Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini/Archive 1

Archive 1

'Furthermore, various videos of the violent method of arresting women by Mortality police officers in the cyber space, indicate the violent treatment of the police against women'

I have no clue what this sentence are trying to say Trade (talk) 20:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Readjusting the sections

Hello. I think the "biography" section should be removed, and its content distributed on other appropriate sections (namely the following one, and the reaction). I remind everyone that this is an article about an event (the death of a person), not about the person themselves, who in this case lack notability (the event however is notable). For reference, please read WP:N and related articles. If there's no opposition, I will proceed to make the adjustments. Ideophagous (talk) 18:43, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Done.-- Ideophagous (talk) 19:01, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 22 September 2022

In the last line of the lead, it says "These may be the most severe Internet restrictions in Iran since 2019 when the Internet was shut down completely." Change it to "These may be the most severe Internet restrictions in Iran since 2019, when the Internet was shut down completely." with a comma after "2019." ji11720 (talk) 21:08, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 Fixed as a non-controversial copy-edit per WP:FPP. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 21:20, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Protected Edit Request: Iran's president cancels interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour after headscarf demand

Please add to the article:

• On September 22, CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour was scheduled to interview Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi in New York City, following his appearance at the United Nations general assembly. Amanpour planned to speak with President Raisi about several international issues, including the death of Mahsa Amini and the related protests. The long-anticipated interview would have been the first time Raisi spoke with US media on American soil. Forty minutes after the interview was set to begin and before Raisi arrived, an aide to the Iranian leader made a last-minute request and stated that the meeting would not happen unless the journalist wore a headscarf. Amanpour responded that she could not agree to the "unprecedented and unexpected condition" and later reflected on the situation, saying that "Here in New York, or anywhere else outside of Iran, I have never been asked by any Iranian president ― and I have interviewed every single one of them since 1995 ― either inside or outside of Iran, never been asked to wear a head scarf".

(In case it's not clear: can just edit & copy/paste the above text directly into the article, wherever it fits best, as this is my own writing and is based on info from the cited sources.) Thank you! Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 05:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

References

• Seconding this nomination. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 03:16, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Presidentman: Courtesy ping that FPP has expired and you can now make this edit (without expressing an opinion myself on the merits of the edit). -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 08:51, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I think this more related to Mahsa Amini protests than to this article. Though I would keep the paragraph shorter, since it includes irrelevant details (e.g. the quote "Here in New York..."), and add that she was asked to wear the hijab because of the "situation in Iran" as CNN mentions.--Ideophagous (talk) 09:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I added it to Mahsa Amini protests#Reactions with some adjustments.--Ideophagous (talk) 09:26, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Great, thanks!! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 17:35, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of source

@Roj im: You changed "feminist slogans" to "Kurdish feminist slogans" apparently based on the second source https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111855277&oldid=1111855068. However, this is what the second source says "“Jin, Jiyan, Azadi” (women, life, freedom), the motto of the Kurdish women fighters.". It does not call "death to the dictator" a Kurdish slogan. Please re-do your edit. HistoryofIran (talk) 09:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

The original wording was incorrect that lead to mixing it with "death to the dictator". So I'll just rephrase that, what do you think :) — Roj im (talk) 09:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done — Roj im (talk) 09:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2022

typo : The sanctions would involve blocking any proprties ****

change "proprties" to "properties" or "assets". QuiverT123 (talk) 01:01, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:25, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Celebrities

More than half of these "celebrities" are totally unknown. Hundreds of famous people have spoken against this violence. Why are we giving these few coverage? 31.217.28.48 (talk) 14:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Put some examples with sources and we'll add them. Probably most editors are simply putting names they've come across. Ideophagous (talk) 14:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I'd just remove the obvious influencers first. Not like the article needs a celebrity section. 31.217.28.48 (talk) 15:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2022

Mahsa Amini was born in 2000 not 1999/2000. Writinginfont (talk) 16:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 17:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Mahsa Amini’s father says authorities lied about her death

From CNN:

"Amjad Amini, whose daughter Mahsa died after being arrested in Tehran by morality police, said doctors had refused to let him see his daughter after her death ... 'They’re lying. They’re telling lies. Everything is a lie ... no matter how much I begged, they wouldn’t let me see my daughter,' Amjad Amini told BBC Persia on Wednesday. When he viewed his daughter's body leading up to her funeral it was entirely wrapped except for her feet and face – though he noticed bruising on her feet. 'I have no idea what they did to her,' he said."

Please include a mention of this in the article, perhaps under the "Reactions" section. Currently it says, rather vaguely: "Mahsa Amini's father, Amjad Amini, was interviewed by various international media about his daughter's tragic death and answered the claims of Iranian government officials."

I think this vague sentence should be updated with details from the CNN article, linked above. Thanks! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 11:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Article is locked, so if someone with edit privileges could make this change it would be much appreciated! Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 11:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Done.-- Ideophagous (talk) 12:27, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you!! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:34, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

So called

Why does it say "so called" and use scare quotes around "guidance patrol", "Moral Security" and "briefing class" in the circumstances section? Aircorn (talk) 22:36, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 Removed those bits. It was that way due to someone copy-pasting from https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-iran-france-arrests-d2885fc65f51a6ee8758791e192c6992. Off to go check the rest of the article for copyvio now... -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Despite my own hesitancy, I think that was the right call. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:21, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish: It was the copyvio-ness that tipped me to do something. On that note, I've reworded around more cv from that source as well as cv from [1] and [2]. That led to more prose changes than I'd like to make to an FPP'd article, but I didn't really see another option when we're linking to copyright violations from the Main Page. If anyone has any concerns about the prose changes I made, please let me know. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh also, § Investigation is verbatim from [3], but I let it slide for now because it's an arrangement of names, titles, a quote, and the words "asked" and "to". Hopefully someone can add some words to that section when FPP expires and break up the verbatim copy, though. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:45, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Also, general reminder to everyone that it is never okay to copy-paste sentences from sources, something that breaking-news articles are particularly susceptible to as people rush to add information. I've warned both editors responsible for it here, who are thankfully new editors who I hope will not make this mistake again; but in the past I've had to warn quite experienced users for doing it on articles like this. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I was looking at that too, and it was pretty close, but not quite close enough for me to try and paraphrase editing from my phone. Thanks for that edit. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:46, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

"Circumstances of death" minor error

This line: "He was told she would be taken to the detention center to undergo a 'briefing class' and released in an hour." That "He" should be "She", no? There's no specific male mentioned in that section.67.83.99.134 (talk) 02:22, 23 September 2022 (UTC)corpho

Sorry, that's my mistake from when I was cleaning up the copyright violations, removed a clause I shouldn't have.  Fixed -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 02:46, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Origin of the woman

She is a Kurdish girl!! 2001:16B8:F9B:100:41BD:D2E2:9946:E1DA (talk) 20:08, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

It is already mentioned that Saqqez is in Kurdistan Province. Nationality-wise though, she was Iranian. She could have equally been from other provinces that have their own ethnic groups and languages, like Lorestan, Mazandaran, Gilan, or Azerbaijan, but would still be considered Iranian. Keivan.f^Talk 04:13, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree, but I have reinserted the Kurdish pronunciation (leaving both), as it is probably how people refer to her. Alexcalamaro (talk) 04:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

How come you think that is the case? Please discuss it here first. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

She was Kurdish & Iranian, so it makes sense to include her name in both languages. We often do so for people who have an ethnic identity that differs from that of the general national identity. Kurds don't have their own country, but they're an ethnic group who have their own language. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:07, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

