Talk:Carol of the Bells

Carol of the Flyers

There is a variant that I loved. It was called Carol of the Flyers. Forget the bells. It used farm animals, mostly chickens. Each animal played a different part. The chickens in particular would cluck at different frequencies. Then all the sudden they all become very quiet as though they are listening to something. It's a baby (Jesus) crying. Will (Talk - contribs) 07:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

in fact, "Carol of the Flyers" is Shchedryk.

"Carol of the Bells" is different song but based on music from "Schedryk". These two songs are associated with Christmas and New Year but telling different stories. Pryaniker (talk) 08:32, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Lyric vs Lyrics

Hey folks. I know that "lyrics" is a commonly-used term for the words to a song. Should we use the word "lyric" (since it's the correct singular term), or should we use "lyrics" (the common yet incorrect term)? Just looking for a little advice on that. :) Bdevoe 18:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

wikipedia is determined by the majority, so lyrics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.35.147 (talk) 20:21, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

lyric is the term for one word of the text of the song, so if the song only had one word, "lyric" would be correct, but it has more than one, so "lyrics" is correct in this case. Just like a multi-dimensional figure has more than one metric, so we say "metrics". TarisWerewolf (talk) 10:19, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

TSO/Metallica Version

On 15 Dec 06, user 64.228.132.25 added that there was a popular rendition of Carol of the Bells as a collaboration between Trans-Siberian Orchestra and Metallica. I have been totally unable to locate any kind of reference to this. This carols is one of my favorites and if one existed, I would like to have it. :) However, I believe that it's likely a misunderstanding on 64.228.132.25's part (commonly made) and is actually just the TSO/Christmas in Sarajevo version with members of Savatage. If anyone can find a true citation for the Metallica version, I would appreciate it. Bdevoe 01:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, the reason people think Metallica is on this song is because back in the limewire days that's how it was labeled. I'm pretty sure it was just mislabeling since the song does sound like Metallica. There may have been mislabeling before limewire days, but this is the first instance I'm aware of. 10:22, 28 November 2015 (EST) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.116.232.162 (talk)

Lyrics Guidelines.

What are the rules on lyrics? It seems like the ultimate in enycopedic information about a song- the song itself. And it would do wonders for searching for a song that you only know the famous lyrics of but not the actual title, like Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme when you want Scarboroughfair/Canticle. It does seem perfect but almost every song on here doesn't have the lyrics. Most articles have links to the lyrics but not the lyrics themselves. Are they banned by any specific rule like page size, notability or even copyrite issues? I'm not suggesting we remove it, I', just curious as to why most pages don't have it. Is there a rule you could point me at?Simondrake 04:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Because most lyrics are copyrighted, there are not allowed on Wikipedia. I do not know if they would be allowed for this article, even though it is a Ukranian folk melody, but the english translation could still be under copyright. But it all depends on if the lyrics are copyrighted or not. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  19:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The English Text is indeed copyrighted by Peter Wilhousky, but I do not know when the copryright runs out. I think it was cfirsts opyrighted in 1938. 70 years would end the copyright next year. Bandurist (talk) 19:58, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Home Alone

Who actually did the Home Alone versions?

If you mean who composed them, it was John Williams, which can be easily looked up on the Home Alone article. For more and better responses, use WP:RD to ask questions. Reywas92^Talk 16:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ding Fries are Done

You guys do realize that this link simply links back to the original page, right? I mean, if someone is willing to make an article on this parody, then they can put in the link, but what use is a link that goes nowhere?Leprechaun Gamer (talk) 05:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge with Shchedryk

This piece has enough of a foothold in western culture to merit its own page. The history and relation to Shchedryk is relevant to the western translation and the page should stay separate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.175.64.91 (talk) 19:51, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. A link to the history of the original is all that is required. Keep in mind that people looking for information will not look up "Shchedryk" but look up "Carol of the Bells".

Isn't that what redirects are for? I feel like at the very least the original composition should be more prominently shown... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.58.135.71 (talk) 10:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

They share the same melody, but are different songs and so redirecting this to Shchedryk is not a useful endeavour as they are essentially different songs. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:29, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Also keep in mind that "Shchedryk" existed with two text variants made by Leontovych. The standard "Shchedryk" has a pre-Christian pagan text, the other has a christian religious text - "Tam na richtsi na Yordani" which during the period of Soviet occupation was not used in performance or publication. Bandurist (talk) 19:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Passaic, New Jersey

There is a Lemko church ic Passaic that also claims to have something to do with this song. I'll see if I can find a link. Pustelnik (talk) 14:59, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

According to Christmas Music Companion Fact Book: The Chronological History of Our Most Well-Known Traditional Christmas Hymns, Carols, Songs And the Writers & Composers Who Created Them by Dale V. Nobbman (you can find it on Google Books), Wilhousky lived in New Jersey. I question the book's credibility, though. He also says the original song, "Shchedryk", was about the popular notion that every bell in the world rang when Jesus was born. I have read that before in connection with the Wilhousky and Hohman English lyric versions, but it certainly was not the subject of the original song!162.206.141.210 (talk) 19:46, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Is this what Carol of the Old Ones is based on?

