Talk:Deathcore/Archive 1

No mention of slam death, NYHC, tough guy hardcore?

-- Really? I mean, slam death practically sounds like deathcore and also features "slamming" breakdowns. Deathcore sounds like a fusion between slam death and TGHC/NYHC to be specific. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.254.36.110 (talk) 20:26, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Skepticism

--Are you kidding me? someone actually took all this time to make a page about a completely made-up, fabricated, hypothetical genre? there is one band that fits this genre, but even then, only loosely, and that's Job For A Cowboy. and even so, it still seems more accurate to label them as what they really are: a mix of Death Metal and Hardcore/Metalcore. Now, I'm not much of an editor here... i have only done very limited work, and even got in trouble once... so you're more than entitled to discard my opinion... but i say trash it, it's a waste of server space. - AeturnalNarcosis 7.Aug.2007

Waste of server space? Man you have a bug up your ass. Listen, deathcore does exist, and Job For A Cowboy weren't the only band. Please refer to the list of notable deathcore band presented lovingly at the bottom of the page. Listen to the bands. Learn. That is all.

Uhm... Bring Me The Horizon, Despised Icon, Kataklysm, Beneath The Sky, Animosity, Black Dahlia Murder and Glass Casket are all Deathcore. Deathcore is a mix of "Death Metal" and "Post-hardcore". ≈ Maurauth ^(Ravenor) 16:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

this is off topic, but Kataklysm is definitely NOT "deathcore" or whatever other made-up genres these cretins want to apply to death metal bands that don't sound like Deicide or Cannibal Corpse. Kataklysm is death metal, end of story. as for the others, animosity and beneath the sky, i'd say are a mix of hardcore/metalcore and death metal.... and believe me, the black dahlia murder is NOT "deathcore" ... they're just melodic death metal.

back on topic: point is, it's useless to keep creating new genres.... there will always be bands who mix different styles... if we keep creating new genres for every band that mixes 2 styles, we'll end up with thousands of genres, each one specific to only a couple of bands. just imagine, if a band comes out that uses extremely fast blast beat drums with high pitched riffage AND death grunts, screaches, harcore yelling, and rapcore vocals about very gloomy subjects.... will we have to make up a whole new genre called "brutalblackeneddoomrapdeathgrindmetalcore"? to be frank, it's fucking retarded. it has to stop somewhere before it gets even more ridiculous than it is. AeturnalNarcosis 9.Aug.2007

so, when you all get bored of hardcore and make it even more hardcore, are you going to call it corecore? - AN 17.aug

So, uh basically this genre is metalcore but slightly more influenced by standard death metal and not melodic death metal? Or what? I'm honestly kind of confused about why none of these bands couldn't fit into another subgenre of metal. - Razorhead 9 August 2006

This article is a bit to definite for a style that is just begining to emerge. The term was thrown around in the mid-90s but had no clear band that formed or led the scene. To this day, bands like Despised Icon and Through the Eyes of the Dead are only called Deathcore because the fit into both categories and are too extreme to be considered metalcore. Speaking of which, the references to heavy metal are rather redundent as death metal is an obvious subgenre to it. Also bands like Ion Dissonance are way to core to be deathcore. I'll get around to editing the actual page on day.--Daevin 05:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Hardcore isn't a kind of heavy metal. I feel like this is just a made up genre, as The Black Dahlia Murder is usually called melodic death metal.

Just letting you know, Kataklysm is a HUGE influence on the deathcore. Probably the most well-known at that too. Should add them.

so because a couple bands try to emulate kataklysm's PURE DEATH METAL sound, but with minor metalcore influences, that makes kataklysm "deathcore?" i never would have thought this requires repetition, but kataklysm is death metal. simple as that. their older albums had a little bit of a black metal sound to it, but not enough to classify them as 'black-death hybrid' or whatever, and certainly no 'metalcore' or 'hardcore' influence. period. AeturnalNarcosis

This article is so wrong and pointless my teeth ache. Death metal with more muted drumwork? Please. And last time i checked, Cryptopsy was brutal/technical death metal. Gofur 18:28, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

There are a few bands that don't belong there. For intance The Black Dahlia Murder is melodic death metal and not deathcore. The same goes for Through The Eyes of The Dead. And omfg especially not See You Next Tuesday as they are more like noiscore/grindcore with death growls. Deathcore is always brutal, and is closely related to Death/Grind, but you can tell the differance. The bands that I strongly feel are Deathcore are Animosity, All Shall Perish, Suicide Silence, and Job For A Cowboy.

I think this artcile should be revised, mainly concerning actual musical attributes. BREE on the palm mutes? whats that about? theres proabably palm mutes in more deathcore riffs than not. --Xdiabolicalx 19:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I Agree, but know nothing about the genre. If you feel you can improve it, please be bold. Rockpocket 22:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Yo! you (the author of this page) has misspelled the band name Neaera, it says "Naera" (sorry if i dont know really how to post a discussion message in the right way, i'm a n00b on wiki ;))

Personally, I would describe Deathcore as a more brutal form of Metalcore, in the same way that Death Metal is a more brutal form of thrash. But the term Deathcore, or Death Metalcore, is definately a separate genre, and respected metal publication Metal Hammer has made multiple references to it in conjunction to Bring Me The Horizon, All Shall Perish, Glass Casket, Job for a Cowboy and Beneath the Sky. 89.242.148.102 17:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with whoever said JFAC was deathcore, they've got bree and all, put Job for a Cowboy up whoever can edit the article. The guy who just edits the talk page and asks for requests for more experienced people to do stuff

Muted drumwork

"... deathcore typically contains muted drumwork ..." - What is muted drumwork? - Quirk 15:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Made up term. Muted would imply a lack of sound (muting the tv), so a muted drum work would imply a lack of sound from the drums. (infact verbatim from Wikitionary)

"Adjective

mute (no comparative or superlative)

Silent; not making a sound.

