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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4Archive 5

numerals 0..9 and their (Unicode) encoding

Western Arabic numerals sans-serif

re: numerals in daily life
"Arabic numerals or Hindu-Arabic numerals or Indo-Arabic numerals are the ten digits: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9."
There should be a note about these glyphs. While Latn.a is a homoglyph of Cyrl.а the digits are coded the same way in Latn, Cyrl, Grec, secular Hebr and other ISO 15924 scripts. ar.Wikipedia is using Western Arabic numerals in years, paragraph counting, etc. while the number plates in some Arabic countries are using the digits from the Arab Unicode block.
A note about numeral encoding is missing in the article, Regards ‫·‏לערי ריינהארט‏·‏T‏·‏m‏:‏Th‏·‏T‏·‏email me‏·‏‬ 19:02, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

more examples from c:License plates are available at test:most-perfect magic square#numerals in daily life . ‫·‏לערי ריינהארט‏·‏T‏·‏m‏:‏Th‏·‏T‏·‏email me‏·‏‬ 19:59, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
modified by ‫·‏לערי ריינהארט‏·‏T‏·‏m‏:‏Th‏·‏T‏·‏email me‏·‏‬ 11:07, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Dungan language

The Dungan language is Sinitic, but is spoken outside China, so it was not appropriate to add China to the list of countries. (A glitch occurred during my edit, and so I am completing my edit summary here.) LynwoodF (talk) 15:16, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Vinča symbols

Vinča symbols that are about 8 000 years old contain 22 Cyrillic letters - it's all about the oldest writing system that is still in use in Serbia. History must be corrected — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.227.244.217 (talk) 14:13, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Vinča symbols contain 22 Cyrillic letters? How can they, if Vinča culture predates Cyrillic long before? The only possible thing you can mean is that Cyrillic alphabet contains 22 Vinča symbols. Also, what you mean "still in use in Serbia"? What is still in use in Serbia, Vinča symbols? What you say needs to be corrected? FkpCascais (talk) 15:51, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
It’s just a bit of popular pseudoscience of the kind unfortunately all-too-common in discussions of Balkan linguistics, but bearing no relation to reality (the early Cyrillic alphabet was identical to uncial Greek script with a few added letters, and had little or nothing to do with Vinča script). This pseudoscientific claim of a relation between Vinča and Cyrillic seems to have also made its way into the article itself — note the »Old European Script« that someone added to the parent systems in the infobox. The claim is sourced to Gimbutas, but of course no page is provided, and it’s very likely Gimbutas never made any claim of the sort (and a quick search through the cited source doesn’t turn up anything relevant). —Vorziblix (talk) 09:31, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

languages [..] still not fully supported

"The Unicode 5.1 standard, released on 4 April 2008, greatly improves computer support for the early Cyrillic and the modern Church Slavonic language.
[..]
Unicode [section..]
Some languages, including Church Slavonic, are still not fully supported.[citation needed]"

I found [1] that at least says "This character is used as the left-most component of a titlo when a titlo balances over multiple letters. It has been encoded in Unicode 8.0" [search for "Unicode 8.0", as substituted ligatures(?)]. I really know nothing about this, maybe or maybe not [Old] Church Slavonic is not fully supported, maybe still not "some" other languages. comp.arch (talk) 21:40, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

is it a thing or the source of things?

I'm not sure how to ask this. The lede says C is a writing system and then says it is the basis of alphabets. Does anyone actually use "Cyrillic" or do they use various linguistic forms of it? Practically speaking, I was reading a Wiki article which had the name in "Cyrillic", with letters that do not occur in modern northern Slav languages, and no explanation given as to whether this word was real or back-formed. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 18:22, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

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Pseudographic characters

The term pseudographic character or pseudographics is used twice, but without any explanation or link. I'm a computational linguist, but I've never seen this term before (although it's apparently used for the old box-drawing characters that were used in MS-DOS and other 8-bit systems). Can it be defined, or linked? Mcswell (talk) 21:24, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

