Talk:Aquatic ape hypothesis/Archive 6

Removal of all illustrations

I had a problem with one of the illustrations here as detailed in the previous section, but a bunch of people have descended on it and removed all of them without discussion. The last says 'one edit is not edit warring and this is the last stable version so per WP:BRD this is the one we go with while talk page discussion commences' but it is obvious that is not so if one looks at the history pager, most of those illustrations have been there and never removed in the last few months at least before today. Perhaps some of these people could say why they have suddenly turned up? And what is the reasoning for removing all illustrations? Dmcq (talk) 20:46, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

It's at ANI. Also, the three tags just added all mention discussion. It would help if the editor adding those tags actually discussed their objections to specific content. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:14, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, that explains it. I wish one of them at least had contributed to the discussion here. Dmcq (talk) 22:09, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I've argued for removal (of some images) at ANI. I think a few images - perhaps the first two - could be argued to be a positive, but the rest seem pointless. Black Kite (talk) 11:49, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't object overly to cutting out the more obvious ones. I think the baby in the water one is a good illustration for the overall topic. Dmcq (talk) 12:56, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, the baby one is fine, and I'd drop the gorilla one down to the "hypothesis" section (where it also illustrates bipedalism). I can't see any point in the others. The horse, deer, shower and swimming ones are simply ridiculous. Black Kite (talk) 14:20, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Dmcq: I've removed all images before, but persistent advocates keep adding them back. As several others have pointed out, at least the majority of these "illustrations" are unecyclopedic. As Engelbrecht himself pointed out on ANI, most of them are used to "illustrate" various arguments and could be used in a lot of articles to "make a point". (Here is an example from The Guardian: Aquatic apes are the stuff of creationism, not evolution (Don't miss the elephant joke at the end.)) None of them addequately explain AAH. For this reason, neither the baby nor the gorilla belong here. There are illustrations online that specifically illustrates AAH. Get one or wait for one.

Per WP:LEADIMAGE: "Lead images should be images that are natural and appropriate visual representations of the topic; they not only should be illustrating the topic specifically, but should also be the type of image that is used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works, [...]"

--Fama Clamosa (talk) 16:45, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

That others persist in putting in images and you persist in removing them is evidence of slow edit warring, nothing else. So some people agree with you and others disagree with you, that shows very little of use. Pointed out is simply emphasising your side. I know the hypothesis is not mainline, it is hardly creationism but even it it were I fail to see the relevance. As to a lead image the article you pointed to at the Guardian shows exactly that type image, so fulfills your requirement that the lead image be representative of the type used not thhat that is required, it is simply a guideline. Dmcq (talk) 16:59, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Dmcq: It's not "that type of image", it's the same image, used in the same "illustrative" purpose. Did you even try to see the irony in the Guardian? Are you saying Wikipedia guidelines don't apply to this article? --Fama Clamosa (talk) 23:19, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

So what's the problem if they though it was okay as an illustration? Does the irony content mean you can use the article to support whatever you like but it can't be used for anything you don't like? And if you're quoting guidelines then perhaps you could point to the particular sections of them. Were you referring to me saying that it was a guideline rather than a policy? I already said it satisfied the guideline. The business about being a guideline is that it gives advice on best practice, it does not imply that anything deviating in the slightest must be removed. As WP:POLICY says it should be treated with commonsense. Dmcq (talk) 23:37, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Also note that Fama feels the need to ridicule AAH by pointing to an absurd blog analogy about elephants with yellow feet (elephants which are old semiaquatics too, by the way). Isn't that typical behavior among creationists haranguing evolution? --CEngelbrecht (talk) 21:09, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

You didn't say anything pertinent to improving the article. Attacking other editors got you at ANI just recently and didn't help your case. Please just discuss the subject and not the editor. Dmcq (talk) 22:40, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Unless a guy like me is attacked as an editor, right? Because I dare to have read the sources to this idea, instead of watching some mockumentary about mermaids on Animal Planet and go, "Yep, that's what that idea is about." Because I've personally concluded, that AAH is not unreasonable thinking, now that we all "know" that it's wrong for all eternity. Then I've just asked for the urine, haven't I, you hypocrite?

And the hypocrisy is even deeper with the random arguments for getting rid of illustrations here. One user argues, that a generalized image of the various AAH hypothesis arguments is unnecessary, because the listed points are only partially covered in the body text. Another says, that any images are unnecessary, because the points are described in the body text. Are pictures supposed to illustrate something key from the body text, or something not represented in it? I hear both, all of a sudden.

But we're not talking about use of illustrations here. Those images were removed, because the user in question becamse uncomfortable being presented with thousand-words images of an idea, they've been accustomed to laugh at for all the wrong sociological reasons. Reasons which is comparable to the ones that plagued great thinkers like Copernicus and Galileo, and to an extent still Darwin. Even if AAH is wrong, they don't even want it to be presented as the reasonable concept it is. 'Cause the human ape don't want to know what it is. And in that, they are no different in psychology than the creationists and ID'ers plaguing the articles on evolution.

'Cause this stripping of all imagery is just another typical mistreatment of this article. Over these last few years I've seen the article's body text reduced to nothing, where the only focus winded up being "this idea is nuts, go back to sleep". Close to all description of the individual arguments deleted, where it was nothing of an encyclopedic entry. A typical non-POV presentation based from pure negative bias. And I've seen continous harassment against users adding neutral wordings against this negative bias, again on par with the methods of creationists and ID'ers against evolution describing users. I've seen nothing but a continous pressure for censorship. For some odd pshychological reason, a certain group just don't want this idea to be out in the open. This is the general type of conduct, this fringe idea brings out in not the support, but the opposition. All this not about how to use images. This is about a continous vandalising behavior, that only seeks to kill a non-POV presentation of a divisive idea. Because a range of people just don't "like" it.

I see all this as a big threat to scientific thought and the well-intended purpose of Wikipedia. Enough is enough. If AAH is so bloody wrong, a neutral presentation would support that anyway. But that is not good enough, is it? (Partially copied from "ANI") --CEngelbrecht (talk) 23:44, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

The village pump is probably the right place for discussions like that. Dmcq (talk) 00:00, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

And in the meantime get rid of those blasted pictures, right? And tomorrow all body text describing the actual hypothesis, right?

Sorry, I have good cause not to assume good faith on this particular idea. For some reason of human hysteria, it is refused a fair break. It's all I have ever seen. We haven't evolved since Copernicus. --CEngelbrecht (talk) 00:37, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

How about the gorilla picture in the lead then if there is some unspecified thing wrong with the baby one. It is rather like one I saw on another discussion about the topic [2]. Or is it unacceptable to use something similar to that article too because of some unspecified guidance? Dmcq (talk) 23:57, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

There isn't anything wrong with any of the pictures included. Except that they don't support the general misconception, that the aquatic ape hypothesis is a laghuable idea. I'm very sorry, but a balanced non-POV, neither positive or negative biased version using adequate, sourced body text and illustrations just can't support that foolish custom thinking. Even if the damn thing should be wrong and humans have never been bathing apes. --CEngelbrecht (talk) 00:12, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I have some sympathy for your frustration, they way the fringe theory noticeboard people chopped out large sections was against the idea and spirit of Wikipedia to properly describe notable topics and overall I think that noticeboard is dysfunctional. However the text has been fixed and the question here is about the pictures. You need to address the problem at hand on this talk page, it is not the place for general complaints. Have you got reasoned arguments for particular pictures? Dmcq (talk) 08:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

It's extremely ridiculous to see all the pictures got removed. I would say that this article had more images than an average Wikipedia article, but we should discuss which to be removed and which to be retained, not swept all out at once, and protect the page as if this is the final decision.

The presence of those images, although raised some debate in the past, were agreed by most editors despite their standpoint on the hypothesis. Their presence is a decision agreed by a group of diverse editors, not to be overturned by someone who walk by and don't like all the stuff.

And come on, someone read a funny article in the Guardian and think they understand the topic? Should someone at least have a basic understanding on the topic before editing anything in Wikipedia?

I will remove my similar diagram in Endurance running hypothesis until further resolution on this matter. I don't know if Wikipedia is not the place of such kind of illustration.

Dmcq: May you advice which is the right place to discuss this image-removing incident? Seems ANI is discussing something else. Chakazul (talk) 04:17, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

It does seem to me that there was an admission above someone was engaged in a long running edit war to remove images from the article and I see no good reasons for that. The best you can do if you want a long term solution is I believe to set up a WP:RfC for guidance on if and how many or what type images are acceptable in the article. Dmcq (talk) 09:55, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Dmcq, I'll try. It seems the one(s) who did the mass deletion don't even bother to further discuss here. Chakazul (talk) 11:28, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

In the spirit of bold editing, I have reinstated a number of the pictures which were removed, leaving out those which were a) too "rigid" (e.g. pictorial diagram); b) superfluous (bathing); c) not particularly compelling/interesting. Hope that's ok - will be happy to discuss further. Alfietucker (talk) 22:00, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

The horse and the shellfish ones are clearly superfluous as well, IMO. We don't need a photograph to know what they look like, surely? Black Kite (talk) 22:45, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I'd have thought the horse for instance should be sweating if it is illustrating the point about horses sweating and the larynx of the deer isn't particularly obvious. At least the shellfish are shown in the context of being eaten as a meal. Dmcq (talk) 23:35, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I see the point you are both making. Apologies - I was thinking with my magazine editor's hat on, so to speak: i.e. pictures to draw readers to specific parts of the text, rather than directly illustrating the points being made. I won't object if someone else removes them, but it would be good to have at least a picture of a sweating horse as a replacement. Alfietucker (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Suggested aquatic adaptations in human (click to enlarge). Note that the points listed are not facts, but hypothetical claims that require further scientific investigations to verify their accuracy, falsifiability, and relevance to human evolution.

Good to see the images are back. I agree with the current criteria of selecting images. How about the summary diagram I put here before? Is such kind of diagram beneficial to the readers while not violating NPOV and RS, or, can it be improved in some way before putting here? Some examples: File:Geological_time_spiral.png, File:Map-of-human-migrations.jpg. Of course these 2 examples are already enjoying scientific support (unlike AAH), but I'd like to demonstrate the advantage of summarizing a complicated idea. Chakazul (talk) 09:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

More than that, they are based on illustrations already existing in reliable sources. I can't say I'm keen on the first one even though it was some image of the day, but the second shows things that are hard to illustrate properly in text and it doesn't contain all sorts of information that can be better done in the text. Dmcq (talk) 10:32, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Specific images that deal with the aquatice ape hypothesis can be included. However, every single image included in this article was original research of the plainest sort. I removed the lot of them. Please find good images for the article. Images of the main proponents, for example. Images relating to human evolution. However, images of sea food, divers, and horses are not appropriate. jps (talk) 19:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

If the caption for the baby underwater had said "Newborns float and hold their breath instinctively when submerged. This evidence of one of many aquatic adaptations supports the aquatic ape hypothesis." then you might have a case. The fact is, the caption read, "Newborns float and hold their breath instinctively when submerged. This is argued to be one of many aquatic adaptations by proponents of the aquatic ape hypothesis", which is indeed what proponents of AAH say; I cannot see how such a caption with that picture breaches WP:OR. Or, to put it another way (to consider another article on a fringe theory), if your interpretation of WP:OR was to stand, then the article Unidentified flying object wouldn't have any pictures whatsoever of alleged UFOs. Alfietucker (talk) 20:13, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The image is of a swimming baby. It is original research to connect it to anything else. Let's not play WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS games. The UFO article is also a mess, but we should discuss it there, not here. jps (talk) 20:27, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

This seems to me a misreading of the policy - it would be original research if no other published source had made such an illustration. Clearly it has already been done, on several occasions. Furthermore, as has already been pointed out, the caption makes quite clear that this is an inference drawn by AAH proponents, and is not presented as fact. Are we really so nervous that some simple soul is going to misunderstand the illustration (placed there to give readers a quick "handle" on the AAH argument - not to mendaciously "convert" to the cause!)? I've seen your reply on my Talk Page, btw, and may be able to dig up such an illustration (many moons ago now I had a book on the theory, which is why I've got a layman's interest in this article). Alfietucker (talk) 20:36, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The issue is broadly related to soapboxing in the sense that I think the images on this page were being used to jazz up the content to make it look casually more like a plain scientific article, but this is incidental to my WP:OR complaint. The issue is that this is a synthesis of an image taken for a completely different purpose. If every AAH book and paper used images of swimming babies, you would have a point. We could caption it with, "Most papers written about AAH include images of swimming babies" or something to that effect, though it would, obviously, be better to get our hands on actual images used by the proponents rather than attaching unrelated images to a WP:FRINGE page. That said, can you get us that illustration? If it was actually form a book on the theory, we could include it as a primary source. That would be a great addition and rather uncontroversial (as long as the fair use rationale could be applied). jps (talk) 20:45, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)An illustration does not have to be exact - it just has to illustrate the topic in a pertinent way. Hardy(1960) quite clearly talks about this, as part of his hypothesis, thus an image illustrating this part is not WP:OR. --Kim D. Petersen 20:37, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I really don't see where Hardy discusses that images of swimming babies are somehow topical. What are we to make of the adult in the picture? Does the support of the adult show some alternative hypothesis might be better? I'm not sure how one can say this particular image is straightforwardly pertinent from a plain reading of Hardy. jps (talk) 20:46, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

It has to be pertinent but does not have to be exact. --Kim D. Petersen 20:51, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I think with WP:FRINGE topics, exactness is not only preferable, it is absolutely required because of the particular dangers with original research. We're talking about a subject that has received almost zero serious academic treatment. It therefore needs to hew closely to the actual sources lest we even inadvertently stray into making novel points. jps (talk) 20:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

That is your personal opinion - not policy or even remotely supported by policy. MOS doesn't make such a distinction, nor does any other page. The image is quite clearly illustrative of one of Hardy(1960)'s original observations, that have later been expanded upon. --Kim D. Petersen 21:08, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I think both WP:FRINGE and WP:OR are largely in agreement with my approach, but there's always going to be disagreements about interpretation of policy which is, frankly, a bit of a laugh at this website where policy is meant to be descriptive rather than proscriptive and editorial decisions turn on the personal opinions of the website users. I simply disagree that the image is "clearly" illustrative. I suppose we could take this to WP:NORN to get other opinions. jps (talk) 21:15, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I can't see any usage in taking it to WP:NORN, since a search on that board for similar situations return a result that is contrary to your stated views. But if you believe that you will get another result, then go ahead. I would like to point out to you that WP:OI somewhat covers this situation with the text: Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy. Image captions are subject to this policy no less than statements in the body of the article. Since this image does not illustrate or introduce any ideas or arguments that are not already in the article and its references - i fail to see your problem. --Kim D. Petersen 21:38, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

"so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy". Kim, I think you've just hit the nail on the head. Unless jps is about to take this to WP:NORN, then I see no reason not to reinstate a number of images - including the underwater baby - on that basis. Alfietucker (talk) 21:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

This is not a resolution if there are editors advocating to reinstate original research images. Therefore WP:NORN#Images at Aquatic Ape Hypothesis. jps (talk) 23:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Children so often drown that it is a serious public safety concern.

