Talk:Bulgarians in Albania

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Neutrality[edit]

The references are not neutral but they are Bulgarian so it is not relevant. Officially in Albania there are no Bulgarians and this article has too much BG propaganda.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 21:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Albania recognises only one slavic population- and they are Macedonians. Read Albanian official sources. --Raso mk (talk) 22:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Go, look at Macedonians in Albania, tidy it up, and then come with such comments here. --Laveol T 22:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"More than 800 Albanian citizens of Bulgarian descent have acquired Bulgarian passports". Wow... From now on we will not going to talk about the Bulgarians in the USA because they have American passports and they are now Americans and do not have any kind of relationship with Bulgaria or Bulgarian culture --Raso mk (talk) 22:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They have go BG passports on account of their Bulgarian origin. Basic logic. Enough with the forum already - have you got any constructive remarks to this or the other relevant article? --Laveol T 22:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please read some relevant documents such as reports of the EU and reports of the USA but not some imaginative BG web sites. You are here just to spread your propaganda, go in forums and do such things there not here.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 22:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Everything is properly sourced. If you have any valid objections state them - if not stop using the talkpage as a forum. And stop playing with the indents - the talkpage should be readable. --Laveol T 22:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ha ha ha, you are good in spreading away propaganda. Are you studying a faculty for spreading away a national stupid propaganda? --MacedonianBoy (talk) 22:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For the last time - Stop offending me and using this talkpage as a forum. If you don't do this, I'll inform the administrators. I'm not willing to play with you. --Laveol T 22:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
wow --MacedonianBoy (talk) 22:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read WP:TALK and cut it out. --Laveol T 22:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Laveol pls stop offending and atacking others. No one said something offending here (except yours atacks).--Raso mk (talk) 22:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The comment about the faculty of stupid national propaganda by MacedonianBoy was enough. Now focus on the article or use my talkpage. --Laveol T 22:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually what is wrong with macedonians in albania, there is only 2 sentences with irrendentist claims near the middle of the page. You have featured it prominently in the title. Many inhabitants of the Gora region are known as Torbeshi, whose number has been estimated at c. 40,000 - 120,000.[4] External estimates on the population of ethnic Macedonians in Albania include 10,000,[5] whereas ethnic Macedonian sources have claimed that there are 120,000 - 350,000 ethnic Macedonians in Albania [6][7] Also is it really relevent statements by ex politicians who have little or no understanding of either macedonian or bulgarian. I have been to pustec myself, there is no bulgarian school. It is really POV. Oh, and the CIA fact book clams that 2.5% of bulgaria is macedonian, would you accept that on the macedonians in bulgaria page?[1][2][3], If you are willing to put up about the bulgarians in albania, are you willing to put up about the macedonians in bulgaria? P m kocovski (talk) 23:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a question of what I like or I don't. It's a question of what is or was. You already created an entire POV and mostly OR article about Macedonians in Albania (it should be Ethnic btw) and you have remarks about this one?!--Laveol T 14:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it shouldnt be ethnic as there is no other population to distinguish the macedonians from, unlike in greece or bulgaria where some people claim a regional macedonian identity, in albania people do not claim this, as in the deep south of serbia. Also what is so POV about it? it only claims that ~5,000 people are macedonians, unlike the bulgarians page where an estimate of 50,000 is given. Well macedonians estimate there is 100,000 macedonians in albania, should this be written down as well??? Also why is it relevant what some chauvinistic albanian politician has to say?, i have been to pustec there is no bulgarian school there! And please stop quoting the pro-bulgarian figures and bulgarian government becuase that is hardly neutral P m kocovski (talk) 06:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
the albanian king ahmet zogu signed a treaty with the bulgarian king boris about protection of bulgarian ethnicity in albania. that was a very well organized plan to erase macedonians because the people of debor, kukes, korca and mala prespa consider themselves as ethnic macedonians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.227.203 (talk) 15:03, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
and the number of macedonians in albania is incorrect because they have a status of macedonians only in mala prespa. once they live that region they are considered as albanians. many go to tirana for a better living, many to italy or to tessaloniki. than, they are not macedonians anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.227.203 (talk) 15:10, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact92/wf930044.txt
  2. ^ http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact95/wf950039.htm
  3. ^ http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/wofact98/43.htm#people

Wording[edit]

During the second Balkan Conference in 1932 the Bulgarian and Albanian delegations signed a Protocol about recognition of ethnic Bulgarian minority in Albania.[4] After the Second World War, the creation of People's Republic of Macedonia and the policy of the new Communist states about the founding of Balkan Federative Republic changed the situation and an ethnic Macedonian minority[5][6] was officially recognized. Schools and radio stations in Macedonian were founded in the area.[5].

