attempts to fully contextualize the signs in the outfield for those who don't know the history of Wrigley field.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The presence of Under Armour signs has absolutely nothing to do with the "reception" of the song...which is the section the information is in. The constant reverting of this change in ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.127.230.139 (talk) 19:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The section is not just about the reception, it is "Release and reception". That covers the release of the single and the resulting praise/criticism of the song. Information about the cover art of the single deals with the release portion of the section.-5- (talk) 19:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

UnderArmour advertisements, their history at WF, etc... have nothing to do with the release of the album either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.127.230.139 (talk) 19:53, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Check out the discussion on this same talk page above dealing with your issue. It's under the title, "All the Way (Eddie Vedder song) GA Review".-5- (talk) 19:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It still has nothing to do with the "Release and Reception" of the song....it needs to be in another section or deleted all toghether...it is totally inappropriate where it is right now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.127.230.139 (talk) 19:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cover art is an artistic issue. Commercialism and artistic integrity of the outfield are at issue here.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:06, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but it has NOTHING to do with the "release" and "reception" of the single. I'm not sure that the two of you understand what "release" and "reception" mean in this context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.127.230.139 (talk) 20:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since when is cover are irrelevant to release. Topics related to cover art belong in the release section.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:30, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Only I can say is that part is too much. It looks like the article is about the signs? the field? Also, I would discourage adding this part "The Huffington Post encourages listeners to compare the song to Goodman's "Go, Cubs, Go"." as suggested above. Its very unencyclopedic, if its the word. --Efe (talk) 08:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tone question

Well, not EXACTLY "tone", but...Here, this sentence:

"Although Pearl Jam vocalist Eddie Vedder, who was raised in Evanston, Illinois and later San Diego County, California,[6] is closely associated with grunge music,[4] he has been a lifelong Chicago Cubs fan."

That "although..." seems really strange there. "Although he's associated with grunge, he also likes the Cubs"? That's basically what the sentence structure boils down to, when you take out the adjectival clauses; and it implies that somehow the two associations (grunge music vs. Cubs fan) are somehow mutually exclusive, or at least highly uncommon. Does anyone else find it odd, or am I just seeing things? GJC 00:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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