Carol of the Old Ones at YouTube

Is a terrific song about Cthulhu returning. I think it's based on Carol of the Bells and perhaps should be mentioned as well as other variants. 70.6.206.196 (talk) 22:23, 25 December 2007 (UTC) 70.6.206.196 (talk) 22:23, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes. --Boguslav (talk) 20:26, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

In Pop Culture

Regarding the Family Guy references:

• The Burger King reference is in the episode Deep Throats
• Peters christmas album is called: "A Peter Griffin Christmas", according to the episode Perfect Castaway.

193.171.40.5 (talk) 22:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I was about to make the same point about the episode. The parody starts at about 1:02 of Deep ThroatsI'll see if I can change it on the main page. 150.203.110.172 (talk) 08:36, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

A few comments about my recent edits

• The lyrics by Minna Louise Hohman are copyrighted, so they should not be added back to this article. It is probably acceptable to link to a website that has them.
• The rumor about the original Ukrainian song is inappropriate per Words to avoid and Avoid weasel words.
• There are plenty of Christmas carols in minor key, and plenty with a fast pace.
• There's no need to point out that Peter Wilhousky didn't compose the piece, because the article says who did.
• Mykola Leontovych's Murder has nothing to do with the song.
• This song's copyright has expired. It is in the public domain; therefore, anybody anywhere can use it in their advertising or any other purpose, and thousands of companies have done so. It has also appeared as background music in hundreds of TV shows and movies. Please don't add "So-and-so used it in their TV commercial" or "It was played in the background of Such-and-such" to the pop-culture section. It's almost as popular as Jingle Bells, but we don't need to add every TV, radio, and movie appearance of either song to Wikipedia.
• I've deleted all the "pop-culture" stuff that falls into the category of my last point and divided the rest into two sections - "Notable performances" and "Other versions".

 – jaksmata 15:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Threshold of notability

To prevent this article from becoming a list of every artist who has ever performed "Carol of the Bells", I propose including only recordings that have, independent of the artist, achieved notability. In other words, only songs that have or could have articles per these Wikipedia notability guidelines should be mentioned here. This would apply to any mention of performances or parodies of this song. – jaksmata 16:24, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

According to my estimate (using Wikipedia as a source) there are at least 103 artists who have recorded or parodied "Carol of the Bells". The only one that would pass my inclusion test would be Christmas Eve/Sarajevo 12/24. – jaksmata 14:57, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that the threshold of notability is different to different people. There are songs which have many covers and most are duly listed as a testament of how good the song is. Given the public domain status of the music, then I would not include advertisements, but actual recordings that have made it onto playback media (vinyls, CD's) or have had exceptional reception.

If I were to include many uses, then at least by artists who are featured on Wikipedia, given that an article about each artist must usually pass a threshold of notability on their own. -Mardus (talk) 17:34, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Copyright of lyrics

Even ignoring whether the article is better or worse for the entire lyrics appearing on the page, according to U.S. Copyright law, that copyright exists for 70 years after the author's death. Peter Wilhousky died in 1978, meaning that his lyrics are copyright until 2048. Shouldn't they be removed? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:47, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see... I was mistaken. I'd take them back out, but someone else has already done so. – jaksmata 20:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Not one, but two Garmin ads: Notable?

Both are hilarious, and play every year for some time now.Lowellt (talk) 16:04, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I didn't return the edit, but I believe there are many people worldwide that look up the song and its background because of these current, sometime parodied, versions of the melody and their usage in popular culture. I don't see it as diminishing from the value of this work nor do I see anything wrong with mentioning the different variations, and surely not to exclude the ones that ran on television worldwide. Clearly, this was a source of much of the traffic to this entry. Are we serving the people's desire for knowledge or our own "elite" status by removing it? Keepitreal74 (talk) 05:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Here are the notability guidelines. Just being there doesn't make it notable, there has to be outside coverage. This is not to ensure some sort of elitist standard, but to maintain WP:verifiability. Not everyone is going to watch television enough to see the commercials (I honestly wouldn't remember them if it weren't for people reinserting it over and over into the article). Ian.thomson (talk) 13:03, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Aw...but the Garmin moose song is so funny! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.170.154 (talk) 11:40, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Ukrainian Bell Carol