Do the sources actually say that a Bulgarian minority was recognised as a Macedonian minority? If not, it is just some original research. BalkanFever 08:15, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm, the text doesn't state that. It says Albania recognised a Bulgarian minority and that after the founding of People's Republic of Macedonia it recognised an ethnic Macedonian minority. It does not say that Bulgarians were recognized as ethnic Macedonians, but that an ethnic Macedonian minority was recognized (which is the case).--Laveol T 12:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
TOO MANY BLOGS AS REFERENCES ON THIS PAGE. IT IS NOT ACCEPTED: AND MANY REFERENCES ARE INCORRECT.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 22:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Stop shouting, please. Which are the problem sources? --Laveol T 22:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The 7th, 8th and the first one look like and they are blogs.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 08:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bulgarians in Albania are Bulgarians living in nowadays Albania and most particularly in Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo. What kind of sentence is this? Bulgarians in Albania are Bulgarians.....--MacedonianBoy (talk) 08:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, they're not blogs. Do you know what a Blog is? --Laveol T 09:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I know, but they are typical BG blogs, where the Bulgarian propaganda is spread away.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 10:16, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bulgarians in Albania are ethnic Bulgarians living in nowadays Albania and most particularly in Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo. Ethnic, how this come? Ethnic can be only the neighboring nations, not a nation that is separated from Albania with another country.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 10:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are kidding. Ethnic is ethnic. Just like ethnic Macedonians. Stop making up things. --Laveol T 10:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sory but i steel dont see any sources????We shoud discuss about deleteation of this article,becous it has no sence!!!There is no Bulgarian minorety in Albania,and it is stated by Albanian govermant and Albanian Helssingi organisation!!!The only Bolgarian thing is Bolagrian passports given in Bulgarian propaganda,of denideing Macedonian ethnicety!!DO YOU NEED Sorces of this state,i meen if is valid Bulgarian newspaper and Bulgarian foregin ministery,i can find at least 10 sorces like that,confirming my writteing!Makedonij (talk) 16:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Try in English next time, seriously. I can't figure out most of the stuff you write. --Laveol T 17:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is no Bulgarians in Albania and this article shoud be deleted,becouse it is not an article,it is just what you call propaganda,i all ready give you infos Here.the only Bulgarian thing in Albania are Bulgarian passports!And then you will say in few years we miss a lot of Bulgarians!!!

Delete[edit]

  • This article shoud be removed becouse it is only spreading false informations,and spreads Bulgarian idea of San Stefano Bulgaria.Makedonij (talk) 08:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge?[edit]

Could a solution to the dispute be a merger of the Bulgarians in Albania and Macedonians in Albania into a Slavic minority in Albania article? --Soman (talk) 21:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No Macedonians are recognised minority and Bulgarians are not,and state of Albania is that there are no Bulgarians in Albania,you can say what you think

here--Makedonij (talk) 21:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the two articles used to be one, but then some users insisted on having two POV forks of one and the same thing. I am for. --Laveol T 22:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

misleading statements[edit]

  • CIA Factbook The CIA World Factbook supports these claims pointing to the 1989 census- Actually here are the results of the 1989 census[1], A combined number of 782 persons were of Romanian, Bulgarian and Czechoslovakian nationality.
  • 50,000 Bulgarians- State Agency for Bulgarians Abroad states that about 40,000 to 50,000 persons with Bulgarian origin are living in Albania that may be very well but the agency also claims that there are 300,000 bulgarians in america and 1,300,000 in macedonia, obviously unreliable and should not feature in the Second Sentence.
  • Politicians statements- “I wouldn’t like to offend anyone who would call himself a Macedonian, but in the territory near Lake Prespa there is a school instructing in Bulgarian”.- Alexander Meksi Politicians statements are really uneccesary in such a politically tense issue, even when the statement is coming from an anti-macedonian figure. Bulgarians claim Macedonians dont exist, so do Greeks. Greeks claim the macedonian language is a bulgarian dialect. Hardly objective information.