New picture added

There are Cyrillic Text with Many Images on the Left. I do not understand what aims this picture. It is useless to this article. Please, explain its meaning, or remove it. Jingiby (talk) 13:37, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

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Sample of Cyrillic text in information box

This may have been mentioned somewhere else, but there are so many different comments on this page I have no way of telling - short of reading them all, which I have no intention of doing (there comes a point where you can have too much information). I just wanted to know why the sample of Cyrillic text in the information box (with all the flags) is such an untypical version of the script - a Romanian text from 1850. It contains various letters that are no longer used except perhaps in the Orthodox church, it's in a font that is hard for many readers of Cyrillic to decipher, standard Romanian hasn't been written in Cyrillic since 1860 (just ten years after this sample appeared), and Romanian is one of the Romance languages (which are typically written in Latin, not Cyrillic script). At the risk of offending someone - which seems only too easy, judging by some of the comments on this page! - why not provide a sample of modern Russian, since according to the Wikipedia article "Cyrillic alphabets" Russian is the Cyrillic language spoken by the most people? ("As of 2011, around 252 million people in Eurasia use [Cyrillic] as the official alphabet for their national languages. About half of them are in Russia") — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.127.210.95 (talk) 14:07, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Ethiopia

I think that the inclusion of Ethiopia in the infobox list of countries for which Cyrillic is the "national script" is misleading, notwithstanding the link to the archaic script that follows. MapReader (talk) 21:47, 24 September 2017 (UTC) MapReader (talk) 21:47, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I just removed that. I mean come on, Saints Cyril and Methodius weren't even born until four centuries after the final version of Ge'ez syllabary was established. Whoever put it in the inbox clearly had no idea what they were doing.Jaro7788 (talk) 02:28, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Romanian Cyrillic Lord's Prayer example change

According to the talk page of the Romanian Cyrillic Lord's Prayer that is used on this article, there are numerous mistakes in the writing compared to what it should actually be. The user who voiced this concern has recently created an updated version that fixes these issues:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LordsPrayerRomanianCyr.svg

If someone else who fully understands how Romanian Cyrillic was written could verify if this is correct, and help reach a consensus on its accuracy, then I would like to propose switching it with the example that currently sits on the Cyrillic script page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.118.138 (talk) 02:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Faux

What does "Faux" mean in this context? In French, it means something like "fake", "false" or "phony", so I thought the word choice might have some negative onnotations. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

There is a wiki article Faux Cyrillic that explains the term. Apcbg (talk) 16:06, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
So... It's used as an approximation for when Unicode doesn't function correctly? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:35, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

In Bulgarian typography, many lowercase letterforms may more closely resemble the cursive forms on the one hand and Latin glyphs on the other hand, e.g. by having an ascender or descender or by using rounded arcs instead of sharp corners. Sometimes, uppercase letters may have a different shape as well, e.g. more triangular, Д and Л, like Greek delta Δ and lambda Λ.

Differences between Russian and Bulgarian glyphs of upright Cyrillic lowercase letters; Bulgarian glyphs significantly different from their Russian analogues or different from their italic form are highlighted
Default а б в г д е ж з и й к л м н о п р с т у ф х ц ч ш щ ъ ь ю я
Bulgarian а б в г д е ж з и й к л м н о п р с т у ф х ц ч ш щ ъ ь ю я
Faux а δ ϐ ƨ ɡ е ж̍ ȝ u ŭ k ʌ м н о n р с m у ɸ х u̡ ч ɯ ɯ̡ ъ b lo я

Simple chart of (non-italic) upper- and lower-case letters

The sections purporting to show the various letter forms are all over the map. There is a subhead for "lower case letters" but none for upper case letters -- ????? Can't there be a simple table of upper and lower case letters and their corresponding sounds (as romanized)? If the problem is that there are different letter sets for Russian, Ukrainian, and other languages, then could someone construct a table comparing the several main languages (leaving blanks where a letter is not used in a given language)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9000:AC08:A600:94AE:5DA3:4EAA:FDB6 (talk) 00:18, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Impure vs Pure