(of a person) Not having the power of speech."

So please deathcore masters explain how you can have Muted that is Silent drums.Atechi 20:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it means the drumming isn't as cymbal-heavy as in other forms of metal. I don't know. But I do know drummers mute cymbals when they want to cut a hit short. 68.47.85.89 17:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

one should know that using denotative definition of a word to describe something in music doesn't work. A palm mute on a guitar doesn't take away the sound, neither does a mute on any brass instrument. Muted drums are in the same category.

Seriously, that was the worst argument I've ever heard, so please stop trying to flaunt your intelligence by quoting the dictionary. -WD 02:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above, it's likely to be drumming that uses large amounts of double bass and snare hits, and cymbals being silenced right after being hit. ≈ Maurauth ^{(nemesis~☆)} 12:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

If you don't think Glass Casket, Job for a Cowboy and Animosity are deathcore

then dear god you are NOT qualified at all for this subject

ok, well i have listened to Animosity and JFAC (no clue who Glass Casket is) and i still have no clue what deathcore is. so i guess they are just extreme metal bands for the time being. metalhead 03:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Deathcore is a mixture of hardcore and death metal. The vocals in Animosity are more on the death metal side, but the "gang chants" are typical hardcore. Breakdowns also come from hardcore, but the more complex guitar and drum work in many of Animosity's songs are death metal based. That's pretty much deathcore in a nutshell: death metal with breakdowns, gang chants, and the occasional 2-step part. BTW Glass Casket was pretty metalcore last I checked, I don't know if their newer music is any different.

Deathcore is a mixture of metalcore and Death metal, with a few hardcore influences (like gang chants). The riffing in deathcore is something unlike death metal and metalcore, yet very similar to both. Deathcore is death metal influenced metal core with breakdowns, gang chants, and the occasional 2-step. And I agree, Glass Casket is metalcore. Job For A Cowboy (DOOM ep, their new stuff is more strictly death metal) and Animosity are classic deathcore--as are Suicide Silence, Knights of the Abyss, and countless other myspace bands. 72.155.113.42 16:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Glass Casket doesn't sound like a majority of modern deathcore, but they should definitely be mentioned as one of the earlier acts to start producing this sound.

SFU, Despied Icon

Both iconic deathgrind (SFU being a Goregrind/Deathgrind) bands, and are not Deathcore. Atechi 20:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Six Feet Under is a death metal band, not any sort of grind. Bringer of Blood did have a strong hardcore punk sound at times, though, which is why many have called them "deathcore." 68.47.85.89 17:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Six Feet Under is Death Metal, period. Are The Beatles heavy for putting out Helter Skelter? No. Just because a song here or there may have influence from another genre, that doesn't mean they're linked. Chris Barnes (from what I gather) left Cannibal Corpse because he wanted lyrically driven songs, and the rest, like Alex Webster, wanted more of a musical approach, lyrics second. SFU takes Barnes' stance and CC since he left has been all instrumentally driven. SFU is Death metal, and I suggest they're removed from Deathcore. Vellocet Malchickawick

Despised Icon is purely deathcore. • GunMetal Angel 02:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Popularity

Deathcore is not some uber underground genre with zero popularity. Many deathcore bands have 10000+ friends on myspace, can feature on huge tours after releasing only a couple of demos etc. The truth is that deathcore is one of the more mainstream versions of death metal, mainly because of the fact that it relies heavily on metalcore style breakdowns which are popular at the moment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.229.10.161 (talk) 02:27, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

Some thoughts on deathcore

It might help to elaborate on to what extent Death metal and metalcore had on this style. Like which bands from each influenced deathcore. The page has improved alot from what it was but it still could use a little more detail because its relationship to its two parent genres is confusing. From the outset you can hear some death metal influence but it still sounds very different from more traditional stuff. However it seems like the style is more closely related to metalcore. If you go by the conventions deathcore bands seem to follow such as: hardcore style breakdowns, two-stepping parts, some although not many melodic parts similar to bands like As I lay dying and Darkest Hour, and even some hardcore style shout-outs. The pig squeels and inhaled gurgle like lows I would say are death metal or goregrind inspired. As far as the growling is inconcered it still sounds more like extra low metalcore/hardcore shouting. Rather than what you might hear coming from your average death metal band. Im in one way trying to insult deathcore or its fans. These are just some thoughts I had and hope everyone else has something to add too. Cause I think the page could do a better job describing the sound. Halfeatencorpse 01:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

---

Deathcore is a style of music that was born out of the metalcore scene (which was, effectively, born out of the hardcore scene), meaning most bands that are labeled as deathcore are simply playing what they know (metalcore) with a death metal influence (all of this you've mentioned, I know). However, unlike other genres, which have their own distinctions in sound that make the genre unique, modern Deathcore hasn't been around long to truly and concretely have its own distinctions (it doesn't help that most of the bands in the genre have similar sounds). It remains simply as death metal influenced metalcore, and it only receives notability in being a genre because it's so many bands have that sound. While many bands may fuse genres, a large (huge, search check out the list of top indie death metal bands on myspace) amount of bands have chosen to fuse these two genres, resulting in a thousand myspace bands with a genre listing of Death Metal/Metal/Hardcore, going back to the deathcore=death metal plus metalcore.

