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Archive 15Archive 16Archive 17Archive 18Archive 19Archive 20Archive 25

Introduction rewrite

I propose the following rewrite to the Introduction. It aims to refocus the passage towards an overview of the American Revolutionary War. I have tried to capture EVERY comprehensive element of the existing introduction, leaving less New England-centered detail.

I've separated out paragraphs as sections to aid editors in contributing comments, with the existing passage first, indented in smaller font for direct comparison.

Elements in both versions are listed after the proposed change. Where convenient, changes in each version are underlined, text omitted in the existing, text added in the proposed.

First Intro Paragraph

- Sincerely, TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Comments:
AGREE. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 22:05, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Second Intro Paragraph

- Sincerely, TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Comments:
AGREE. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:11, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Third Intro Paragraph

- Sincerely, TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Comments:
AGREE. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:33, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Fourth Intro Paragraph

- Sincerely, TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Comments:
AGREE. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 17:01, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Fifth Intro Paragraph

- Sincerely, TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Comments:
Agree. History of Whigs and Tories is not exactly appropriate for the lede in this 'war' article, but should be mentioned in brief in the body of the text. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:22, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

end proposal

14:42, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Copy edit: "Background Taxation & Legislation"

The copy edit here, (a) cut 50+ words without losing any citations; (b) includes some British perspective; and - - - (c) broadens the narrative perspective beyond the previous emphasis on Boston Harbor. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:09, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Friendly reminder

The article has recently expanded to 110k of readable prose, which is considered over the limit set by guidelines. In the past I've resisted reducing the article size for exceptional articles when the information is well summarized, but there is a limit to everything and it seems that 110k is well past that limit. Would recommend moving and summarizing some of the aftermath material to the American Revolution article if it's not already there. Currently I have been reducing, rewriting and moving material in the dedicated biographical sections for Washington, Howe, et al, to the given appropriate sections. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:18, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Agree. I had thought to follow in your wake and see what else might be trimmed. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 21:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. As said before, this article should cover the actual war for independence foremost, while we summarize the events that occurred before and after the war, for historical context and narrative flow. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:37, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

The Treaties of Versailles

This section is quite tangential to the war for independence, is almost a page long, is entirely devoted to trade and remote issues involving Britain, France Spain and the Netherlands during the aftermath of the actual war, while America is only mentioned in passing reference. It would do much better in the American Revolution article. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:08, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Agree.
However, it is worth noting, that the information and references within that section are nevertheless useful for the ongoing WIKI-WARS here, facing off with editors who insist that in a slippery GB-centric way, all contemporaneous British warfare, with every belligerent anywhere around the world 1775-1784, was caused by the natal-imperial Americans pulling all the strings among the clueless EUROS, both among the Court of France and among the Court of Spain, - - - this AT THE SAME TIME Congress could not jawbone its "requisitions" from the respective state legislatures (though Massachusetts and Virginia were the BEST-responders, with over 50% of the formula paid into the US treasury as of 1783 - - the formula UNANIMOUSLY agreed to in Congress).
posted - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 21:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
3. For the immediate purpose at hand, at David Hackett Fisher we see he wrote WP (book): Washington's Crossing, which in turn offers another lead for my draft Aftermath Section narrative on post-war Veteran citizenship and enfranchisement: "The Americans' policy of humanity to their defeated opponents was so attractive that large numbers of the Hessian enemy stayed in America, and more returned with their families following the war." TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 06:43, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- p.s. Philip Jenkins here, describing nine of the juiciest fallacies, nominates Historians’ Fallacies as a classic to be re-read, and he also recommends David Henige, Historical Evidence and Argument (2005). TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 06:57, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Copy edit: "Colonial response"

posted - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 06:43, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Without loss of any citations, total cut of over 400 words per Word documents, including the ce to paragraphs moved. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 09:17, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Copy edit: "War breaks out (1775-1776)"

Copy edit to clarify and trim 350 words here, without loss of citations. Right justify image for viewers with disabilities, ce captions to 1-2 lines. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 16:27, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Copy edit: "Colonial response"

posted - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 06:43, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Without loss of any citations, total cut of over 400 words per Word documents, including the ce to paragraphs moved. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 09:17, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Copy edit: "War breaks out (1775-1776)"

Copy edit to clarify and trim 350 words here, without loss of citations. Right justify image for viewers with disabilities, ce captions to 1-2 lines. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 16:27, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Copy edit "Political reactions"

Copy edit for clarity and trim 60 words without loss of citations here. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 06:33, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Formatting error

There is a formatting error in the middle of the article that I am not experienced enough to fix. I wanted to call attention to an editor more experienced than I am to fix.