The "Carol of the Bells" is also known as the "Ukrainian Bell Carol". Garik 11 (talk · contribs), can you give any good justification for removing this from the article and denying any reference to this? Maybe no one refers to it as such where you're from or you simply don't much about the song, but please don't start an edit war.--BoguslavM 19:50, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

If you provide reliable sources that state specifically that "Carol of the Bells" is also known as the "Ukrainian Bell Carol" then your contribution will not be removed. So far, you've only managed to offer some very obscure Google search results with words "Ukrainian Bell Carol" and "Shchedryk", and it is true that "Shchedryk" (which has a wiki article of its own) is indeed known as the Ukrainian Bell Carol, which is sung in Ukrainian. The two references you added later from the sites last.fm and meme-pops.com are not reliable sources per WP:USERG. So please find just one reliable source which states specifically that the English-language adaptation of the Ukrainian song "Shchedryk" called "Carol of the Bells" (not "Shchedryk" itself) is also known as the "Ukrainian Bell Carol". --Garik 11 (talk) 20:36, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

My point with these "unreliable sources" is that people also commonly refer to the song under that name. "Ukrainian Bell Carol" does not refer to "Shchedryk" as it is not a christmas carol, and the lyrics have absolutely nothing do with Bells. In fact, the only time the article every mentions bells, is when it discusses the english version of the song (this article). I hope you understand that I'm to trying to start a new trend or push my personal views. I'm simply trying to make this article more complete and comprehensive, and I wish you would do the same.--BoguslavM 20:53, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I see your point, but without reliable third-party sources your efforts cannot be accepted. On a side note, I have found that ever since that unsourced statement "Carol of the Bells" is also known as the "Ukrainian Bell Carol" has been present in this article with a citation needed tag, it has already spread all over the Internet as a copy-paste from Wikipedia, which is not a good thing either and makes it even more difficult to locate a reliable source supporting this claim. --Garik 11 (talk) 21:16, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Carol of the bells is a later name of the carol. There is plenty of sheet music and recordings (in English) that refer to it as Ukrainian Bell Carol. You must have been living under a rock not to come accross that name or you don't know anything about music. Below is just few sample links to recordings taken from Amazon that refer to this piece as Ukrainian Bell Carol. The name removal is just another one of the the many anti-Ukrainian edits happening lately on Wikepedia. Please add the name back. Those of us who learned it from old sheet music are confused.

http://www.amazon.com/Ukrainian-Bell-Carol/dp/B0013GJBH8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322372544&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Ukrainian-Carol-Educational-Octavo-Three-part/dp/B005OKGUB4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1322372544&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Christmas-Album-Vienna-Boys-Choir/dp/B0000VJFPU/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1322372544&sr=8-8

Mykyta (talk) 05:50, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Another thing - this is not an "English carol" - that would imply it had its cultural origins in England. Not true. It is an "English language version", but why state that? Is "English song" it written under every English language song rgardless of its orgin? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mykyta (talk • contribs) 06:13, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh come on already, seriously? "common English language title " ? It's very awkward at the very least. Why is another name of the carol, "Ukrainian Bell Carol", not addded? As you can see from the above links, there are many recordings and especially music sheets that refer to the carol by this name. The article is incomplete and inaccurate without it. At top of this discussion it was said that if a reliable source can be shown that the carol is also know as Ukrainian Bell Carol, it will be restored. Is Amazon not a reliable source? Mykyta (talk) 00:27, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

First off, please show more respect to other users. Technically speaking, where there is English lyrics, it is a song called "Carol of the Bells". Where there is original Ukrainian lyrics or when we deal with an instrumental interpreation of Shchedryk, it's often alternatively called "Ukrainian Bell Carol" in the English-speaking world--mostly just because the English-speaking people find it hard to remember or pronounce "Shchedryk", IMO. Isn't this exactly what those links from Amazon prove? --Garik 11 (talk) 12:24, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, please explain how I'm being disrespectful, would like to understand that. You stated above that in your opinion, there are 2 instances when this carol is called "Ukrainian Bell carol":

1) When the original lyrics are in Ukrainian - yet the Vienna choir boys recording to which I provided a link above, sing in English. Here is another link to a recording by Columbia Choir Boys. It's titled Ukrainian Bell Carol and even refers to "Carol of the bells" in brackets. There is a sample recording where you can hear the beautiful English rendition. http://www.amazon.com/Ukrainian-Bell-Carol-Bells/dp/B006AT6M4S/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1322626243&sr=8-4

2) When we deal with an instrumental interpreation of Shchedryk - aren't all instrumental versions some sort of interpretations of Schedryk anyway? Nonetheless , here is another link to music notes where the piece is "arranged in Celtic style" and yet it is titled "Ukrainian Bell Carol". Please turn to page 3 on the link where you're allowed to "see inside"

http://www.amazon.ca/Celtic-Christmas-Phillip-Keveren/dp/063401823X/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1322625864&sr=8-8#reader_063401823X