In summary, describing the genre as death metal influenced metalcore is the only way.

Also, as far as what bands inspired the genre, I would say Job For a Cowboy is extremely notable in bringing the genre to the mainstream (the mainstream being the teenage music scene). While they certainly were not the first, they were the most popular, as well as most stereotypical (chug chug breakdowns, death growls, pig squeals, and highs all in one) deathcore bands at its start.

Just my two cents. -WD 02:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Uh...

This article is totally unreferenced, and a heck of a lot looks like OR. Cleanup please?-K@ngie^meep! 23:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Well it's hard to provide references for a relatively new genre, when the only reliable sources are magazines describing certain bands, you have to go by those bands style of music and see what's common between all of them, which will of course sound like OR. ≈ Maurauth ^{(nemesis~☆)} 12:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we could manage to at least get three or four online references, though. I'll try, when I have the energy.Karen_Carpentry

This article needs to be deleted

If the genre exists, then how come no one can cite a proper source? You know a page should be deleted when MA is the most reliable source (MA cannot be used because it is user edited)...--Wick3dd 21:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's some homework for you. Follow the method in the above discussion that I suggested. Listen to the popular bands on the first three pages of the search results on myspace. Then listen to boring modern death like Decapitated and Devourment. Then check the Red Chord and Dying Fetus. Then listen to the bands listed on the "list of deathcore bands" article. Compare, contrast, rinse, wash, repeat, attain clarity.Karen_Carpentry

That is not proper sourcing. Also, your own POV is not necessary here. Whether you think a band is boring or not adds nothing to this topic.--Wick3dd 07:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware. And like I keep reiterating, I'm more than happy to have someone else improve the article as long as information is not lost. Actually, I'm sort of asking you to. It needs a lot of refinement, but it is what it is for the time being. And that "boring" comment was just a non-sequitur, try to not be so anal about a wikipedia discussion page. POV is more than appropriate for this section.Karen_Carpentry

Okay. Was not meaning to be accusatory. I will see what I can do, but I think it will be hard to find anything sourced. That deathcore exists is not the question, it is whether or not it is notable yet. --Wick3dd 08:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources used for AfD:

• metaleater.com Ciaran Meeks: "What is 'Deathcore' you ask? Well, in today's age of more sullen-faced 'cores' than you can shake a walletchain at, 'Deathcore' is apparently a mixture of Death Metal, Hardcore, and Grind, all mixed 'n mashed together to create a brutal and extreme 'new' hybrid".
• allmusic.com Alex Henderson: "The term is deathcore, ... What is deathcore? ..., it's essentially metalcore, which isn't to say that Burning Skies is an exact replica of American metalcore bands like Brick Bath, Hatebreed, and Throwdown -- they're similar, certainly, but not identical. Drawing on both death metal and hardcore, Burning Skies' vocals fluctuate between the tortured screaming that metalcore is known for and the deep, guttural growls of death metal. Arguably, deathcore as practiced by Burning Skies and similar bands is a European variation of American metalcore. But whether you choose to describe Murder By Means of Existence as deathcore or metalcore -- and perhaps both terms are applicable -- there is no getting around the fact that this is a very nasty, vicious, bruising sledgehammer of a CD."
• mtv.com/news Alexandre Erian: "I don't understand why people take labels so seriously," he continued. "I guess you could call us 'deathcore,' or 'death metal,' or 'death metalcore,' or 'death metal with metalcore influences,' or 'metalcore with death-metal influences.' I like to let the music speak for itself."
• List of deathcore bands as defined by Metal Observer /articles.php?lid=1&sid=5&a=ls&s=115 metal-observer.com
• popmatters.com Adrien Begrand: "such deathcore exercises as "Two Inches from a Main Artery" and "Beneath Dying Skies" combined Cannibal Corpse-style blasting with the melodic intricacy of Morbid Angel"

The allmusic source is good. We can use the allmusic source to back up the definition. Kameejl ^(Talk) 09:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

New revision looks really goodKaren_Carpentry (talk)

Brilliant. Thanks to all who contributed. I am constantly watching for vandalism and trolls and will continue to do so.--Wick3dd (talk) 03:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Since this is taken care of, the metalcore article is very very anemic for such an easy subject to write about and document. Should be fun.Karen_Carpentry (talk)

Stylistic origins of deathcore lie in metalcore, NOT death metal

I will cite the shit out of this, stop being a reactionary simpleton. Reply, and watch as I crumble your world with thorough and experienced explanations of your ignorance. And have the balls to leave your name. Seethingnuclearchaos (talk) 05:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Shane Mehling (source 5):

Deathcore is the subset of metalcore kids playing death metal.

Clearly, this source does not support the claim that deathcore is "a splinter sub-genre of metalcore."

The removed section (...many would argue that metalcore-derived genres have a feel and aesthetic that does not truly mesh with that of...purist metal subgenres...) was OR.