The Article focuses on the macedonians in albania as much as it focuses on the bulgarians. It seems like an attempt at proving that these people exist and that they number in the tens of thousands. This is not encylpedic and should be revised. PMK1 (talk) 09:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • It says what it says - the CIA factbook is used in the article Ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria in the same way - let me remind you you were the one that put it there.
  • No, the Agency doesn't say anything about 1,3 mill Bulgarians in RoM - stop making up things.
  • Why are they irrelevant? Categorizing the Slavic-speaking inhabitants of Albania as ethnic Macedonians is a political decision so why should the opinion of politicians that do not agree be excluded? --Laveol T 12:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So what is classifying people as Macedonians also a political decsision? No the Bulgarian government does, which runs the agency. Please accept others POV. And only 782 people in total claime either bulgarian, romanian and czechoslovakian nationality in an official census! this does belong in the first paragrapgh. PMK1 (talk) 06:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removing website[edit]

does anyone object if i were to remove the link to the website?? PMK1 (talk) 00:41, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes - what's the problem with it now? Let me guess - you don't like it. --Laveol T 11:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
no i dont have a problem with it. But it is only a page under constuction? It doesnt even give information or anything. PMK1 (talk) 05:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It has tons of info on the subject in English. --Laveol T 12:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Video materials[edit]

Bulgarians in Albania Jingby (talk) 12:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bot report : Found duplicate references ![edit]

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

  • "see" :
    • [http://www.southeasteurope.org/documents/0009albminorities.pdf “ON THE STATUS OF THE MINORITIES IN THE REPUBLIC OF ALBANIA”], Albanian [[Helsinki Committee]] with support of the Finnish Foundation ‘KIOS’ and “Finnish NGO Foundation for Human Rights”. Hosted at SEE developed by the Applied Research and Communications Fund in [[Sofia]] (www.arc.online.bg) under a two-year project sponsored by the U.S. Agency for International Development [[USAID]].
    • [http://www.southeasteurope.org/documents/0009albminorities.pdf “ON THE STATUS OF THE MINORITIES IN THE REPUBLIC OF ALBANIA”], Albanian [[Helsinki Committee]] with support of the Finnish Foundation ‘KIOS’ and “Finnish NGO Foundation for Human Rights”. Hosted at SEE developed by the Applied Research and Communications Fund in [[Sofia]] (www.arc.online.bg) under a two-year project sponsored by the U.S. Agency for International Development [[USAID]]

DumZiBoT (talk) 19:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Monument for the future generations[edit]

I only relatively recently found out this article had been nominated for deletion by Macedonist followers of Propagandalf. May it be noted that this has ever been done and may it be remembered. Just look at the "delete" voters, their claims are laughable :) Some excerpts to be remembered by the following generations, they should be taught at university as prime examples of modern philosophy:


Heartbreaking. Todor→Bozhinov 14:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

POV[edit]

I cannot realize how this article is not deleted? As far as I know there is no BG in Albania and the people to whom this article is reffered are Macedonians. This is nothing but POV.-- MacedonianBoy  Oui? 17:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And also the references are all from BG newspapers, articles and such things which are not neutral. We need neutral POV not this so called sources.-- MacedonianBoy  Oui? 17:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you actually elaborate what about the neutrality of the article you're disputing, because all I see above is blatant nonsense? What exactly about the article is POV? The fact that half of the references are foreign, some are Macedonian, and most of the Bulgarian sources are well-researched history books by the International Center for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations? Which of the facts are you disputing in particular? Do you actually believe anything you're saying? Todor→Bozhinov 18:45, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
References from newspapers or whatever they are from are not neutral. Also, the BG references are not neutral and you cannot achieve something with them. The Albanian state recognizes only Macedonian population in Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo, not BG. The population that you are saying is Bg is not and it is true. Rewrite the article.-- MacedonianBoy  Oui? 18:51, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are you kiding? If no, go away! Jingby (talk) 06:44, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive editing[edit]