And there are likewise articles where we don't do that. It's ultimately a matter if it's relevant or not, which clearly isn't the case here, as this article is about the death of Mahsa Amini, which essentially happened due to her gender. I wonder if the same would have been said if she was from Gilan or Lorestan. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Indeed it would be the same situation. We would include the name in the local language that represents her cultural background (assuming it's different from Persian), in addition to the Persian name.-- Ideophagous (talk) 10:21, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

It's relevant to her identity that her name was different in the language of her ethnic group. That makes it relevant enough for the article. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:57, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed! Important and relevant to include. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 12:09, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but how do you exactly determine her identity? She was born and raised in Iran. To avoid discussing the same subject in two different sections, please join the one above and kindly reply to the arguments I made there. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:12, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Several reliable sources refer to her as a "Kurdish woman" or that she came from a Kurdish town in Iran (e.g. The Guadian, The Washington Post, Reuters). It's not Wikipedia's job to decide the truth, we simply document topics based on sources. As such, adding her name in Kurdish to the lead should be a no-brainer.-- Ideophagous (talk) 15:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm missing how it makes it relevant to add her name in Kurdish (you're also yet to reply to my points above). Though per the afromentioned sources I have no problem in briefly mentioning her Kurdish background in the body of the article. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:54, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Maybe we just need an WP:RFC & vote on this then. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm fine with an RfC.-- Ideophagous (talk) 00:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Please, see discussion and votes following in section above : "More on the reverted revisions of @HistoryofIran". Alexcalamaro (talk) 07:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

US Treasury sanctions against Morality Policy and Iranian officials

Please add info about US Treasury sanctions against Iranian Morality Police and seven leaders of Iranian security organizations, as a response to Mahsa Amini's death and subsequent protests, especially the oppression and killing of protestors. Sources: US Treasury, Aljazeera Ideophagous (talk) 23:54, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

The Washington Post also mentions this: The United States on Thursday imposed sanctions on senior officials from Iran's intelligence and law enforcement branches, condemning what Secretary of State Antony Blinken called Amini's 'tragic and brutal death.'
Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 02:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ideophagous: Courtesy ping that FPP has expired and you can now make this edit (without expressing an opinion myself on the merits of the edit). -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 08:52, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

It's already done.-- Ideophagous (talk) 08:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I managed to forget to check that. 🤣 -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 09:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Title

Should we change the name of article to "mahsa amini"? 185.111.13.174 (talk) 06:21, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

No, because she isn't notable. It's her death & the reaction to it which are. I moved the article to Killing of, when the article portrayed her death as a certain killing. The article now portrays it as a suspicious death. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:19, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

This is a person article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd 49.224.240.13 (talk) 05:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

And then there is also this article: Murder of George Floyd

As well as several "reaction" articles about the protests, trial, etc. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Press TV blacklisted

The government's official response is here "Iran president orders thorough probe into case of women who collapsed at police station" (presstv.ir) https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2022/09/18/689433/Iran-President-Raeisi-orders-probe-Amini-case

I think the Iranian government's English news website is banned on Wikipedia. Thus, their answer can't be added to the article. 24.125.105.21 (talk) 18:11, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Many other journals will cover this - and we don't have to worry about RS certification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.31.194 (talk) 19:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Replacing "Death" with "Murder/Killing"

Describing her horrible killing as "Death" (which does not suggest the dying being intentional - the story that the Iranian authorities have decided to go by) seems totally unfair. Any chance we could change the title? Nicxjo (talk) 14:50, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

It can be changed if an official source confirms that it was murder/killing. Wikipedia should only include well-sourced information.-- Ideophagous (talk) 14:57, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Her killing has been called as such by most sources (Iran Human Rights Group, Jerusalem Post, Radio Zamane, etc.) I hope citing these several credible sources is enough as such event is unlikely to be ever admitted by the government.Nicxjo(talk • contribs) 16:00, 22 September 2022

I moved the article to Killing, but it was moved to Death. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:18, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Nicxjo, give history time to make its judgement. Wiki is not a newspaper, and we can wait for the majority of scholarly notices to refer to her murder as 'murder.' 50.111.31.194 (talk) 19:19, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Name

I dont know much about family of Arabic languages, but I think Zhina and Jina are both derogatory name put on her, either by local media or authorities. The words are similar to Zina. Hysocc (talk) 07:39, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Farsi & the Kurdish languages aren't Arabic. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:53, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

(e/c) According to this, it's a name of Kurdish origin meaning "life". It has nothing to do with the Arabic meaning. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 09:57, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

The correct name of this language is Persian, why do you use endonym of Persian? The endonym itself comes from Parsi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.242.219.56 (talk) 19:21, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

No, we're not doing this. This is not a place to argue about what to call ISO 639:fa. There are many, many other places on the Internet where you can do that to your heart's content. If you continue to use this talkpage as a forum, I will block you from editing it. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 19:35, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

In persian, mahsa ( mah = moon, sa= like) means like moon!

Other persian names, Parisa(like fairy), dorsa(like jewellery), mehrsa(like sun), ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.242.219.56 (talk) 18:59, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Remove Navid Zardi from the reactions section

In the reactions sections under "celebrities", the article says that "singer Navid Zardi decided to dedicate the incomes of his next concert to Mahsa's family". While this may be true, this singer doesn't have an article and this claim is cited only to an Instagram post. This doesn't really seem like a reliable source and is unduly promotional, with the line added to get attention for this singer. I propose removing this entry given the poor sourcing and lack of importance. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

This seems like the cruft I would normally remove uncontroversially, but as it's full protected and I'm a bit hesitant, I'd like to hear from someone else before I make the edit. Tamzin, any input? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish: WP:FPP advises Fully protected pages [that are protected due to content dispute] may not be edited except to make changes that are uncontroversial or for which there is clear consensus. I'd say removing a non-notable person from a reactions section is somewhere between "uncontroversial" and "minimally controversial"; personally I was going to wait for one or two people to concur with Chess, but I think it would be reasonable for you to action this. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 22:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

A similar thing could be said of the section above, even if it's not formally an ER. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:00, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

That I'm more hesitant about, as the first cited source says by the regime’s so-called “Guidance Patrol” and transferred to the “Moral Security” agency. As the source is using the quotes I'm a bit less likely to edit through protection for it, but I'm also gunshy at the moment. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:16, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@Chess and @ScottishFinnishRadish: Should Ahmed Assid be removed, too, as there's only a Facebook citation? — Roj im (talk) 11:19, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Roj im: Might as well. I'll do it myself since the article is only semi-protected now. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 16:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ideophagous: I mainly removed the entry about Ahmed Assid since it's not WP:DUEWEIGHT to include stuff only cited to a Facebook post by the subject. We should only be including celebrity reactions that are covered in reliable sources, otherwise we might as well toss in every single Tweet by a notable person as an example of a reaction. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:58, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Fine. I just prefer to have more diversity in the celebrity reactions.-- Ideophagous (talk) 05:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Move the name of article from "Death of Mahsa Amini" to "Mahsa Amini"

I created this article and at first it's name was Mahsa Amini but heavy editing by different users changed the name of it to Death of Mahsa Amini. I believe Mahsa Amini is the right name for this article because she is famous not only for her tragic death by iranian morality police but for her own character as she was a young girls like millions of other iranian girls who choose to be happy and free from Iranian government mandatory laws for women clothes. So she was arrested because of her clothes and she got killed in this way and became the symbole of freedom for iranian people specially for women. her name by the hashtag of #مهساـامینی was retweeted more than 15 million times and she is well known not onle near iranian people but also near all over the world. please move the name of article to Mahsa Amini or Mahsa Amini (Jina). Caravaneternity (talk) 08:38, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