And don't be a dick. 68.47.81.164 (talk) 15:41, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Cry moar about civility. Try not living vicariously through your self-importance. Shit's OR. Oh and, the reference in it of itself might not provide a strong argument for metalcore, though it certainly does nothing for trying to elevate one for death metal. Don't replace perceived (yet cited) OR with your unwavering, misinformed, end-all-be-all, reactionary, and worst of all uncited OR. Seethingnuclearchaos (talk) 05:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh wait, you're the guy trying to go around and establish that Brutal Truth were never really a grindcore band. You're clearly on an ego-trip. Based on principle alone, you should leave this and all other seemingly impossibly improbable (TO YOU) articles untouched. Seethingnuclearchaos (talk) 05:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

--The sad flaw in your self-fellating logic is that this is clearly, to anyone who isn't a complete dullard, a metalcore subgenre, or branch if you will, and also, why do you keep putting "death metal", then? There's nothing there that supports that this is a death metal subgenre. So either provide that yourself, or back off and stop meddling for the sake of your own ego. You are wrong. And no one likes you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.49.9 (talk) 18:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Critisism

it should be added that there are some deathcore bands that belive they are grindcore and the scenesters that belive they are emos also think that which makes big hatred against this genere between true grindcore fans im not a hater at all, but is true: watch thid vid [1] watch the description of the video response [2] then its video responses watch this other vid too: [3] User:Sheish —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.164.252.78 (talk) 06:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Some truth to deathcore

alright as a true fan of this genre that does exist i am sick of the stupidity on this page. although job for a cowboy was one of the first premier and popular deathcore bands with doom, they are now totally death metal and there are so many more deathcore bands. deathcore is like any other subcategory of metal, for example deathmetal, hardcore, grindcore, and whatever else are all just sub categories of the giant list of metal variations, and saying that deathcore is not a genre, is saying that death metal is not a genre. some real deathcore bands include, veil of maya, born of osiris, suicide silience, all shall perish, carnafex, whitechapel, emmure, despised icon, old through the eyes of the dead, old jfac and many more. the key elements of deathcore style music is death metal vocals and breakdowns. core means breakdown. that is why hardcore bands, grindcore bands, and deathcore bands have breakdowns. in this type of music you have the first word, whether it is death, hard, grind, ska, whatever, that sets the typical basic style of music, and then you add the word core to the end to show that there are break downs, for example ska music with breakdowns .......skacore. so death metal with breakdowns ......deathcore. it does not extend from metalcore but extends from the idea of mixing breakdowns with metal in this case it is being death metal. take cannibal corpse for instance throw in a couple breakdowns and bam you have just created a deathcore band. some bands although not deathcore in general may occasionally through in breakdowns and have death core style songs. Lamb of God for example uses breakdowns in several of their songs,walk with me in hell, blacken the cursed sun, but they are not deathcore because they do not use a breakdown in every song and it is not one of the aspects more attributed to them. now stopping hating this genre of music for being so damn cool and get over yourselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.83.209 (talk • contribs)

not hardcore nor grindcore are metal, there are FEW grindcore breakdowns; and core means influenced by hardcore, not breakdown, also breakdowns aren't just for cores, old school hardcore didn't even used breakdowns; there are deathmetal with breakdowns, and don't make them specifically deathcore. Just because Honor Thy Father used a breakdown won't make it mathcore, it's plain prog metal, ska music WITH hardcore elements = skacore, it may or not got breakdowns. Lamb of God, for example, isn't metalcore, regardless of what ignorant people might think. I don't hate the genere, Job for a Cowboy's first 2 albums are part of my favourites, but these are the facts --Sheish 6 Sheish 00:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Thrash metal has breakdowns. But Anthrax, Sepultura, Kreator, Slayer and co. are STILL Thrash METAL and NOT Thrashcore. By the way, I've noticed that death/metalcore use a lot of clean vocals and eschew the traditional metal riffing style. I'm not sure, but I think that was mentioned in the article. And another thing, after slayer sold out they released God hates us all (pretty stupid album by the way), which sounded a lot like these modern "metalcore" bands, just less melodic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.5.155.191 (talk) 09:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Whoever says that hardcore is a sub-genre of metal is a total moron, and it's people who think like this that have ruined the hardcore genre within the last couple of years. What was once a fiercely passionate and alternative to the mainstream has turned into a huge gimmick that people make fun of cause some kids at ozzfest got exposed to it and turned it into metal-derived garbage. FYI ska does have breakdowns, a lot of music does. A breakdown in music doesn't necessarily have to be chug chug chug chug. A ska breakdown usually involves a skank-down in the pit. Also a lot of deathcore kids have taken fashion that originated in punk and hardcore, overdid it to make it extremely lame, and changed the word "punk" to "scene" basically to make it okay to be a poser. Deathcore = poser to both metal and hardcore!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.173.153.115 (talk) 08:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

so i think i've got a pretty good understanding of the whole progression of music form hardcore. having said that, couldn't the "scene" and "deathcore" be considered a sort of... changing of the times with its roots containing attributes from the hardcore/punk and death metal culture? not to seem condescending (seriously), but you kind of sound like an old timer who is afraid of change... Though i do agree with what you said about hardcore not being a branch off of metal, I wouldn't necessarily say that the addition of metal attributes to hardcore music "ruined" hardcore but rather incorporated it's own style and created an entirely new genre. Hardcore still exists, though it has changed I'll admit. Just look at bands like the Warriors and Hatebreed, or half the bands that are signed to Facedown. And as for the whole bit on fashion, recall the 60's and how the hippies were part of the counter-culture, yet by the 1970's, their dress was completely mainstream. Any time a group of teens try to be different, it winds up becoming mainstream. Just look at the scene now. All these little middle school kids running around in neon colored checkered or zebra striped skinny jeans with their 4X slipknot and twilight shirts, and you KNOW they've never been to a show. Or how they worship The Devil Wears Prada and yet the only song they've heard by them is their cover of Still Fly. Not to mention the fact that Vouge recently published an article on scene fashion (not that i read vouge or anything). It happens to any, for lack of a better word, "clique". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.171.204.123 (talk) 14:05, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