Incidentally, a pointy violation would be to include the image to the right in the article. Is there any reason not to if we include a picture of a swimming baby? jps (talk) 23:56, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

That image does not illustrate any point in the text and so fails WP:OI. I do wish the images had been discussed one at a time rather than this blanket removal. There were illustrations that pointed out faults in the hypothesis as well as ones illustrating points of the hypothesis. Dmcq (talk) 00:33, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, there are a number of sources in the article that indicate that the propensity for human drowning is a direct contradiction of the hypothesis. For example, it is found in The Aquatic Ape: Fact or Fiction? jps (talk) 00:53, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Seal pups, it seems, have a greater propensity for drowning. It seems they are not as ready to swim as are babies. Yet no one denies that seals have an aquatic life. Sure, that's not the whole story, but neither is "the propensity for human drowning". Alfietucker (talk) 10:42, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Umm, you seriously do not have reliable sources for what you are saying, and your sources don't even support your synthesis. The fact that children drown easily is evidence against this fringe hypothesis that essentially no one believes except for rank amateurs. I think if we have the baby, we ought to have the drowning notice. I notice that you didn't include a citation for your claim in the image. If none can be found, it will be removed. jps (talk) 12:43, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Clearly you didn't take on board my caveat "that's not the whole story". But did you take on board the Geographic info about seal pups? Quote: "Pups are weaned in only 10 to 12 days, during which time the pups' masses double. After nursing, the mothers leave their pups and enter the ocean...Alone on the ice, the weaned pups convert their mothers' fatty milk into flesh and bone for the next couple of weeks and then begin dipping into the water and learning to eat on their own." (Emphasis added.) Earlier in the article, the point was made: "Without thick, solid ice expanses, seal babies drown or are crushed by broken-up chunks of ice." As for "rank amateurs", I'd hesitate to put David Attenborough in that category, who as I understand it rather gives credence to the hypothesis. Alfietucker (talk) 13:07, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

p.s. Just discovered that I spoiled the link to Attenborough's Radio 4 programmes on AAH. Now fixed. Alfietucker (talk) 20:25, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, when did David Attenborough publish a peer-reviewed article on this idea? I seem to have almost no ability to understand what your point is with respect to seals and humans. Are you saying that humans are less likely to drown than seals? Because I see no sources for that contention, and it is rather irrelevant to the point that humans drown (that seals do it too is rather beside the point). jps (talk) 13:11, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

My point - besides pointing out that aquatic animals are known to drown - is to try to point out that your objections too often appear to be careless generalisations (e.g. "The fact that children drown easily is evidence against this fringe hypothesis that essentially no one believes except for rank amateurs") rather than reasonable attempts to address the issues. I would gently suggest that taking the latter course would be a more constructive way of proceeding. Alfietucker (talk) 13:22, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

The only careless overgeneralization I see here is your contention that based on a report that seal pups have drown therefore seal pups have a "greater propensity for drowning" than human babies. jps (talk) 13:33, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

You don't give due weight to where I say "it seems" (alas, tone is very difficult to convey in text). The serious point, as I thought I made clear, is that to claim that human babies drowning is evidence they can't be aquatic (or at least, to quote you, "The fact that children drown easily is evidence against this fringe hypothesis") is nonsense - or at the very least inconsistent in itself - unless one accepts that premise for seal pups as well. There are, I am sure, more compelling objections to the hypothesis, but I submit drowning by accident is not one of them. Of course, if you can find a reputable paper (as opposed to a partisan blog) to say to the contrary, then you have at least something that may be cited. Alfietucker (talk) 13:55, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

The thing that matters is the sources. We don't have sources going on about babies drowning instead of automatically holding their breath that I'm aware of so all this just comes under WP:OR and in particular WP:SYNTH. I have found the bit about drowning instead of swimming as being against AAH but I don't see anything in the article saying AAH supports the idea that babies can be left on their own to swim. Dmcq (talk) 13:59, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

By the way are we very sure what is shown there is safe? I haven't heard of any problems this way but I know that stupidity has no lower (upper?) limit and people might try it out. Dmcq (talk) 14:30, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

At the risk of straying off-topic, here - for instance - is information from a UK organisation which holds swimming classes for babies. There has also been film of babies swimming underwater including The Blue Lagoon (1980 film), so you might say there have been plenty of high profile examples set to the public already. Alfietucker (talk) 15:39, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good enough to me. Dmcq (talk) 19:10, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually not only children, but all human beings are prone to drowning, but this is not against AAH because all great ape species have similarly lost the instinctive swimming ability. See Bender & Bender (2013) "Swimming and Diving Behavior in Apes". The fact that we can learn swimming/diving much better than our ape relatives is an argument used to support AAH.

Although AAH is a fringe theory, I aware that most counter-arguments are not as powerful as some may think, they mostly came from non-RS (e.g. personal websites, blog posts) and some can be easily refuted with RS. (A bit off-topic now but I've the urge to clarify something) Chakazul (talk) 17:19, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Illustrations of finger and feet wrinkling

I have added images to illustrate this affect as it is entirely supportive of evolutionary pressure applied in a wet environment.Nature Lumos3 (talk) 21:43, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

This seems okay to me, though there is no study which says that wrinkled toes grip better than non-wrinkled toes, so I removed that claim. It probably ought to be removed from the article too unless there has been independent sources which have discussed it. Are there? jps (talk) 23:22, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

There is fairly robust support for that claim here Royal Society Biology Letters - Water-induced finger wrinkles improve handling of wet objects. Lumos3 (talk) 00:52, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

That's a bit synthetic. Are there any third-party independent sources which connect this to the AAH? jps (talk) 00:56, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Kyriacos Kareklas, Daniel Nettle and Tom V. Smulders⇓

I've removed one of the images, we don't need a photo gallery on it. Dmcq (talk) 00:14, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

It seems finger wrinkling is not as advantageous as once thought, as a 2014 study failed to replicate the results, Finger#Fingertip_wrinkling_in_water has a better coverage.

I didn't aware of any source claimed that finger wrinkling as an argument for AAH, so it may be WP:SYNTH. Chakazul (talk) 17:30, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

The place indicated has a reference showing the link to AAH and also a link to a study showing the effect couldn't be reproduced more recently. Both could be put in the article. Dmcq (talk) 22:22, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Removal of Proposals section

Given that this edit removed a major chunk of the article, it should be discussed here first. Pinging Fama Clamosa. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:00, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I think i support the deletion. Wikipedia should not be "presenting the case" for the fringe theory. Per WP:PSCI "Thus, when talking about pseudoscientific topics, we should not describe these two opposing viewpoints as being equal to each other. While pseudoscience may in some cases be significant to an article, it should not obfuscate the description of the mainstream views of the scientific community. Any inclusion of pseudoscientific views should not give them undue weight. The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such. An explanation of how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories should be prominently included. " I am pretty sure the content as it now exists/was restored after the deletion does not follow the Policy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:25, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

(I added a flag to the section header to correspond to a tag on the article content) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

The section could be trimmed perhaps but not cut out altogether. The article should explain why proponents of the theory feel it is valid while clearly saying mainstream science does not accept these justifications. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:47, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a rationalists version of Conservapedia where anything a bit outré is banned. This is an encyclopaedia where what is out there is described. The requirement is that we clearly indicate its fringe status and show the arguments against it properly. There is no requirement to chop things out just because we can't be bothered to edit in the things we should do properly. Dmcq (talk) 22:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

then propose a proper presentation that shows the claims in the appropriate light that they are held by mainstream academics. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:26, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean by 'then' there? Otherwise what? How about being more specific in what you are complaining about, at the moment it is just 'I don't like that'. Is it that you want the objections and the proposals to be merged together rather than separated? That was tried and the article became unreadable. Dmcq (talk) 08:21, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

you suggested that the problems the section has with meeting policy NPOV can be addressed by selective editing rather than removal and so I am asking you to provide examples of how editing can bring the content into compliance. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:37, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

As you feel there are NPOV issues, it will be helpful, as Dmcq suggests, if you pointed out specific text that needs to be worked on and why. For example, what issues do you see with "Bipedalism". --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:49, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I have problems as I stated with the absurd theories held only be a few fringies not being presented as they should be according to our polices WP:PSCI: as completely out of the mainstream, wingnut ideas. For fringe topics, we do not present the Pro and the Con WP:VALID. We clearly identify them as fringe. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:33, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

What PSCI says is "The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such. An explanation of how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories should be prominently included." This article very clearly and at length says the hypothesis is not mainline and describes how the views have been received. The policy is satisfied. Deleting well sourced bits of articles because you are still unsatisfied about the weight is not supported by any policy and is against the basic directive to make an encyclopaedia. It would not be a reference work which described the aquatic ape hypothesis if it did not describe what the hypothesis proposed. Dmcq (talk) 13:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Hypothesis

Suggestion, see above (collapsed as it is very long)