No, according to WP:N, she's not notable. She's only on Wikipedia because of the circumstances surrounding her death, and as such, only her death is notable.-- Ideophagous (talk) 08:56, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I believe she is notable .. Please pay attention to the hashtag #مهسا_امینی or #MahsaAmini .. it is her name not this one #Death_of_MahasaAmini.. Caravaneternity (talk) 07:21, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

The media coverage is all due to her being arrested & killed. None of it is due to anything she did prior to that. It's her death & the reaction to it that are notable rather than her. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:13, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Background

Hello @Ideophagous, This part is not neutral but it is somehow trying to show Iran's government as justified and lawful, and it is not impartial and does not reflect the historical reality in Iran. The mentioned law was forced upon the people and the people were opposed to it from the beginning, but the Iranian government did not pay attention to their protest and repressed them every time like the killing of Mehsa Amini. This part should either be deleted or corrected. so that people's objections are mentioned in it and the violent behavior of Iranian government agents is mentioned. Caravaneternity (talk) 07:05, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

First of all, Wikipedia should only include verifiable information, i.e. from statements mentioned in reliable sources. No original research or conclusions drawn by the editors themselves, or personal opinions (unless the opinion is in a source, in which case it should be written in reference to the person or institution that issued it, e.g. "acccording to xyz, bla bla bla"). The paragraph as it is now simply cites factual information, without agreeing or disagreeing with the dress code rules. In fact, it also mentions instances of violence against women regarding the dress code, as well as the official policy of the Islamic Regime based on the viewpoint of the Supreme Leader. We have to trust that, if the content is factual and clear, the reader is intelligent enough to understand it and make their own conclusions, and not try to put or force ideas into their minds.

Second, my purpose from the background section was to answer the following questions:

• What are the "Islamic dress code" rules?
• When were they first introduced in Iran and by whom?
• What State policy or ideology motivates the dress code rules?
• What is the cost of not following the "Islamic dress code" rules?
• What is the role of the Morality Police in all of this? What do they do exactly?
• Have there been instances of violence against those who break these rules? Or is this the first time that it happens?
• Are there Iranians against these rules?

There may be one extra question that would be good to answer, which is:

• How many Iranians are for or against these rules?

It would be best to find statistics or survey results from reliable sources. Are there any other questions you think are important to answer as background information for this topic? -- Ideophagous (talk) 07:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Please You should also mention people's objections and protests and incidents which happened for many peoples related to this hijab rule. For example, at the beginning of the Iranian revolution, many women came to the streets and protested against this law. A large number of people were against this law from the beginning. This is why today people like Mehsa Amini are killed and people come to the streets to protest and we see that the police repress them severely.

all of this facts you can see in the istory of Iran and in Wikipedia in articles like this: Iranian protests against compulsory hijab Caravaneternity (talk) 08:03, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Caravaneternity: It's just a background section, so we can't mention every detail, but sure, I added the article you suggested to the "see also" tag. I'll try to find the example you mention (at the beginning of the revolution...), from a reliable source (feel free to suggest one) and add it as well. If you have more sourced information relevant to that section, feel free to suggest. But please always check the sources before you make modifications. For example you tried to change this part:

In the last decade, clothing in Iranian society underwent significant changes, and young women especially tend to be more relaxed about applying hijab rules

into:

In the last decade, clothing in Iranian society force(ful)ly by government underwent significant changes, although some young women especially tend to be more relaxed about applying hijab rules

But that's the exact opposite of what the source says actually. Here's the passage this was taken from:

Clothing in Iranian society has undergone enormous change, especially in the past 10 years, with a wide variety of colourful local and foreign clothing available to men and women.

Young people, in particular, are increasingly taking a more relaxed approach to hijab-wearing. This has led to intermittent “morality police” campaigns which single out women wearing what authorities call “bad hijab”.

That's why we should always rely on sources, and not assumptions or self-drawn conclusions.--Ideophagous (talk) 08:17, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

This sentence "young women especially tend to be more relaxed about applying hijab rules" .. Did you mean all young women or some of them????? surely this one is true "some of young women ..." please correct it. Caravaneternity (talk) 08:18, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

It's written with the same meaning as in the source "Young people, in particular, are increasingly taking a more relaxed approach to hijab-wearing", i.e. this is a tendency, but we do not know if it's "some", "most", etc. That's not mentioned in the source.-- Ideophagous (talk) 08:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

all sources you want can be achieved here in this article International Women's Day Protests in Tehran, 1979.

Thank you Caravaneternity (talk) 08:21, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Alright, thanks, I will check this and add relevant information with references. The article itself may be good to add to the "see also" tag, instead of "sex segregation in Iran" which is too general.-- Ideophagous (talk) 08:26, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much .. I just want this article be complete .. Caravaneternity (talk) 08:41, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I've added details from the articles you suggested. Let me know what you think. Also, just in case this was not understood well, "more relaxed approach" = "less strict, less observing of the rules", i.e. young women of Iran today tend to be less strict about wearing hijab.-- Ideophagous (talk) 09:13, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks again.. Just what I can think of now is that I think this part "Background" is getting too long. If you agree, please summarize it yourself. Caravaneternity (talk) 14:44, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I think it's fine as it is, it should just not be expanded further. Maybe the quote by Ayatollah Khomeini can be removed. But the rest is just what's needed to clarify the context of the incident.-- Ideophagous (talk) 15:08, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

• There ought to be a mention of Iran and Afghanistan as the only 2 countries in the world out of about 200 with compulsory hijab. Either these 2 outliers are extremely enlightened geniuses than the whole planet or the they are <expletives>.2601:C4:C300:A210:556A:6489:9A1D:B051 (talk) 23:40, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

  There are a couple of articles that address this: Hijab by country and Burqa by country

  Although, those articles seem to focus on hijab & burqa bans (but do mention countries where it is mandatory). The lede for both of those articles could be improved. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 00:26, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Age

Hi there, User:Ideophagous, I hope all is well. I was just concerned about the age of the subject, Mahsa Amini. The citations say that she was either born on 22 July 2000 or 20 September 1999. As of this discussion, it is 25 September 2022. So by that calculation, she would be 23 based on the second citation. Should the age be added back in? Thanks, Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 20:42, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

She died on September 16 (possibly earlier if eyewitness testimony is correct), so regardless of her birthdate, she never reached 23.-- Ideophagous (talk) 21:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh my, I forgot about her death. I should have looked at the full details before pinging you on the talk page. I apologize for jumping the gun. Cheers, Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 22:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

That's alright. Have a good day/night!-- Ideophagous (talk) 22:24, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Will do! Same to you! Take care, Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 22:42, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Kurd

A person from Kurdistan may be of another ethnicity, User:Ideophagous . Xx236 (talk) 10:54, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Sure, but you added the statement in the wrong section. Also, we've had this conversation about ethnicity already. Please read the section above titled "More on the reverted revisions of @HistoryofIran", and add your comment there. There's no point in re-iterating the same things over and over. If you're not satisfied with the result, you can call for an RfC.-- Ideophagous (talk) 10:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

hijab

either it's a foreign word and is italicized, or it is an English word and takes proper grammar, i.e, "a hijab". Primergrey (talk) 19:05, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I would come down on the side of italicized foreign-language word. Elizium23 (talk) 19:08, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I would not, not in 2022. It has become assimilated and will be found in any good English dictionary [4]. For a list of online searchable ones, see here: Wikipedia:WikiProject English Language#Online tools.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

An artwork

hello, i created this artwork and uploaded in commons. may you can find a way to use it

File:Mahsa amini.jpg

. because she died soon, an untimely death, i finished this art incomplet.Roxjor (talk) 18:20, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose inclusion of this artwork as it is against WP:NPOV as a political statement.