"kind of sound like an old timer who is afraid of change"-what?!? No, really. We have djent now. What is this, 2006?JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 23:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

deathcore is mix of death metal and metalcore with influences from primarly slam death, grind, and hardcore. its vocal style is mix of low growls found in deathmetal and extremely high hardcore screams thought many bands also use occasionally pig squeals which came from goregrind. guitar riffs resembles that of metalcore but is much heavier, technical and deathmetalish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.194.254.21 (talk) 10:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

This article

seems kindof empty if you compare it to the metalcore article is there some info we can gather on Deathcore? And give a better description than

Deathcore is an amalgamation of two musical styles: metalcore and death metal.[

I dont think thats a good intro for a page —Preceding unsigned comment added by A7xTheRev (talk • contribs) 02:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

merger suggestion

I suggest this page be merged with metalcore, as its very short and can easily be placed in that context. Aryder779 (talk) 17:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I oppose that motion. Can I oppose? Is that grounds for getting reported? Deathcore has placed itself among many current musical trends and can fall under the umbrella of several different genres, all the while the metalcore influence is becoming harder to pinpoint. The metalcore article itself could use a nice facelift. Get on that with the quickness. Seethingnuclearchaos (talk) 22:58, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

What is up with you, man? Your opposition is noted. Aryder779 (talk) 23:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

What's up with yourself? Please don't pretend as if this highly unnecessary nomination (Note that this article defeated all past motions for a reason) from someone clearly desperate to serve their own ego rather than the actual quality of these article. SNC is right, try going over to metalcore and actually accomplishing something for a change rather than stirring up rather boring spats of drama because you got called on useless edits and moot additions to grindcore and resorted to whining behind endless invoking of inapplicable wikipedia rules as if that supplants how wrong you are (I'd like to see how you figure there's no etiquette being used in these discussions. Or would you prefer people to kowtow to your fragility "or else"?)

It doesn't. I appreciate your patronage but your faith in yourself is misplaced. Fix up metalcore, then maybe you might have something resembling worth.Karen_Carpentry (talk)

I'm retracting the suggestion, as I suppose this page can stand on its own; though I might work on incorporating some of the sources here into the subsection on the metalcore page. Aryder779 (talk) 17:55, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Good boy.Karen_Carpentry (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC).

Most notable "..."

Stop adding in the critism section stuff like "most notably Job for a Cowboy.". I saw it with Bring Me The Horizon aswell and removed it. STOP IT. If you want to add this, you need a damn good source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.197.38.2 (talk) 20:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. It's extremely POV. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:21, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Better citations please.

Ok, I left this page awhile ago. I nominated it for AfD and when it failed, I helped bring this page up to par. It seems it has gone nowhere since then. FIRST OFF ALL STOP PULLING SHIT OUT OF ARTICLES THAT DOES NOT EXIST!!!! The "criticism" section is a fucking joke to be honest, and I don't even know why it should be there. What other genre has such a section? It is UNNECESSARY. The citations for this section are weak.This what the Despised Icon citation says

Despised Icon are often ascribed the "deathcore" tag by people who, well, are driven by some strange desire to erroneously label metal bands. But Alexandre Erian — who, along with Steve Marois, comprises the Montreal metallers' two-pronged vocal affront — doesn't really give a rat's ass what anyone thinks the band sounds like.

"We've been doing what we do for five years now, and all of a sudden, that word 'deathcore' pops up, and people are calling us deathcore, calling other bands deathcore, and, I mean, I guess it's all right — it's just music," explained Erian, the former drummer for Canadian death-metal outfit Neuraxis. "But we don't want to be associated with this trend. We've been doing this a long time, and we don't feel like we're hopping on any bandwagon at all. And we're probably going to keep playing what we play, even if the trend dies down."

They are not criticizing the whole genre, they are saying they are not deathcore. I know a band is not an expert on their one genre (though I think it should definitely be given weight), but that is not the point. The point is it does nothing to support what appears to be OR. I would like to remove this, but I will give all you guys a shot at making it acceptable. --Wick3dd (talk) 01:23, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I broadly agree with this... the criticism section reads a bit like POV OR; there clearly are a large number of scene elitists that enjoy ridiculing what they perceive as an overly populist musical subgenre, but that's true of pretty much any genre. If there's some genuine, documented controversy over the use of the term, then maybe a couple of sourced sentences could be devoted to that, but at the moment the section seems like a rather strange addition to the article... it's not something we have in articles on other musical genres. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 10:23, 11 November 2008

(UTC)

Is grindcore a stylistic origin?

"It's rare that a band actually describe themselves as 'deathcore' instead of going 'we combine death metal, grindcore and hardcore into the HEAVIEST THING EVER'." - James Hoare, "Xisforeyes," Terrorizer #180, Feb. 2009, p. 15.

No. Unless the more technical of these bands grew up listening to Discordance Axis or something there's no observable way they've been influenced at all.Karen_Carpentry (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added on 05:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC).

Melodic metalcore

There appears to be a certain amount of genre-warring going on. This is unfortunate at the best of times, but on this occasion, sources are in place. Before anyone replaces "metalcore" with "melodic metalcore", could they please find a source stating this. Cheers. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:06, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd also like to say, for the record, the only references in the lead that are really reliable are Decibel (definitely) and Allmusic (this is apparently a issue of undecided consensus). But I'm yet to see a reference of any sort that states, explicitly, that "melodic metalcore is a genre that does X". Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Pioneering band(s)?