Anthropological consensus on human evolution Family tree showing the extant hominoids: humans (genus Homo), chimpanzees and bonobos (genus Pan), gorillas (genus Gorilla), orangutans (genus Pongo), and gibbons (four genera of the family Hylobatidae: Hylobates, Hoolock, Nomascus, and Symphalangus). All except gibbons are hominids. Great Rift Valley in East Africa, key to human evolution. File:Paranthropus on Plains art.jpg A classic depiction of the consensus on the earliest evolution of hominins in East Africa, here Paranthropus. See also: Human evolution Modern humans, Homo sapiens, developed from earlier forms found as fossils at various locations around the world, seeing an early concentration in East Africa. Other remnants from early humans such as tools, foods, dwellings, etc., have also been detected. Combined, these finds present a partial image of the process, that developed the species Homo sapiens. From the collective work of anthropology, and in later years also genetics, established consensus states, that humans belong in the biological tribe Hominini, this in the family of Hominidae (the great apes), this in the order of primates, this in the class of mammals. Humans are closely related to, in order of closest kinship, the great ape generachimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and further distant the family of gibbons. Hominini includes the subtribe Australopithecina with the genera Sahelanthropus, Orrorin, Ardipithecus, Paranthropus, Australopithecines; and the subtribe Hominina, encompassing the genus Homo, some of its species being Homo habilis, Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, the Neanderthals and modern humans, the latter being the only extant species. There is still some uncertainty about the interrelation between the known Hominin fossils; new finds can still drastically rewrite the human family tree, most recently with Sahelanthropus. Contemporary anthropology estimates, that the direct ancestors of modern humans split from a common ancestor to chimpanzees somewhere between 4 and 8 million years ago in Africa; the fossil ape Sahelanthropus tchadensis which lived some 7 million years ago in Chad is considered the earliest possible homininin. Since the breakthrough of Darwin and Wallace's theory of evolution in the 19th century, it has been heavily debated why humans have features that distinguish them from their nearest evolutionary relatives; most notably by being near-furless, employing upright bipedal stance on their hind limbs, and having the perhaps most complex brain in the animal kingdom. A wide range of difficult to corroborate hypotheses have been presented as to the evolutionary background of the unique features of modern humans; for human bipedalism e.g. altered carrying behavior, improved energy efficiency, improved thermal regulation, altered social behavior and increased dominance behavior. The human split from the lineage of the chimpanzees is linked to the geological formation of the East African mountain range Great Rift Valley that extends from Djibouti to Mozambique. In this region are found many of the key fossils of the earliest hominins, leaving it to be considered the cradle of humanity. The most widely considered hypothesis is that woodland dwelling, brachiating hominoids, specifically on the eastern side of the mountain range, gradually lost their habitat to more open areas, for instance grasslands, and that this and other changes forced these hominoids to develop the shapes, that gradually resulted in modern humans. In recent decades, the traditional image of human origin having taken place in grasslands (e.g. the African savannah) has been challenged, since particularly the oldest homininin fossils are found alongside fossilized fauna and flora from traditional woodland habitats, rather than from grasslands, e.g. the some 4.4 million year old fossil Ardi, an Ardipithecus ramidus. The basis of AAH AAH argues, that many features that distinguish humans from their nearest evolutionary relatives emerged because the ancestors of humans underwent a period adapting to a semiaquatic existence, arguing convergent evolution with other aquatic and semiaquatic, chiefly mammal, species. It is traditionally argued, that semiaquatic hominins later returned to a more terrestrial life before becoming fully aquatic, as e.g. whales and dolphins. Variations amongst AAH proponents suggest these proto-humans to have spent time either wading, swimming or diving on the shores of fresh, brackish, alcalic or saline waters, or different such habitats at different time frames, while feeding on littoral resources. Key arguments have been developed and presented by Elaine Morgan since 1972, these based on the original suggestion of Alister Hardy. In later years, other contributors have further developed the aquatic ideas, some of which differ heavily from the original "aquatic ape" of Hardy et Morgan. The term waterside hypotheses of human evolution has been coined by AAH-proponent Algis Kuliukas to collectively represent this diversity, of which AAH is only one such hypothesis. Most traits perceived as aquatic are physiological and biochemical, while few are behavioral (ethological). The time frame for the origin og possible termination of such an aquatic existence also differs between proponents, or though the same time frame as anthropological consensus is generally followed. In most cases, this aquaticism is perceived as having been instigated by selective pressure around the split of the last common ancestor between humans and chimpanzees. The Belgian physician Marc Verhaegen has presented a unique variation of AAH, where semiaquatic traits is argued to be evident even before the split between humans and chimpanzees, this in Dryopithecus-like apes between 15 to 7 million years ago, which at that time had migrated from rain forests in Africa to then tropical rainforests around the Tethys Sea, the Mediterranean and across Southern Asia. At the end of this warmer period, the ancestors of orangutans is said to have migrated into South East Asia, while the ancestors of humans, chimps and gorillas migrated back into Africa, evolving into their present forms; chimps and gorillas becoming more land locked, while humans developed aquatic traits. Verhaegen also argues, that human aquaticism reached its peak with Homo erectus some 2-1 million years ago, this observed by e.g. thickened erectus bones, labeled pachyosteosclerosis, which is argued as having convergence during e.g. whale evolution from land to aquatic forms. Verhaegen further argues, that human aquaticism originally developed in tropical mangrove or seasonally flooded woodland, this based on the flora and fauna found alongside the earliest hominin fossils, a phenomenon he labels aquarborealism. The argued degree of human aquaticism varies amongst proponents, however the vast majority argues a semiaquatic ape on par with e.g. hippos and sea otters. Very few have argued a fully aquatic stage on par with e.g. whales or pinnipeds, and this is rejected by the majority, including Morgan. Some pseudoscientific and cryptozoologic speculations have made use of parts of the AAH argumentation, e.g. the claimed existence of mermaids, but this is also rejected by proponents, including Morgan. While most proto-human fossil sites are associated with wet conditions upon the death of the hominins, this is not seen as unequivocal evidence for the AAH, since being buried in waterside sediment is one of the rare situations in which fossilization is likely to occur (labeled preservation bias); paleontologists are aware of this preservation bias and expect fossils to be located at such sediments. Physiological and biochemical claims Bipedalism is argued as an adaptation to wading in shallow waters. Bipedalism: The habitual, upright bipedalism of extant humans is argued as an adaptation to wading along shallow coastlines. Proponents of AAH argues, that bipedalism offers numerous advantages in water, including permitting deeper wading, improved balance, reduced strain on the back, hips and knees as well as improved blood circulation. Proponents point towards a similar upright bipedal stride employed by a wide range of ape and monkey species, when wading in shallow waters, e.g. chimps, gorillas, orangutans, baboons, macaques, etc. Fossilized remains indicate, that as early as Toumaï (a Sahelanthropus tchadensis), living 7 million years ago alongside Lake Megachad, human ancestors were bipedal. Proponents of AAH suggest that bipedalism is disadvantageous when comparing humans to medium-sized, terrestrial quadrupeds, and the fossil record shows that the evolution of humans from ape ancestors didn't include a period of quadrupedal locomotion. Instead, human transitional evolution features mainly brachiation, suspension and climbing as the primary method of transportation, with a gradual increase in bipedal locomotion over time. Critics argue, that bipedialism also provides many advantages on land, particularly lower energy expenditure and the ability of long-distance running, which humans is suggested as being better at than most terrestrial mammals. In addition, the elongated lower limbs of humans, which is explained by AAH proponents as improving swimming speeds, appears only after the evolution of the genus Homo and biomechanical analysis argues, that humans are poor swimmers, and that pre-human apes would face similar problems. There is no single accepted explanation for human bipedalism, other suggested models are freeing the hands for tool use, carrying of infants, feeding adaptations, improved energy expenditure or some combination of these, with considerable diversity in pre-human skeletal adaptations that would assist in bipedalism. Loss of fur in humans is argued to be convergent with aquatic and semiaquatic mammals. The insulating layer of fat in the human skin (shown here as yellow beads) is perceived as a primitive layer of blubber. Hairlessness and subcutaneous fat: Morgan claims that the near-hairless skin of humans, unique among all simians and the majority of mammals, is comparable to adaptations in aquatic mammals, apart from whales, pinnipeds and sirenia also semiaquatic hippos, and land-dwelling mammals with aquatic ancestors, such as elephants and rhinos. Morgan has furthered Hardy's original observation, that what body hair humans do have follows the flow of water over the body. Morgan also argues, that the human insulating layer of fat beneath the dermis is not present in the other great apes, and can be perceived as a primitive form of blubber. Critics argue, that humans vary strongly in the amount and distribution of body hair and that comparably sized mammals adapted to semiaquatic lifestyles just as often as not have dense, insulating fur, e.g. otters, or large, barrel-shaped bodies that retain heat well in water, e.g. hippos. Though a variety of explanations have been proposed for human hairlessness, the best-supported theory involves improved cooling through perspiration; while fur helps cool inactive animals, hairless skin that sweats vigorously is argued as being much better at cooling humans who generate body heat through activity. Langdon, in his 1997 critique of AAH, stated that the streamlining features attributed to hair follicle distribution and direction would be more reasonably achieved through changes in the shape of the skeleton and soft tissues. The inherent human diving ability far exceeds all other simians. Descended larynx, breath control and speech: The human larynx is situated in the throat rather than the nasal cavity, a feature shared by some aquatic animals who use it to close off the trachea while diving and facilitates taking large breaths of air upon surfacing. Humans also have a considerable amount of control over their breathing, which is an involuntary reflex for most terrestrial mammals. In humans, the descended larynx and increased breath control allows for habitual verbalism, such as complex speech, music, etc. In a controversial claim, Morgan suggests that the use of speech has possible precendents in other aquatic mammals, most notably whales and seals. Humans possess a strong diving reflex, allowing them, with exposure, to hold its breath for minutes at a time and dive long distances under water as well as to great depths, as much as to 50 meters depth unassisted by diving equipment, etc. This makes humans by far the best diver among all simians, seeing a rare parallel in the semiaquatic proboscis monkey from Indonesia, having been observed diving untill 20 meters. After brief water exposure of the body, the humans spleen contracts to spew a reserve of red blood cells into the cardiovascular system, allowing for longer breathholds, which Morgan argues has precedents in e.g. pinnipeds. Counter to these arguments, it has been pointed out, that a terrestrial mammal such as the red deer also have a permanently descended larynx, allowing it for extended verbalism, or though without conscious breath control. Breath control has also been argued as having been preceded by bipedalism, which frees up the muscles of the upper torso from locomotion and allows breathing independent of limb position. Both of these adaptations are thought to derive from improvements in vocalization and the evolution of the ability to speak. and the human larynx is shaped differently from that of aquatic animals, predisposing humans to choking. Shellfish is argued as a possible prehistoric source to the expansion of the human brain. Encephalization: The human encephalization quotient, an expression of the size and complexity of the brain of a species, compared to its physical size and other factors, is considered the highest in the animal kingdom, followed by whales, in particular dolphins, other great apes, elephants, certain spiecies of squid and some intelligent birds. It has been argued, that aquatic mammals more often develop large brains, and that particularly grassland mammals conversely stagnate in brain development. Morgan and other authors have suggested that the encephalization of the human brain was a response to increased consumption of seafood. A team lead by Canadian biochemist Stephen Cunnane has argued, that both developing and maintaining a healthy human brain is heavily dependent on a key series of micronutrients, most especially DHA (an Omega 3 fatty acid) and iodine-ions. Both these have proven extremely rare in purely terrestrial food groups (including cereals, fruits, vegetables and husbandry meats), but are conversely abundant in fish, shellfish and other sea foods, particular from saline and alcalic waters. Critics have argued, that considerable human encephalization began quite late in the development of the genus Homo, particularly with Homo erectus, long after the development of bipedalism. Bipedalism had occurred already in the australopithecines (4.2–3.9 mya) and Ardipithecus (4.4 mya), and perhaps as early as in the species Sahelanthropus tchadensis (approx. 7 mya). On the other hand increase in cranial capacity occurs quite late in the fossil record: Homo habilis (approx. 2 mya) for example, while fully bipedal, had a brain size within the range of modern day gorillas. Counter to this, Cunnane et al have argued, that a transition of semiaquatic Hominina-forms from fresh water habitats in the hinterland of Africa to more alcalic and saline habitats in Eastern Africa, e.g. in the then sea-flooded Afar-triangle in modern Ethiopia, could have supported the increase in human brain size through an increased access to e.g. DHA and iodine rich foods. It is argued, that molluscs, e.g. clams and oysters, as found along the shores of East Africa and in alcalic lakes along the Great Rift Valley has an optimal composition to support the extant human brain's nutritional needs. Proponents point to archaeological finds of shellfish kitchen middens as far back as in middle pleistocene some 164,000 years ago, during the earliest days of archaic Homo sapiens. Conversely, critics argue that landlocked humans without access to seafood develop normal brains and that these nutritional requirements can be met with a sepcific terrestrial diet. The encephalization of early Homo species is also argued as having been possibly driven by the consumption of hunted or scavenged animal brains supplying large amounts of scarce nutrients including docosahexaenoic acid. Reproduction: Morgan and others point to the increased adiposity of human infants, a marked difference from the offspring of other great apes. THis is suggested as an adaptation to increased insulation and buoyancy in water for human babies. It is pointed out, that vernix caseosa, a cheesy varnish coating the skin of newborn babies, apart from humans so far has only been observed on the cups of a few pinniped species, harbour seals. It is pointed out, that infant humans cannot walk upright, untill as much as one year of age, completely unknown among simian offspring, e.g. grassland-dwelling baboons. Morgan also claims, that newborns are adequately suited to swim along with their mother, while being able to hold their breath upwards of 45 seconds. Historically, women throughout the world have experienced a series of potentially life-threatening circumstances delivering above water, while Morgan and others, e.g. the French physician Michel Odent, point to recent decades of studies into baby swimming and water birth, which is argued to relieve stress and pain effects for both mother and child, with no corresponding observed drowning risks for the child. Morgan also points to unique features of both men and women's genitals, and the woman's protruding, fat-filled bosom as possible aquatic adaptations, with alleged convergence observed in sirenia. Presented criticism to these claims include the infant's increased risk of drowning if parting from its mother, coupled with observations of both young children as well as adults developing aquaphobia, while baby swimming and water birth are being rejected as fads. Ethological claims Habitat: Proponents of AAH argue, that the concentration of the contemporary world population of more than 7 billion people illustrates a trend for Homo sapiens to cling together in coastal regions alongside river valleys, lakes and seashores, in modern times particularly in India and China. Critics argue that this cannot disclose a similar trend in the eon long development of Homo, as modern human urbanization is said to be dependent on easier transit routes, this including rivers and seas. Conversely, Morgan argues, that humans have a similar preference for recreation sites along said coastal regions, e.g. tropical beaches. The bathing abe. Bathing behavior: Across the globe, humans employ hygiene bathing, this regardless of faction, ethnicity, gender, etc. This is argued as a behavioral relic of a semiaquatic stage. As an offshoot to the argument that other traditional terrestrial mammal groups may also be past semiaquatics, similar behavioral traits in both African and Asian elephants, which are also observed bathing regularly with its whole body submerged. Other claims Rare presented AAH-arguments points to the human tendency to watery psychic tears, and also sweat to cool down, where Morgan has withdrawn previous arguments, seeing that horses is a rare mammal species to also sweat profusely. It is occasionally argued, that humans compared to other apes have reduced olfaction, with claimed convergences observed in other aquatics, e.g. whales; that the protuding human nose would be adapted to keep splashes out of nasal cavities, arguing the semiaquatic proboscis monkey or semiaquatic tapirs as possible convergences; the tendency of partial to full baldness in men; the tendency for human obesity; and that human kidneys are better suited for excretion of salt than other apes. Such arguments are generally considered more speculative and is often heavily critized. Theoretical considerations Critics of AAH note, that the descended larynx is not exclusive to humans in terrestrials, but also found in red deers. Elaine Morgan has retracted an early AAH-argument of human sweating being an aquatic indicator after critics cited, that also horses sweat. The AAH has been criticized for containing multiple inconsistencies and lacking evidence from the fossil record to support its claims (Morgan, for instance, failed to discuss any fossils found after 1960 and much of her analysis is by comparing soft tissues between humans and aquatic species). It is also described as lacking parsimony, despite purporting to be a simple theory uniting many of the unique anatomical features of humans. Anthropologist John D. Hawks expresses the view that rather than explaining human traits simply and parsimoniously, it actually requires two explanations for each trait - first that proximity to water drove human evolution enough to significantly change the human phenotype and second that there was significant evolutionary pressure beyond mere phylogenetic inertia to maintain these traits (which would not be adaptive on dry land) and points out that exaptation is not an adequate reply. Hawks concludes by saying: In other words, the Aquatic Ape Theory explains all of these features, but it explains them all twice. Every one of the features encompassed by the theory still requires a reason for it to be maintained after hominids left the aquatic environment. Every one of these reasons probably would be sufficient to explain the evolution of the traits in the absence of the aquatic environment. This is more than unparsimonious. It leaves the Aquatic Ape Theory explaining nothing whatsoever about the evolution of the hominids. This is why professional anthropologists reject the theory, even if they haven't fully thought through the logic. Ellen White describes Morgan's work as failing to be empirical, not addressing evidence that contradicts the theory, relying on comparative anatomy rather than selection pressure, not predicting any new evidence and failing to address its own shortcomings. White stated that while the theory had the scientific characteristics of explanatory power and public debate, the only reason it has received any actual scholarly attention is due to its public appeal, ultimately concluding the AAH was unscientific. Others have similarly noted the AAH "is more an exercise in comparative anatomy than a theory supported by data." Though describing the hypothesis as plausible, Henry Gee went on to criticize it for being untestable, as most of the evolutionary adaptations described by Morgan would not have fossilized. Gee also stated that, while purely aquatic mammals such as whales show strong skeletal evidence of adaptation to water, humans and human fossils lack such adaptations (a comment made by others as well); that there are many hypothetical and equally plausible scenarios explaining the unique characteristics of human adaptation without involving an aquatic phase of evolution; and that proponents are basing arguments about past adaptations on present physiology, when humans are not significantly aquatic. There is ultimately only circumstantial evidence to suggest, and no solid evidence to support the AAH. ScienceBlogs author Greg Laden has described the AAH as a "human evolution theory of everything" that attempts to explain all anatomical and physiological features of humans and is correct in some areas only by chance. Laden also states that the AAH was proposed when knowledge of human evolutionary history was unclear, while more recent research has found that many human traits have emerged at different times over millions of years, rather than simultaneously due to a single evolutionary pressure. Evolutionary biologist Carsten Niemitz states that he believes the AAH as expressed by Morgan didn't fulfill the criteria of a theory or a hypothesis, merely "[listing] analogies of features of savannah type mammals on the one hand and of aquatic mammals and man on the other, asking the scientific community for explanations other than a common aquatic ancestor of extant man." Marc Verhaegen has also challenged the AAH as expressed by Morgan, believing the ancestors of apes as well as humans may have had their evolutionary history influenced by exposure to flooded forest environments, and that based on the hominin fossil record, regular part-time underwater foraging began in the Pleistocene rather than the early Pliocene as Morgan’s model proposes. In 2012 Langdon reviewed an e-book published by Bentham Science Publishers collecting 50 years of theorizing about the AAH. In his review, Langdon noted the lack of a single "aquatic ape hypothesis", instead there are multiple hypotheses with a common theme of evolutionary pressure due to dependence on an aquatic habitat. While original versions thought to explain an apparently substantial gap between humans and closely related common ancestors, more recent variants of these hypotheses have had to adjust to the fact that the gap was more apparent than real and the significant commonalities found between humans and other African apes. Three main strands of thought now exist regarding the AAH, varying according to when the theorized aquatic phase occurred - from the Middle Miocene to approximately three million years ago (Hardy's original model, which was based on a large gap in the fossil record that has since been filled in), from the Early Miocene when ancestral hominids were thought to wade in costal swamps and from which Homo species were thought to split off and adapt to swimming and diving (associated with the work of Marc Verhaegen), and from 200,000 years ago when exploitation of costal resources led humans out of Africa and resulted in the evolution of modern humans (associated with the work of Algis Kuliukas). Langdon notes the strong associations of humans with water, as well as the adaptability of the species to incredibly diverse ecological niches (including costal and wetland regions), both within and across lifetimes. Whether these associations define humans as "semiaquatic" or not "represents a fundamental point of departure between anthropologists and the [Aquatic Hypothesis] community." Langdon notes the three lines of evidence cited to support the AAH (comparative anatomy between humans and other semiaquatic species; hypothetical situations in which evolutionary pressure might have produced convergent evolution between humans and semiaquatic species; the ability for humans to perform various activities in the water) and concludes about these lines of evidence, These rhetorical strategies create long lists of claims, but until each hypothesis is independently established, it does not constitute evidence for an aquatic scenario. At best it shows consistency with a prior assumption. Evolutionary convergence – structural similarity – by itself is a metaphor for functional similarity. Metaphors are useful, but they demand that we examine points of resemblance closely in order to learn whether they are meaningful. Like metaphors, evolutionary convergences have their limits: eventually differences will emerge. Dolphins and humans are similar in the loss of body hair, relatively large brains, and complex vocal capacities; but these similarities do not make us dolphins. Nor is it clear which, if any of these similarities are related to water. Each trait must be investigated and resolved as a separate functional and evolutionary question. Unproven suppositions cannot serve as evidence for other hypotheses. Langdon criticizes the alleged "parsimony" of the AAH irrelevant as it is used to generate hypotheses about human adaptation – but does not prove them. The AAH is, like many Just So Stories in anthropology, ignored less because of prejudice than because of a lack of empirical evidence to support it, because it engages only with supporting evidence in the relevant scientific literature while ignoring the larger body of unsupporting evidence, and because its hypotheses are portrayed as "compatible with" more accepted hypotheses and thus unable to distinguish between or provide explicit evidence for the AAH. Langdon concludes his review: It is now incumbent upon both authors and critics to clarify the assumptions with which they are working and, where possible, to make empirically testable predictions. Similarly, the many gloating references in this book to the collapse of the Savannah Hypothesis should not suggest that all terrestrial models have been challenged. Possibly the time has come to bring the “paradigms” together; to step out of the “us vs. them” mentality held by both sides of this debate; and simply to recognize that dozens of speculative hypotheses for human evolution exist in the literature that may or may not discuss a relationship with water. The authors of the volume published a reply. ... End of new "Hypothesis" section draft ...

There are a lot less variations than the possible ones that happen during evolution. It is evident that authors appear+ conditioned to assume a one off scenario as is the rule in religious literature. Nature is a lot more complex, therefore we cannot and should not ever agree on a single scenario. Adaptations happen in various ways, do not follow a straight line and can as we do know reverse as well. Millions of years mean considering a lot of different conditions and looking at any creature that had access to the oceans also a lot of space! Very likely there are many variations in aquatic adaptation including the loss of fur as I have seen a few persons not in need of much protection other than their natural coat! Personally I can add one adaptation that was assumed to counter an aquatic past; this is the effect of long time immersion on our skin. Very little effect really but for our palms and the soles of our feet, not only becoming non-slip but also ribbed . The said effect just happens to be very handy for a creature trying to walk on slippery surfaces and handle even more slippery slimy items! You are not likely to drop a glass or a fish with soaked hands! Also I wonder how many other creatures suffer from varicose veins? As a financial argh-ument; I do suggest for the savanna likers to invest in a resort in a desert. Yes we are terrestrial but we are paying for it.

AQUATICUS  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.89.188.117 (talk) 23:08, 5 April 2014 (UTC) 

Malfunction fixed (I think)

Added signatures that were not added. The diff-compare showed the 4 tildes, but the automatic signature function failed to add the signature and date to the above edits. It was probably the broken reflink which has since been fixed. Without a closing /ref, everything after the opening, including the signature tildes, was considered part of a citation.

There was also an accessibility problem with the table of contents showing sections that did not appear and which could not be accessed when the box was collapsed. There is a special template that displays headers without appearing in the TOC which solved that problem.

Happy trails... 172.162.6.235 (talk) 14:06, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Adding claims

I wan't sure if adding directly to the page would have been right , seeing the contrasting views in this talk and the fact that the theory isn't widely accepted.

Anyway I think that , at least , two claims should be added: the presence of the mammalian diving reflex , which shows that in some past we must have been at least a bit acquatic, and the high presence of some diseases , for examples myopia "In myopia, or nearsightedness, the eyeball is too long. Myopia usually starts in puberty and is more prevalent in boys. Also whales, seals and penguins are nearsighted outside the water (37-38). This is an adaptation to the refractive power of water (1.33; air, 1.00). "

THE AQUATIC APE THEORY AND SOME COMMON DISEASES M. J. B. VERHAEGEN Medical Hypotheses 24: 293-300 (1987), [3]

(i've skimmed only to the parts that interested me and a deeper analysis should be done)

-ale — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.232.231.130 (talk) 14:04, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The mammalian diving reflex predates anything this theory is about, note the word 'mammalian'.

As to myopia there is evidence it is induced quite often by close work and in particular reading. People who work outside and aren't educated have lower rates of myopia. I hope if you stick in something about myopia as being related to underwater sight yoou also include the more prevalent theory about it as well. -Dmcq

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmcq (talk • contribs) 17:28, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I would like to see the above contribution added to the article. SmokeyTheCat 09:02, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Adding rebuttal by Vaneechoutte et al.

In the "theoretical considerations" chapter, Langdon rightfully receive considerable space presenting his critisism of the eBook: "Was Man more aquatic in the past? Fifty years after Alister Hardy,Waterside Hypotheses of Human Evolution"

The rebuttal by Vaneechoutte and coauthors is merely referenced, however, and not stated in the text. This seems unbalanced. Unless challenged here, I will integrate some of the rebuttals from this reference in the "Theoretical considerations" chapter in a point-by-point style within next week.

Yours, PhD Frank Helle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FrankHansen99 (talk • contribs) 10:04, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

consider the proposal challenged. unless an academic third party asserts the validity of the the "rebuttal", we are not here to present the FRINGE case, particularly in a point by point style. Please read WP:GEVAL and WP:OR .-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:14, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Wading Hypothesis of Bipedal Origins

The section which describes the wading hypothesis of bipedal origins needs improving in my opinion. It is currently rather vague in what it is supposed to be describing, it does not list the strongest arguments in favour of the idea and gives some pretty weak counter-arguments without any caveats.