Can somebody please link to or start a page about 'Impure' vs 'Pure' writing systems? I went down a complete rabbit-hole trying to find out what the '(impure)' next to the description meant, and got lots of completely incorrect answers via search engines (including from self-proclaimed linguists). The short answer is not every letter in the alphabet represents a syllabic sound. In Cyrillic I presume this is referring to the two modifiers, commonly called 'Hard sign' and 'Soft sign'. This page provides some clarification, though it is quite a read: https://neographilia.wordpress.com/writing-systems/ 

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:5802:BBB:0:CD77:307C:D766:6412 (talk) 22:18, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Who called it Cyrillic?

Did the Bulgarians call the script Cyrillic or did somebody else? And when does this name appear in reference to the Slavonic/Slavic alphabets? I am really struggling to understand how this name Cyrillic imposed itself on this writing system. 5.53.249.34 (talk) 13:08, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Changing the summary table

I think it would be a good idea to add lowercase letters to the summary table. Guigas167 (talk) 21:02, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Punctuation

I have just removed this sentence Punctuation for Cyrillic text is similar to that used in European Latin-alphabet languages. from the encoding section, where clearly it didn't belong. It is not obvious where it does belong and in any case it is uncited and possibly wrong (the Apostrophe article describes a unique mark used in Ukrainian and Bylorussian, for example).

New section on punctuation needed? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 12:58, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not entirely convinced that this is a real issue. The item that drew my attention was a recent edit (at Apostrophe#Unicode) which reads:

U+02BC ʼ MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE (from Unicode block Spacing Modifier Letters) is preferred where the apostrophe is to represent a modifier letter (for example, in transliterations to indicate a glottal stop). In the latter case, it is also referred to as a letter apostrophe. The letter apostrophe may be used, for example, in transliterations to represent the Arabic glottal stop (hamza) or the Cyrillic "soft sign", or in some orthographies such as cʼh of Breton, where this combination is an independent trigraph.[1] ICANN considers this the proper character for Ukrainian apostrophe within IDNs.[2] This character is rendered identically to U+2019 in the Unicode code charts, and the standard cautions that one should never assume this code is used in any language.[1]

Spacing Modifier Letters reads:

Spacing Modifier Letters is a Unicode block containing characters for the IPA, UPA, and other phonetic transcriptions. Included are the IPA tone marks, and modifiers for aspiration and palatalization. The word spacing indicates that these characters occupy their own horizontal space within a line of text.

and the ICANN document cited reads

3.6. Ukrainian Apostrophe <U+02BC>
Apostrophe in Ukrainian is a letter (sometimes referred as "quasi-letter") with its use somewhat similar to Russian letter "ъ" (U+044А). Apostrophe is widely used in Ukrainian and cannot be omitted when writing. [...] Due to complexity of entering U+02BC on the keyboard, it is common that people are using punctuation apostrophe (U+0027), which is not allowed in domain labels.

thus, as far as the Unicode Consortium is concerned, it should only be used in linguistics. According to ICANN, it is a valid character in Ukrainian but de facto the typewriter apostrophe is widely used. (Note that ICANN incorrectly describes U+0027 as a "punctuation apostrophe" when in fact it is a "typewriter apostrophe". The punctuation apostrophe is U+2019 ’ RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK. The Ukrainian mark is also known (we say[?]) as a "letter apostrophe".
Is this a mountain or a mole-hill? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)


References

  1. ^ a b The Unicode Consortium, ed. (2016). "Chapter 6. Writing Systems and Punctuation. §6.2. General Punctuation" (PDF). The Unicode Standard. Version 9.0. p. 276.
  2. ^ "1 IDN Variant TLDs – Cyrillic Script Issues" (6 October 2011)

Macedonian Alphabet

I have a valid question.