Elizium23 (talk) 19:09, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

how can in fix it?Roxjor (talk) 19:44, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

You can't. The entire purpose of the image is a social-political statement equating Amini with freedom or with activism for freedom.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:40, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

EDIT REQUEST: Please add wikilinks to Mahsa Amini protests#Internet blackouts

Wikilinks could be added, regarding the Internet blackouts, in the last paragraph of the lede, and also in the On social media section of this article, where it mentions Internet disruptions.

Content at Mahsa Amini protests#Internet blackouts is more in-depth than what is presented here, so a link to that section would be helpful, I think, for anyone wanting to learn more. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 07:55, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Kurdish Latinized/Kurmancî spelling

Add latinized name: Jîne Mehse Emînî. Krqftan (talk) 04:29, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

No, Latin isn't used in Iran and Kurmancî is barely spoken in the western part of the country, let alone in Kurdistan province. --HistoryofIran (talk) 06:40, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Zhina/Jina confusion

Both Zhina and Jina are representations of her name in Kurdish with no difference in the pronunciation. Zhina is based on the Romanization of Persian, and Jina is based on Jîna, the same name written in the Kurdish Latin alphabet. The current state of the first paragraph of the article might create a confusion as readers might think their pronunciation are different. I suggest removing the "Jina Amini", and adding its full version next to the lang-ku template.

Like this:

On 16 September 2022, a 22-year-old Iranian woman named '''Mahsa Amini''' ({{lang-fa|مهسا امینی}}, {{lang-ku|مەھسا ئەمینی ,Mehsa Emînî}}), also known as '''Jina Amini''' or '''Zhina Amini''' ({{lang-fa|ژینا امینی}}, {{lang-ku|ژینا ئەمینی ,Jîna Emînî}}),<ref name="ncr">{{Cite web |date=15 September 2022 |title=Zhina Amini goes into coma 2 hours after arrest |url=https://women.ncr-iran.org/2022/09/15/zhina-amini-goes-into-coma/ |access-date=18 September 2022 |language=en-US}}</ref> died in [[Tehran]], Iran, under suspicious circumstances, potentially due to [[police brutality]].<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |date=16 September 2022 |title=Iranian woman 'beaten' by police for 'improper hijab' dies after coma: State media |url=https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2022/09/16/Iranian-woman-beaten-by-police-for-not-wearing-hijab-dies-after-coma |access-date=16 September 2022 |publisher=[[Al Arabiya]]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |title=IranWire Exclusive: Morality Patrol Beats a Woman into a Coma |url=https://iranwire.com/en/women/107558-iranwire-exclusive-morality-patrol-beats-a-woman-into-coma/ |website=iranwire.com |date=15 September 2022 |access-date=18 September 2022}}</ref>

Also: Hey, @Mitrayasna: Please provide more info on why you did this.

— Roj im (talk) 09:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I have to write her name with international spelling Mitrayasna (talk) 09:21, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Disagree on adding the Kurdish transliteration to the Mahsa Amini name per the arguments up above. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

What about only removing the "Jina Amini" as it is a wrong representation and might lead to confusion? — Roj im (talk) 09:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Permitted and forbidden names in Iran

This article provides some background on Iran's control of how its citizens name their children: Iran often denies names that are not on their approved Islamic list, names that represent ethnic nationalism or regional pride, etc. So Amini's "alternate" names are germane to the story of her life in a very real way: as a Kurd, the Iranian government did not appreciate her ethnic identity and attempted to assimilate her from the moment of birth by bestowing an "approved" name, rather than the Kurdish one her family prefers. Elizium23 (talk) 04:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes and the discussion above with Persian rants is pure evil. Dustek (talk) 09:32, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Dustek, the next time you make a personal attack or go off-topic you will be reported to WP:ANI. It's quite ironic that you just accused me and others to be racist [5], but then use the word "Persian rants". --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:44, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

https://english.khamenei.ir/ brought down

Did Anonymous bring down english.khamenei.ir  ? 2601:C4:C300:A210:CCE:366A:4691:B368 (talk) 14:08, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

This article is about the death of Amini, not anything related to the reactions to the protests. AradTheSimp (talk) 23:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Mahsa Amini(Jina) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini(Jina) as the bio article is redundant. WWGB (talk) 06:58, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2022

Kurdish: ژینا ئەمینی SoniaHa (talk) 18:01, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

This is her name in kurdish SoniaHa (talk) 18:01, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The article already shows the name in Kurdish. Are you trying to correct it? It is not clear what edit you are asking for. RudolfRed (talk) 04:19, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Word of "Allegedly" is not fair

Hello @HistoryofIran, Some of users insist to put word of "Allegedly" to the article whereas the sources are saying something different and all sources and most of iranian people are sure Mahsa amini has been beaten by Guidance Patrol in custody beacause they have seen and experienced it thousands and thousands times themselves. this is why they reacted strongly to it.

please remove word of allegedly and chose better word for it because we see people have protested against the killing mahsa amini and this protest is bigger than any other one in the recent history of iran.H2KL (talk) 07:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Hey there! I get what you're saying there, I'm pretty certain she was beaten up too, based on her brain scan photos and the fact that it was reported that "she had suffered a heart attack" although she hadn't had any history of heart diseases, but do you really have video evidence of her getting beaten up? Nope, that's why they're using "Allegedly". AradTheSimp (talk) 07:41, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@AradTheSimp yes we have tens of videos similar to that in which you can see guidance patrol treat people very brutally. H2KL (talk) 07:56, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I get where the other users are coming from, this is mostly due to the guidelines here. However, perhaps we should reassess our sources? Because surely, the vast majority of sources (i.e. non IRI sources) consider this to be a murder. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:57, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Mahsa's family has hired a lawyer, Saleh Nikbakht, to pursue her case. The lawyer recently said that the policemen who arrested her had cameras on their clothes.

We will have more sources in the future. Thank you H2KL (talk) 10:10, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@H2KL Currently[6] none of the cited sources for "Skull fracture caused by severe trauma" in the infobox actually state, in their own voice, that this is the cause of death. Our "cause of death" entry should either be left blank, or should note the cause is alleged. This is doubly true for reporting on the skull fracture; while I don't personally think she died of an unrelated condition, it is quite possible as far as we know that the cause of death was some other police-inflicted injury but not a skull fracture per se. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 07:50, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps something like: "Multiple injuries and traumas (including a skull fracture)" i.e.: the collective abuse, would suffice. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:49, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I've added a 'disputed' tag to see if we can get some more input, but I can't see any way to reporting a beating or the skull fracture as facts given the existing sources. I don't have a good alternative explanation, but nonetheless we have to defer to the WP:RS. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 06:39, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

All refs removed from "circumstances of death"

Hello @WWGB:. You've stripped the section "Circumstances of death" naked of its references. Was there a good reason for that?-- Ideophagous (talk) 06:04, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

@Ideophagous: thanks for that. I have no idea how it happened. I think I have fixed it. Please let me know if you see further problems. Regards, WWGB (talk) 06:23, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

It looks fine to me. Thanks. :) Ideophagous (talk) 06:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Government coroner investigation results

The state-funded coroner said the death of the 22-year-old was due to pre-existing medical conditions and a previous brain tumor.[Mahsa Amini didn't die of blows to head and limbs, Iranian coroner says | CBC News 2601:C4:C300:A210:8192:1706:AEFF:8CD0 (talk) 15:22, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Street to be named after her in Paris

Maybe it would be good to also mention that the Mayor of Paris named a street after her if you can find some reliable source for it, I heard about it on the Mayor's Instagram but does that count as a source? Thomas Norren (talk) 06:53, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