At the risk of sounding disrespectful to you again, IMO, I don't think it counts what your personal opinion is when this song is called Ukrainian Bell Carol or Carol of the bells. What counts is that it is called both names. and for that reason, the name "Ukrainian Bell Carol" needs to be restored in the article. Mykyta (talk) 04:29, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

"Stated simply, editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect." But wording like "Oh come on already, seriously?" or "You must have been living under a rock" is not suitable for intelligent discussion on Wikipedia, neither is it helpful to suspect editors of "anti-Ukrainian" or any other harmful agenda, please assume good faith. As for the name of the song, I am becoming convinced by you, although I'm not sure if tracklisting of some CDs on Amazon can be viewed as a reliable source according to Wikipedia rules. --Garik 11 (talk) 09:12, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

As someone who helps on Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance‎ and started watching this article last night after making some repairs to it, I can say that the phrase is not particularly disrespectful and is more of a sign of frustration than it is disrespect. If you were to make the case there, I doubt it would go anywhere.

As for the use of Amazon for track listings (or even album titles), it should only be used with caution. The material used there is not fact-checked and there could by multiple errors.

As for the controversy being discussed, it seems pretty silly. Take a look at Silent Night. no mention of nationality or language in the lede at all. I'm not sure why this article needs to have the discussion in the lede. It current reads "is the common English language title of a Christmas carol of Ukrainian origin" and that is already overly complicated. I suggest that it be removed. Also, the alternate title should be inserted in place of the awkward nationalistic phrase. The alternate title should not be bold. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

All I was suggesting is that the name "Ukrainian Bell Carol" be restored back in the article. You might consider track listing unreliable, but I provided at least 2 links where the image of the actual item was used, so you can see clearly that this title is still used in the music world. I could also scan some of my music notes with that name, but I don't think it should be necessary. The name may not be as common as Carol of the Bells, but for accuracy and completeness it needs to be mentioned as an alternate title.

I would also like to say something about your comment regarding "nationalistic phrase" although it's just my opinion. I noticed that it's now used often in wikipedia, dismisively, as if there is something inherently wrong with someone keeping track of their country's accomplishments or contributions. You're probabaly right and in the global scheme of things it's silly and unimportant, but sometimes you just need to look at the source. Countries like Great Britain or Austria my not care if Silent Night for example, is noted as an Austrian or English carol - they have many, many contributions throughout the hundreds of years they were free to do so, but for countries, which have just emerged after sometimes hundreds of years of struggle, for countries that are smaller, this medium is the only way to keep track. It's a way of acknowledging that they're now free to do so, they're not silenced and told that they don't exist. It's not just Ukrainians, you can check others - countries in the Balkans or Israel or Jewish people not connected with Israel - anyone who struggled for years for the very existence. Sorry for being long winded, that's my rant for the day, I'll probably delete it later.

Anyway, stating that the carol is of Ukrainian origin is not nationalistic - it's just a fact? Mykyta (talk) 00:12, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

It is both nationalistic and a fact. Not sure why that's a question. Nationalism leads to schisms and arguments, sort of like this one, which is why it's frowned upon.

The lede currently indicates that it is of Ukrainian origin.

As for the alternate title, a better reference would be a book, such as Oxford Book of Carols, New Oxford Book of Carols, or similar, where the carol may be discussed. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:31, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I did not intend this as a nationalistic argument at first. I simply wanted another, alternative name of the carol restored in the article, a name by which I and many others originally learned this carol. When I think of music, I don't think of Oxford books of whatever as the ultimate authority. Music is alive in what people sing, record, in the concerts of school or church choirs. As shown above, there are many recordings and music sheets and therefore there are many people who know and refer to this carol as "Ukrainian Bell Carol" regardless of what an authority such as Oxford Book says. To actually ignore the fact that the same exact song you call "Carol of the bells" has also many other recording as "Ukrainian Bell Carol" is a willful disregard of facts and frankly makes me think that there is something else at play here. I would like someone to review this discussion Mykyta (talk) 02:30, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I just checked and Oxford Book of Carols doesn't have this carol at all - does it mean that it exists?Mykyta (talk) 02:35, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

And here is another thing , go on youtube and see how many English speaking school orchestras and school choirs uploaded their performances of this carol and called it "Ukrainian Bell Carol". This name is alive and well outside of stuffy Oxford books and Wikepedia should acknowledge it. For your enjoyment ( or maybe not so much in some cases)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1lUsYcoOQM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5bDYoa6fv8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWi4zbdpK1w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5bDYoa6fv8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOeFbVecwxw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s83mp6bxe4 Mykyta (talk) 03:08, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

First, replies should be indented.