The history section of this article does an okay job of describing deathcore's origins, but can someone please specify to me the first band(s) to play in this style that weren't also (a) technical death metal, grindcore, or deathgrind band(s), or, if they were, those that were clearly (a) deathcore band(s)? I suppose, what I'm looking for is a sentence that states, simply, "Deathcore was pioneered by the band(s) X, Y, and Z." 71.218.219.175 (talk) 15:21, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

There are a lot of early deathcore bands shown in this video.--62.192.231.216 (talk) 02:28, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Deathcore: Death metal and hardcore punk

Shouldn't hardcore punk be included as one of the styles fused? Several references already in this article say its combination of death metal and hardcore, and one explicitly specifies this as hardcore punk.--3family6 (talk) 21:04, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, my addition has been challenged, so I will give specific sources that state deathcore is death metal merged with metalcore and/or hardcore (I only made the addition in the first place because of sources already in the article). Right now, I have only listed sources discussing deathcore as a hardcore fusion. There are plenty of sources for it also being a metalcore fusion, and I can list some of those if requested.

First off, sources in the article (which are currently being used to source deathcore as a metalcore fusion!):

• Metal Injection - "They're all textbook "deathcore," fusing death metal and hardcore punk." (I'm not sure whether this ref is reliable, but it is in the article.)
• LambGoat.com - "This is deathcore. This is what happens when death metal and hardcore, along with healthy doses of other heavy music styles, are so smoothly blended into the technical and intense combination that deathcore deserves to be." (Again, not sure about the reliability of ref, but is in the article.)
• MetalEater.com - "What is 'Deathcore' you ask? Well, in today's age of more sullen-faced 'cores' than you can shake a walletchain at, 'Deathcore' is apparently a mixture of Death Metal, Hardcore, and Grind, all mixed 'n mashed together to create a brutal and extreme 'new' hybrid of sonic mayhem aimed at reaching greater extremities than the sum of its parts." (And once more... I think this article might need some better sources.)

Okay, now for some more reliable sources:

• About.com - "...the deathcore subgenre isn’t without a few bands that actually matter. One such band is Despised Icon, an act that bridges brutal American-styled death metal with metallic Hatebreed-esque hardcore, unlike “death core” bands that merely fuse commercialized metalcore with pseudo death metal and token growling vocals." (So this ref is saying that most deathcore is metalcore, but some rare bands are hardcore.)
• About.com - "[in reference to Bring Me the Horizon]:This British band fuses death metal and hardcore into a conglomeration that’s been referred to as deathcore."
• AllMusic - "...death metal fused with hardcore; a hybrid style often referred to as death-core."
• AllMusic - "A throwaway cinematic intro leads to a barrage of blastbeats, serviceable death metal riffs, and hardcore punk breakdowns -- an amalgamation now commonly called 'deathcore.'" (not the best, in this case just referring to the drum and guitar techniques and the time signatures.)
• AllMusic - "Deathcore has often been described as a combination of death metal and hardcore, and Burning Skies' extreme, over-the-top vocals owe something to death metal's guttural, deep, demonic-sounding growls as well as metalcore's abrasive, harsh screaming. Arguably, deathcore is part of the European branch of metalcore, and while Burning Skies is not a carbon copy of American metalcore bands, one of their influences (perhaps indirectly rather than directly) is Hatebreed (one of the best and most influential metalcore crews in the United States)." (This one I think is very informative, and explains how deathcore is both hardcore and metalcore mixed with death metal.)--3family6 (talk) 14:08, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

My only concern is that only one of the sources explicitly says hardcore punk. These days, the term hardcore(on its own) tends to be attached to any music that is remotely heavy that isn't blatantly metal.Inhumer (talk) 22:42, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

The first ref about Despised Icon and the last ref about Burning Skies both specify. Also, while you are correct that hardcore is now a catch-all term (which is actually what it was originally too), reading that into references is original research.--3family6 (talk) 00:35, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Some of this is really stretching it...

I really fail to see why some of these bands deserve mention on this page. Repulsion is absolutely a prototypical 80s grindcore band, so is Unseen Terror. While it's certainly a coincidence that Unseen Terror, Abscess, and Blood may have used the term "deathcore" at some point in time, it really doesn't seem relevant to the "history of deathcore." Five or 10 minutes on youtube should confirm that those bands sound just about nothing like Bring Me the Horizon for all intents and purposes. Does anyone have a problem with me removing the references to these bands from this entry (Repulsion, Abscess. Blood, Unseen Terror)? It seems like these were thrown in the article semantically just to give deathcore more "genre-cred." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vargas Larson (talk • contribs) 22:32, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead. Most if not all of that section is WP:SYNTH.--3family6 (talk) 01:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Not sounding like Bring Me the Horizon is hardly a good litmus test for whether or not a band could be described as deathcore or an ancestor of the genre. Motörhead and Misfits don't sound anything like the average modern metalcore band but are ancestors of the genre per being some of the first to bridge the gap between heavy metal and hardcore punk, and also per the fact that many of the early seminal metalcore bands were following in their footsteps. 76.246.254.69 (talk) 01:40, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely right about BMH. The only reason I agreed with the above editor is because the objections raised were on content that was WP:SYNTH.--3family6 (talk) 01:43, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Repulsion, along with bands such as Terrorizer, Napalm Death etc. is a prototypical DEATHgrind band, which technically counts as deathcore. Grindcore is, believe it or not, devoid of any direct metal influence. --94.254.36.110 (talk) 20:17, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