Please, stop deleting a lot of sourced information, without any discussion. Thank you! Jingby (talk) 09:22, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The information removed is purely speculation about whether the group exists or not. It does not actually speak about Bulgarians in albania rather the concept of Bulgarians living in Albania. Just because it is sourced does not mean that it belongs here. I left the information regarding the cultural organisations because it is a concrete example, not merely speculation. Furthermore San Stefano never took effect, Golo Brdo was never made apart of Bulgaria. Census data regarding "Romanian, Czechoslovakian or Bulgarian nationality" is also generally irrelevant, if you want this to remain you should move the article to Bulgarian citizens in Albania, as opposed to indigenous people from Albania who identify as Bulgarians. Lunch for Two (talk) 07:16, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All this people are Albanian citizens and part of them are with second Bulgarian citizenship, i.e. they are born in Albania and received Bulgarian passports on a ground of declaration, they are Bulgarians by birth. There exist two organisations of the Bulgarians in Albania: "Prosperitet — Golo Brdo" and the cultural association "Ivan Vazov" in Mala Prespa. What is your problem? Jingby (talk) 08:30, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In 1989 the Bulgarian government did not give out passports to people living in Albania. These figures are Bulgarians from Bulgaria living in Albania, along with Romanians and Czechoslovaks.
Furthermore, comments from Albanians living in Macedonia labelling all Macedonians as Bulgarians does not actually discuss the minority. In fact all of the quotations discuss the idea of Bulgarians living in Albania and have nothing to say about the Bulgarians at all. What is their point? Do not dodge this question. Lunch for Two (talk) 11:27, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do not delete any sourced content from this article without consensus, or I am going to report you. Thank you. Jingby (talk) 13:39, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Lack of stable ethnic consciousness"[edit]

What evidence is there that a lack of stable ethnic consciousness exists? One only needs to read Macedonians in Albania as an example of how these people to assert their own existence. Unless it can be shown that these people have no stable ethnic consciousness this sentence ought to be removed per WP:FRINGEVIEW. Lunch for Two (talk) 11:34, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing is fringe. From more then 100,000 Slavic-speakers in Albania, less then 5,000 self-identify as Macedonians. The vast majority are with Albanian identification. Jingby (talk) 11:56, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have proof of this? There is no solid/NPOV evidence that there are 100,000 Macedonian speakers in Albania, and furthermore the last census counted Macedonians only in 1 municipality. In the other municipalities people were listed as simply Albanians, the same occured for Greeks outside of the designated Greek minority zones, are we now to conclude that the Greek-speaking people outside of these zones also have an unstable ethnic consicousness? Lunch for Two (talk) 13:07, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

edit war[edit]