Second, I don't care if you list every video, iTunes or Amazon listing. They simply indicate that there is an alternate version of the song. It does not indicate the proportions of the song, and not one is a reliable source. My copy of Oxford Book of Carols doesn't have a reference to the song. I don't don't have the New Oxford so I can't comment on it. However there must be a scholarly work that makes reference to the alternate title. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Could you please provide a reasonable explanation as to why you require a "scholarly work" referencing the title? Isn't alternate title merely an indication of what this piece is also known as?

Also I don't think you can state that these are alternate version of the song - you don't know that and you're simply speculating. Anyway the article itself refers to many different versions of the song - it talks about the song being arranged hundreds of times for different genres from classical, jazz, rock and pop. So the article itself bunches all of these different styles and arrangements under "Carol of the Bells. According to you all of them are fine under Carol of the bells, but only the ones called Ukrainian Bell Carol, even if they are sang traditinally by Vienna Boys Choir, are some different version altogether? Is that a fair assesment of what you just said? Do you see inconsistencies? Mykyta (talk) 05:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

When we speak about "Carol of the Bells" please keep in mind that we are specifically talking about the version that uses the copyrighted english text produced by Wilhousky to which royalty payments continue to go. When we speak about the Ukrainian Bell Carol no royalties are paid because the piece is not copyrighted. Many instrumental versions are noted such, in order not to pay royalties to someone who did not create the music. Bandurist (talk) 12:32, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

If you want to make an arguments similar to "What Child is This"/"Greensleeves" you'd have to show two things:

1. That the lyrics existed apart from the melody
2. The melody used with the lyrics have ever been identified with a different English lyrics.

There are a great many Jazz standards that have instrumental versions and versions with lyrics. I don't know of any that use different titles for the two though.

As for the question of why a scholarly work, it doesn't have to be. It could be a write-up in a newspaper indicating that the two are the same or even that they share the same melody. A neutral comment indicating that "Carol of the Bells" and that "Ukrainian Bell Carol" are based on the original Щедрик, or Leontovych's composition, or similar. The key is we can't impose our own opinion on the web sources. It's not that I'm denying that they're the same melody, it's just that I am not a reliable source. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:12, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

We are talking about the usage of an alternate title, therefore why would links showing people actually using the alternate title be not sufficient?

I am also baffled by some of your other statements. What would showing that Carol of the Bells lyrics existed outside of the melody prove? You know that that's imposible, those lyrics were written specifically for this melody and therefore don't exist without it, however that does not preclude the melody having different titles.

It will be nearly impossible to locate a newspaper article that actually says that Carol of the bells and Ukrainian Bell carol are the same melody. I'm more likely to get a sworn statement from a music professor stating that they're are the same melody. Come to think of it, I have a pretty good ear and am likely more qulified than some newspaper editor and can state with confidence that they are the same melody.

Bandurist, thank you for your contribution but this piece is about the carol written by Leontowych. It talks about many instrumental versions, parodies, etc., therefore it is not just about the copyrighted version.

How about this , here is some links to mostly music notes that refer to both "Carol of the Bells" adn Ukrainian Bell Carol. Better than newspaper article as it is from actual music experts.

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdVPE.asp?ppn=MN0087460

http://musiced.about.com/od/freestuff/a/carolofthebells.htm

http://www.onlinesheetmusic.com/title-p375436.aspx http://www.music-scores.com/leontovich/composer.php http://musescore.org/en/node/3691 http://www.8notes.com/scores/9648.asp Mykyta (talk) 06:08, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

http://musiced.about.com/od/freestuff/a/carolofthebells.htm was the only hopeful link, but it does not support the point. The res are not WP:RS. While the link is there, please read about reliable sources and you'll understand why we need a reliable source to back the statement. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

It's curious that of all the links provided, you only deemed the one that doesn't refer to "Ukrainian Bell Carol" as the reliable one, even though it's just for some obscure website while the other links are actual images of music notes, therefore fitting the Wikepedia definition of a relaible source as the "piece of work itself". As well some of the ones shown previously are actual images of recordings or books, etc. also fitting that definition. Mykyta (talk) 07:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

That "obscure" website is about.com and it has paid staff and are known to be a reliable source. The other sheet music sites are not reliable sources. If you had read WP:RS you would have seen that. They are not "the piece of work itself". That would be the original manuscript or copyrighted material. In my opinion, they are replications of the work. However, feel free to take your sources to Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources to see if I'm wrong. I am quite frequently. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:26, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

They are indeed "piece of work itself" as the article is about the actual music that is performed by thousands of artists over and over. The article is not about the original manuscript. There is even references to various renditions and parodies - are these part of the original manuscript as well? I think you are forgetting what this discussions is about. Mykyta (talk) 07:34, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