"Motörhead...don't sound anything like the average modern metalcore band but are ancestors of the genre per being some of the first to bridge the gap between heavy metal and hardcore punk" -an amazing feat really for Motorhead, bearing in mind they formed in 1975 and Punk didn't really consolidate as a genre until about 1976 (tho' it certainly existed prior to '76.) and hardcore punk was truly the proverbial twinkle in Johnny Rotten's eye in 1975. But, that aside, I get what you mean. HOWEVER one would differentiate between hardcore genres that incorporate lots of metal influence (metalcore, crossover thrash, deathgrind; and the other more-metal influenced grindcore sub-subgenres, crust punk, thrashcore et cetera) and those that are metal subgenres, but are influenced by hardcore punk. (thrash metal, groove metal and sludge metal)i.e. the other way around. Deathcore clearly belongs in the first group.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 20:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

'Extreme metal'...er; I think not.

After attempting, several times to edit this page, I've had several reverts by people (who clearly know nothing about extreme metal) accusing me of being 'pissed off that scene kids call this music metal; when it is metal' (it isn't, and I'm not.) and 'sensationalist'; when all I did was point out that NONE of the sources desrcibe deathcore as anything else thatn a 'fusion' between metal and hardcore: which doesn't make it 'metal' any more than it's 'hardcore'. It's neither. It's deathcore. Hence, I reverted the words 'extreme metal subgenre' to 'fusion genre', per the sources and NOT because of opinion or what-not.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 10:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Nice job. I was wondering how "extreme metal subgenre" got in there.--¿3family6 _contribs 00:40, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

JWULTRABLIZZARD, I think both you and Gunmetal Angel should come a much more appropriate approach to dispute. I agree that both of you have a different style of editing, and he may agree/disagree with some of your edits, but according to Wikipedia policy, one must cite appropriate sources, because if one doesn't, you are in danger of violating Wikipedia's policy of verifiability. Furthermore, you have reverted numerous times the edits he's made, and so he has done to yours - you are technically in danger of edit warring. Abhijay ^Talk?/_Deeds 03:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

'Abhijay'; with all due respect there are several verified sources that state quite clearly that metalcore is not a subgenre of heavy metal. That; and there are quite a few more than those that say that it is. I have been utterly civil and polite to user:Gunmetalangel in this respect. None of what I have put on his talk page nor on the metalcore or deathcore wikipedia page is not backed up by verified sources, nor is any of it original research or fanciful interpretation of sources.

This interview; with the pioneering metalcore band Shai Hudad; from the website punknews.org, states:

"These bands that were heavier than the average hardcore bands. These bands that were more progressive than the average hardcore band. My friends and I would always refer to them as 'metalcore' because it wasn’t purely hardcore and it wasn’t purely metal".-that sounds pretty clear to me that it isn't a subgenre of heavy metal, nor is it a subgenre of hardcore.

Note this source is one of the referenced sources on the metalcore wikipedia page. It's there in black and white for anyone to see.

The interview goes on to state: "It was like a heavier hardcore band with hardcore ethics and attitude but clearly a metal influence"-which shows that metalcore is firmly rooted in the hardcore punk genre that it came from, and the metal element is an influence, but does not make up the primary elements of the music. Hence, it is not a subgenre of heavy metal.

and as regards deathcore:

Bands like Earth Crisis, Hatebreed, Converge, Shai Hulad, Integrity etc. were hardcore punk bands that incorporated elements from various heavy metal subgenres to create a new subgenre (or genre). They weren't metal bands incorporating elements from hardcore punk, as can be seen above. So clearly, metalcore is thus a derivative of hardcore punk and NOT a subgenre of heavy metal.

oh; as regards deathcore:

lambgoat.com: "This is deathcore. This is what happens when death metal and hardcore, along with healthy doses of other heavy music styles, are so smoothly blended..." -yup, it just says death metal and hardcore are 'blended' -so you could just as much conclude from that description that deathcore is a derivative/subgenre of hardcore as much as you could say it was a derivitive/subgenre of heavy metal.

-a review of a All Shall Perish, Alienacja, Despised Icon, and Whitechapel in Knoxville, Tennesee by Cosmo Lee on metalinjection.net: "They're all textbook 'deathcore', fusing death metal and hardcore punk." -again; it just says deathcore is 'fusing' death metal and hardcore punk; not that it is a metal subgenre.

Ed Rivadavia, on allmusic.com regarding Heaven Shall Burn:

"Munich, Germany's Heaven Shall Burn specialize in highly controversial and politicized death metal fused with hardcore; a hybrid style often referred to as death-core." -again; that says exactly the same.

Alex Henderson on allmusic.com: "What is deathcore? ...it's essentially metalcore... Drawing on both death metal and hardcore..." -again, where does that say deathcore is a metal subgenre?

-so, the sources saying that metalcore (or deathcore for that matter) is a subgenre of heavy metal are few, and those that say it is either a fusion of hardcore punk and (various forms of) heavy metal ; OR a derivitive of hardcore punk that takes influence from various metal subgenres, outnumber them by quite a wide margin.