I think that may have been caused by the capricious and indiscriminate disruption in the article earlier this week. I have three more RESTORE posts to repair the wp:bully's deletions, which I hope to complete by Sunday...sorry, real life intervenes, and it takes precedence over, the hobby. Thanks for your interest. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 07:33, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

For new arrivals and returning editors

Once again, the discussions continue to take on new topics which often occur in the middle of existing discussions. Some of the latest discussions can be found here, here, and here. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:03, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

NPOV tag

From the beginning there was no consensus or initial discussion for the NPOV tag that was twice deposited in this article by one individual editor. However, at the time there was still little to no coverage for a number of central American figures in the article, and as such the NPOV was actually appropriate, in spite of the intentions of the depositing editor. Since then adequate coverage has been afforded to figures like Lafayette, Paul Revere, Jefferson, Parker, et al, and as such the NPOV tag is no longer appropriate. The entire article should not be tagged because of the misgivings of one apparently disgruntled editor who has largely ignored the well reasoned and sourced explanations. The issues at hand have been addressed at length with an array of sources brought to the table to back them up. Over the last few weeks a good number of editors have chimed in who expressed dismay over the previous British-centric leaning to the article. Other editors were notified at the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history about the disagreements, but none of them have chimed in since the appeal was submitted more than a month ago. Seems it's time to remove the ill inspired retaliatory npov tag and move on, as, at this late date, there is only a singular consensus for it. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 07:33, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

The NPOV issue is still present, given that the article is now even more slanted against events in the war that occurred outside of North America than it was before.XavierGreen (talk) 16:50, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
There is no consensus or literary substance in the article to support that notion. Many events that occurred outside the mainland are indeed covered -- certainly not all of them, as was once the case when this article had two sections for India, two sections for Europe etc. We've been through this time and again for you. The article is about the war for/against independence. Hence, we cover the war, with brief mention about the events that occurred before during and after that war. It's a wonder that the International war breaks out section is still as large as it is. It seems you've made it clear that you will never be happy. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:33, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Your and TVH's vision of this article's scope directly conflicts with the vast majority of scholarship on the subject. For example, your instance that no events in India or the Indian Ocean were part of the American Revolutionary War, that the campaign in the West Indies was not part of the war, your assertions that Spain was not a belligerent in the war ect. Your collective multitude of comments on this talk page make it plainly evident that there is an NPOV issue, and simply stating over and over gain that there isn't one will do nothing to resolve that problem. I don't know what you two are trying to achieve through your rework of this page, but is pretty plain that the article as you two envision it will fail the GA standard, let alone FA status.XavierGreen (talk) 20:11, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Blur... There is no consensus for that notion. And your notion that this article was once closer to GA status than it is now is ridiculous. TVH and myself are not the only ones who have made edits in the article, with overwhelming consensus. Let the readers be reminded of your POV/quote: "American independence was merely just one issue..." The idea of American independence was the central issue and why the American Revolution was started. That you fail to grasp such basics only exemplifies how unreasonable you've been all along. Sorry. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:23, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@XavierGreen: Nuts!. A month ago I surveyed the thirty RS from your side and challenged every one. There is no answer in over a month in any instance. There is none to make. As one misconstrued author put it, “This is not a history of the American Revolutionary War.”

Citing him, you cannot posit that the British naval strategy in a WORLDWIDE Anglo-French contest for empire meant that the ARW American revolt against Britain for independence in America "spread", "lead", or "caused" a worldwide conflict before and after the ARW in the Anglo-French Second Hundred Years' War 1689-1815, which had seven wars without the help of the ARW. So, NOT.

Sincerely, TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 21:35, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

British Denigration, Harassment, Vandalism, and Revisionism

There are an assortment of pages on Wikipedia in which British editors have been deliberately removing or revising American influence and coverage from the article. I'm simply appalled but sadly not surprised to see that this is one of them.

Why does this page have no mention whatsoever of the ideological reasons for the Revolution? 021120x (talk) 21:22, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

A separate page exists for the political aspects of the American RevolutionXavierGreen (talk) 22:15, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
@021120x:. Actually, this article briefly covers the reasons and events that led to the actual war for independence, but only in brief summary, as this article primarily lends itself to the battles and such. As pointed out here above there is a dedicated article for the politics, ideologies, etc, that were involved before and during the war. Appreciate your concern. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:36, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
@021120x: Your opinion about "British Denigration", perhaps over stated, is not without merit, imo. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