It will be officially proposed, on a mayor's assembly on 11 October, that a yet to be specified public location in Paris be named after her, and that she becomes posthumously an "honorary citizen". Source in French. It can be added to the article.--Ideophagous (talk) 18:34, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok well someone can add it then, even if it falls through I think it's worth mentioning to show how big her legacy is. Thomas Norren (talk) 15:18, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Identity

@Serchia: Feel free to take your concerns here. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

As you and many others know, besides the identity of "Iranian", many ethnics in Iran want to be known by their ethnic identity, especially in the case of Kurdish people. We can use Iranian-Kurdish term here without any problems, as this is also seen in other articles. Serchia (talk) 18:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

No, I dont know that, and I highly doubt you do as well. I also highly doubt you can speak for others. And lasty, no thats irrelevant per MOS:ETHNICITY (as youve been told thrice now). Her sad death has to do with the misugony of the authoritian regime, nothing to do with her origins nor your want or needs, this honestly looks like WP:POV. Her Kurdish origins are already mentioned down below, where its actually appropiate. HistoryofIran (talk)

For Kurds in Iran or elsewhere its clear their preferred identity to be known for is "Kurdish", I can speak for that. I also saw a screenshot of Zhina's Instagram, which showed there is "Kurdish girl" in the bio. Mentioning ethnicity here is relevant as it is also mentioned by many international media channels (Reuters, BBC, Al-Jazeera), therefore I include this to the article, if there are not further comments from other users. Serchia (talk) 22:09, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

According to whom? You? Sorry, but your personal opinion don't count as a reliable source (that goes for others including me as well for that matter). I could likewise link multiple sources that simply call her “Iranian”, what you are doing is called cherry-picking. Anyways, all this is irrelevant, why?; I ask you for the fourth and last time to read MOS:ETHNICITY, what does it say? HistoryofIran (talk) 22:18, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The reason is clear and it doesn't need further explanation, also I didn't remove the term Iranian last time, so don't worry if it is the thing you are worrying about. 16:17, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

That's not what I was "worrying" about, it seems you missed my point. Also, how is it clear? You are also clearly refusing to talk about MOS:ETHNICITY, so let me quote it for you; "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability.[a]." It's really distasteful to be fixated on ones ethnicity in an article about a person who was essentially murdered by an authoritarian regime due to being a woman. If you continue edit warring, you will be reported for WP:POV and WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:19, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

"By October 2022, hundreds of people were reportedly killed"

I avoid bold editing because I understand the article is very contentious.

This sentence from the lead stroke me as unclear and not informative - who killed them, and who reported this? I checked the quoted source, Voice of America (VOA) [7] and it doesn't mention "hundreds" of people but says:

Rights groups say more than 185 people have been killed, hundreds injured, and thousands arrested by security forces confronting protests. (...) The Norway-based Iran Human Rights said at least 185 people had been killed in the protests

Therefore, I propose we modify the sentence as follows:

By October 2022, Iran Human Rights reported that at least 185 people were killed by security forces confronting protests across the country

We could also add a link to the article on the website of Iran Human Rights:"Iran Protests: at Least 185 Killed/19 Children Amongst Dead". Iran Human Rights. 2022-10-08. Retrieved 2022-10-10. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Support.-- Ideophagous (talk) 08:12, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

EDIT REQUEST:

Please add info about the Iranian journalist who first reported on Mahsa Amini; this journalist is named Niloofar Hamedi, and she was arrested and detained after reporting on the story.

Hey everyone, this should probably be added to the article. Very important detail about the story of Mahsa Amini's death! Please mention the role of Niloofar Hamedi's reporting and about her arrest. Thank you! Here are some sources:

At least 9 killed as Iran protests over woman's death spread - ABC News (22 September)
Niloufar Hamedi, a journalist who took photographs at the hospital after Amini's death, was arrested in Iran on Thursday, according to the reporter's lawyer, Mohammadali Kamfirouzi. He said her house was raided. There was no official comment.

'We are risking death': Iranians on Mahsa Amini protests - The Guardian (23 September)
This morning they raided the house of journalist Niloofar Hamedi and detained her. We have no knowledge of her whereabouts.

Iran arrests activist, journalist who helped expose case of Mahsa Amini: Reports - Al Arabiya News (23 September)
Iranian security forces have arrested one of Iran’s most prominent civil society activists and a journalist who played a key role in exposing the case of Mahsa Amini that sparked nationwide protests, reports said Friday. Majid Tavakoli, an activist who has been repeatedly imprisoned in Iran in recent years including after disputed 2009 elections, was arrested overnight at his home, his brother Mohsen wrote on Twitter.
Another prominent activist still based in Iran, Hossein Ronaghi, was giving an interview to London-based channel Iran International when security agents came to his home, the channel said. A video published by the channel shows Ronaghi looking anxious but insisting the interview carried on. It said the activist, who campaigns for freedom of expression, and contributes to the Washington Post, managed to escape arrest by slipping out via his building’s car park and later issued a video message from an undisclosed location.
Meanwhile Nilufar Hamedi, a Tehran journalist who went to the hospital where Amini lay in a coma and helped expose the case to the world, has been arrested, the Shargh daily newspaper, for which she works, wrote on Telegram.

Iranian journalist arrested after reporting Mahsa Amini’s injuries - thetimes.co.uk (27 September)
An Iranian newspaper journalist who played an important role in covering the death of Mahsa Amini at the hands of Iran’s morality police is being held in solitary confinement.
Niloufar Hamedi was arrested after breaking the news that Amini, 22, was in hospital following her arrest this month for "unsuitable attire" by the police force, which enforces the Islamic Republic’s strict dress code. Hamedi is one of several reporters detained during the country’s worst protests since 2019.
After reporting that Amini, from the Iranian Kurdish city of Saqez, had been transferred to Kasra Hospital, Hamedi published a photo of her parents hugging each other in the hospital corridor, which spread rapidly online.

An Iranian Journalist Who Reported on Mahsa Amini’s Death Is Now in Solitary Confinement - Mother Jones (28 September)
An Iranian journalist who reported on the death of Mahsa Amini has been thrown into solitary confinement, with no information about the charges against her, amid a major crackdown on the press in the country. Niloufar Hamedi, a reporter at the Tehran-based Shargh newspaper, was among the first to write about Amini, 22, who fell into a coma and died on September 16 after Iran’s morality police apprehended her and brought her to a "re-education" center for not wearing her hijab properly. Authorities say Amini died after a heart attack, but her family says she had no prior health problems and accuse the police of beating her.
Hamedi took a photograph that went viral of Amini's grief-stricken parents hugging in the hospital, according to the news site IranWire, which wrote about the reporter's incarceration on Monday. At least 18 journalists have been arrested in Iran since the demonstrations began, according to the nonprofit Committee to Protect Journalists. Press freedom groups have called for their immediate release. "They were doing their jobs," the Association of Iranian Journalists said in a statement. The country has also experienced a near internet shutdown and disruptions to phone and social media networks that have made it more difficult to share news. "[T]he Iranian authorities are sending a clear message that there must be no coverage of the protests," the Middle East desk of Reporters Without Borders, another nonprofit, said in a statement. "We demand the immediate release of these journalists and the immediate lifting of all restrictions on Iranians' right to be informed."
Hamedi, the journalist who took the photograph, was arrested by Ministry of Information agents last Thursday, according to IranWire, and is now being held in Evin Prison. Other arrested journalists may also be stuck in isolation, a way for authorities to keep them separate from the political prisoners in the prisons' general population units. In any case, they and other protesters likely face brutal conditions in incarceration: One Iranian woman told the BBC that she was detained in a small room with 60 women, with no space to sit or move. "They said we could not use the bathroom, and that if we got hungry we could eat our stools," she said. "After almost a day, when we shouted and protested inside the room, they started threatening us that if we didn't keep quiet, they would rape us."
Hamedi's husband, Mohammad Hossein Ajorlou, was reportedly able to talk with his wife on Monday, and says she is trying to stay calm in solitary as she waits for more information about her case.