They key observation in its favour is that all extant great apes that are quadrupedal on dry land will switch to bipedalism in waist deep water with 100% reliability. This will be bipedal locomotion, not just posture, it will be without any support of the forelimbs and will continue for as long as the conditions prevail. No other scenario will induce Pan, Gorilla or Pongo to move bipedally so easily or predictably and this is not true of any other mammalian taxon. Moving bipedally in waist deep water provides the simplest, most clear cut survival benefit imaginable - the animal can continue to breath.

The counter argument listed in the article that "bipedalism also gives many advantages on land, particularly lower energy expenditure and the ability of long-distance running—which humans do better than most terrestrial mammals" is weak. The energy efficiency only really works in flat, firm, vegetation-free substrates (e.g. on a dried out river bed or on a sandy beach right by the water's edge) and the ER hypothesis has a number of substantial problems (e.g. predation, how to replace water loss and the role of women and infants.)

The argument that "the AAH suggest that bipedalism is disadvantageous when comparing humans to medium-sized, terrestrial quadrupeds" is a red-herring invented by John Langdon, cherry picked from one of Elaine Morgan's books. Most waterside proponents today do not depend on that argument and would argue that the LCA of humans and chimps were wading-climbing apes exhibiting some kind of bipedalism, but not the current modern energy-efficient kind. To argue for early brachiation as the primary driver of bipedalism does not explain why chimps and gorillas and (to a lesser extent) orang utans reverted to quadrupedalism. The wading hypothesis answers this point easily.

The argument that "the elongated lower limbs of humans, which is explained by AAH proponents as improving swimming speeds" is a misrepresentation. Only a few proponents hold that view.

It is correct to say that "there is no single accepted explanation for human bipedalism" but a more scholarly list (of over 30+) of them could be provided. The wading hypothesis compares favourably with most of them as shown here.

A paper on the Wading Hypotheses of Human Bipedal Origins was recently published in the journal Human Evolution.

Abstract

At least 30 or so distinct ideas have been published in the scientific literature since the time of Charles Darwin pertaining to the origin of human bipedal locomotion and attempting to explain it in evolutionary terms. Some of them overlap and are complementary, whilst others vary widely and are contradictory. Each of them has strengths and weaknesses but there have been no published attempts at objectively comparing and evaluating them. Their popularity, or otherwise, according to the way they are presented in university texts, appears to be largely a matter of what is currently appealing to authorities of the day. One idea that has never been popular is the Wading Hypothesis. Here the idea is described in detail, discussed, assessed and objectively compared to other ideas, including those that are de rigeur today. Contrary to the mainstream view in anthropology today, it is argued here that there is nothing in the literature that adequately rejects the wading hypothesis, and that it is actually one of the strongest ideas yet proposed, deserving far more serious attention than it has been afforded to date. A “River Apes … Coastal People” wading model is introduced. This three-phased model of the evolution of human bipedality proposes a wading-climbing Last Common Ancestor of Gorilla-Pan-Homo (LCA-GPH), a seasonally flooded gallery forest habitat for the evolution of hominin bipedality, and a largely coastal foraging phase to optimise our modern efficient, striding gait.

Kuliukas, A.V. Wading Hypotheses of the Origin of Human Bipedalism. Human Evolution 28 (3-4):213-236, (2013).

AlgisKuliukas (talk) 05:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

By the very abstract, it essentially removes itself from contention because we present the mainstream views, not the views that say they mainstream shouldnt be considered. Also, if you are the A V Kuliukas of the paper, please note our conflict of interest policy and refrain from using Wikipedia as a platform to promote your fringe ideas. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:32, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Where, in the abstract (or the paper) does it "say the mainstream shouldn't be considered"? It doesn't. The paper considers all of the 30+ ideas more thoroughly than any other paper I've read on the subject (and, as my PhD is on this subject, I've read most of them.)

Yes, I am the author of the paper. I offer it as an example of a peer reviewed paper published in the scientific literature on the very subject which this topic refers. The article at the moment cites no such paper and so I think it would improve its scholarliness to do so. I posted it here on the Talk page (and not on the page itself) because of the COI point, in the hope that some impartial editor might use it.

The idea that wading may have had a contributory role in the origin in human bipedalism is backed by more evidence than most of the other 30+ ideas. Your labelling it as "fringe" simply indicates a bias. Carsten Niemitz, Colin Groves, Richard Wrangham, Chris Stringer and Sir David Attenborough are just some respected authorities on evolution who would not share your view.

AlgisKuliukas (talk) 09:05, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Westenhöfer's alleged National Socialist influence

It says in the section on Westenhöfer's original draft of the AAH that he was "influenced by German National Socialism". No support for this statement is offered. Moreover, the article on Westenhöfer himself says little about his political views, but as he is stated to have influenced S. Allende, and was very concerned with the social conditions in Chile, he does not appear to have been too far right-wing. I don't know about the Anglo-Saxon discourse, but in Germany, linking somebody or something with National Socialism is a cheap, stupid, but fully effective way of discrediting him or it. Thus, mentioning the alleged influence in the beginning of the article is apt to prejudice the reader against the hypothesis from the start. This is even more deplorable if the claim should be wrong. I therefore suggest to either substantiate or remove this phrase. Konrad Lehmann (talk) 09:37, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Certainly, if it isn't sourced, it needs to be - or removed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:44, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Looking into this further, I'd have to suggest that we need a source for the assertion that he "can be said to have worded an early version of AAH..." too. His hypothesis was certainly aquatic - but apparently non-ape. He seems to have argued that we weren't descended from apes at all, if what I can glean from a quick Google search is correct. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:57, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

New support

Here is a popular article with new support for the aquatic ape hypothesis from genetics and paleoanthropology.

http://boingboing.net/2009/12/16/how-shellfish-saved.html

http://boingboing.net/2009/12/16/how-shellfish-saved.html

Elemming (talk) 15:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

New version - again!

Wow. Someone has really made a butchery of Wikipedia standards. At least a quarter of this article should be edited out to remove the obvious biases against this theory and get a NPOV. Elemming (talk) 15:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Timeline of changes

The page could really do with a timeline of when each feature ascribed to the hypothesis (flooding of the Afar triangle, bipedalism, descending larynx, enlarging brain, reduction in hair, lowering density of the skeleton, etc) is known to have occurred, to see which - if any - occurred roughly at the same time as each other. If there's little or no overlap in the date ranges, then the hypothesis would seem severely weakened, though the "Waterside development" angle wouldn't be completely ruled out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DewiMorgan (talk • contribs) 09:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

