Talk:Caning of Charles Sumner

This article was created to consolidate independent sections on the same facts from Charles Sumner, Preston Brooks, and Bleeding Kansas.

Butler stroke?

I recall someone mentioning that what really aggravated Brooks was that Butler was at that time suffering from a stroke, and that Sumner used his condition for that speech, that is, a personal slur for which Butler had no control over. Has anyone found any sources to confirm? maclilus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.3.41.79 (talk) 18:11, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Removed sentence

I've cut a (poorly written) sentence that accuses Sumner of having besmirched South Carolina's honour, etc., because it wasn't supported by the cited source and quoted something about blotting out South Carolina's history that is not, as far as I can see, in the "Crime against Kansas" speech. The nearest I can come is this allusion to the "avenging pen of history":

“ The fury of the propagandists of slavery, and the calm determination of their opponents, are now diffused from the distant Territory over wide-spread communities, and the whole country, in all its extent—marshalling hostile divisions, and foreshadowing a strife, which, unless happily averted by the triumph of Freedom, will become war—fratricidal, parricidal war—with an accumulated wickedness beyond the wickedness of any war in human annals; justly provoking the avenging judgment of Providence and the avenging pen of history, and constituting a strife, in the language of the ancient writer, more than foreign, more than social, more than civil... ”

But this of course means the opposite of blotting out pro-slavery forces from history—it means exposing (what Sumner considered) their infamy. If anybody can find the source—or otherwise elaborate on what Brooks thought about Sumner's speech—then let's have at it. Q·L·1968 ☿ 22:09, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Good decision on removing the unsupported sentence. Edward321 (talk) 16:20, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

US-specific abbreviations are not acceptable

Abbreviations which are not defined on first use are useless. But the editor User:Ad Orientem seems to believe that people around the world know all the US state abbreviations, and the abbreviations of US political parties. They do not. The user should read MOS:FIRSTOCC and WP:BIAS. 46.208.152.88 (talk) 22:57, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

The point about abbreviations makes sense, but removing the content (instead of fixing it) isn't the right course. Why not write it out? "Representative Preston Brooks, a Democrat from South Carolina, used a walking cane to attack Senator Charles Sumner, a Republican from Massachusetts and an abolitionist," (wikilinks to be added as appropriate) Schazjmd (talk) 23:12, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Sure. Do that. I improved the article and you can improve it further. That is how Wikipedia is supposed to work. 46.208.152.88 (talk) 23:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Changed it. Ad Orientem thanked me for the edit, then Berean Hunter reverted it, implying that I'm a sock, so you all figure it out - I'm done here. Schazjmd (talk) 13:16, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

No, I didn't. I was dealing with Special:Contributions/46.208.152.88.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:25, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hi Schazjmd. Thanks for your assistance here. Just to clarify, Berean Hunter was referring to the IP, who was a block evading LTA. He reverted to the status quo ante per WP:DENY. Best regards... -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:27, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

The edit was the right thing to do for a global audience. I don't see how Berean Hunter reverting my edit has anything to do with dealing with the IP. Schazjmd (talk) 13:31, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

We don't allow edits by sockpuppets and block evading IP's to stand. I have no objection if you want to restore your version, though in order to prevent confusion it might be best to do so manually (copy and paste). The IP's edits were disruptive because they were not just removing jargon, they were removing important (linked) information that was extremely pertinent to one of the more significant acts of political violence in US history. But I have no objection to spelling everything out as long as the links are included. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:37, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Per the request, "Also requesting that reviewing admin restore the article to last stable version", I looked at this edit which was the last before the IP began on this article. I restored that version from a Twinkle link which just so happened to catch your edit in the mix. I have zero problem with you restoring your edit.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:43, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Brooks relationship to Butler

@Timrollpickering: I'm not going to die on the hill of Brooks' relationship to Butler or which sources are most reliable. But if you insist on the change here, then please make the same change to the Brooks, Butler, and Sumner articles so they're all consistent.

Billmckern (talk) 19:17, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Help find that noise-some squatter

Several online sources of varying repute claim some combination of the following went down during the Crime Against Kansas speech:

1. Sumner called Douglas in private a "brutal, vulgar man without delicacy or scholarship [who] looks as if he needs clean linen and should be put under a shower bath."
2. Sumner called Douglas to his face a "noise-some, squat, and nameless animal ... not a proper model for an American senator." (U.S. Senate 1 and U.S. Senate 2 for both points above)
3. Sumner physically mocked Butler's "speech (slurred) and posture (askew)." (U of Alabama)

But none of them source it directly to period documents, letters, etc. I just wonder where it's coming from, or if anybody has seen these quotes from any peer-reviewed historians, or anything like that. These are decent sources for inclusion in most articles, but well-documented history articles sometimes have higher standards, so it's up to the history buffs who see this I guess. SamuelRiv (talk) 01:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

John Brown

I think we need a source about Brown nailing people to barn doors, as this is the first time I've heard of this detail. Also, while the caning happened before John Brown massacred the proslavers, news had not gotten to Kansas yet, and Brown just used the caning as justification after the fact. 165.201.162.178 (talk) 14:28, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Laws broken

Add a section saying what laws were broken, and if there was any prosecution. Jidanni (talk) 18:05, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jidanni: It's already in the "Aftermath" section. Brooks was convicted of assault and paid a fine. Billmckern (talk) 19:18, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Indeed there is a sidebar,

• Verdict Guilty
• Convictions Assault
• Sentence Brooks fined $300 ($9,770 in today's dollars)

And indeed as you mention in the text, it is there too.

But it needs its own subsection, else it takes an hour to find. Jidanni (talk) 21:16, 10 October 2023 (UTC)