By the way, your "reliable website" calls Peter Wilhousky, "the composer" of the song. Mykyta (talk) 07:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC) What now? I disagree and I don't think one person's opinion cannot be the final decision? Is there a way to appeaal it? Mykyta (talk) 19:56, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I have already written "feel free to take your sources to Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources to see if I'm wrong. I am quite frequently." I think that explains it fairly well. I too agree that one opinion, yours, should not be the final decision. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:58, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

How is that discussion of reliable sources coming? The reason I as is obvious: an anonymous editor added the information to the lede and another editor has removed it for various reasons. In short, an paragraph about the alternate title must be added to the body so that the section in the lede may remain. I will not "protect" the addition after today. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:42, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I apparently answered my own question by accident. I went to the discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard‎ to discuss something else and found the discussion about these sources. I saw that an editor immediately dismissed the discussion as misplaced and I got it back on-track. An editor weighed-in that the sources are not reliable. So it seems I wasn't completely off-base.

So now the task at hand is to find a reliable source that equates the two titles. A paragraph should be added to the article's body and then it can be added to the lede. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:16, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

"Holiday favorite throughout the English-speaking world"

I don't think this is true. It's not well known in the UK, for example - most British people have only heard it in American films/TV programs and so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.148.157 (talk) 23:36, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Probably correct. We should tag it with a Citation needed tag or dubious statement. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:21, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

It was already tagged, so I just removed it and edited the rest of the paragraph. The lede should reflect the body and this is not discussed in the body at all. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:25, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Ex. of polyrhythm or cross-rhythm? I don't think so.

I read with incredulity that the four-note ostinato is a "blending of a 2 vs. 3 beat pattern." I've never heard that before. Yes, I can see how it can be that. But is it really? Is that what the composer really had in mind? Or is it just the rhythm within the confines of a triple meter, mostly due to syllabification of the original Ukraine text. I would need a citation to justify this remark, especially since it also shows up in the entry for "polyrhythm," which it definitely is NOT an example of in that discussion. --B0cean (talk) 06:30, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

I decided to just delete the sentence. To see my reasons, see Talk #22 in polyrhythm.--B0cean (talk) 07:09, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Rfc: Should Pentatonix be included in the list?

Should Pentatonix be included in the list, given that their cover of the song is notable? -Mardus (talk) 17:47, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Here I added a version by Pentatonix to the list, given that I deem it a notable version of the song, as it has gotten very good reception on YouTube. User:Walter Görlitz removed the listing in short order. -Mardus (talk) 17:47, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Survey

See RfC question.

Threaded discussion

The issue is that some notable versions are probably kept away, because the threshold of notablity might be higher for some editors. -Mardus (talk) 17:46, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I guess the question is, have any reliable sources commented on this version at all? If the only source is a link to a YouTube video then no, it probably doesn't warrant a mention. How do you figure that their cover of the song is notable? - Aoidh (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Do you class reliable as reliable journalistic sources? -Mardus (talk) 18:24, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps a quick reading of WP:RS is in order. I have seen the version and it's not presently notable despite the number of views. The threshold is the same for all editors:

1. An article containing mention of the song's charting
2. WP:NSONG.

I'm not sure why there would be a difference in threshold other than what has been established. The fact that not all editors would know these guidelines is a different matter. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:28, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Would an article mentioning the song's charting be enough? -Mardus (talk) 11:30, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

See 1. above, assuming that it's referenced there. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:00, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

August Burns Red versions!

August Burns Red released their own version of this song on several albums! It was originally released on the X Christmas collaboration in 2008,[1] Lost Messengers: The Outtakes in 2009, Constellations bonus Christmas version in 2009, as well as August Burns Red Presents: Sleddin' Hill in 2012. — Tha†emoover†here (talk) 22:06, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I have both versions, so I'm not questioning its existence, but the notability of the recordings. Are they important? Has it charted. Has a secondary source written about this particular version? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:23, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Know Your Meme

Walter Görlitz recently reverted an edit I made using this site as a source, stating that it was unreliable. Can you please explain? In terms of documenting internet phenomena, it's one of the most reliable sources I know of. You can see from its accolades that I'm not the only one who thinks this. --Lasunncty (talk) 01:54, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

@Lasunncty: I did revert and a reason was given: "source does not meet WP:RS". Did you not see th reason, do you not understand the reason or do you disagree with the reason? The site itself may be notable, but the source itself isn't. The editor who added it, someone named Brad, is he somehow a recognized expert? Is he paid staff of the site? It doesn't appears so? Is there editorial oversight on the site? It doesn't look like there is. I'd be happy to take it to the reliable sources notice board, but it's been discussed there four times in the past:

1. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 61#Is Know Your Meme a reliable source on viral videos? not reliable
2. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 64#What would be a reliable source for a meme? not reliable
3. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 97#Know your Meme for specific content, yes
4. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 158#Know your Meme it depends

so it may not help. I'd be game to see their answer for this situation. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:53, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I was asking why you thought it was unreliable, since there are many possible reasons listed on the WP:RS page. The questions you and the people on the notice board bring up seem to point to the "Questionable and self-published sources" section. To answer that, I would point out that I am not using the site to support a contentious claim; The existence and origin of the video are verifiable facts. Moreover, the site does have editorial oversight and a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. While some pages on the site may contain unverified user-generated content, the particular page I'm citing has been verified by a paid staff member (although I don't know what being paid has to do with reliability). If you think it's worth more discussion on the notice board, go ahead. I won't post it again unless there is some kind of consensus. --Lasunncty (talk) 08:15, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Feel free to raise it at RSN. The question for me isn't whether the thing exists or not, it's whether it's significantly notable enough to be mentioned in the article. I don't think the site supports the claim. In my mind, if it were notable, it would have been written about by several sources. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:19, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I found a news source that talks about the song here, but it doesn't state the year of origin. I think it is significant that "ding fries are done" was googled more than "carol of the bells" in December 2005 (statistics only going back to 2004). Also, the fact that the song has been adapted so many times (including in Family Guy) makes it notable in my eyes. Finally, the song was listed here for over six years (May 2007 to October 2013) without its notability being challenged, and was removed only for lack of references. --Lasunncty (talk) 11:08, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

that source, together with the other, appear to me to be enough to satisfy WP:RS. Thanks for working on it. Do you want to add them or should I? Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:25, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Period inside a "quote" that is not a quote

I've been directed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#LQ for moving a period inside a "quote" for the translation of the Ukrainian title. It's not a quote that someone said, it's just stylistic quotes. From what I can tell, this portion of the MOS is concerned with punctuation of quotations only. I will leave it outside, but want to discuss. 162.206.141.210 (talk) 18:31, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Is the period inside the original title? If so, then it should be inside the quote. If it's not, its not correct to include it. WP:LQ states exactly that: "Include terminal punctuation within the quotation marks only if it was present in the original material, and otherwise place it after the closing quotation mark." It's not style, is against the MoS and if you want to ask on the MoS's talk page, feel free. That is the case with almost every song title on Wikipedia. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The Santa Clause (1994) Soundtrack

• www.imdb.com/title/tt0111070/soundtrack

The Santa Clause (1994) Soundtracks

Carol Of The Bells

Written by Peter Wilhousky

Performed by The United States Air Force Band & Singing Sergeants (uncredited)

(is this an adequate source for the article?)
The song Carol Of The Bells is sung starting a couple minutes after the start of the 1994 movie The Santa Clause during the opening credits, lasting a little over a minute. (Some consider this to be one of the best performances. The singers are obscure/uncertain. The recording may not have ever been published, other than as part of the movie itself.)- 71.174.188.32 (talk) 23:42, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Another possibility is that this performance of "Carol of the Bells" is from the NOV., 1951, Capitol Records Release (on 45 rpm or 78 rpm) of "Christmas In The Air" (multiple 45s or 78s in a box set): performed by the "Voices of Walter Schumann." If this was performed by the Singing Sergeants, then the Sergeants made this recording in 1951!! -- or they are clones, maybe?? If so, they used the exact same arrangement!! (See reference in Billboard, Nov 1951: https://books.google.com/books?id=6kQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=album+recordings+wonderful+counselor+and+carol+of+the+bells&source=bl&ots=5EAUsduGeW&sig=ACfU3U1_pizwGcO4HKcwhyzwh_IHDto-6w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiU957HuqfmAhVlJzQIHeHqB90Q6AEwCnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=album%20recordings%20wonderful%20counselor%20and%20carol%20of%20the%20bells&f=false

DVD credits listed at end:
   Songs
      "CAROL OF THE BELLS"
      Written by Peter Wilhousky

(No performers etc credited.)
What would be the best way to credit either or both of these sources in the article?-71.174.188.32 (talk) 16:57, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Hello! IMDB is not a reliable source for Wikipedia since the content is user-generated and sometimes wrong or based on rumors. [2] I have tried to find a good source for Santa Clause, but haven't found one yet. It would be ideal if a critic mentioned it in a review, perhaps published in a newspaper, magazine, or "reliable" website (not a fan site or personal blog). When possible, I've also tried to include why the song is notable to be added to the list.Belltoes (talk) 01:39, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

French Swingles?

Ward Swingle moved to London in 1973 - IIRC those recordings were done with the reformed group, please check/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.250.71.167 (talk) 00:59, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Popular specifically in America?