Rather than blocking the disputants, I've reverted to the July version before this started and protected the article. If you are unable to work together as colleagues, then go to dispute resolution and have somebody babysit. Meanwhile, if there are non-contentious edits that need to be made, tell me here and I can add them in. — kwami (talk) 10:07, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing that the edit-war goes on, I have to ask user Lunch for Two about the exact problem wit hthe text he continues to remove. I see that he does not like it, but other than that, what is the issue with it? Is it not true? Or is it something else? --Laveol T 13:18, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, this is factually incorrect. "In 1878, the Slavic-inhabited regions of Mala Prespa and Golo Bardo were ceded to Bulgaria according to the Treaty of San Stefano[22] and were under the jurisdiction of the Bulgarian Exarchate.[23]". Those areas were not ceded to Bulgaria, the treaty did not take effect.
And Secondly, this information is either wrong or opinionated POV. "...Other officially recognised Slavs in Albania include Macedonians, Montenegrins and the Gorani people. The Bulgarian government and some of the people in the regions in question claim that a Bulgarian minority does exist.[2][28] The CIA World Factbook also supports the existence of the minority based on a 1989 estimate.[29] In the 1989 Albania census a total of 782 people claimed either Romanian, Czechoslovakian or Bulgarian nationality.[30][dead link] In 1998 Paskal Milo, the then-foreign minister of Albania, gave the following answer to the minority puzzle: "After World War II, we know this minority as Macedonian. I’d rather not elaborate on why we chose this way, but the Communist regime made this decision and it’s difficult for us now to change that."[31] Recent official reports from Albania have not stated that any people have identified as Bulgarian in the last census.[32] This often led to protests from the Bulgarian Parliament.[33] Arben Xhaferi, the president of the Democratic Party of Albanians in Republic of Macedonia stated in an interview for Albanian newspaper Shekulli in 2006 that in his opinion the Slavic-speaking inhabitants of Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo are Bulgarians, he is known for referring to ethnic Macedonians as Bulgarians.[34]...According to the Macedonian authorities, the Slav minority of Albania consists only of ethnic Macedonians and not Bulgarians. In 2008, the Bulgarian government reported it had reached an agreement with the Albanian government that the next census forms in Albania would allow to count the Bulgarian community in the country.[38][39][40]"
1. Gorani are not officially recognised, only Montenegrins and Macedonians are.
2. The rest is speculation about what some politicians believe is true, and what is not. It doesn't provide any actual information about the group and is rather POVish. I have excluded the bit about the Bulgarian organisations (given that it is relevant), but the rest should be removed imho.
3. The Albanian census will allow all minority groups to identify as such, and there is nothing specific about people wanting to write themselves Bulgarians. As far as I am aware it will be an empty "fill in here" section.
4. The CIA Factbook made an estimated based on 1989 census data? This is hardly possible, given that the census didn't record Bulgarians of Albania, only a few Bulgarian nationals grouped together with Czechoslovak and Romanian nationals. Lunch for Two (talk) 13:48, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Macedonians in Albania[edit]

