Talk:Czechoslovak myth

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:18, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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  • ... that the myth of Czechoslovakia as "a welcoming and tolerant place for Jews" was exploited by Czechoslovak politicians?
    • ALT1:... that the Czechoslovak myth describes the country as "a welcoming and tolerant place for Jews" and an "island of democracy in Eastern Europe"?

Created by Buidhe (talk). Self-nominated at 09:31, 11 May 2020 (UTC).[reply]

  • I have some knowledge in this area (History of Jews in the Czech lands/Czechoslovakia), but I've never heard about the existence of the term "Czechoslovak myth" as a commonly accepted term referring specifically to the political exploitation of a concept of "Jew-tolerant" post-war Czechoslovakia. This story has many facets and can be explained properly but I don't think it deserves a stand alone article under the title "Czechoslovak myth" as a commonly accepted concept. I would be good to see what exactly the sources say. Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 06:21, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • One of the sources (Orzoff) is already quoted in the article and even has "myth" in the title. Lichtenstein writes in the abstract of her paper, "Instead, they sought to cultivate a strategic alliance between the state's Czech elite and the Jewish minority which centred on the claim that Czechoslovakia was a particularly welcoming and tolerant place for Jews, an image that would evolve into a significant component of the myth of Czechoslovakia as an island of democracy in Eastern Europe." Lanicek says, "Thus the ‘myth’ of the exceptional Czechoslovak democracy – closely linked to its treatment of Jews – was born. The Czechoslovaks soon became aware of this reputation among the other East- Central European nations and began to utilise it for political benefit. This ‘myth’ became the main asset of Czechoslovak foreign policy already at Versailles." It is not necessary for every source to use the term in order to have a wiki article on it. If you'd like to propose a different title, feel free to file a WP:RM. buidhe 06:39, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Orzoff's book or study discusses the term 'Czechoslovak myth' from a different and far broader perspective, from what I can see in this review of the book (Historická sociologie 1-2/2012, Charles University in Prague (in Czech)). Similarly, the thesis La Nation Tchèque: konstrukce československého národa ve Francii (Charles University, full version in Czech sercheable on Internet, abstract and summary also in English) deals with the topic (from the point of view of Orzoff and other researchers) in a broader context. The author says (my clumsy translation with the help of G-translator): A key publication for this thesis is the book by the American historian Andrea Orzoff, specializing in modern European history. The book describes the so-called Czechoslovak myth, as constructed by T. G. Masaryk and E. Beneš. This myth forms a basic narrative framework of Czechoslovak propaganda presented to foreign, and later also to domestic, audience. Czechoslovaks are portrayed as fair, naturally democratic founded, progressive, peaceful nation with a sense of humanity, naturally inclined to Western Europe. The idealized nature of the Czechoslovak nation is then built in contrast to the cruelty and power of German nations and Hungarians who oppress and exploit Czechs. Your interpretation may be a part of the story of Czechoslovak myth, but incomplete and highly selective. I think that in a broader examination of the topic we should focus on works describing activities of T. G. Masaryk, E. Beneš and Ernest Denis in Paris during 1915-1918, and the revue La Nation Tchèque. Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 14:02, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The very first sentence of the article states, "Czechoslovak myth is a term used by some scholars to refer to the narrative that Czechoslovakia was a tolerant and liberal democratic country, oriented towards Western Europe, and free of antisemitism compared to other countries in central and eastern Europe." Multiple sources do discuss the treatment of Jews as an important element of the myth, which I don't think that's contradicted by any of the sources you cited. If you'd like to expand the article with more detail and information, please feel free, I don't WP:OWN it. buidhe 23:14, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe so. No one has filed a WP:RM for the title, which is the one used in reliable sources. (t · c) buidhe 20:20, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wrote above that I don't think the article is balanced, but I don't have time to expand it. I respect User:buidhe's work on the article but in my opinion she selected just one aspect of the topic and omitted the broader context. I won't speculate about the motivation but I think that's maybe because User:Buidhe focuses in her WP contributions heavily on antisemitism related topics ... I find this way of editing completely understandable even though I find it slightly biased (my observation is based only on this example). I feel it is important to point out the imbalance here but I don't think it is the most pressing problem in the world. Read above what I wrote. Good luck to you all. Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 11:56, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting article, but is the name the best? Aren't there other myths related to Czechoslovakia? Could we think of a more descriptive one? Which would also affect the hook here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:17, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Piotrus, Thanks for looking into this. I've thought quite a bit about the name, but can't figure out how to change it. lt's what it's called in reliable sources. The only thing I can think of is that possibly the article could be renamed something like Propaganda of the First Czechoslovak Republic (and sources like this could be added), but that would fail common name. (t · c) buidhe 18:56, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there proof of another Czechoslovak myth with reliable sources? If not, this article's title should be sufficient. I also note there is a [weasel words] tag which needs to be addressed. Flibirigit (talk) 03:58, 19 July 2020 (UTC)::*[reply]