I am a Macedonian, and my question is: If Macedonians have been Greek for over 3000 years like the Greeks claim, and if Alexander the Great Macedonian was Greek, and influenced Greece more then anyone else in history, and if everything the Greeks say about Macedonia is true, then why is the Macedonian alphabet on the Cyrillic page. Why is the Macedonian Alphabet not on the Greek page next to the Ionia, Athens, Corinth, Argos, Euboea, and Modern Greek Alphabets ? Do the Macedonians qualify as Greeks when we talk about alphabets, or not ?

Why is the Macedonian Alphabet officially using Cyrillic Letters given to us by the Macedonians Kiril & Metodi, and why is the Macedonian Alphabet not using the Greek Letters, and have it's own version of a Greek alphabet, and placed next to the Ionia, Athens, Corinth, Argos, Euboea, and Modern Greek Alphabets in the image that has been provided on the Greek alphabet page http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Griechisches_Alphabet_Varianten.png ?

By looking at this link, are we suggesting that Macedonians speak a Slavic, or Proto-Slavic Language and not a Greek Language while the Greeks openly claim that Macedonians have been Greek since Ancient times ???

http://www.ancientscripts.com/greek.html

If this is a serious web site, then I suggest that the work that has been done by Tome Boshevski & Aristotel Tentov be given serious consideration, because it will fill the void. The knowledge that has been given to us by Tome Boshevski & Aristotel Tentov has been used to successfully decipher ancient manuscripts that have been kept in Russian archives for centuries. Making that information available is better then hiding the truth, or book burning. Here is a external link to help http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/ . Here is an internal link without English translation Macedonian decipherment of the centre text of the Rosetta Stone

Obviously the Greek propaganda campaign still has lots of holes in it, with questions that can't be answered.

If I didn't make my question clear enough, then explain to me what you do not understand.

Best Regards !

Blagoja73 (Blagoja73 (talk) 17:37, 4 May 2012 (UTC))

Dear Blagoja,

I will try to answer your questions:

"If Macedonians have been Greek for over 3000 years like the Greeks claim, and if Alexander the Great Macedonian was Greek, and influenced Greece more then anyone else in history, and if everything the Greeks say about Macedonia is true, then why is the Macedonian alphabet on the Cyrillic page. Why is the Macedonian Alphabet not on the Greek page next to the Ionia, Athens, Corinth, Argos, Euboea, and Modern Greek Alphabets ? Do the Macedonians qualify as Greeks when we talk about alphabets, or not ?"

what Greeks claim is that ANCIENT Macedonians were Greeks. However, Ancient Macedonia was conquered by Romans in 163 BC and the first slavs began settling in the Balkans in the 6th century AD, i.e. a long time after that So, it is completely impossible that ancient Macedonians spoke slavic language. The slavic writing system and orthodox religion were introduced in Macedonia in 9th century AD during the reign of tsar Boris I of Bulgaria (at that time Macedonia was part of Bulgaria). And Cyril and Methodius were byzantine missionaries on service of the Byzantine emperor.

As to the sources you provide, I would advise you not to read any sources from Balkan authors, because most of them are quite biased. Read sources written in English by internationally renowned historians. Moreover, this is the English wikipedia and not everybody speaks Macedonian.

I hope I have answered your questions.

Regards: Scheludko (talk) 17:11, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

The thought that the Cyrillic alphabet was created by Macedonians is false. There is no record of Macedonian identity in the 9th century, when the alphabet was invented. It was created in what would now fall under the modern territory of North Macedonia, but back then in was in the First Bulgarian Empire, and created by St Clement of Ohrid, who named the alphabet "Cyrillic" because he studied under Cyril and Methodius, and wanted to honor them. The brothers, Saints Cyril and Methodius, invented the Glagolitic alphabet, and should get praised for that. KeymasterOne (talk) 16:29, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Blagoja73 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Greetings Scheludko

The word Slav was first used in the 14th Century. I'm sure we all understand that the word Slav did not exist in ancient times, and it would have been impossible to refer to Ancient Macedonians as Slav, because the word Slav did not exist in that time.