Mahsa Amini: An Iranian journalist broke the news of the death. Now she's in jail - Middle East Eye (29 September)
Niloofar Hamedi had long been interested and concerned over the influence of the "morality police" in Iranian society and the role they played in enforcing mandatory headscarf laws in the country. On 16 September, the reporter, who works for the reformist daily newspaper Shargh, managed to gain access to Kasra hospital in Tehran where a 22-year-old Mahsa Amini was being treated following her detention by the morality police for allegedly wearing her hijab inappropriately.
The young Kurdish woman had, according to police, suffered a sudden heart problem, but her parents disputed this. She would die later that day. That same Friday Hamedi tweeted a photo of Amini's parents crying in the hospital. The picture quickly spread along with Hamedi's reporting on Amini's death, eventually spiralling into nationwide protests ...
On 22 September, Hamedi was arrested. "This morning, security agents raided the house of my client Niloofar Hamedi, journalist of Shargh newspaper, arrested her, searched her house and confiscated her belongings," wrote her lawyer Mohammad Ali Kamfirouzi on Twitter. At the same time, her Twitter account, where she had originally posted the influential photo of Amini's parents, was suspended without explanation. According to Kamfirouzi, Hamedi is being held in solitary confinement in Tehran’s Evin prison, where she has been interrogated. She has not been told of any other charges against her.

Thanks everyone. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 01:37, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand the reason for this request; such a level of detail about Niloofar Hamedi should go in the Niloofar Hamedi article you linked to, not here. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 04:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

@Rolf h nelson: The reason for the request? Niloofar Hamedi isn't even mentioned once in this article!

There is ZERO mention of the fact that she is the journalist who broke the story about Mahsa Amini, and has since been arrested and detained. She took photos that went viral, etc.

The level of detail above is just excerpts from sources. Take your pick. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 05:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

OK, I added a mention. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 06:17, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you!!! : )

Sorry it wasn't more clear. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 06:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

More on the reverted revisions of @HistoryofIran

Hey @HistoryofIran, I noticed that you removed some content by making a change directly, and not discussing it in advance in the talk page. Before you do something like that, you should bring your intents here and let it be discussed briefly. Also, please read Wikipedia:Consensus. Roj im (talk) 15:35, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

The Kurdish transliteration is something new that was added, therefore I am not violating anything. In fact, you are the one violating it. I have already explained my reasoning [8]. However, you are yet to do that. You even put the Kurdish transliteration before the Persian one this time, the sole official language of the country. Care to explain why you did that as well? --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:52, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: I repeat, the revision message is not enough reasoning. You should provide reliable sources. Please refer to Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources. I also did not add anything, I just improved the currently existing content. I would not revert your revisions this time, but let a moderator get involved. Roj im (talk) 18:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Provide reliable sources? For what? Sorry, but that’s not how discussions work here, nor real life for that matter; Could you explain yourself? And why you put Kurdish before the only official language of the country? HistoryofIran (talk)

@HistoryofIran: Could you please give me the ID of the revision where I added any content stating that Kurdish is the official language of anywhere? Roj im (talk) 18:35, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Huh? I was referring to Persian, you know, the sole official language of Iran? Please re-read my comment(s). Moreover, I am still awaiting an explanation from you. Since you like to attempt to lecture me with guidelines, let me return the favour; please read WP:STONEWALLING. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:40, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: I assume that you are saying something like "I demoted Persian" or "I promoted Kurdish", and I asked for the ID of the revision where I added some content like that. Also, what explanation do you want from me? That you remove every "Kurdish" you see in the article by specifying the reason in your revision message? This recent revision is enough explanation for anyone. I did not even involve in that section :) Roj im (talk) 19:04, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran and Roj im: There's no point in squabbling. Since she has Kurdish background, and her name is known in Kurdish as well as in Persian, I think both can be added. Preferably with Persian first, given that it's the official language of Iran.-- Ideophagous (talk) 19:10, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ideophagous Sorry, but I disagree. Kurdish has no official status in Iran or anything like that, and her Kurdish background has nothing to do with this unfortunate event. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:19, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: If you're trying to work with Iran and its official languages, there are around a thousand articles to play with. You may also start by attempting to remove every "Kurdish" you see in the article Saqqez. Roj im (talk) 19:21, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

If you have nothing to say, kindly stop derailing this thread. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

It's not about the official status or lack thereof. This is not an article about Iran or an official government body in that country. Since the name in Kurdish is relevant to her background, it can help users find more information about her, and also show up more easily in searches if the name in Kurdish is included. I agree that excessive references to her Kurdish background should be avoided as well.-- Ideophagous (talk) 19:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but then why did you change it from 'Iranian' to 'Kurdish'? [9]. I have reverted this per MOS:CONTEXTBIO. Her Kurdish background has nothing to do with his event. So I don't see why her name in Kurdish should be here either. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:27, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I copied the old lead from a previous edit, which was changed by an IP. Didn't notice the "Kurdish" part. Ideophagous (talk) 19:30, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the opinion, @Ideophagous. I actually am not the one who added her name in Kurdish, neither the one who put it to the first. I just saw the removal of it, and I wanted to discuss the matter. Roj im (talk) 19:19, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

and while you're squabbling over these minor issues, the article actually needs serious improvement of many of its sections, and should preferably have a background section as well, which explains the situation of women in Iran, regarding hijab law, police treatment, etc.--Ideophagous (talk) 19:25, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm with HistoryofIran on this. She was born in Kurdistan, but she was an Iranian woman. She could have been equally born in one of the other provinces that have their own ethnic groups and languages, such as Lorestan, Mazandaran, Gilan, or Azerbaijan, but she would still be Iranian. And even though many languages exist within Iran, the sole official language is Persian. Not to mention that her ethnicity is totally unrelated to what actually happened to her. Keivan.f^Talk 04:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I just don't see the harm in including her name in Kurdish in the lead for the reasons I mentioned above. Ideophagous (talk) 06:22, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

"Her Kurdish background has nothing to do with his event." - That doesn’t mean that we can't put her Kurdish name in the article. This reason isn’t enough to remove the name. Because if the kurdish name doesn’t affect the article or description of the event then we should keep the name. If anyone want to remove the Kurdish name then they should explain in a logical and correct way that how her Kurdish name can affect the article. Mehedi Abedin 06:42, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

And so why should we exactly add a name that is irrelevant? How come the other explanations aren't "logical and correct"? --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

The Kurdish name is relevant to her cultural background, therefore it should be added. Any other references to "Kurds" or Kurdish culture, should on the other hand only be included if they're directly relevant to the content. Pushing this too far in either direction (removing all references to her Kurdish background or putting too much of it) is basically inviting vandalism. I would not fault Kurds if they try to modify the article if they see that it purposefully eliminates any mention of her being a Kurdish-Iranian, which is a given fact. But once again, I agree that her being Kurdish is irrelevant to the subject matter (as an Iranian, she would have been subject to the same treatment regardless of her background), and therefore that should not be included for no good reason. The name in Kurdish however is fine to include. This is most certainly not the same thing as including the Kurdish name for someone who has nothing to do with Kurds or Kurdish culture, contrary to what you wrote somewhere above. Ideophagous (talk) 10:19, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

"Her Kurdish background has nothing to do with his event" is what I wrote, which I still stand by. She died due to the hijab regulations, not her Kurdish background. This article is about her unfortunate death, which is notable, not her as an actual person. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

... and her name in Kurdish is still relevant to the article. There's no point in being ultra-nationlistic about this. Just concede this point, and let's move on to more important issues with the article that should be improved. Also please read Wikipedia:Etiquette.-- Ideophagous (talk) 10:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Quite rich that you accuse me of being ultra-nationalistic and then proceed to advice me to read Wikipedia:Etiquette. Feel free to read it yourself and then WP:ASPERSIONS and WP:NPA. When you're ready to have a calm discussion without attacking others, feel free to reply to my arguments. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

You've just proved my point. Have a good day.-- Ideophagous (talk) 10:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

That made no sense, but sure. And likewise. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Per MOS:CONTEXTBIO: "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability."