General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
  • Cited: Yes - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith
  • Interesting: Yes
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article was created May 8 and nominated May 11, therefore it is new enough. Length is adequate and not a stub. Article meeting basic sourcing requirements for DYK. No plagiarism issues detected. No images are used in the article. QPQ requirements are met. Both hooks are interesting, properly cited and mentioned inline, and would be accepted by AGF. The article is currently written in a neutral tone, but I want to see where the current discussion goes to decide on overall neutrality of the article, Flibirigit (talk) 02:10, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vejvančický and Piotrus:, do either of you have any further questions or concerns? I'd like to move forward with this soon. Thanks. Flibirigit (talk) 08:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Buidhe, Flibirigit, and Vejvančický: The first Google Book hit is this book and as far I can tell it uses the term in a different context, talking about the propaganda/nationalist(?) stories related to the creation of the Czechoslovak state. The second book seems to discuss this term in the same context ([1]) - again, nothing to do with the Jewish history. I am sorry, but I am still not convinced the term as used currently is the correct description of the pheonomena discussed. At best, this needs to be a disambig between two different myths, and likely, a new, better name is needed. And while propaganda of the First Czechoslovak Republic is a notable concept, it is much broader than the limited topic of this article. PS. Re-reading the sources and the article, perhaps we are talking about one myth, but if so, it seems to me that both the articles and the hooks are focusing on one aspect (Jewish history) which does not seem to be the key aspect in this case for the article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:40, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, waiting on @Buidhe: to respond. I'm unsure if we need to change the title. Flibirigit (talk) 15:23, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a misinterpretation. Sources say that these are part of the same phenomenon. One of the sources you mention is already cited in the article, which clearly states the scope of the article in the lead. Furthermore, the majority of sources that I found do focus the Jewish aspect. Again, this is not better than a start class article but in my opinion more of a completeness than NPOV issue. (t · c) buidhe 00:27, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The comments above seem say that either the article could have a different title or could be expanded. Since the article is not a work in progress, I feel it is complete enough for DYK. Also, since no requested move is ongoing, I see no reason to keep this in limbo. Article meets all DYK criteria as per my review above. Approving both hooks by AGF. Flibirigit (talk) 07:59, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I don't have problem with POV/NPOV, what bothers me is that the article as it stands now may give to a reader the impression that the topic is all about relationship between Czechs and Jews which is completely wrong. It's just incomplete and therefore potentially misleading. Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 08:27, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's my concern as well. The article and the hook seems to unduly focus on one aspect. It is an interesting aspect, but generally DYKed content tends to be more balanced. The article and the hook seem to be about the Jewish part of the Czechoslovak myth... This could be solved rather simply by expanding the article further. Any chance for that? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:46, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone is welcome to make edits to the article. The nominator has already stated on May 20 that she does not WP:OWN it. Flibirigit (talk) 04:59, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Extent[edit]

@Darwinek: - The reason I wrote that the myth extended from 1918 to 1948 is because of the following text: “The myth of Czechoslovak exceptionalism was promoted ... throughout the First Czechoslovak Republic and the Czechoslovak government-in-exile, and in the Third Czechoslovak Republic until the 1948 Communist coup.”

Given this, as well as the desire to avoid internal contradictions, should we not restore the 1948 date? - Biruitorul Talk 18:43, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Biruitorul: - The myth of Czechoslovak exceptionalism is to a considerable extent promoted to this day. What I meant is that the idea of Czechoslovakia as a "democratic paradise" and "heaven for minorities" of sort, centers around the idealized picture of the First Czechoslovak Republic, which lasted from 1918 to 1938.--Darwinek (talk) 20:14, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Error[edit]

I saw the entry at DYK this morning and did not care for it. Here's what I posted at WP:ERRORS

"... that the myth of Czechoslovakia as "a welcoming and tolerant place for Jews" was exploited by Czechoslovak politicians?"

This seems to be an outrageous and tendentious POV fork. It might give the reader the impression that the extermination of Jews in that country was the work of "Czechoslovak politicians" rather than being a part of the Holocaust. You can tell that it's a fork because more established pages such as Czechoslovakia or History of the Jews in Czechoslovakia say nothing about this supposed myth. The phrase "Czechoslovak myth" seems to be revisionist hype for the work of one non-notable historian. It is not a well-established and famous phrase for this part of the world such as Prague Spring, Velvet Revolution or the betrayal of Munich. I intend to nominate this article for deletion but don't like doing so while it's on the main page. Note that such concerns were raised during the DYK nomination but were swept aside rather than being addressed, e.g. "the article as it stands now may give to a reader the impression that the topic is all about relationship between Czechs and Jews which is completely wrong"
— User:Andrew Davidson 07:53, 31 July 2020

Nobody seemed to notice – presumably because we're in the dog days – and now it has scrolled off the main page, as it only got 12 hours. Now, before I take this to AfD, let's see if there is a sensible alternative. Perhaps we might merge to another page such as:

Note that none of these pages so much as mention this supposed myth which is nearly an orphan page. How come that this supposedly central myth has been missed out?

Andrew🐉(talk) 14:01, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this should have been promoted, especially not with "offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith" while the article's neutrality was rightfully in question.
Agree that this article is a POV fork and the term is not notable. I would support a merge into History of the Jews in Czechoslovakia (which doesn't even have a lede, let alone a section about the First Republic), and History of Czechoslovakia (1918–1938). – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 15:20, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ooh, but there is a First Czechoslovak Republic section in History of the Jews in the Czech Republic, what a mess! – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 15:26, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since the article opens with The Czechoslovak myth is a term used by some scholars, such as Andrea Orzoff, I suppose the first thing to do is establish the extent of this usage; i.e., how many others? ——Serial 15:24, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    The article already cites several academic sources which discuss this term; all but one are independent of Orzoff. Yes, most Czechoslovak history topics on Wikipedia are terribly underdeveloped, but that does not make this a non-notable topic or POV fork. And no, Orzoff is not non-notable, as there are several reviews of her book (which also discuss this term, and could be cited in the article).[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] (t · c) buidhe 17:32, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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