RE: Spain and the Netherlands

I'm actually quite OK with them being listed as belligerents. Though their involvement DIRECTLY to the 13 colonies cause was minimal, they were still tangentially involved nonetheless. My basic US education always made mention, though reduced in importance to France, and speaking anecdotally I have never really seen much resentment towards that. Note that I am aware of the, and careful to avoid the Middle Ground Fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation) however I feel where justified we can make some concession. While I would never support such things as making action concerning Gibraltar integral to the ARW, I could be comfortable with tangential mention of Spain and the Netherlands, while still keeping mind that their issues with GB at the time were concurrent with the ARW, pre-dated the ARW and outlived in some form or fashion the ARW. I appreciate the primary goal here is to both reduce bloat and to excise revisionist history agenda pushing, however if mention of Spain and the Netherlands can be handled succinctly and kept only within the scope of how it related to the subject matter I feel it would have a place. Jersey John (talk) 01:01, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Well said. As for referring to Spain and the Netherlands as belligerents, I am somewhat flexible at this point, just so long as we are indeed clear about the capacity of their respective involvements. Context and due weight is the key. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:25, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
AGREE with if mention of Spain and the Netherlands can be handled succinctly and kept only within the scope of how it related to the subject matter I feel it would have a place . . . if placement in the article narrative "subject matter" is military operations "related to", and NOT "derivative" or "tenuous" to, US independence and sovereignty.
DISAGREE with "quite OK with [Spain & Netherlands] being listed as belligerents in the Infobox BECAUSE they were, as Jersey John, Jros83 says, "tangential" to the ARW when they BOTH failed to join the French-US defensive alliance to guarantee US independence, either when they were invited in 1778 or thereafter . . . and "tangential" does not belong in the Infobox, IMO . . . AND . . . Canute warns of too many qualifying notes in the Infobox violates the MOS . . . TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:07, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Whatever looks best I'm all for. Jersey John (talk) 08:23, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
I think rather too much weight has been given to the Chávez book. Its biggest flaw is tunnel vision about what Spain was doing to the exclusion of the bigger picture. Chávez has almost nothing to say about the Netherlands, for instance. I'm all for telling the reader that Spain was helpful, but we're making it look too big. Binksternet (talk) 08:34, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Infobox housekeeping

Dear fellow editors: while we are all here and collegially exchanging ideas to improve the article, I'd like to report some few "housekeeping" Infobox edits that I hope that you will all find uncontroversial. I've placed my hoped-for-uncontroversial intent in bold at each report. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 09:23, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

1. Issue: Copy edit an Infobox note clarify & trim 39 words per Canute, here:
Sincerely, TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 09:23, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
2. Issue: Preexisting Infobox can extend into the article main space, visually disrupting the Introduction. - - See previous discussion by Canute above.
- Partial solution: Infobox ce here to create a one-line Infobox entry for each item,
- by employing three methods. HOWEVER, maintaining the pre-existing edit whenever possible, and without disrupting any citations:
- (1) ce text within existing parentheses; applying standard abbreviations, such as replacing “and” with ampersand “&”, or removing superfluous articles, “the”, etc., or within parentheses text replacing “United States” with “US”, or replacing “(in British West Florida)” with “in Brit. W. Florida”, to meet space requirements for a one-line entry;
- (2) remove (parenthetical) non-essential Infobox text already found in existing note.
- (3) Additional considerations:
Sincerely, TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:53, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Restore disruptive vandalism of June 11

To begin documenting forward for any future administrator use:

Following unwarranted personal attacks on me, with repeated accusations in the edit summary again, "Revert disruptive edits by TVH" (sometimes alternating with "blatant NPOV") -- this time concerning my removing the disputed wp:error Infobox flags of foreign war belligerents unrelated to the British-US war over US independence and territory, - - - - discussed at Talk and supported by Britannica but without a reply for a month, other than repeated appeals to "all RS" and an unnamed and unlinked RfC "consensus".

Wholesale deletions of my contributions in the article narrative were made without notice or discussion under the pretext of restoring Infobox flags by the editor in question at 21:29 11 June 2020.

posted - TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 07:27, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Reply & discuss