Mahsa Amini was a citizen of Iran, born and raised in Iran. Her province of origin is not an autonomous region, nor a federal subject. Her tragic death, according to the sources at our disposal, simply had nothing to do with her Kurdishness. It was all due to the appaling human rights (and in particular, women's rights) in the country. In addition, Iran's sole official language is Persian. Kurdish doesn't hold official status. IMO, adding the Kurdish transliteration to the lede or material about her Kurdish origins diverts (read: WP:UNDUE) from what is going on atm in Iran per the sources; namely a nationwide uprising. It is not a "Kurdish uprising". I don't see any reason to add the Kurdish translit or her Kurdish roots to the lede of this article per these arguments and Wikipedia policies. However, I'm up for adding content about her Kurdish roots (and perhaps even the Kurdish transliteration) to the body of the article. - LouisAragon (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

There's absolutely no reason why her Kurdish name shouldn't be included on the infobox, at the very least. Is there any disagreement on that point? Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 22:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Fully protected

I really didn't want to do this to an article being updated so much, but I've fully protected the article for 12 hours due to multi-party edit-warring over whether and how to mention Amini's Kurdish background. @LouisAragon, Pirehelokan, Mitrayasna, Alexcalamaro, Keivan.f, HistoryofIran and Roj im and Semsûrî: Please discuss, and discuss civilly or I'm going to have to start handing out partial blocks or WP:ARBKURDS sanctions. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 19:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Not sure why I am included when I edited the page twice cleaning up the templates and not involved in the disputes. Semsûrî (talk) 19:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@Semsûrî: Apologies. Lots of diffs. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 21:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@Tamzin: So I assume we have to reply here? Though I'm not entirely sure who I am writing this for because no one else has responded. To make my stance clear, I simply believe that when including the native name, the official language of the country to which she belonged should be given preference. Thus, in the lede, Persian should come first, as that is the sole official language of Iran. Yes, she was from Kurdistan and could converse in Kurdish as well, but her ethnicity has nothing to do with her tragic death. She could have been born in another province, and her ethnic language could have been Azerbaijani, Gilkai, Mazanderani, Luri, etc. So the Persian equivalent of the name has to be included and has to come first as she was an Iranian woman, but if people insist on including Kurdish too, that would be fine with me personally. As another user pointed out, sometimes we "do this with people from places with regional languages, as Catalan". And hopefully we can get over this trivial issue now, because the article needs improvement. Keivan.f^Talk 01:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh, and if others refuse to speak their mind, then I suppose this suggestion could be implemented (Persian, followed by Kurdish), and anyone who changes the structure of the first sentence again would face the consequences. So please make sure to reply if you desire a different outcome. Keivan.f^Talk 01:59, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I also think this change (inclusion of her Kurdish name) should be made on the infobox as well.

And for anyone who thinks that her being Kurdish is somehow not relevant, here is something from a recent Washington Post article:

Videos show protesters, some speaking Kurdish, taking to the streets in Kamyaran and Abdanan, near Iran’s border with Iraq. Many of the protests have been concentrated in the west, the poor, predominantly Kurdish region Amini’s family hails from. The Kurds — who speak their own language, have a distinct cultural identity and are mostly Sunni Muslims in a majority-Shiite country — have complained for decades of neglect by the central government.

Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 02:13, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Nobody denied that Kurds are being oppressed. At this point, many ethnic groups are being abused in Iran, but the factor that influenced the subject's arrest was her gender and her alleged refusal to conform with hijab laws, not her ethnicity. I think for the sake for simplicity, we can only include Persian and Kurdish equivalents in the lede and don't have them listed on the infobox, as in my opinion it would make it unnecessarily long. But again, let's see what others think. Keivan.f^Talk 03:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Keivan.f: Thank you for your comment. I do not recall anything in Wikipedia policies about having a name only in the official language of a country. Why the Kurdish spelling of her name should be removed especially knowing that her name was actually Kurdish. The linguistic issue aside, removing the Kurdish spelling is against Wikipedia:neutrality. This is especially crucial knowing the prosecution against Kurdish language. Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral. Wikipedia is not Iran, and Iranian law about languages does not apply. Thanks. Pirehelo (talk) 04:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

It is regrettable that at this time when a country is in turmoil, we are sitting here discussing trivial issues that bore no influence on the tragedy that happened to this woman. Yes, many ethnic groups have been prosecuted in Iran and Kurds especially suffered the consequences, yet the subject's ethnicity was not the reason for which she was prosecuted and most probably killed. It seems that some people fail to understand this. This is an issue that is affecting all Iranian women regardless of their ethnicity, religion, or political opinions. As I said earlier, both the Persian and Kurdish equivalents can be included. There's no point in hashing and rehashing the same things all over again. Keivan.f^Talk 04:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed that the subject's ethnicity likely had very little to do with what happened to her, but as this is a page about her (and her death), it also serves in part as her biography, and therefore is important to include her Kurdish name as well as her Persian name. There are plenty of pages about American individuals, for example, that also mention their Chinese or Japanese names, etc. etc. Seems like it should be uncontroversial to just mention both versions of her name and move on. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 05:09, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

It has a lot to do with what happened to her, anonymous. Dustek (talk) 09:33, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

A Persian women has less chance of being beaten to death. Half of the people Iran executes are Kurdish despite the population being much smaller. You think that's accidental? A statistical fluke? Dustek (talk) 09:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Source? --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:42, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support Keivan.f proposal to just add in the lead her Persian name followed by her Kurdish one. Also in the infobox (for coherence). My rationale follows all comments made above by Ideophagous. I hope this solution will close the discussion. Alexcalamaro (talk) 05:43, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support per Alexcalamaro --Ideophagous (talk) 07:06, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support same as Alexcalamaro — Roj im (talk) 07:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
•  Administrator note Protection has now expired. It looks like y'all are close to consensus here, if not already there, which is great. To avoid conflict going forward, I have placed a discretionary sanctions restriction under the Kurds and Kurdistan authorization: 1 revert regarding the Kurdish people or Kurdistan per editor per 24 hours. Note that this is a bit narrower than the full "Kurds or Kurdistan" topic area, to avoid a situation where any edit about Amini, even ones unrelated to her Kurdishness, would be caught by the restriction. (That said, I encourage editors to hold to such a restriction even where not required.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 08:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  Hey @Tamzin: @Mitrayasna just reverted your change of adding her name in Kurdish to the info box, and the first lang-ku template. All without previous agreements. Should we re-add the cleanup tag? — Roj im (talk) 09:12, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  That was not my change, but rather Keivan.f's. As an administrator acting here in an administrative capacity, it is not my place to make content decisions. However, in light of the consensus above, @Mitrayasna: I would encourage you to to revert your edit and instead continue this discussion. Please also note that if someone else reverts it, the one-revert rule in place for content on this page about the Kurdish people and Kurdistan would prevent you from reverting in turn in the next 24 hours. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 09:25, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  There is no consensus. Kurdish writing about the name of Mahsa is a subject that has been added. First, there should be a consensus on it, then changes should be made. Mitrayasna (talk) 09:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Tamzin: Should we start another poll to re-add "Mahsa Amini" in Kurdish? — Roj im (talk) 09:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  I think we have a good enough discussion going here without it being a formal RfC, but that's really up to y'all. What matters is discussing rather than edit-warring, so I'm heartened to see all this. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 09:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