Given that the article is essentially a POV spin-off from Macedonians in Albania, it should be merged into it. It is similar to Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia which was a merge between Aegean Macedonians and Slavophone Greeks, given that the two groups were essentially the same group. I see no difference here, and it seems that the only sources which go into detail about this group are Bulgarian ones, which treat ethnic Macedonians as Bulgarians anyway. Apart from scarce political allegiances is there anything which seperates the two group? No. Is this sufficient to warrant a seperate page? (It appears based on the above example, that it is not sufficient, given that the two pages were merged in the end). What are other peoples opinion on this issue? Lunch for Two (talk) 11:26, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not science-fiction forum. Jingby (talk) 11:30, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lunch for Two, I strongly disagree. I don't see in what way this article is a spin-off of Macedonians in Albania and I don't see any serious arguments for a merge. The two identities are separate and the two articles are different in content. — Toдor Boжinov — 11:40, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a difference between these 2 pages and the above parralel that I gave? At this stage, it does not appear this distinction has been made (I mean even the page constantly refers back to Macedonians in Albania).
I mean, this group identifying as Bulgarians share exactly the same language, customs and origins as the ethnic Macedonians and they cohabit the same places. Culturally, socially and linguistically they are impossible to tell apart. I agree that the two articles are different in content, that is because Bulgarians in Albania mainly focuses on a Slavic people that lived 1,000 years ago (Before the modern notions of being "Bulgarian" or "Macedonian" or "Greek" even existed), whilst Macedonians of Albania focuses on people living in the current era. Surely the chapter entitled "Middle Ages" is covered under First Bulgarian Empire, etc. Lunch for Two (talk) 12:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I do not believe merging the two articles under Macedonians of Albania would result in a fair title and portrayal of the two identities. Furthermore, even though this is not covered in the articles at present, by no means are all Bulgarians in Albania villagers from Mala Prespa and Golo Bardo, neither are all Macedonians. The two groups are not identical to warrant a single article, and not under any circumstances one titled Macedonians of Albania (because your 'merged into' tag seems to suggest exactly that). Another point is that either article currently has enough content to exist separately. — Toдor Boжinov — 13:55, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Lunch, did you go as far as reading the talkpage prior to putting forth such proposals? This article has a history of split ups and subsequent proposals for merges. Should we create a small FAQ section on it? --Laveol T 20:57, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarians in Albania are recorded since 10th century till today. Macedonians - since 1945. Stop blatant POV.Jingby (talk) 15:10, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not following what the POV is. Is there any difference? That's a fair question. Are the Slavs of Albania segregated into "Bulgarians" and "Macedonians"? Do they feel that they're ethnically distinct? Or are they just Macedo-Bulgarian Slavs? — kwami (talk) 22:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no cultural or linguistic difference between the two groups. They have the same language, customs and traditions.
To answer the second question they are not segregated in Albania. Albanian, Macedonian and the vast majority of Western Sources speak of a "Macedonian minority", whereas it is only in some Bulgarian circles that this idea regarding a 50,000 strong "Bulgarian minority" exists (this is not a suprise though seeing as they generally treat all ethnic Macedonians as ethnic Bulgarians). Furthermore the origin of the bulk of the references used clearly shows that this entire notion (for the most part) is highly POV.
For those users asserting these two groups are two different ethnic groups, what evidence is there of this? Lunch for Two (talk) 07:56, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mmm, so you are actually suggesting that Bulgarians and ethnic Macedonians are basically the same group of people? --Laveol T 08:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lol. CIA and US Departament of State are ... some Bulgarian sources..! Jingby (talk) 08:24, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As Jingby stated above the controversy was created after 1945. Up to that moment they were recognized as Bulgarians by the Albanians and Albanian state (see Poulton 2000, p 79). However with the creation of Socialist Republic of Macedonia (under Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) their legal status changed from Bulgarian minority to Macedonian minority. Officially they were called Macedonians disregarding the fact that the day before they were called Bulgarians. However to Albanian people things changed more slowly. Nowadays the majority of Albanian population call them Macedonians, however there are also quite a lot of Albanians who call them Bulgarians. A lot of politicians had played with the term Bulgarians or Macedonians especially after the fall of communism. The same disputes over Bulgarian or Macedonian identity which took place between respective states, took place also among this community in Albania. Even within a closely linked community such as a small village, some prefer to be called Macedonians some Bulgarians and this was influenced also by the incentive politics of FYROM and Bulgaria. As stated in the article some did even got the Bulgarian citizenship (an eg would be a close friend of mine which also studied in Bulgaria with a scholarship, but he was born and lives in Tirana, not in those areas). Facts are that up to 1945 they were called Bulgarians, from 1945-1991 they were called Macedonians, from 1991 - 2011 the same community is called by Bulgarian state as Bulgarian, by FYROM as Macedonian, while for the members of the community some prefer to be called Bulgarians and some Macedonians. Maybe a merge with redirects in an article called Slavic speakers in east Albania would be more appropriate (Serbs in Albania would be a separate article). There this 1945 and on situation (controversy?) can be explained more easily. What do you think? Aigest (talk) 08:29, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Laveol, there is one only group of people, all of whom speak the Macedonian language and the local dialects and observe customs local to the area. The vast majority either have a Macedonian or Albanian ethnic consciousness, it is only Bulgarian sources which alleged that there are 50,000-100,000 Bulgarians in Albania. Surely if there was anywhere close to this number then it would have been recorded at the last census, would it not have?
Jingiby, the CIA world factbook is basing its claims on the 1989 Albanian Census. The results of the Census as listed on page 7 here show that there is no mention at all about people declaring themselves as Bulgarian whatsoever. Lunch for Two (talk) 10:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As I explained already, not all Macedonians in Albania are natives of Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo, and neither do all Bulgarians in Albania fall into this category. That is, these are NOT a single group of people. The groups may mostly overlap, though not entirely. I'm not even going to comment on the unsourced claims and original research in your latest post. — Toдor Boжinov — 13:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To quote the first line of this article "Ethnic Bulgarians in present-day Albania live mostly in the areas of Mala Prespa and Golo Bardo." Ethnic Macedonians all originate from the Western Part of the country (which is slightly larger than Mala Prespa/Golo Brdo). If these people do not originate from there, where are they then from? Where do they live?
As for the OR present in my post, it is a fact that this article writes 3 times that there have been claims of 50,000+ Bulgarians. Of course these are unsourced claims, maybe your fellow contributor Jingiby can comment why he keeps reverting back to these sources. Furthermore, these grossly inflated claims do not even remotely reflect any non-Bulgarian data (Including the Albanian census) which has been published in the past 50 years. Lunch for Two (talk) 14:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mostly is the keyword here. While certainly not as numerous, there are doubtless Bulgarians (e.g. migrants from Bulgaria, expats) who live all around Albania and who are not part of the Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo community. These people do fall within the scope of an article titled 'Bulgarians in Albania' and the census numbers include them.
As for the State Agency for Bulgarians Abroad (an official ministry-level institution of Bulgaria) number, it is relevant to the article, its origin and source is clearly labeled (it is not unsourced as you incorrectly claim) and I do not believe it is in any way misleading to the reader. 'Grossly inflated claims' is your personal opinion, which we cannot really take into account in the article. — Toдor Boжinov — 15:03, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is fine. Do you have any evidence that there has immigration from Bulgaria to Albania? The article does not even mention people who may fall under this possibility. In regards to the last 100 years the article solely discusses Bulgarians living in Mala Prespa/Golo Brdo. Lunch for Two (talk) 15:30, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, here's an article from a national newspaper that claims that "today Bulgarians live all around Albania" and gives estimates for 4–5,000 Bulgarians in Elbasan, 3–4,000 in Tirana, 2–3,000 in Durrës and 1,000 in Peshkopia. I do believe that it is for the better to keep this article as a separate piece from Macedonians of Albania. A merge makes very little sense to me. — Toдor Boжinov — 19:05, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are too many books and quotes that refer to the Slavs of south Albania as 'Bulgarians' and their language as 'Bulgarian'. There are also many Bulgarians in Bulgaria whose family originates from south Albania (as well as from northern Greece) - but for this last point I am not aware of many sources. If anyone pretends to me that is not the case and asks me for sources then they should not be editing here. I am not saying this is the final word on the issue. Politis (talk) 15:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Albania recognizes both population groups, however, Macedonians are more vocal. Unfortunately the prolonged elections delayed the census, which will be conducted in October. Then we'll evaluate the population dynamics of the two communities.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:49, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copy edited[edit]