baiting

Suggested revision

Let's have a little fun with the denier. Please explain again just how the below version is POV-pushing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CEngelbrecht (talk • contribs) 19:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC) Newborns float and hold their breath instinctively when submerged. This is argued to be one of many aquatic adaptations by proponents of the aquatic ape hypothesis. A female gorilla wades across a body of water. Observed bipedalism in many simian species in shallow water is argued as illustrative of the origin of human bipedalism. The aquatic ape hypothesis (AAH) or aquatic ape theory (AAT) is a hypothesis about human evolution which posits that the ancestors of modern humans spent a period of time adapting to a semiaquatic existence. AAH emerged from the observation that some anatomical and physiological traits that set humans apart from other primates have parallels in aquatic mammals. The hypothesis was first proposed by German pathologist Max Westenhöfer in 1942, and then independently by English marine biologist Alister Hardy in 1960. After Hardy, the most prominent proponent was Welsh writer Elaine Morgan, who has written several books on the topic. AAH is not accepted among the mainstream explanations of human evolution. Scientific consensus states that humans first evolved during a period of rapid climate fluctuation between wet and dry, and that most of the adaptations that distinguish humans from the great apes are adaptations to a terrestrial, as opposed to an earlier, arboreal environment. Few paleoanthropologists have explicitly evaluated AAH in scientific journals, and those that have reviewed the hypothesis have been critical. An extensive criticism appeared in a peer reviewed paper by John H. Langdon in 1997. Langdon states that the AAH is one of many hypotheses attempting to explain human evolution through a single causal mechanism, and that the evolutionary fossil record does not support such a proposal; that the hypothesis is internally inconsistent, has less explanatory power than its proponents claim, and that alternative terrestrial hypotheses are much better supported. AAH is popular among laypeople and has continued support by a minority of scholars. Langdon attributes this to the attraction of simplistic single-cause theories over the much more complex, but better supported models with multiple causality. History The German pathologist Max Westenhöfer (1871–1957) can be said to have worded an early version of AAH, which he labeled "the aquatile man" (German: Aquatile Mensch), which he described in several publications during the 1930s and 1940's. Westenhöfer was partially influenced by contemporary German National Socialism and disputed Charles Darwin's theory on the kinship between modern man and the great apes. As part of a complex and unique presentation of human evolution, he argued that a number of traits in modern humans derived from a fully aquatic existence in the open seas, and that humans only in recent times returned to land. In 1942, he stated: "The postulation of an aquatic mode of life during an early stage of human evolution is a tenable hypothesis, for which further inquiry may produce additional supporting evidence." Westenhöfer’s aquatic thesis suffered from a number of inconsistencies and contradictions, and consequently he abandoned the concept in his writings on human evolution around the end of the Second World War. Independently and ignorant of Westenhöfer's writings, marine biologist Alister Hardy (1896-1985) had since 1930 also hypothesized, that humans may have had ancestors more aquatic than previously imagined, although his work conversely was rooted in the Darwin consensus. As a young academic with a hypothesis belonging to a topic outside his field, and because he was aware of its inherent controversy, Hardy delayed reporting his idea for some thirty years. After he had become a respected academic and knighted for contributions to marine biology, Hardy finally voiced his thoughts in a speech to the British Sub-Aqua Club in Brighton on 5 March 1960. Several national newspapers reported distorted versions of Hardy's ideas, which he countered by explaining them more fully in an article in New Scientist on 17 March 1960. Hardy defined his idea: My thesis is that a branch of this primitive ape-stock {hominoids} was forced by competition from life in the trees to feed on the sea-shores and to hunt for food, shell fish, sea-urchins etc., in the shallow waters off the coast. I suppose that they were forced into the water just as we have seen happen in so many other groups of terrestrial animals. I am imagining this happening in the warmer parts of the world, in the tropical seas where Man could stand being in the water for relatively long periods, that is, several hours at a stretch. The idea received some interest after the article was published, but was generally ignored by the scientific community thereafter. In 1967, the hypothesis was briefly mentioned in The Naked Ape, a book by Desmond Morris (1928–) in which can be found the first use of the term "aquatic ape". While doing research for her book "The Descent of Woman" published in 1972, a book inspired by reading Morris' The Naked Ape, TV-writer Elaine Morgan (1920-2013) was struck by the potential explanatory power of Hardy's hypothesis. While elaborating on Hardy's suggestion, Morgan also sought to challenge what she considered a masculine domination of the debate on human evolution, and the satirical book became an international bestseller, making Morgan a popular figure in feminist movements and on various TV talkshows in, for example, the United States. Conversely, her scientific contributions, including her elaboration on Hardy's aquatic humans was effectively ignored by anthropology. Morgan has since been the force majeure behind the development of Hardy's original idea, which after a number of publications culminated in 1997 with the book "The Aquatic Ape Hypothesis", which, with its now more factual language and proper referencing, was aimed primarily at the academic community. In 1987 a symposium was held in Valkenburg, the Netherlands, to debate the pros and cons of AAH. The proceedings of the symposium were published in 1991 with the title "Aquatic Ape: Fact or fiction?". The chief editor summarized the results of the symposium as failing to support the idea that human ancestors were aquatic, but there is also some evidence that they may have swum and fed in inland lakes and rivers, with the result that modern humans can enjoy brief periods of time spent in the water. Weaker versions of the hypothesis suggesting littoral feeding and wading rather than strong aquatic adaptation have since been proposed. These weaker versions of the hypothesis have not yet been scientifically explored. The context of the initial presentations of AAH (a popular essay and a political text) diverted attention away from the possible scientific merits of the hypothesis. Most paleoanthropologists reject the AAH; but it has never been seriously scrutinized and discussed within the field of paleoanthropology. Hypothesis Anthropological consensus on human evolution Family tree showing the extant hominoids: humans (genus Homo), chimpanzees and bonobos (genus Pan), gorillas (genus Gorilla), orangutans (genus Pongo), and gibbons (four genera of the family Hylobatidae: Hylobates, Hoolock, Nomascus, and Symphalangus). Great Rift Valley in East Africa, key to human evolution. File:Paranthropus on Plains art.jpg A classic depiction of the consensus on the earliest evolution of hominins in East Africa, here Paranthropus. See also: Human evolution Modern humans, Homo sapiens, developed from earlier forms found as fossils at various locations around the world, seeing an early concentration in East Africa. Other remnants from early humans such as tools, foods, dwellings, etc., have also been detected. Combined, these finds present a partial image of the process, that developed the species Homo sapiens. From the collective work of anthropology, and in later years also genetics, established consensus states, that humans belong in the biological tribe Hominini, this in the family of Hominidae (the great apes), this in the order of primates, this in the class of mammals. Humans are closely related to, in order of closest kinship, the great ape genera chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and further distant the family of gibbons. Hominini includes the subtribe Australopithecina with the genera Sahelanthropus, Orrorin, Ardipithecus, Paranthropus, Australopithecines; and the subtribe Hominina, encompassing the genus Homo, some of its species being Homo habilis, Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, the Neanderthals and modern humans, the latter being the only extant species. There is still some uncertainty about the interrelation between the known Hominin fossils; new finds can still drastically rewrite the human family tree, most recently with Sahelanthropus. Contemporary anthropology estimates, that the direct ancestors of modern humans split from a common ancestor to chimpanzees somewhere between 4 and 8 million years ago in Africa; the fossil ape Sahelanthropus tchadensis which lived some 7 million years ago in Chad is considered the earliest possible homininin. Since the breakthrough of Darwin and Wallace's theory of evolution in the 19th century, it has been heavily debated why humans have features that distinguish them from their nearest evolutionary relatives; most notably by being near-furless, employing upright bipedal stance on their hind limbs, and having the perhaps most complex brain in the animal kingdom. A wide range of difficult to corroborate hypotheses have been presented as to the evolutionary background of the unique features of modern humans; for human bipedalism e.g. altered carrying behavior, improved energy efficiency, improved thermal regulation, altered social behavior and increased dominance behavior. The human split from the lineage of the chimpanzees is linked to the geological formation of the East African mountain range Great Rift Valley that extends from Djibouti to Mozambique. In this region are found many of the key fossils of the earliest hominins, leaving it to be considered the cradle of humanity. The most widely considered hypothesis is that woodland dwelling, brachiating hominoids, specifically on the eastern side of the mountain range, gradually lost their habitat to more open areas, for instance grasslands, and that this and other changes forced these hominoids to develop the shapes, that gradually resulted in modern humans. In recent decades, the traditional image of human origin having taken place in grasslands (e.g. the African savannah) has been challenged, since particularly the oldest homininin fossils are found alongside fossilized fauna and flora from traditional woodland habitats, rather than from grasslands, e.g. the some 4.4 million year old fossil Ardi, an Ardipithecus ramidus. The basis of AAH AAH suggests that many features that distinguish humans from their nearest evolutionary relatives emerged because the ancestors of humans underwent a period when they were adapting to an aquatic or semi-aquatic way of life, but returned to terrestrial life before having become fully adapted to the aquatic environment. Variations within the hypothesis suggests these protohumans to have spent time either wading, swimming or diving on the shores of fresh, brackish or saline waters and feeding on littoral resources. Key arguments have been developed and presented by Elaine Morgan since 1972, these based on the original suggestion of Alister Hardy. In later years, other contributors have further developed the aquatic ideas, some of which differ heavily from the original "aquatic ape" of Hardy et Morgan. The term waterside hypotheses of human evolution has been coined by AAH-proponent Algis Kuliukas to collectively represent this diversity, of which AAH is only one such hypothesis. Most traits perceived as aquatic are physiological and biochemical, while few are behavioral (ethological). The time frame for the origin og possible termination of such an aquatic existence also differs between proponents, or though the same time frame as anthropological consensus is generally followed. In most cases, this aquaticism is perceived as having been instigated by selective pressure around the split of the last common ancestor between humans and chimpanzees. The Belgian physician Marc Verhaegen has presented a unique variation of AAH, where semiaquatic traits is argued to be evident even before the split between humans and chimpanzees, this in Dryopithecus-like apes between 15 to 7 million years ago, which at that time had migrated from rain forests in Africa to then tropical rainforests around the Tethys Sea, the Mediterranean and across Southern Asia. At the end of this warmer period, the ancestors of orangutans is said to have migrated into South East Asia, while the ancestors of humans, chimps and gorillas migrated back into Africa, evolving into their present forms; chimps and gorillas becoming more land locked, while humans developed aquatic traits. Verhaegen also argues, that human aquaticism reached its peak with Homo erectus some 2-1 million years ago, this observed by e.g. thickened erectus bones, labeled pachyosteosclerosis, which is argued as having convergence during e.g. whale evolution from land to aquatic forms. Verhaegen further argues, that human aquaticism originally developed in tropical mangrove or seasonally flooded woodland, this based on the flora and fauna found alongside the earliest hominin fossils, a phenomenon he labels aquarborealism. The argued degree of human aquaticism varies amongst proponents, however the vast majority argues a semiaquatic ape on par with e.g. hippos and sea otters. Very few have argued a fully aquatic stage on par with e.g. whales or pinnipeds, and this is rejected by the majority, including Morgan. Some pseudoscientific and cryptozoologic speculations have made use of parts of the AAH argumentation, e.g. the claimed existence of mermaids, but this is also rejected by proponents, including Morgan. While most proto-human fossil sites are associated with wet conditions upon the death of the hominins, this is not seen as unequivocal evidence for the AAH, since being buried in waterside sediment is one of the rare situations in which fossilization is likely to occur (labeled preservation bias); paleontologists are aware of this preservation bias and expect fossils to be located at such sediments. Physiological and biochemical claims Bipedalism is argued as an adaptation to wading in shallow waters. Bipedalism: The habitual, upright bipedalism of extant humans is argued as an adaptation to wading along shallow coastlines. Proponents of AAH argues, that bipedalism offers numerous advantages in water, including permitting deeper wading, improved balance, reduced strain on the back, hips and knees as well as improved blood circulation. Proponents point towards a similar upright bipedal stride employed by a wide range of ape and monkey species, when wading in shallow waters, e.g. chimps, gorillas, orangutans, baboons, macaques, etc. Fossilized remains indicate, that as early as Toumaï (a Sahelanthropus tchadensis), living 7 million years ago alongside Lake Megachad, human ancestors were bipedal. Proponents of AAH suggest that bipedalism is disadvantageous when comparing humans to medium-sized, terrestrial quadrupeds, and the fossil record shows that the evolution of humans from ape ancestors didn't include a period of quadrupedal locomotion. Instead, human transitional evolution features mainly brachiation, suspension and climbing as the primary method of transportation, with a gradual increase in bipedal locomotion over time. Critics argue, that bipedialism also provides many advantages on land, particularly lower energy expenditure and the ability of long-distance running, which humans is suggested as being better at than most terrestrial mammals. In addition, the elongated lower limbs of humans, which is explained by AAH proponents as improving swimming speeds, appears only after the evolution of the genus Homo and biomechanical analysis argues, that humans are poor swimmers, and that pre-human apes would face similar problems. There is no single accepted explanation for human bipedalism, other suggested models are freeing the hands for tool use, carrying of infants, feeding adaptations, improved energy expenditure or some combination of these, with considerable diversity in pre-human skeletal adaptations that would assist in bipedalism. Loss of fur in humans is argued to be convergent with some furless aquatic, semiaquatic and former semiaquatic (e.g. elephants) mammals. The insulating layer of fat in the human skin (shown here as yellow beads) is perceived as a primitive layer of blubber. Hairlessness and subcutaneous fat: Morgan claims that the near-hairless skin of humans, unique among all simians and the majority of mammals, is comparable to adaptations in aquatic mammals, apart from whales, pinnipeds and sirenia also semiaquatic hippos, and land-dwelling mammals with aquatic ancestors, such as elephants and rhinos. Morgan has furthered Hardy's original observation, that what body hair humans do have follows the flow of water over the body. Morgan also argues, that the human insulating layer of fat beneath the dermis is not present in the other great apes, and can be perceived as a primitive form of blubber. Critics argue, that humans vary strongly in the amount and distribution of body hair and that comparably sized mammals adapted to semiaquatic lifestyles just as often as not have dense, insulating fur, e.g. otters, or large, barrel-shaped bodies that retain heat well in water, e.g. hippos. Though a variety of explanations have been proposed for human hairlessness, the best-supported hypothesis involves improved cooling through perspiration; while fur helps cool inactive animals, hairless skin that sweats vigorously is argued as being much better at cooling humans who generate body heat through activity. Langdon, in his 1997 critique of the hypothesis, stated that the streamlining features attributed to hair follicle distribution and direction would be more reasonably achieved through changes in the shape of the skeleton and soft tissues. The inherent human diving ability far exceeds all other simians. Descended larynx, breath control and speech: The human larynx is situated in the throat rather than the nasal cavity, a feature shared by some aquatic animals who use it to close off the trachea while diving and facilitates taking large breaths of air upon surfacing. Humans also have a considerable amount of control over their breathing, which is an involuntary reflex for most terrestrial mammals. In humans, the descended larynx and increased breath control allows for habitual verbalism, such as complex speech, music, etc. In a controversial claim, Morgan suggests that the use of speech has possible precendents in other aquatic mammals, most notably whales and seals. Humans possess a strong diving reflex, allowing them, with exposure, to hold its breath for minutes at a time and dive long distances under water as well as to great depths, as much as to 50 meters depth unassisted by diving equipment, etc. This makes humans by far the best diver among all simians, seeing a rare parallel in the semiaquatic proboscis monkey from Indonesia, having been observed diving untill 20 meters. After brief water exposure of the body, the humans spleen contracts to spew a reserve of red blood cells into the cardiovascular system, allowing for longer breathholds, which Morgan argues has precedents in e.g. pinnipeds. Counter to these arguments, it has been pointed out, that a terrestrial mammal such as the red deer also have a permanently descended larynx, allowing it for extended verbalism, or though without conscious breath control. Breath control has also been argued as having been preceded by bipedalism, which frees up the muscles of the upper torso from locomotion and allows breathing independent of limb position. Both of these adaptations are thought to derive from improvements in vocalization and the evolution of the ability to speak. and the human larynx is shaped differently from that of aquatic animals, predisposing humans to choking. Shellfish is argued as a possible prehistoric source to the expansion of the human brain. Encephalization: The human encephalization quotient, an expression of the size and complexity of the brain of a species, compared to its physical size and other factors, is considered the highest in the animal kingdom, followed by whales, in particular dolphins, other great apes, elephants, certain spiecies of squid and some intelligent birds. It has been argued, that aquatic mammals more often develop large brains, and that particularly grassland mammals conversely stagnate in brain development. Morgan and other authors have suggested that the encephalization of the human brain was a response to increased consumption of seafood. A team lead by Canadian biochemist Stephen Cunnane has argued, that both developing and maintaining a healthy human brain is heavily dependent on a key series of micronutrients, most especially DHA (an Omega 3 fatty acid) and iodine-ions. Both these have proven extremely rare in purely terrestrial food groups (including cereals, fruits, vegetables and husbandry meats), but are conversely abundant in fish, shellfish and other sea foods, particular from saline and alcalic waters. Critics have argued, that considerable human encephalization began quite late in the development of the genus Homo, particularly with Homo erectus, long after the development of bipedalism. Bipedalism had occurred already in the australopithecines (4.2–3.9 mya) and Ardipithecus (4.4 mya), and perhaps as early as in the species Sahelanthropus tchadensis (approx. 7 mya). On the other hand increase in cranial capacity occurs quite late in the fossil record: Homo habilis (approx. 2 mya) for example, while fully bipedal, had a brain size within the range of modern day gorillas. Counter to this, Cunnane et al have argued, that a transition of semiaquatic Hominina-forms from fresh water habitats in the hinterland of Africa to more alcalic and saline habitats in Eastern Africa, e.g. in the then sea-flooded Afar-triangle in modern Ethiopia, could have supported the increase in human brain size through an increased access to e.g. DHA and iodine rich foods. It is argued, that molluscs, e.g. clams and oysters, as found along the shores of East Africa and in alcalic lakes along the Great Rift Valley has an optimal composition to support the extant human brain's nutritional needs. Proponents point to archaeological finds of shellfish kitchen middens as far back as in middle pleistocene some 164,000 years ago, during the earliest days of archaic Homo sapiens. Conversely, critics argue that landlocked humans without access to seafood develop normal brains and that these nutritional requirements can be met with a sepcific terrestrial diet. The encephalization of early Homo species is also argued as having been possibly driven by the consumption of hunted or scavenged animal brains supplying large amounts of scarce nutrients including docosahexaenoic acid. Reproduction: Morgan and others point to the increased adiposity of human infants, a marked difference from the offspring of other great apes. THis is suggested as an adaptation to increased insulation and buoyancy in water for human babies. It is pointed out, that vernix caseosa, a cheesy varnish coating the skin of newborn babies, apart from humans so far has only been observed on the cups of a few pinniped species, harbour seals. It is pointed out, that infant humans cannot walk upright, untill as much as one year of age, completely unknown among simian offspring, e.g. grassland-dwelling baboons. Morgan also claims, that newborns are adequately suited to swim along with their mother, while being able to hold their breath upwards of 45 seconds. Historically, women throughout the world have experienced a series of potentially life-threatening circumstances delivering above water, while Morgan and others, e.g. the French physician Michel Odent, point to recent decades of studies into baby swimming and water birth, which is argued to relieve stress and pain effects for both mother and child, with no corresponding observed drowning risks for the child. Morgan also points to unique features of both men and women's genitals, and the woman's protruding, fat-filled bosom as possible aquatic adaptations, with alleged convergence observed in sirenia. Presented criticism to these claims include the infant's increased risk of drowning if parting from its mother, coupled with observations of both young children as well as adults developing aquaphobia, while baby swimming and water birth are being rejected as fads. Ethological claims Habitat: Proponents of AAH argue, that the concentration of the contemporary world population of more than 7 billion people illustrates a trend for Homo sapiens to cling together in coastal regions alongside river valleys, lakes and seashores, in modern times particularly in India and China. Critics argue that this cannot disclose a similar trend in the eon long development of Homo, as modern human urbanization is said to be dependent on easier transit routes, this including rivers and seas. Conversely, Morgan argues, that humans have a similar preference for recreation sites along said coastal regions, e.g. tropical beaches. Human bathing behavior is argued as a remnant of recent semiaquaticism. Bathing behavior: Across the globe, humans employ hygiene bathing, this regardless of faction, ethnicity, gender, etc. This is argued as a behavioral relic of a semiaquatic stage. As an offshoot to the argument that other traditional terrestrial mammal groups may also be past semiaquatics, similar behavioral traits in both African and Asian elephants, which are also observed bathing regularly with its whole body submerged. Other claims Rare presented AAH-arguments points to the human tendency to watery psychic tears, and also sweat to cool down, where Morgan has withdrawn previous arguments, seeing that horses is a rare mammal species to also sweat profusely. It is occasionally argued, that humans compared to other apes have reduced olfaction, with claimed convergences observed in other aquatics, e.g. whales; that the protuding human nose would be adapted to keep splashes out of nasal cavities, arguing the semiaquatic proboscis monkey or semiaquatic tapirs as possible convergences; the tendency of partial to full baldness in men; the tendency for human obesity; and that human kidneys are better suited for excretion of salt than other apes. Such arguments are generally considered more speculative and is often heavily critized. Theoretical considerations Critics of AAH note, that the descended larynx is not exclusive to humans in terrestrials, but also found in red deers. Elaine Morgan retracted an early AAH-argument of human sweating being an aquatic indicator after critics cited, that also horses sweat. The AAH has been criticized for containing multiple inconsistencies and lacking evidence from the fossil record to support its claims (Morgan, for instance, failed to discuss any fossils found after 1960 and much of her analysis is by comparing soft tissues between humans and aquatic species). It is also described as lacking parsimony, despite purporting to be a simple theory uniting many of the unique anatomical features of humans. Anthropologist John D. Hawks expresses the view that rather than explaining human traits simply and parsimoniously, it actually requires two explanations for each trait - first that proximity to water drove human evolution enough to significantly change the human phenotype and second that there was significant evolutionary pressure beyond mere phylogenetic inertia to maintain these traits (which would not be adaptive on dry land) and points out that exaptation is not an adequate reply. Hawks concludes by saying: In other words, the Aquatic Ape Theory explains all of these features, but it explains them all twice. Every one of the features encompassed by the theory still requires a reason for it to be maintained after hominids left the aquatic environment. Every one of these reasons probably would be sufficient to explain the evolution of the traits in the absence of the aquatic environment. This is more than unparsimonious. It leaves the Aquatic Ape Theory explaining nothing whatsoever about the evolution of the hominids. This is why professional anthropologists reject the theory, even if they haven't fully thought through the logic. Ellen White describes Morgan's work as failing to be empirical, not addressing evidence that contradicts the hypothesis, relying on comparative anatomy rather than selection pressure, not predicting any new evidence and failing to address its own shortcomings. White stated that while the hypothesis had the scientific characteristics of explanatory power and public debate, the only reason it has received any actual scholarly attention is due to its public appeal, ultimately concluding the AAH was unscientific. Others have similarly noted the AAH "is more an exercise in comparative anatomy than a theory supported by data." Though describing the hypothesis as plausible, Henry Gee went on to criticize it for being untestable, as most of the evolutionary adaptations described by Morgan would not have fossilized. Gee also stated that, while purely aquatic mammals such as whales show strong skeletal evidence of adaptation to water, humans and human fossils lack such adaptations (a comment made by others as well); that there are many hypothetical and equally plausible scenarios explaining the unique characteristics of human adaptation without involving an aquatic phase of evolution; and that proponents are basing arguments about past adaptations on present physiology, when humans are not significantly aquatic. There is ultimately only circumstantial evidence to suggest, and no solid evidence to support the AAH. ScienceBlogs author Greg Laden has described the AAH as a "human evolution theory of everything" that attempts to explain all anatomical and physiological features of humans and is correct in some areas only by chance. Laden also states that the AAH was proposed when knowledge of human evolutionary history was unclear, while more recent research has found that many human traits have emerged at different times over millions of years, rather than simultaneously due to a single evolutionary pressure. Evolutionary biologist Carsten Niemitz states that he believes the AAH as expressed by Morgan didn't fulfill the criteria of a theory or a hypothesis, merely "[listing] analogies of features of savannah type mammals on the one hand and of aquatic mammals and man on the other, asking the scientific community for explanations other than a common aquatic ancestor of extant man." Marc Verhaegen has also challenged the AAH as expressed by Morgan, believing the ancestors of apes as well as humans may have had their evolutionary history influenced by exposure to flooded forest environments, and that based on the hominin fossil record, regular part-time underwater foraging began in the Pleistocene rather than the early Pliocene as Morgan’s model proposes. In 2012 Langdon reviewed an e-book published by Bentham Science Publishers collecting 50 years of theorizing about the AAH. In his review, Langdon noted the lack of a single "aquatic ape hypothesis", instead there are multiple hypotheses with a common theme of evolutionary pressure due to dependence on an aquatic habitat. While original versions thought to explain an apparently substantial gap between humans and closely related common ancestors, more recent variants of these hypotheses have had to adjust to the fact that the gap was more apparent than real and the significant commonalities found between humans and other African apes. Three main strands of thought now exist regarding the AAH, varying according to when the theorized aquatic phase occurred - from the Middle Miocene to approximately three million years ago (Hardy's original model, which was based on a large gap in the fossil record that has since been filled in), from the Early Miocene when ancestral hominids were thought to wade in costal swamps and from which Homo species were thought to split off and adapt to swimming and diving (associated with the work of Marc Verhaegen), and from 200,000 years ago when exploitation of costal resources led humans out of Africa and resulted in the evolution of modern humans (associated with the work of Algis Kuliukas). Langdon notes the strong associations of humans with water, as well as the adaptability of the species to incredibly diverse ecological niches (including costal and wetland regions), both within and across lifetimes. Whether these associations define humans as "semiaquatic" or not "represents a fundamental point of departure between anthropologists and the [Aquatic Hypothesis] community." Langdon notes the three lines of evidence cited to support the AAH (comparative anatomy between humans and other semiaquatic species; hypothetical situations in which evolutionary pressure might have produced convergent evolution between humans and semiaquatic species; the ability for humans to perform various activities in the water) and concludes about these lines of evidence, These rhetorical strategies create long lists of claims, but until each hypothesis is independently established, it does not constitute evidence for an aquatic scenario. At best it shows consistency with a prior assumption. Evolutionary convergence – structural similarity – by itself is a metaphor for functional similarity. Metaphors are useful, but they demand that we examine points of resemblance closely in order to learn whether they are meaningful. Like metaphors, evolutionary convergences have their limits: eventually differences will emerge. Dolphins and humans are similar in the loss of body hair, relatively large brains, and complex vocal capacities; but these similarities do not make us dolphins. Nor is it clear which, if any of these similarities are related to water. Each trait must be investigated and resolved as a separate functional and evolutionary question. Unproven suppositions cannot serve as evidence for other hypotheses. Langdon criticizes the alleged "parsimony" of the AAH irrelevant as it is used to generate hypotheses about human adaptation – but does not prove them. The AAH is, like many Just So Stories in anthropology, ignored less because of prejudice than because of a lack of empirical evidence to support it, because it engages only with supporting evidence in the relevant scientific literature while ignoring the larger body of unsupporting evidence, and because its hypotheses are portrayed as "compatible with" more accepted hypotheses and thus unable to distinguish between or provide explicit evidence for the AAH. Langdon concludes his review: It is now incumbent upon both authors and critics to clarify the assumptions with which they are working and, where possible, to make empirically testable predictions. Similarly, the many gloating references in this book to the collapse of the Savannah Hypothesis should not suggest that all terrestrial models have been challenged. Possibly the time has come to bring the “paradigms” together; to step out of the “us vs. them” mentality held by both sides of this debate; and simply to recognize that dozens of speculative hypotheses for human evolution exist in the literature that may or may not discuss a relationship with water. The authors of the volume published a reply. Reception The AAH has received little serious attention or acceptance from mainstream paleoanthropologists, has been met with significant skepticism and is not considered a strong scientific hypothesis. The AAH does not appear to have passed the peer review process, and despite Morgan being praised by various scholars, none of her work has appeared in any academic journals of anthropology or related disciplines. The AAH is thought by some anthropologists to be accepted readily by popular audiences, students and non-specialist scholars because of its simplicity. In 1987 a symposium was held in Valkenburg, the Netherlands, titled "Aquatic Ape: Fact or fiction?", which published its proceedings in 1991. A review of Morgan's book The Scars of Evolution stated that it did not address the central questions of anthropology – how the human and chimpanzee gene lines diverged – which was why it was ignored by the scholarly community. The review also stated that Morgan ignored the fossil record and skirted the absence of evidence that australopithecine underwent any adaptations to water, making the hypothesis impossible to validate from fossils. Morgan has claimed the AAH was rejected for a variety of reasons unrelated to its explanatory power: old academics were protecting their careers, sexism on the part of male researchers, and her status as a non-academic intruding on academic debates. Despite modifications to the hypothesis and occasional forays into scientific conferences, the AAH has neither been accepted as a mainstream theory nor managed to venture a genuine challenge to orthodox theories of human evolution. Morgan's critics have claimed that the appeal of AAH can be explained in several ways: The hypothesis appears to offer absolute answers, which appeals more to students and the public than the qualified and reserved explanations offered by mainstream science. Unusual ideas challenge the authority of science and scientists, which appeals to anti-establishment sentiments. The AAH as developed by Morgan has a strong feminist component, which particularly appeals to a specific, feminist audience. The AAH can be explained simply and easily, lacking the myriad details and complicated theorizing involved in dealing with primary sources and materials. The AAH uses negative arguments, pointing to the flaws and gaps in conventional theories; though the criticisms of mainstream science and theories can be legitimate, the flaws in one theory do not automatically prove a proposed alternative. The consensus views of conventional anthropology are complicated, require specialized knowledge and qualified answers, and the investment of considerable time to understand. John D. Hawks, along with PZ Myers and fellow ScienceBlogs paleontologist Greg Laden recommend the website "Aquatic Ape Theory: Sink or Swim?" by Jim Moore as a resource on the topic. Conversely, Elaine Morgan and Algis Kuliukas have critisized Jim Moore for heavily distorting in particular Morgan's arguments, this with very little use of references. Anthropologist Colin Groves has stated that Morgan's theories are sophisticated enough that they should be taken seriously as a possible explanation for hominin divergence and Carsten Niemitz has found more recent, weaker versions of the hypothesis more acceptable, approaching some of his own theories on human evolution. In a 2012 paper, anthropologist Philip Tobias noted that rejection of the AAH led to stigmatization of a spectrum of topics related to the evolution of humans and their interaction with water. The result of this bias, in his and co-authors' opinions, was an incomplete reconstruction of human evolution within varied landscapes. See also Endurance running hypothesis Footnotes External links Aquatic ape hypothesis/Archive 6 at Curlie – other web resources Scars of Evolution, podcast of two part BBC Radio 4 feature on AAH, broadcast in 2005 Presentation by Elaine Morgan at TED July, 2009; Comment on ScienceBlogs by paleoanthropologist Greg Laden {{Link FA|hu}}