This lady's local name is Jina and her official name is Mahsa. In the case of Mahsa's name, I agree that there should be only Persian spellings, but in the case of Jina's name, there should be both spellings. Mitrayasna (talk) 08:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support adding the Kurdish transliteration to Zhina Amini as a comprise. She was born and raised in Iran, where Persian is the sole official language. Her Kurdishness had nothing to do with her unfortunate death, which is the subject here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:40, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Initially, there was her name in Kurdish. An editor removed it insisting that it was not a necessity. I discussed the matter, we didn't agree, there was a sort of edit warring, then we got a third opinion, we edited it as the third opinion suggested, the warring continued, the page got protected, a poll was started, the poll ended, the article was edited again as suggested by the poll results, the protection went away, an editor reverted the poll suggestions partially by editing the article directly without previous agreements, and then the poll pivoted from "to have her name in Kurdish or not" to "to have only one version her name in Kurdish or both" and "to have her name in Kurdish in the infobox or not". Now I want to know if the partial revert of the poll results by @Mitrayasna was a good thing or not. I think since we all agreed on that, it should be reverted. — Roj im (talk) 10:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Was this really neccesary? There is already an ongoing discussion up above. Also, Roj im, you're yet to actually come with a single argument, so you obviously didn't "discuss" anything. You could perhaps start with that. And as Mitrayasna already stated, no WP:CONSENSUS had been made. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:09, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I see it as necessary because there is an inconsistency, you tried to move the goal of the original poll, and @Mitrayasna reverted what we all agreed on without previous discussions. Roj im (talk) 10:23, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Not related to resolving this content dispute. Can be discussed further at Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement or Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents if necessary. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 15:51, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I haven't tried to move anything, I simply stated my opinion. Heck, I even made a comprimise. Meanwhile you have been WP:STONEWALLING for two days straight, keen on only making Kurdish-related edits and especially attempting to add her Kurdish name in an article about the death of a poor woman, with an account with under 100 edits; this seems very reminiscent of WP:SPA. What is "We all agreed on without previous discussions" supposed to mean? How about giving the discussion a change to continue and a WP:CONSENSUS to ensure? --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC) It's really clear for anyone to know who is stonewalling, some people who are directly reverting or removing everything they personally don't agree on, without caring about anything, or some other who want to discuss what is wrong with them. — Roj im (talk) 10:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC) 'Sigh', that's not what stonewalling means. You keep proving my point. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:38, 23 September 2022 (UTC) Yes, I, for real, proved your point of trying to enforce an outer agenda on Wikipedia. Let me prove it more, here is a list of your (mostly revert) diffs of trying to do this: - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111626619&oldid=1111624765 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111583463&oldid=1111583421 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111581943&oldid=1111580896 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111575757&oldid=1111575100 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111553249&oldid=1111553159 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111552995&oldid=1111552114 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111533134&oldid=1111533013 - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111533013&oldid=1111527688 It's literally every single contribution that you have made to the article. — Roj im (talk) 10:44, 23 September 2022 (UTC) Lol, how does this prove that I have an agenda? I could also post your diffs and say the exact same, it would just look even worse since 99% of your account edits are attempting to insert something Kurdish related here (further proving WP:SPA). Anyways, let's not derail any further. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:50, 23 September 2022 (UTC) Could you do that, please? I would really be glad to know where I was not right. 99% of my contributions, if is related to contents in the Kurdish language, they are only modifications, and not edits. Also, if I would judge like you, I could say that the 99% of your contributions is for denouncing any "Kurdish" you see. For that reason, you would be more applicable for a vandalism-dedicated single-purpose account. — Roj im (talk) 10:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC) I would like to repeat, I am not the one who added her name in Kurdish. I am only here to know more about the constant effort being made on removing any "Kurdish" that can be seen in the article, without caring about any consensus that has been made. — Roj im (talk) 10:56, 23 September 2022 (UTC) So 99% of my 73,978 edits are denouncing anything "Kurdish"? You are just blabbering at this rate. It seems you clearly don't know what WP:SPA nor WP:Vandalism means either. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:58, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Not only is it unnecessary, it is harmful and confusing

1. Mahsa Amini is mentioned in the world sources

2. In Iranian sources it is said مهسا امینی and sometimes ژینا امینی

3. In local sources, it is mentioned as ژینا and sometimes مهسا

It can be said that مه هسا ​​has almost zero use Mitrayasna (talk) 10:33, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

You could have said all this before making a direct change. But anyway, I appreciate that you're at least trying to make a point now. — Roj im (talk) 10:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

This is not the case at all. Her name is everywhere in Persian and is preferable to other pronunciations. Also, his English name is exactly derived from the Persian pronunciation of the name (مهسا).

The matching of this girl's Latin name with the Persian pronunciation of Mahsa is a strong reason to write only the Persian spelling of her name. Mitrayasna (talk) 10:16, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Her being Kurdish is also a strong reason to include her name in that format as well. Why is it so problematic to include both? Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 17:41, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I explained above.Mitrayasna (talk) 21:56, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mitrayasna: If you were Kurdish, or had a Kurdish name ... something tells me that you would be thinking very differently about the issue of representation and identity etc. It seems like the respectful and decent thing to do, by including both forms of her name, as it now appears in the lede of the article. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 23:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

By the way, I am from Urmia and my mother is Kurdish, please don't make the issue personal.Thank You Mitrayasna (talk) 23:17, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm just saying that it's easy to overlook things based on where our perspective is coming from. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 23:21, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Changing name to Kurdish transliteration

Altering every instance of a subjects name without moving the page is disruptive. An IP user is doing that, and needs to engage in discussion, per the Bold, Revert, Discuss cycle, rather than just "Bold, Revert, Revert...". Why should the Kurdish name be used when it has already been determined by the first section on this page that the Persian name should go first, per WP:COMMMONNAME, then the Kurdish transliteration? Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 02:47, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

When a death is not a death

How unusual not to report the death of an individual in an article about her death.[10] WWGB (talk) 06:38, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

The death is already apparent from the title and in the article text, it doesn't need to be a line-item in the infobox as well. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 02:09, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2022

"referring to the protests[112]" needs a "." at the end of the sentence YASYASHACKER (talk) 01:24, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 01:49, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• 1979 Iranian Women Day's protests against Hijab.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:53, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The profile image does not quite resemble other photos of Mahsa Amini

I doubt that the fair use file

File:Mahsa Amini.jpeg

is actually Mahsa Amini. Other photos of her face have a different bone structure.

If the only source is

)	https://women.ncr-iran.org/2022/09/16/mahsa-zhina-amini-dies-in-hospital/

then I would suggest deleting it.

Evidence that the fair use photo is actually her would be if protesters could be seen using this photo. But I see none. They used other photos.

A probability that the image is actually her is not enough for me. We need to have full confidence in it. Otherwise I would delete. TGcoa (talk) 21:56, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The Persian and Arab Wikipedia pages carry other photos of Mahsa Amini eg

https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DA%A9%D8%B4%D8%AA%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%B4%D8%AF%D9%86_%D9%85%D9%87%D8%B3%D8%A7_%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%86%DB%8C

Even if this photo does represent Mahsa Amini, there'd still be the question whether this is an appropriate photo. TGcoa (talk) 10:16, 14 September 2023 (UTC)