I did some pretty heavy copy editing on this page. I considered the below sections irrelevent or unrescuable. This page would benefit from the attention of a neutral-minded expert in Albania or Bulgaria, since it seems like the article is wrtten with a distinct bias towards the Bulgarian side of the story (understandably).Zhujiangshuiguai (talk) 14:03, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

At the end of the eighteenth century, Daniel Mоscopolites, a Vlach-speaking native priest of Moscopole, compiled a quadrilingual lexicon of Greek, Vlach, Bulgarian and Albanian, with the purpose of helping speakers of these languages to learn Greek. In this work, Daniel writes "Albanians, Vlachs, Bulgarians and speakers of other tongues, rejoice and prepare yourselves one and all to become Greeks, leaving behind you your barbaric tongue, speech, and customs, that shall seem as myths to your descendants.".[1]

After the Second World War, the creation of the People's Republic of Macedonia and the Balkan Federative Republic led to the official recognition of a Bulgarian minority in Albania. ethnic Macedonian minority[2][3] was officially recognized. Schools and radio stations using the Macedonian language were founded in the area.[2]

References

  1. ^ "The Bulgarian National Awakening and its Spread into Macedonia", by Antonios-Aimilios Tachiaos, pp. 21-23, published by Thessaloniki's Society for Macedonian Studies, 1990.]
  2. ^ a b On the status of minorities in the Republic of Albania, Albanian Helsinki Committee with the support of the Finnish Foundation ‘KIOS’ and “Finnish NGO Foundation for Human Rights”
  3. ^ Finally, Albania recognizes a Greek and a Macedonian minority - Partly or Fully Unrecognized National Minorities: Statement to the UN Working Group on Minorities, 7th session, Geneva, 14-18 May 2001, Greek Helsinki Committee

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