Apart from in a couple of American shows I don't think I've heard this in the UK. I doubt many Brits would have a clue what this tune is. Should it be noted that this is relatively obscure outside the US? 86.171.52.134 (talk) 09:30, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

• I'm in London and put it on my watchlist when I heard it the other day. I just heard it again on Classic FM – a UK radio station. Andrew D. (talk) 12:04, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

• I heard again later on their annual carol chart show in which it placed #8. Andrew D. (talk) 12:33, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

South Park

I made an addition to the "In popular culture" section, noting that the song appeared in the South Park episode, "Mr Hankey's Christmas Classics." Another editor removed the addition. I went to his talk page to ask why the South Park appearance was any less appropriate or noteworthy than the other instances already described in the article. The question was removed without comment. I don't want to start an edit war but I don't understand why Mr. Mackey's version doesn't belong up there with the Muppets'. PurpleChez (talk) 15:46, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

@PurpleChez: Please stop playing the victim. I left a comment when you ignored the edit notice on my talk page when adding your complain, that clearly states "If you're here to tell me about an edit of yours that I reverted, please explain why it should be included on the article's talk page." I'm not surprised you didn't see the edit summary in the revert—Feel free to discuss it at the article. WP:COVERSONG is one reason and a lack of a source is the second—when you didn't read that edit notice either. So, yes I did leave you a comment, but clearly not where you wanted it to be left. You also didn't look at the edit summary I left here when reverting: unsourced and we're not trying to create a WP:COATRACK. You'll notice that each of the four other entries in that section include at least one source. Feel free to include sources per WP:RS, and take a few minutes to read WP:COVERSONG and WP:COATRACK. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:57, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

My apologies for the multiple edits to this comment... I usually make better use of "preview" before publishing. I appreciate the links to the various policy pages, but your implication that disagreeing with you means that I'm "playing the victim" and that asking a question equals a "complain(t)" is a bit over the top. I'm also confused by your comments about how you had asked me to address the question on the article's talk page... because this is the article's talk page.

In friendlier news, as a lifelong resident of the Pennsylvania Dutch Country I was interested by some of the tags on your user page... maybe we're neighbors....PurpleChez (talk) 20:36, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Not a problem with multiple edits, but I'm not equating your complaints with playing the victim, I'm equating your "The question was removed without comment" with it as it's not the case.

I left an edit summary on my talk page that you should be discussing here and that's part of the edit notice on my talk page. Anyone who edits there sees the yellow background at the top and the large text block. Of course, most people don't pay attention to it.

I'm in Canada, about 100 miles north of Seattle. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:47, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

From what I can tell, it should stay out. Unless you have some source unaffiliated with South Park indicating its importance, there's no reason to believe it's sufficiently significant to merit inclusion in an encyclopedia.

The Muppets entry you refer to has a third-party source, but even if it did not that would not be a good reason to add the South Park use. That argument boils down to "This section has problems; therefore it is okay to make those problems worse." TJRC (talk) 00:44, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Song

I'm gae 85.254.74.88 (talk) 08:15, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Please add the version of Dan Hicks

Somebody please extend the section "Notable recordings" through the very beautiful non-lexical version of Dan Hicks (singer) in his 2010 album "Crazy for Christmas". It can be found in Youtube (Carol of the Bells, Dan Hicks and the Hot Licks). I do not write English so well and do not dare to edit the English Wikipedia by myself. Grunte (talk) 20:30, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

NOS4A2

About reverting the added reference: The same version used as the opening theme is used in a lot YT videos. My daughter knew the name of the song, but I had to ask ChatGPT where I new that from mainly from and wasn't disappointed, quite opposite to the article which lacked the information. Imagine how often this one is played every day, compared to e.g. an original recording of an orchestra. Plus the link form NOS4A2 to this article doesn't name the performing artist(s), which has/have to be added here.Mideal (talk) 10:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

In Popular Culture, use in Dr. Who,

An editor added to the IPC section "Featured in the Doctor Who episode 'Church on Ruby Road' with Ncuti Gatwa's first solo outing as the Doctor." with no source. Sourcing is required, not only to avoid WP:OR, but to keep fan-sighting out and only add items that have at least gotten some coverage to establish the significance of its usage.

I deleted it as "unsourced, no indication of significance"; the same editor re-added it, again without any source or other basis to show its significance.

I still believe it should be deleted; otherwise articles on any song get filled with fancruft of editors adding any OR-sighting of music in their personal favorite films or show, without any regard to the actual importance as noted in third-party coverage; but I'm not going to edit-war. I've flagged it as needing a cite for now, but it's still probably best to delete it absent a showing of cultural significance. TJRC (talk) 19:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)