References

signing (with falsified date to match original end of discussion) for archiver. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:06, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Watery psychic tears

"Rarely presented AAH arguments point to the human tendency to produce watery psychic tears". Watery psychic tears? As opposed to tears that are not watery and do not have the ability to read minds? I'm guessing that the word "psychic" here is intended to mean something like "generated by the psyche" - i.e. emotion - but it's not the best choice of words. It's also not very clear what this argument actually is. Why is crying only possible is you evolve in water? Is the argument that the body would not adapt to unnecessarily lose a precious resource such as water unless it evolved in conditions in which water was plentiful? This needs some context as well as clarification. Paul B (talk) 13:43, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that argument is very weird.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:33, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

(cont.)

This article is horribly dated and biased. The AAT of today is far different than what Hardy presented or what Elaine Morgan promoted. As there remains such controversy on the subject I would like to suggest the following solution:

Establish 2 pages, one Anti AAT and one Pro AAT. Allow the two sides to separately present their evidence and arguments in a thoughtful and respectful manner. As for the current article, it could either be deleted or used as the anti view.

205.167.128.152 (talk) 18:01, 7 June 2015 (UTC)GCJ

Two articles won't be happening per our WP:POVFORK guideline. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:04, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Not surprising to hear that. Sad that dialogue is being discouraged. BTW, Neil, are you a WIKI Administrator?

205.167.128.152 (talk) 19:38, 7 June 2015 (UTC)GCJ

Articles aren't forums for dialogues. Administrators don't have any special say in article content (they follow Wikipedia's policies and guidelines like everyone else) but if I was answering this question in about an hour instead of now, I would say yes. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:50, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Duplication

I have uncited the word to word [4] duplication from BBC article.[5] Please research, there can be more. VandVictory (talk) 03:37, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Another one, [6] was not different to [7] VandVictory (talk) 04:22, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

[8] not different to [9] VandVictory (talk) 09:50, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

The above user has been blocked as part of a prolific SOCK campaign. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:53, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

This article makes me so sad

It's so sad because there is no opportunity for AAT supporters to really explain the theory properly. Most of the scepticism comes from not fully understanding the idea, and there is no hope for us to change this article to what we really think when there are people out there wishing to paint us as Nazis. I couldn't even add a link to wiki's own page on the dive reflex. I can only imagine that this must have been the sorrow once faced by Darwin, when the theory of evolution was first met with so much resistance. It leaves a little glimmer of hope that as the outdated references quotes in the article start to gather dust along with their writers, more open-minded people willing to listen to reason rather than positing their opinions as fact will one day be listened to. Wikipaedia editors themselves clearly are interested in this topic - since they featured it on their home page no less than three times! Maybe this was the mistake, because it only drew the article to the attention of fierce opponents who so vehemently believe that this is a "Just So" story? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquapess (talk • contribs) 20:43, 15 May 2015

Actually, from personal experience (I have a degree in anthropology), I think that most of the scepticism comes from understanding the 'theory' well enough - and from recognising just how vague and unfalsifiable it has been. Anyway, I suggest that you read up on Wikipedia policy before editing the article further - we need 'sources for claims regarding scientific acceptance of the hypothesis, not just vague assertions, and endorsements from TV broadcasters... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:08, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Keep your chin up! Darwinism was not accepted over-night. There appears to be more sense in the AAT origins, than the sort-cut hypothesis that our ancestors went from swinging in trees to the prairies (and then, eons later, take up a sedentary life style so they could edit Wikipedia and face book etc., all day). One only has to watch little kids on the beach. The first time a wave throws them bottom-over-elbow they may well cry – but after a time, they can't wait to get into the water again. It is as if being at home on a sea-edge environment is hard-wired into their genes. Unfortunately, the rise in sea level since these times means that evidence of these coastal communities may never be found. Keep plugging away until the old hypothesis fade away.--Aspro (talk) 22:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

One also only has to watch a child with a skateboard. The first time they try it they go base over apex, and run off to mummy/daddy in tears. Within a few days though, they are whizzing around without a care in the world. Evidently, our ancestors once had wheels, and the ability to make use of them is still in our genes. Sadly, the process of erosion/sea level rise/trampling by herds of wildebeest has removed all traces of our ancestral skateboard park hunting grounds... 00:24, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Good reply.. but knock the sarcasm off. Look at the difference between a skate-board park and a sea shore. To-day skateboarders (miles form the coast) have all their food provided by their parents. Compare them to kids on the sea shore. On the sea shore, they soon become interested in things like cockles, mussels, laver,whelks, crabs, etc. Those, they discover are food (unless perhaps one lives in a westernized country like the US, were people won't eat anything unless it has been prepared and cooked for them by others). Don't you think (or see) that skate-board parks are a modern substitute for the thrill of being in the sea? If you don't mind me saying so: Don't you think you have got the cart before the horse, based on autocentric and limited experience and not the bigger picture? The higher availability of protein (from the shores) allowed our guts to shrink, and our craniums to expand – until we became the modern homo sapiens.--Aspro (talk) 01:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

"Don't you think (or see) that skate-board parks are a modern substitute for the thrill of being in the sea?" No. I am a rational human being (with a large and well-fed cranium). I have better things to think about. Like Wikipedia policy, and its applicability to article talk pages. And in particular, policy on not using article talk pages as a forum for facile debates with people who think that science consists of making complete bollocks up, and then expecting other people to swallow it whole. 01:34, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I have reverted your changes as you were clearly pushing a view. For example, you used a Daily Mail article (hardly a sterling source) to highlight support for the theory but failed to include any criticism mentioned in the same article. Why? Cherry picking material is not acceptable. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:04, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

This story is absolutely brilliant, I love it. What better example could we give than skateboards vs swimming. If we are going along the lines of an argument that swimming is what separated us from a shared common ancestor with chimps, then let's have a look at a comparison between the two. Chimps are perfectly capable of skating. Not only skating, but they are also able to rollerblade, ice-skate and do all manner of things that a few unfortunate individuals have been forced to do by their human owners. So clearly skating is not a factor that separates us from our nearest cousins.
Take a look at chimps swimming and we have another story. Water moats have been traditionally used to keep chimps within their enclosures at zoos. A few individuals who have been encouraged by humans to swim have actually succeeded at this, although their locomotion is quite similar to arboreal movements. http://www.sci-news.com/biology/science-chimpanzees-orangutans-swim-dive-01319.html

The real eye-opener is watching them dive. There have been a few reports of chimps diving, and in all the examples seen, the chimps are grabbing at their face in order to submerge themselves. It is quite clear that unless they have a mask or assistance to prevent water entering their nose, they risk drowning from water entering the nose. In all the cases, the chimp in question is seen blocking the nostrils with one hand, severely limiting the amount that can be achieved through the use of hands. They can carry fewer things with only one hand, and may not be able to complete some tasks requiring two hands, such as opening a jar for example, or more close to real life, opening a mollusc or moving rocks in order to retrieve something. Moreover, they would not be able to carry a tool and direct themselves through the propulsion of their other free arm.
Humans on the other hand are the only great ape with a protruding nose, which directs water away from or around the nostrils. It allows forward swimming without water entering the nose and risking drowning. It is clear that chimps would never be able to do free-diving hunting like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgRpwESWPLM both from a physiological standpoint of being able to hold their breath, as well as having hands free for direction, propulsion and carrying
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquapess (talk • contribs) 18:08, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Please see WP:NOR and WP:NOTFORUM. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

A wiki page about the Aquatic Ape theory that doesn't allow any valid Aquatic Ape Theory information or valid references seems strange. What would be the harm in allowing a few real references and adding description of the opposing theories? After the theory is proven fact, then more rigorous requirements could be used before allowing editing.
.
My following sample needs a complete rewrite, but something like:
.
Aquatic Ape Theory pseudoscience: When Pan and Humans split, Pan stayed in the jungle but humans moved to edges of rivers, lakes, and oceans. Humans adapted to waterside life and many humans still live near bodies of water.
.
Savanna Proven Fact science: When Pan and Humans split, Pan stayed in the jungle but humans moved to the savanna. Humans adapted to savanna life but later lost most of the adaptations so do not often live on savannas. Humans only recently moved to be near bodies of water in the last few years with no adaptations. Somitcw (talk) 19:10, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

That is categorically false. It is, however, true to say that it does not allow invalid information. This is by design. Guy (Help!) 17:11, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Guy, please be clearer on what you guess is "That is categorically false.".
Is it that negative people twist the Aquatic Ape Theory into invalid weirdness just to be able to dispute the weirdness that they invented?
Is it that "Aquatic Ape Theory pseudoscience" is only pseudoscience because people with a negative point of view rewrite it to make it appear to be pseudoscience?
Is it that "Savanna Proven Fact science" has no relation with science?
Is the fix to let people that understand AAT delete the hateful AAT article and rewrite from scratch using valid facts about what the theory is?
So many questions to your one incomplete comment. Sorry.
Somitcw (talk) 19:49, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

What is categorically false is the posters' understanding and presentation of what Wikipedia articles are / should be. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:39, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom. I had assumed that Wikipedia articles should contain some truth instead being all distorted information and negative innuendos. My bad.
I wonder why Guy didn't answer?
Somitcw (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Posteditwar discussion

Aquapess is attempting to insert this: {{cquote|Despite this, the central idea of this theory has recently received more attention, and has even gained support from Sir David Attenborough at a recent conference at the Royal Marsden Hospital ("Human Evolution Past, Present and Future - Anthropological, Medical and Nutritional Considerations", 2013).

Let's discuss what to do with this text. I think the 2013 conference should probably be mentioned in the article, but it was of course organized by AAH proponents and did not have any significant participation by mainstream paleoanthropologists, and the 2011 book to my knowledge has only received one negative review by Langdon, who was also the only opponent of the theory present at the conference. We would need some third party coverage of the conference to assess its general reception, and we would also need to include Langdon's counter arguments. I am unsure about what relevance Attenborough's support has, if we start including namedropping then to avoid giving it undue prominence we would probably need a list of similar people opposing the theory - which would of course be longer. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Attenborough was pretty well dismissed. [10], [11], [12] --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:25, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Two of the references you added do not include the words "David Attenborough", so I'm not sure how they are relevant. Granted, one of them gives links to a Guardian piece on the topic , which is actually a well-balanced article attempting to show facts without taking sides.
One of the references you used was a personal piece written by a Nature editor who clearly just wanted to advertise his book, and another one was a blog. It's quite easy to find a blog that agrees with whatever stance you have, so I'm also not clear how that is substantial support for the aquatic ape theory being "wrong".
Lastly, your use of "International Business Times" as a reference is very interesting indeed, especially since one of the criticisms of the AAT is that "only non-specialists" support it. I didn't realise that IBT was a specialist in Palaeoanthropology. I agree, the Daily Mail does peddle some garbage, but at least I was only using it as a national news source to report a factual event, and not as a means to either prove or disprove the theory. Having said that, at least IBT correctly reported that:

Conference chairman Professor Rhys Evans, a surgeon at the Royal Marsden Hospital, said: "We are trying to discuss the pros and cons of the theory. But many of the things which are unique to humans - such as a descended larynx, walking upright, fat beneath the skin, and most obviously an extremely large brain - it seems can best be accounted for as adaptations to extended periods in an aquatic environment."

The issue here isn't whether people agree or disagree with people like David Attenborough or Professor Rhys Evans, but rather that the statement at the end of the opening paragraph is now out of date:

popularity of the idea with non-experts

and a later derogatory comment

The AAH is thought by some anthropologists to be accepted readily by popular audiences, students and non-specialist scholars because of its simplicity

Langdon may have thought this in 1997 (the reference used to support these statement), it is now 2015, and more and more educated people are coming to the conclusion that water likely played a significant part in human evolution, including high ranking medical professors and someone who, yes, may be a broadcaster, but has had lifelong contributions as presenter in the service of science, has first hand experience with, chimps, gorillas and orangutans as well as aquatic mammals throughout his long-spanning career, as well as others in the palaoanthropology field, such as Chris Stringer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquapess (talk • contribs)

"written by a Nature editor who clearly just wanted to advertise his book" - you have a reliable source stating this?

"another one was a blog" - see WP:NEWSBLOG. Scientific American is a respected source, unlike your Medical Hypotheses.