It is like you say, that Greeks "CLAIM" Ancient Macedonians were Greek (it is an unproven claim). This is for political reasons. The Greeks also changed the name of the region from "Northern Greece" to "Macedonia" in 1988, because the fear of territorial claims by the Republic of Macedonia. The name of Aegean Macedonia has been changed by Greece 3 times in the past 50 years, finally ending with the name Macedonia.

You say that it is impossible that Ancient Macedonians spoke a Slavic language. Macedonians are Proto-Slavic, and there is evidence to show this. Slavonic peoples didn't magically appear from the wind in the 9th century.

Kiril, and Metodi were Macedonian, and the Macedonians were the first people in Europe to embrace Christianity and make it part of their daily lives. Read it from your Bible if you don't like my links.

My question is, If Macedonians have been Greek for 7000 years, then where is the Macedonian Alphabet ?

Here

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic

Or Here

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Griechisches_Alphabet_Varianten.png

(Blagoja73 (talk) 00:26, 9 May 2012 (UTC))

Hi, Blagoja. Since I am not in the mood for such ludicrous discussion I will be brief. The Macedonian alphabet is an alphabet not older than half a century or so. Why? Because there was no Republic of Macedonia (or whatever you call your country) and there was no such thing as Macedonian alphabet. This is due to the fact that your country is an offspring from Yugoslavia - a more or less successful project against Bulgaria and the Bulgarian nation. You claim a Greek as your greatest hero, you claim Bulgarian tzar as your own, you claim connections with Cleopatra and Ancient Egypt, you claim connections with the Roman Empire etc. etc. I've even heard on your television that God himself first created a Macedonian, who used a stone and a stick to create everything else.

About Greece and Alexander The Great - back then there was no Greece. There were couple of Hellenic "nations" but not a whole country. Greece was created at the end of the Ottoman rule on the Balkan peninsula. Ancient Macedonia (a Hellenic kingdom or whatever you call it) has nothing to do with Republic of Macedonia. Not only culturally but territorially as well. What you are writing in your post is just а running around in circles. You fail to make a connection between Ancient Macedonia and Macedonian people today. Why? Because there is none. Do follow the advice of Scheludko and read foreign resources on this and that matter.Rbaleksandar (talk) 18:12, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

The Macedonian Alphabet was codified in 1940. The Greek Alphabet was codified in 1941. The Macedonian Alphabet was codified before the Greek Alphabet, and in a time before Macedonia was liberated, so there might not have been Republic of Macedonia in 1941 however the Macedonian Alphabet was codified. I believe if you have a look, you will find that there was no department for codifying languages in 1000 BC so it was not possible to codify the Macedonian language in 1000 BC.

I don't claim a Greek as my greatest hero. Greeks claim a Macedonian as their greatest hero. Tsar Samuil was a Macedonian Tsar, and Cleopatra was a Macedonian also.

There was no such thing as Hellenic Nations (as you call it). City States at best (which means a couple of tent cities). Macedonia was a Macedonian Kingdom, not a Hellenic Kingdom. The Hellenes were ruled by a democracy, while the Macedonians had a monarch until Aleksandar the Great conquered the Hellenes and made himself king over them. When the Macedonians defeated the Athenians they built garrisons, abolished the democracy, and sentenced to death all those responsible for the war.

I have waited months for an answer to my question, and you avoided it by calling it ludicrous. Does that mean you can't answer the question, so you insult me ?

My question is, If Macedonians have been Pure Greek for 7000 years, then where is the Macedonian Alphabet ?

Here ?