You deleted spain and the Netherlands from the infobox, to which there is plainly no consensus here to do. You are well aware of this, as you've been active on the talk page here.XavierGreen (talk) 13:37, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Wait, so I deserve wp:bully? Hey, "Who sent for you?"
(a) Adding Spain and Netherlands as ARW belligerents is wp:FRINGE at best.
The preponderance of reliable scholarship on the topic is reflected in mainstream BRITISH references: Encyclopaedia Britannica at "American Revolutionary War", AND Routledge Publishers, Dictionary of War (1999), “American Revolution (1775-83)”. - - - They do NOT describe the American Revolutionary War as encompassing the geography and battles of other wars in other places - - all concluded in territorial settlements between Britain and belligerents OTHER THAN those engaged in the ARW for or against US independence and sovereignty in America 1775-1783, settled in a GB-US Treaty of Paris (1783), solely between GB and US in America.
(b) Over the six-weeks discussion, repeated reference to an RfC "consensus" without any link to the outcome is unsettling. The "consensus" seems infinitely variable and expandable to refute every argument supporting the BRITISH Encyclopedia Britannica entry, "American Revolutionary War" 1775-1783, between belligerents are (1) US Congress & French alliance for US independence in America, & Indian allies, VERSUS (2) Britain & HRE German auxiliaries to suppress Thirteen Colony rebellion in America, & Indian allies.
2. Worldwide, the two premier scholarly references in the English language write articles reflecting the preponderance of mainstream scholarship on the American Revolutionary War.
3. In over eight weeks, there is NO link to a mystery “consensus RfC” to support any article wp:fringe, wp:error or wp:hoax, viz:
(1) March 1782, Parliament recommended no offensive action in America; (2) George III ANNOUNCED FOR: US independence and peace December 1782; (3) April 1783, Congress ACCEPTED BRITISH OFFER conceding the four US goals in a peace treaty; (4) CONCLUSIVE PEACE at Treaty of Paris September 1783 and US army & navy defunded & disbanded; (5) NOT wp:notable, diplomats exchange their governments' respective ratifications of previously entered into conclusive peace ratifications sent along by routine sail and courier to Paris by May 1784. It's a "non-event".
4. Undocumented wp:fringe, wp:error or wp:hoax is not "Wikipedia article consensus" nor RS. My 30 RS review four weeks ago here goes unanswered still. Of those put forward by editors to support ARW in Gibraltar and India, only ONE clearly does: Matthew Lockwood (2019).
ON THE OTHER HAND, Mackesy, an RS who is MISCONSTRUED as a "worldwide ARW" source, actually says, “This is not a history of the American War of Independence”, it is a history of British naval strategy in CONFLICTS OF THE SAME PERIOD worldwide, between Britain and the navies of (a) the US, and (b) France, and (c) Spain and (d) Dutch . . . a British naval historian’s distinction that is lost here among editors with personal attacks of NPOV American-centric bias, which is unsupported ad hominem and cumulatively over weeks, WP:BULLY.
Sincerely, TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 22:15, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
TVH has brought many sources to the table and has expounded at length why Spain and the Netherlands are not actual belligerents as were the French and Hessians. Though I support these edits, no consensus is needed to make edits that reflect well sourced and discussed topics. Moreover, there is no consensus to ignore this material and block it from the article. Besides, there is a general and clear consensus to remedy this hitherto acutely British-centric article. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:10, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

wp:HOAX, part I

INSERT: I've attempted to remove personal attacks against XavierGreen in this previous posting. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:23, 18 June 2020 (UTC) Per "XavierGreen" post above at 15:04, 12 June 2020: [INSERT revision to remove personal attack], XG said US could not make peace with GB until FR & SP let it. - - Well, NOT.

[INSERT revision to remove personal attack], The two principle scholarly references in the English language worldwide do not include Dutch, Spanish or French wars with Britain elsewhere at different times in different places from the US in America AT ALL in their coverage of the "American Revolutionary War (1775-1783)", see (1) Encyclopaedia Britannica, and (2) Routledge Publishers, Dictionary of War 1999, “American Revolution (1775-83)”. .

As Mark G. Spencer observed in his Lockwood review at Modern History, For all the book's story-telling strengths positing unintended consequences coincident to the times, “Lockwood risks creating links rather than uncovering them.” TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:47, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I have never written a book of any kind, and the only published work I have any sort of credit in is on the subject of criminal law which has literally nothing to do with this article. I have cited a multitude of different works above, making asinine baseless allegations that I am somehow promoting a particular author or a sock puppet is quite plainly disruptive behavior.XavierGreen (talk) 13:55, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
@XavierGreen, A D Monroe III, and Gwillhickers: I withdraw my suggestion for an administrator to look into any XavierGreen connection to Lockwood, who likewise "may be creating links rather then uncovering them" as the reviewer says.
Nevertheless, despite his last post here, as a point of personal privilege, I would like to observe rather more dispassionately, that (1) I have not found any XG reference to an RS at all in six weeks, using only the term, "all RS". (2) In six weeks XG HAS NOT found a link to the RfC at this ARW Talk to overturn my BRITISH scholarly references linked at Britannica and Routledge defining the ARW as between GB & allies v. US & allies, 1775-1783 in America, and them alone. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:23, 18 June 2020 (UTC)