Attenborough and Evans are not experts. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:49, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• There has been presented zero evidence that the view is gaining popularity. The fact that the proponents themselves claim this is entirely irrelevant. The hypothesis is not mentioned in mainstream journals. It is not mentioned in human evolution textbooks. When it starts being mentioned in contexts that is not either conferences organized by proponents, or news coverage of those conferences, then that would mean something. Namedropping means nothing at all.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:57, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

- your reference, where he shamelessly plugs his book mid-article

"As I discuss (with tongue firmly in cheek) in my forthcoming book The Accidental Species,"

Aquapess (talk) 17:47, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, yes, that whole column was written just to insert that one sentence. Since you work at a university, I wonder what professors would say if you came up to them and said they were only teaching classes so they could shamelessly advertise their books? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:14, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm terribly sorry, I've just realised what's happened. I work at a university, and I've made the mistake of thinking that Wikipedia uses the same standards of referencing. You see, our students are not allowed to use blogs as references, and any student found to be doing so will automatically be marked down (after a brief chuckle from whoever is the marker). But I can see that Wikipedia has different rules, so you're quite right, your reference to the SA blog is acceptable in this case.

I'm afraid that we only accept references from peer-reviewed journals or published books for students' coursework as referencing, especially in science. This is how science progresses. Medical Hypotheses is a peer-reviewed journal, with an impact factor of 1.152. Granted, this is quite low, but it would be perfectly respectable for a masters student, and most PhD students don't tend to publish in journals with an impact factor higher than 3 - 5. Most professors or leaders in their field can only hope to publish a handful of times, if ever, in the big journals (Nature, Scientific American, etc, impact factor 20 - 30+), in their entire career. This is mainly because they are non-specialist journals, a bit "jack of all trades", covering everything from quantum physics to genome sequencing, which means that the entire scientific community of the world is in competition to publish in it.

The other peer-reviewed reference I added (and was subsequently deleted from the article) was from Evolutionary Anthropology (journal) This is a specialist journal, and has an impact factor of 4.53, making it a fairly respectable journal in its field. The article was also co-written by respected palaoanthropologist Robert Foley. As I tried to explain on Neil's talk page, he is so well-known that he has his own Wikipedia page. He is an expert in this field, yet it seems you were happy to delete his paper without a passing comment, and only Attenborough piqued your interest. I'm honestly baffled about this obsession with Attenborough, and I've yet to hear any reasons why a reference from an expert was rejected. The David Attenborough insert was perhaps the least important change that I was hoping to make on the page.

I think one of the issues might be that you guys don't have access to these journals, so you can't comment on something which you have not read. I'm happy to send you some articles if you like, so that you can be more well-read on this issue. In the mean time, you can also look at this article from Rae and Koppe (2014) , because even the abstract which you can read mentions David Attenborough:

"The idea that people went through an aquatic phase at some time in their evolutionary past is currently undergoing a popular resurgence (see Foley & Lahr[1]). This idea has even started to gain some traction in more learned circles; the late paleoanthropologist Phillip Tobias wrote in support of aspects of it in an edited e-book[2] and a conference on the topic held recently in London was endorsed by celebrities such as the television presenter Sir David Attenborough.[3] Despite (or perhaps because of) the lack of interest within the academic community, advocates of the concept continue to fill the media with challenges to the “savannah hypothesis” of the origins of people and to bemoan the fact that their views are not taken seriously by mainstream academia."

This is a genuine peer-reviewed article, from a journal that is specialist in the palaoanthropology field. This article is in fact against AAT, but doesn't pretend that AAT isn't undergoing a "popular resurgence" just because they don't agree. This abstract illustrates that mentioning David Attenborough has nothing to do with "name-dropping" and everything to do with bringing AAT discussion to the fore, and the repercussions that his comments have had within the palaeoanthropology community.

In conclusion, you have deleted two of my peer-reviewed references, whilst attempting to back up your own comments with non-peer-reviewed sources. Please tell me again how AAT is "unscientific" and how you justify the retention of unsubstantiated and factually incorrect comments such as "The AAH does not appear to have passed the peer review process" Aquapess (talk) 17:47, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

As I alluded to before, at least one of your peer-reviewed references, Medical Hypotheses, has a dubious reputation. Even the publisher states, "Medical Hypotheses was therefore launched, and still exists today, to give novel, radical new ideas and speculations in medicine open-minded consideration, opening the field to radical hypotheses which would be rejected by most conventional journals." [13] So, a publisher of fringe theories. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:28, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

That is indeed to put it mildly. It is a notorious publisher of fringe science and is not reliable source for anything other than to note that a given fringe idea exists.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 02:03, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Again, no mention of the Evolutionary Anthropology paper that i have referenced even though it fits all the criteria requested:

1. a specialist peer-reviewed journal, edited by experts in the field
2. an article written by opponents of AAT
3. not from a conference
4. a recent article

Seems like you guys want to brush Rae and Koppe (2014) under the carpetAquapess (talk) 12:44, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I had not noted your reference to Rae and Koppe. I found it now and also read Foley and Mirazon in the same issue of EA. Both of those articles are excellent, and deal damaging blows to the scientific status of the AAH. Rae and Koppe demonstrate that the sinus could not have had any relation to flotation. And Foley and Mirazon demonstrates that the watered down lacustrine AAH does not account for any aspects of evolution that has not already been better accounted for by non aquatic hypotheses. They conclude that the AAH has been around for 50 years and no significant evidence in favor has accumulated, and that today no open questions require recourse to an aquatic hypothesis. Both papers should of course be included, but not cited for the en passant mention that Attenborough has supported the hypothesis, but for the substantial argument which is a rejection of AAH.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 14:12, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Maunus, many thanks for taking the time to look up those two papers, that is most appreciated. In defence against the Rae and Koppe paper, the sinus is not considered to be very strongly linked to aquatic living by most AAT supporters (myself included) precisely because there is a very dubious link between the two. I suspect this is why they picked this one feature to focus on, since it is so easy to pick apart, rather than, say the deposition of subcutaneous fat and loss of body hair (widespread in aquatic mammals, and unheard of in other great apes). Even Langdon admitted that "11 out of 26 traits to be possible aquatic adaptations consistent with the AAH" , yet they chose not to pick one of these features. I find it quite pointed that Rae and Koppe shy away from critiquing more complex issues such as subcutaneous fat or the dive reflex in infants, and rather aim at easy targets such as the sinus. It seems to me that the recent resurgence in AAT support has been received as some kind of threat, and this paper is a hasty defence to prevent changing the status quo, and they also use the support of Attenborough dismissively, but this is going off topic. Fact of the matter remains that even they acknowledge that at least the AAT has "gained traction" in recent years, hence my inclusion, rather than any name dropping.

On another matter, since pieces from Scientific American seem to be popular amongst Wikipaedia editors, I thought you all might enjoy reading this: "Wikipedia Editors Woo Scientists to Improve Content Quality" Very much looking forward to a time when academics will be more involved with editing such pages, and even get a chance to correct comments about themselves. Aquapess (talk) 10:08, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

References

Humans aren't the only land mammals that can hold their breath for three minutes.

People will probably not like a YouTube video as a source, but here is a National Geographic clip, See How Easily a Rat Can Wriggle Up Your Toilet. National Geographic says that rats can hold their breath for up to three minutes underwater and they have the stamina to tread water for three days straight. Stoodpointt (talk) 10:02, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Anything that is included should talk about the aquatic ape hypothesis or some very related topic. The video doesn't and so in Wikipedia parlance it is WP:Original research to include it. Wikipedia should just summarize what has been said about the subject. Dmcq (talk) 14:37, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

I read this article a long time ago and I remember it saying humans were the only land animals that can hold their breath. It doesn't say it now. Stoodpointt (talk) 07:52, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Langdon's 1997 Critique is still used as the most authoritative critique of the so-called "Aquatic Ape Hypothesis"

This article uses Langdon's (1997) JHE paper, as it's most authoritative source. This is probably because it remains the only serious critique to be published in a 1st class palaeoanthropological journal. (Foley & Lahr's 2014 4 page critique notwithstanding.) All over the article, arguments from Langdon are cited, as if this was the definitive last word on the matter. This would be fair if a citation was also given to the published critique of Langdon's paper.

Kuliukas AV, (2011). Langdon’s Critique of the Aquatic Ape Hypothesis: It’s Final Refutation, or Just Another Misunderstanding?. In: Vaneechoutte M, Verhaegen M, Kuliukas AV, (eds.), (2011). Was Man More Aquatic In The Past? Fifty Years After Alister Hardy: Waterside Hypothesis Of Human Evolution. Bentham (Basel)

Abstract: Thus far, there has been no challenge to Langdon’s 1997 critique [1]of the aquatic ape hypothesis (AAH), despite its having a number of weaknesses. The paper lacks scholarliness as it does not draw upon the one published scientific investigation into the plausibility of the AAH in the literature, i.e., that byRoede et al. [2]. Langdon’s summary of “anatomical evidence for the AAH” seems to have been directed against an exaggerated interpretation of Alister Hardy’s hypothesis that humans were “more aquatic in the past” [3]. Most of the critique was based on cursory and superficial comparisons with fully aquatic mammals, such as cetaceans, rather than considering whether human ancestors could have been more aquatic than those of apes. Even on this basis, Langdon considered eleven out of twenty-six traits to be “possible aquatic adaptations” or “consistent with the AAH”.

Foley & Lahr (2014) has also been critiqued...

Kuliukas, AV Removing the “hermetic seal” from the Aquatic Ape Hypothesis: Waterside Hypotheses of Human Evolution. Advances in Anthropology 4:164-167, (2014).

The current (March/April 2014) issue of Evolutionary Anthropology is rare in that it contains two papers specifically critiquing the so-called “aquatic ape hypothesis” (abbreviated “AAH”, but better labelled, in the plural, “waterside hypotheses of human evolution.”). The first (Foley & Lahr, 2014) is a general assessment of the authors’ interpretation of the AAH and the second (Rae & Koppe, 2014) is a particular rebuttal of one specific idea—the sinuses for floatation hypothesis. This short paper is a response to both. It is argued that the first uses a straw man’s argument to characterize the so-called “AAH” as arguing for exclusively more aquatic adaptations than waterside proponents have in the past. Foley & Lahr’s paper is also unscholarly in that it does not draw upon the latest scholarly work. One chapter of that work re-defines and re-labels the “AAH”, which was of key importance to their paper. Rae & Koppe’s paper is harder to criticize but still contains some problems which the authors overlook in their strict rejection of the sinuses for floatation hypothesis. If one understands that waterside hypotheses of human evolution are simply postulating that major phenotypic differences between humans and chimps are the result of a (perhaps slight) differential in the selection from wading, swimming and diving, they cannot be ridiculed as belonging in the same “crazy box” as creationism as Henry Gee recently argued and must take their place within mainstream physical anthropology.

AlgisKuliukas (talk) 23:47, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

The point stand that all attention from mainstream evolutionary anthropology has been critical not withstanding the AAH cliques "rebuttals". There is no sign of a change in attitude towards AAH from mainstream evolutionary anthropology - it is still considered a highly problematic fringe hypothesis. Including Foley and Lahr, and Rae and Koppe is fine. And possibly your counter argument could be mentioned. But really iy is clear that the AAH pool is stagnant at this point, in spite of attempts to stir up a storm.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:07, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

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Finger wrinkling

Hello,

It's great that we have a picture for finger wrinkling on the page, but I realised that there is actually no text to explain the relevance of this feature to AAT. Normally images accompany text to demonstrate something, but in this case, there's an image just floating in the "other claims" section with no information about this interesting topic, and as a result it looks a bit clumsy and disorganised. Conversely, the Wikipaedia page for fingers actually has a great and balanced section describing this interesting nervous system response. It's not simply just cells swelling in response to water exposure, which would happen all over our bodies if that was the case; and it has been known for some time that damage to nerves eliminates this response. So I propose to add something like this under the physiological and biochemical claims if that is ok?

• Finger wrinkling:

  

  Finger and toe wrinkling is controlled by the sympathetic nervous system in response to water immersion.

  Humans are the only great apes to show finger and toe pad wrinkling in response to exposure to wet conditions. Originally it was assumed that the finger wrinkling was simply the result of the skin swelling in water, but it is now understood that the furrows are caused by the blood vessels constricting due to signalling by the sympathetic nervous system in response to water exposure. One hypothesis that has been put forward is that the wrinkled fingertips are adaptive for grasping in wet conditions in the same way as tyre treads help to avoid slipping on the roads. This adaptation could have evolved at a time when human ancestors spent a predominant amount of time in aquatic or semi-aquatic environments. To investigate this, a study in 2013 found that the wrinkled fingertips provided better handling of wet objects but gave no advantage for handling dry objects. Conversely, a 2014 study attempting to reproduce these results was unable to demonstrate any improvement of handling wet objects with wrinkled fingertips. However, no other theory has yet been put forward to explain this nervous system response, and the authors of the latter paper suggest that this nervous response "does not serve any adaptive function but rather is a byproduct of sympathetic nervous system-induced vasoconstriction". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquapess (talk • contribs)

And do these papers make direct reference to the AAH? I'm guessing not. Removed along with picture. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:19, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Hello Neil, so pleased to hear from you again!

1) If the finger wrinkling was really irrelevant to AAT, why was the picture there in the first place? Why was it not removed earlier? Especially since it had no reference at all?

2) You cited "no link to AAT" under your reason for removal of the fingertip wrinkling passage. The fingertip wrinkling has been shown by some research as to permit a gripping advantage, but ONLY in wet environments.

The fingertip wrinkling entry for fingers itself in wikipaedia even spells this out:

"One hypothesis for why this occurs, the “rain tread” hypothesis, posits that the wrinkles may help the fingers grip things when wet, possibly being an adaption from a time when humans dealt with rain and dew in forested primate habitats"

AAT supporters believe that the wet conditions that gave rise to the evolution of this interesting nervous response is actually semi-aquatic environments or the result of littoral living where humans collected molluscs from the water for example.

This is one of the central pieces of evidence in support of AAT. Although you may not agree about the evolutionary cause of the wrinkling, (and I included a reference that opposed the idea, for fairness and balance), it is clearly relevant to the topic of AAT, there is published research on it. I wonder what is the need to delete it now, rather than the many years previous that that picture has been up.Aquapess (talk) 16:05, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Because all kinds of inappropriate stuff exists in articles until someone notices it. You cannot take studies that have nothing to do with a fringe theory and say, "See, look! These support the fringe theory." That's like taking a rejected vaccine report and using it to support anti-vaxxer theories. What you can do is find sources that discuss these studies within a AAH context and use those. And please remember to sign your posts. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:47, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Hmm Neil, I would agree with you, except that the finger wrinkling topic has been so embedded in AAT evidence for so many decades. Even the picture has been on the page for years, so it's not like we just thought of it now. The anti-vaxxer movement came from one fraudulent doctor who made a study on a group of less than ten children and then presented the results in such a way to make a quick buck for himself. Conversely, the fingertip wrinkling has been a central tenet of AAT for many decades, and no other alternative has been put forward to explain it except "byproduct of evolution" or "spandrels". We also don't stand to make any profit from this, unlike Andrew Wakefield. We are just interested in the science.

I assume you're quite busy editing a number of pages, so maybe you didn't have time to read any of the links. So I will present a few quotes from the sources demonstrating links to AAT:

"Wrinkled fingers could have helped our ancestors to gather food from wet vegetation or streams" - This is pretty much what AAT is. AAT is commonly misconstrued as being wholly aquatic such as dolphins or whales, but it's not the case.

"This information has piqued the interest of those who subscribe to the Aquatic Ape Hypothesis (AAH), which claims that ancestral apes lived in water at least part of the time. Others, however, dismiss the idea, as these adaptations could have come from water being ever present in the environment without spending as much time in it as proponents of AAH would say" - again, a balanced argument, showing both sides. Would be good if Wikipaedia could do the same

Aquapess (talk) 16:05, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Ah sorry Neil, there was no response, so I assumed that the above recent, high profile sources had proved the link to AAT.

Actually, it's ok if you delete this section. By clipping away at the article, you're actually reducing key words that lead to traffic on this page, and instead it will push curious people to sites like Nature or IFLS who are not frightened of discussing AAT even if they oppose it. It will also lead people to go to the fingertip page on wiki, which lays out the two studies on whether or not it confers and advantage in wet environments, and allow people to make up their own mind given the evidence, without the aggressively anti-AAT stance.

It would actually be more advantageous for you to keep the section on fingertips and just put greater emphasis on the article that didn't demonstrate an advantage in wet environments. But by removing the words "fingertip wrinkling" Google will lead curious people elsewhere. I feel stupid pointing this out to you, because as a wiki administrator for many years, I'm sure you must be intelligent enough to understand this. Nevertheless, we have to stand by the admin's choices.Aquapess (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

First, I'm not acting as an admin here. With respect to this article, I'm a regular editor just like yourself. Second, I am completely uninterested in "key words". Having key words does not appear in any Wikipedia policy or guideline so your not-so-subtle attempts at reverse psychology fall flat. Third, please acquaint yourself with WP:SYNTH again. "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." If you want to say these studies support AAT, then find a source that explicitly says so. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 08:13, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

This WP:SYNTH - on that basis, you could remove the entire content of the page if you held that to account on every paragraph. For example, the Lancet article cited about the medical advantages of water births makes no mention of AAT, but the fact that it is safe and has been shown to be advantageous means that it is mentioned on this page. Will you delete that too? In that case, why not take a fine toothed comb to remove all such sentences and references?