[[2]]

Or Here

[[3]], [[4]]

--Blagoja73 (talk) 07:44, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

--- My intent is not to insult you but to give you an advice - do NOT read garbage that was written by pseudo-historians and read materials that were created by international teams of historians. I am again answering your question (obviously you did not get my message in the previous post) - the alphabet used in your country is the fruit of the project called Yugolsavia. Before that the territory of your country was occupied mostly by Bulgarians. Yugoslavia was first known as Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. Notice that there is no Macedonians in there. Because there were none. There is a long history of territorial struggle between the Serbs and Bulgarians, which I am not going to discuss here. However part of it is why your nation came into existence - the sole purpose of it was to separate Bulgarians from Bulgarians. And it succeeded. I'm not saying that your country or nation does not exist. Not at all. Even if it is more or less artificially created it is there. The reason you find it difficult to find various connections in the past of your nation is because they are fabricated. It's the same as me claiming to be a Bulgar (also known as proto-Bulgarians) because 1)when the Bulgars arrived on the Balkan peninsula, there were more Slavs there than the Bulgars themselves and 2)after more than 1300 years of existence as a nation it is ridiculous to claim something like "purity" (which by the way sounds quite Nazi to me). A country and nation that are less than 30 years old cannot follow its history as such even in the BC-period. The Macedonian alphabet is a derivative of the Cyrillic script (since it was the Bulgarians who inhabited that territory during the Yugoslavia-period (and many centuries before that). It was altered to make it "independent" from the Bulgarian alphabet because it is really hard to talk about "our language" and "their language" if it's the same. Sources about the Macedonian alphabet (as the alphabet used by the people of Kingdom of Macedonia (bordering Thrace, Paeonia etc.) are scarce and there are still not concrete proves that it was indeed the alphabet used by people from Athens for example. But one thing is for sure - it was NOT Cyrillic because a couple of centuries BC there was no Cyrillic script, which is the foundation to many modern Slavic (and not only) alphabets. It is the same as me claiming that the Bulgars were using it before they settled on the Balkan peninsula, which is obviously ridiculous. Final words: there are no pure Greeks, there are no pure Bulgarians, there are no pure nations anywhere in the world (unless you consider some God forsaken island with a couple of huts and people there living in complete isolation from the outer world a nation).Rbaleksandar (talk) 00:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I should not have contributed here. Everything is Greek. I bet on Wiki I can find a birth certificate that proves Zues was born in Greece, and he was a Greek. And then I woke up.Blagoja73 (talk) 20:51, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Bulgarian Macedonia

If I recall correctly, St Clement was active in the Bulgarian Empire, and come from the region of Macedonia. Some editors insist on labelling him as Macedonian, although I don't believe his ethnicity can be known.

The phrase "Bulgarian Macedonia" was a compromise, and not inaccurate. See the details in the archive: Talk:Cyrillic_alphabet/Archive_1#Bulgarian_or_Macedonian. —Michael Z. 2007-10-26 02:07 Z

St Clement was active in the Macedonian Empire

St Clement was active in the Macedonian Empire.

Well he is born in Ohrid, Macedonia. So that means he is Makedonian. That's becouse Ohrid is in Republic of Macedonia not in southwestern Bulgaria. Use Google map to see for more informations.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.29.246.219 (talk • contribs)

The article Republic of Macedonia tells us that it was established in 1991–93, while St Clement of Ohrid lived in the Bulgarian Empire, over a thousand years earlier. I've adjusted the link to First Bulgarian Empire, so that it is more specific. —Michael Z. 2008-08-28 21:25 z

Cyrill & Methodius in English

What's with Saints Cyril and Methodii? As far as I understand, they are called Sts. Cyril and Methodius in English, sv. Kyrill i Mefodij in Church Slavonic, but this encyclopedia is written in the former. Did I miss anything?

Information about numerology?

I wonder about this. There is an outstanding interest to force the letters to be equal with the numbers in Cyrillic, in Latin, in Chinese, in many text scripts. Speling12345 (talk) 6:02, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Etymology

The etymology doesn't have a single reference or citation. It also doesn't state when the name was first used. Slyapbg (talk) 21:26, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Many of the characters are linked to non-exited pages, the pages do exist, if we can link those letters to the correct pages would be great Sydneybess (talk) 19:18, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

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