Lastly, reverse psychology or not, you've got to admit that there's something hilarious about a grown man being afraid of a couple of sentences on fingertips (which appear almost word for word, reference for reference already on another wiki page without causing anyone any offense). If you're going to delete my section, at least let me poke a little fun. Aquapess (talk) 09:22, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Pruny Fingers Are An Evolutionary Advantage is I think okay for inclusion as they draw the connection and it looks like a reliable secondary source. The rest of them are better sources for their topics but including them would I'm afraid constitute OR as they just have not drawn a close enough connection with the topic of this article. It would also be reasonable to link to Finger#Fingertip_wrinkling_in_water for a description of the effect. Dmcq (talk) 09:28, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for checking Dmcq, yes, the references used were recent and reliable. Two of them were taken from the Finger wiki entry, so if they are acceptable there, why are they not acceptable here?

I also agree with your second point, best thing would be to link to the Finger page, via a link as I did in the second sentence of the passage, or as a direct quote, I don't mind whichever is deemed more appropriate Aquapess (talk) 09:55, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

The other links about fingertip wrinkling would have to have a more direct reference to the topic to satisfy WP:OR. The source has to draw the connection rather than an editor on Wikipedia. They are about fingertip wrinkling so they are appropriate in an article about fingers. The don't point out a connection to the aquatic ape hypothesis so they can't go here. Dmcq (talk) 10:31, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks for your considered and polite reply Dmcq. So basically, the IFLS reference which DOES specify link to AAT doesn't count I gather, so it wouldn't be possible to paraphrase to something like:

• Finger wrinkling:

  

  Finger and toe wrinkling is controlled by the sympathetic nervous system in response to water immersion.

  A recent study found that the finger wrinkling gave an advantage in handling objects but only in wet conditions, in the same way as tyre treads help to avoid slipping on wet roads.. Supporters of AAH believe this to be further evidence of human feature adapted to living in wet conditions. However, a subsequent study in 2014 attempting to reproduce these results was unable to demonstrate any improvement of handling wet objects with wrinkled fingertips. and there is no current consensus as to the evolutionary purpose for this trait.

I have shortened it, and put both sides forward, with no leaning towards either side. Aquapess (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Hmm very odd Dmcq, I just found a section in the archives where you previously okayed the addition of this topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aquatic_ape_hypothesis/Archive_6#Illustrations_of_finger_and_feet_wrinkling — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquapess (talk • contribs) 21:06, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I am unable to figure out what you are trying to say. Could you phrase it without things like 'very off' which I could not find on the web thanks. What are you trying to say by 'So basically, the IFLS reference which DOES specify link to AAT doesn't count I gather, so it wouldn't be possible to paraphrase to something like:'. I thought I said that was okay as a source for this article, are there extra not's in there which don't count as a negative? Dmcq (talk) 22:01, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

So sorry Dmcq, I made a typo in my original reply, and I think when I went to correcting it you were also editing the page, so my corrections were not saved. I meant to say "odd", in the sense that you said it was ok before, I wonder why it got deleted since then?

Also, I got confused when you said "They are not about AAH, so they can't go here" - I thought that meant that you had decided that the passage was not appropriate for adding to this page afterall. So if you are happy to add the section to the main AAH article, please go ahead with whichever format you think is best. I am reluctant to make any changes to the page now in case I get reported for edit warring or something. Aquapess (talk) 22:21, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi Dmcq, thanks for the edit, looks great. It's good that you put the link to the fingertip wrinkling as well, as discussed. Personally, I really like this topic, not only because it's physiologically interesting, but it also supports the idea that AAT isn't about being in the water 100% of the time, since our fingers only wrinkle in response to water exposure. If AAT really was about being wholly aquatic like dolphins or whales as is commonly misinterpreted, then our fingers would be wrinkled all the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquapess (talk • contribs) 16:36, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

References

Occam's razor

The attractiveness of believing in simplistic single-cause explanations over the much more complex, but better-supported models with multiple causality has been cited as a primary reason for the popularity of the idea with non-experts.

Er, Occam's razor, anyone? Viriditas (talk) 22:04, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

The clue here is 'better supported'. An explanation which isn't supported by verifiable evidence may be simple - that doesn't make it right. Maybe the wording could do with tweaking though. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:42, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

The source is also 18 years old. Viriditas (talk) 22:59, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Very much enjoy it when anti-AATers say "better supported" and then offer no examples. Yet to find any evidence that "better supports" why humans are the only great apes with deposition of significant subcutaneous fat and loss of hair cover, more common in our aquatic mammal distant cousins — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquapess (talk • contribs) 10:11, 9 September 2015 Aquapess (talk) 10:21, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

On a further note Andy, one of your favourite comments is that AAT can't be true because there's a general consensus at the moment - that doesn't make it wrong either. Copernicus and Heliocentricism anyone? How about Semmelweis and hand washing? It was his own fellow doctors that insisted he was wrong and millions of people died as a result, and he died peniless in a mental assylum. Think how also contentious it was only 20 years ago to believe that birds evolved from dinosaurs. Revolutions are made by thinking outside the box, not going along with the status quo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquapess (talk • contribs) 9 September 2015‎

Firstly, I have never stated that "AAT can't be true because there's a general consensus", and secondly, comparisons with Copernicus are ten-a-penny on Wikipedia article talk pages. Every other purveyor of snake-oil, perpetual-motion-machines and 'new physics to prove Einstein wrong' claims to be Copernicus reincarnated. They can't all be right, and accordingly Wikipedia has to stick with the tried and tested method of waiting for the revolution, and then reporting what is in orbit around where. And frankly, as 'revolutions' go, one that merely overturns the scientific consensus on how wet our distant ancestors got doesn't seem that revolutionary. Maybe though that is merely a jaded perspective of one who once actually believed in changing the future, rather than the past (not that I succeeded in either). AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:31, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Is there a specific edit to the article someone wishes to propose? Otherwise this appears clearly to be WP:NOTFORUM and should be closed. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:55, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Do editorial changes have to be specific? Or can the general thrust of the article be discussed? Isn't the discussion about what the point of view of the article should be? Should the article help pooh-pooh the theory? Or strike a more neutral tone?173.173.20.99 (talk) 04:45, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Another example of revolutionary change in scientific orthodoxy is plate tectonics. lack of an overt statement that AAH must be wrong because the scientific consensus says so, does not alter the fact that that is at least part of the overall thrust of the article as it now stands. The Occam's razor point seems a strong one to me. And being grumpy and disappointed is in itself not an argument ... so my children often tell me, anyway ... 80.17.36.33 (talk) 13:53, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Article outdated in name and content

This article is outdated both in its name and approach. I have just listened to part 1 of a BBC radio 4 programme at [14] by David Attenborough, which states that it is now called the "Waterside ape theory", and is increasingly accepted by mainstream scientists. (Part 2 of the radio program on the latest evidence is tomorrow 15 September.) The subject is outside my field, but is very important in human evolution and badly needs rewriting by someone competent. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:11, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

I have so looked forward to this programm, remembering the laughter that David Attenborough faced going to a symposium on the subject a couple of years ago. At the moment a redirect would be the first step, one that I will try to do (1st time), and it will be interesting to see what all the blog writers now say about the possibility of the hypothesis being feasible.Edmund Patrick – confer 09:28, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Reference to peer reviewed paper in a reputable scholarly journal please? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 09:33, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Waterside ape theory search will give this page as first choice. Not sure redirect necessary? Edmund Patrick – confer 09:36, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

NeilN No peer papers found yet but [this link] to the programme will have to do at thye moment, if you can listen to it, not sure where you are geographicially! Edmund Patrick – confer 09:43, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

And does Attenborough refer to peer reviewed papers? Otherwise, he's not qualified to make the determination. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 09:48, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

He does, quite a few times, in relationship to particular parts of the theory alongside those for the theory as a whole. Edmund Patrick – confer 09:57, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Okay, if you could provide the names of the papers and the journals they appear in then we could probably dig them up. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 10:01, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Attenborough has been promoting this for years, nothing new in that. The claim that it is "gaining traction" is unsubstantiated and unsubstantiatable because it is not true.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 10:04, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Today's programme was on the history of the controversy, tomorrow's on the latest research. Checking the papers (and maybe books) of the scientists interviewed should provide reliable sources. 10:07, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

I predict it is going to be research by the same little group of scientists who have been pushing the theory on this very page for the past decade or so - Vanechoutte, Kuliakis, Verhaegen.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 10:14, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Just so no one jumps ahead, if you want this article renamed, a requested move discussion will have to occur. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 10:15, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Beginning to collate a list, and great to see that “At the heart of science is an essential tension between two seemingly contradictory attitudes--an openness to new ideas, no matter how bizarre or counter-intuitive they may be, and the most ruthless skeptical scrutiny of all ideas, old and new.” is still relevent! Edmund Patrick – confer 10:12, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

A start - Episode one papers after one repeat listen on way to work!!! May not be complete and times into programme are in brackets.

• Columbia Earth Institute 2010 (04.30)in reference to percentage of humanity that lives in coastal region.
• Scientific American 2010 (25.22) University of Arizona cover story Early Human Dependence on Shellfish on coast of South Africa in ref to recent - 160,000 years ago - history.
• Scars of Evolution - series 2004 - (39.32) testable predictions in this case Vernix caseosa

is this what you are looking for? Hopefully others will add and it will at least improve the article. Edmund Patrick – confer 10:55, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

No, those are all popular press coverage, what would be required would be actual peer reviewed academic articles suggesting that any version of the Aquatic hypothesis has serious backing in the paleoanthropological scientific community.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:37, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

My limited research on Scientific American was to their website - which may well be lies - "Generally speaking, Scientific American and Scientific American MIND present ideas that have already been published in the peer-reviewed technical literature. We do not publish new theories or results of original research." and of course in this particular case especially so. Columbia Earth Institute is part of Columbia University, hopefully for student numbers they are popular, even so I would like to think they took professional care as to what they and the scientists involved published especially if not peer reviewed. Actually (although I have a form of dylexic so in my case my reading is sometimes open to misinterpretation, so apologies if so, but) the peer review does not have to have serious backing in the paleoanthropological scientific community, what it must do is peer review research into the theory it does not need to back it.Edmund Patrick – confer 12:59, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

No, those are popular science outlets that publish articles of interest to the general reader. This kind of publication is never a reliable or useful gyuide to the scientific standing of any particular theory. Unless supported by sources published in respected academic journals there is no basis whatsoever for claiming that any kind of aquatic evolutionary scenario is gaining acceptance. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 13:20, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

On an issue such as this there will be peer-reviewed articles on both sides. Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (natural sciences) points out that such articles often report the author's own research, and should be treated with caution as primary sources. The guidance also says that articles in Scientific American are often summaries of a field by a recognised expert; we have to look at each source on its merits, not adopt hard and fast rules. In this case, there are experts on both sides of the argument, so we should be reporting both sides, not taking a POV view that the theory is wrong, as the article does now. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:41, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

There really isnt. You are misrepresenting the status of the hypothesis in your comment. There are no major experts of human evolution that support the AAH - this is simply false. The one actual expert who did was the late Philip Tobias. There are hardly any peer reviewed articles on the AAH: Vaneechoutte, Verhaegen and Kuliakis have recently published a few articles in minor peer reviewed journals and organized a conference on the topic that they have promoted very much (but which didnt feature support from any major experts), but these articles and conference do not show that the theory is gaining traction - and there are vastly many more sources that completely ignore the AAH (you will not find AAH mentioned in any textbooks on human evolution for example or in reviews of advances in the field). You need to read some more actual sources about human evolution and paleoanthropology (reliable academic review articles or textbooks rather than popular science articles which are notorious for pushing interestingnew findings and theories and ignoreing more boring mainstream views and established knowledge) before you make claims about the relative scientific support. This is a VERY clear fringe hypothesis with almost zero percent scientific standing. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 06:10, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

It is true that the theory is generally ignored in popular books on human evolution. I have read many books by Chris Stringer, Ian Tattersall, Donald Johanson, Spencer Wells etc, and it is rarely referred to. However that does not mean that it lacks heavyweight support. Attenborough's programme had quotes from Richard Wrangham, professor of human evolution at Harvard, saying humans learnt to walk bipedally in water; Michael Crawford, director of the institute of brain chemistry and human nutrition at Imperial College, saying that marine foods were necessary to the expansion of the brain (and a quote from Stringer disagreeing); Will Archer of the Max Planck Institute of Evolutionary Anthropology saying that human ancestors were eating catfish 2 million years ago; Professor Naama Goren-Inbar of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem saying that diet at the 700,000 year old Gesher Benot Ya'aqov site in Israel included marine nuts which required diving several metres. One resarcher had trawled the Journal of Human Evolution for references to marine resources. She found almost nothing up to 2002, then a gradual increase until 2014 when they had a special issue on aquatic resources and their importance for human brain evolution. This special issue should be a good place to look at the state of expert opinion. It is obviously a minority view, but one held by serious scientists. The Wiki article at present reads like a blog by an opponent, not an encyclopedia article. It needs revision by someone with no axe to grind on either side. I do not intend to take it on as I am almost the only editor working on Anglo-Saxon history and there are plenty of people interested in evolution. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:28, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes the fact that a theory is ignored by summaries of the mainstream view does mean that a view lacks support. It is indeed the best possible evidence. I have not seen Wrangham argueing that human bidpedality is an adaptation to water - if he believes this then presumably he has published this somewhere in a peer reviewed - which would certainly be a notable proponent. So please bring a source that is actually by Wrangham to the table. Evidence of prehistoric humans eating crustaceans, catfish or other marine foods is not the AAH - which specifically posits adaptations to a watery milieu. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 11:56, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

As I said, I do not want to divert from working on Anglo-Saxon history. Hopefully someone will do the research to make the article more balanced. Otherwise it will remain a one-sided argument against the theory. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:19, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Given the theory's standing it would be hard for it not to read as an argument against the theory and observe WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:25, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Also I think it is necessary to separate the AAH hypothesis (which suggests that water has been the origin of a suit of specific adaptations - the umbrella hypothesis) from the idea that water and occasional wading may have been related to one or a couple of specific adaptations. Certainly serious scholars may entertain the second scenario, but not the first.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:41, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Dudley Miles for the work in providing a informative description of the second episode. It is true that the article is not neutral in its words and presentation, though like you there is limitations to what I can do, and I would have an axe to grind, mainly the total denial of any possibility of this theory being correct or partly correct and given obviously the number of scientists and/or professors that have just committed a foolish mistake of expressing support for parts of the theory I am not alone. It has and I am sure will continue to lead to wonderful evening conversations with fellow workers especially archaeologists! Once I have finished my work on Mathew Hopkins and Edmund the Martyr I may well take a deep breath and.....Edmund Patrick – confer 12:29, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I am very glad to hear you are working on Edmund. I know very little about East Anglian history. Any chance of seeing it at FAC? I aim to get Æthelflæd to FAC soon. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:04, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

moved conversation to my talk page more appropiate. Edmund Patrick – confer 14:40, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

• I found this article by Wrangham, Cheney, Seyfarth and Sarmiento in which they do propose that lacustrine wading (in a savannah context!) provided necessary preadaptations for bipedality. "Wrangham, Richard, Dorothy Cheney, Robert Seyfarth, and Esteban Sarmiento. "Shallow‐water habitats as sources of fallback foods for hominins." American Journal of Physical Anthropology 140, no. 4 (2009): 630-642." This is however part of his somewhat theory about underground storage organs (tubers) being an important resource for early hominins - so it is hard to assess how the reception of the idea has been. It has 70 citations on google scholar, but I havent looked through them.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Link to site with malware

The sentence "Conversely, both Morgan and Algis Kuliukas have accused Moore of distorting Morgan and other AAH-proponents presentations from the debate, using only little referencing" is followed by two citations. The first of these needs to be removed. When I clicked on it, my browser left a message stating, "The site ahead contains malware Attackers currently on www.elainemorgan.me.uk might attempt to install dangerous programs on your computer that steal or delete your information (for example, photos, passwords, messages, and credit cards)." FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 10:03, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I’ve added a Wayback Machine URL from a few months before the given access date. More recent captures suggest the site has been unmaintained or abandoned for the last year or two.—Odysseus1479 15:32, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:37, 16 September 2016 (UTC)