ALL of these sources are cited as references on both the metalcore and deathcore wikipedia pages. I am citing verified, referenced sources that wikipedia itself has accepted and uses that state that metalcore; and by extension, its derivitive deathcore, are not subgenres of heavy metal; but are types of music influenced by heavy metal, but are not structually and musically by definition heavy metal, and thus it is erroneous to use the term 'subgenre of heavy metal' to describe either. The number of sources I have cited outnumbers user:GunMetalAngel's by a ratio higher than two to one as well.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 15:33, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I can understand you were using the sourced content, but simply writing Deathcore is a fusion genre, sounds rather vague and is not encyclopedia standard. Note that language that is encyclopedia standard needs to be based upon language that is kept formal and is presented in a format that is understandable. By writing Deathcore is a fusion genre, editors or the public might get confused as they will think of it as a poor introduction that does not inform them well about their subject of interest. What you did with the sources was correct; you used the reliable sources where necessary, but your style of presenting it on the Article page was vague. Note that by simply reverting what Gunmetal did with your edits by putting it back to his own copy you are simply putting yourself into danger of violating the WP:WAR rule of 3RR. If there isn't an agreeable solution between the both of you, why not seek expert attention from a user who is more into the subject of Rock music; he/she may give you some tips, come to Gunmetal about it and discuss it. As wikipedians, we can understand that we are going to meet people who are rather difficult to work with; in your case Gunmetal because he disagreed with your edit, but that does not mean you edit war. Just take this simple advice: If dispute resolution is not working out between you two, consider expert attention. Do not go and report it to WP:ANI because it will only complicate things further (unless you feel it is seriously going out of hand). Abhijay ^Talk?/_Deeds 17:01, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

This is true; although any musical 'fusion' is a 'fusion genre'-however; that isn't the point. I put 'fusion genre' because there was a conflict; as seen on the 'Heavy metal subgenres' talk page; regarding whether metalcore, as well as deathcore, crust punk, and grindcore are subgenres of heavy metal or not. My response was that; while they are all influenced by various subgenres of heavy metal to varying degrees, they are nonetheless essentially derivitives of punk rock and hardcore punk; hence the terms metallic hardcore, metalcore, deathcore, grindcore, crust punk,and so on, and not '___ metal', and yes, I did provide sources. However, others disagreed, so we came to the compromise that those genres would be listed under 'fusion genres' to highlight the fact that whilst not being types of heavy metal per se; they are influenced to various degrees by various subgenres of heavy metal; and thus need to be mentioned on a page detailing the metal subgenres.

I'm absolutely willing to come to some kind of consensus with user:GunMetal Angel that is acceptable to both of us and the other editors of the pages. However I get the feeling he wouldn't be willing to come to a consensus with myself; in light of the quite unreasonable responses he's given on both my own and his respective talk pages; he has ignored the fact I have cited referenced sources that have even been used on the metalcore and deathcore wikipedia pages. He simply said it was all 'original research' (when it plainly wasn't) and was 'my interpretation'-which is odd given that at least two sources clearly state that metalcore is a derivitive of hardcore; albeit influenced by metal-that's can't be 'misinterpreted in any way' -and that it was all 'point of view'-which it isn't; I'm using sources. -that; and his complete unwillingness to tolerate any opinion that differs from his own blinkered view.

As for finding a user "more into the subject of Rock music"- I don't really see how myself-or any of the other editors of these pages-are not very 'into the subject of Rock music' -specifically the hydra-headed beast that is heavy metal -I've been playing and listening to both metal and punk and various types of music for many years

With the greatest of respect :)JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 19:00, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Request to merge List of deathcore bands into Deathcore

This has been put forth by editors of the talk page of List of deathcore bands, I'm for it personally. Jonjonjohny (talk) 22:27, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I would like to agree not sure if i can as was my suggestion originally Syxxpackid420 (talk) 01:28, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. There are far too many entries in the list of deathcore bands for them all to be incorporated into the article without simply moving the list itself into the article. Considering the relatively high number of notable deathcore bands included in the list, I think the article List of deathcore bands is appropriate. --♪ ChrisBkoolio ... (Talk) 05:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Never mind. After looking at the articles Avant-garde metal and Technical death metal as precedents, I think the list could be incorporated easily. I do, however, suggest that the list be made into two or more columns, to reduce some of the space it would take up in the article. --♪ ChrisBkoolio ... (Talk) 05:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

That's exactly what I was thinking, I'll do it myself when there is an agreement. Jonjonjohny (talk) 08:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with this.--¿3family6 _contribs 13:47, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution

I urge Blackmetalbaz to stop edit warring agains the IP address and discuss the disputed edits in a more civil manner. Abhijay (☎ Talk) (✐ Deeds) 06:40, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Point towards WP:3RR infraction or retract. 00:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Question regarding why In Dying Arms does not have a page and also a source for adding them on here

im new to editing this site so can someone tell me why the band In Dying Arms does not have an article or have their own additon on this page? here is the source i have for them that calls the band deathcore http://www.barebonesmusic.com/barebonesmusic/news/Entries/2010/9/26_Interview_with_IN_DYING_ARMS.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.225.129.225 (talk) 13:34, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know why the band doesn't have an article. Either there aren't enough reliable sources for it, or it simply hasn't been created yet. I'm afraid that above source doesn't pass as a reliable source, but there may be others that do. If you are wondering what type of source is reliable, check the album reliable sources list to get an idea of what to look for.--¿3family6 _contribs 20:00, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

And by looking at the log for the page located at In Dying Arms, it appears that no one has attempted to create the article yet either. Maybe it's because they're signed to Matchless Records, a record label owned by the former Chelsea Grin guitarist, Chris Kilbourne and isn't a big enough distributor to make the band notable yet. • GunMetal Angel

22:39, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Hardcore punk breakdowns

I made this point on the metalcore article aswell but what is a hardcore punk breakdown. I have never heard anything in a hard core punk song resembling the breakdowns in metalcore or anything i would really call a breakdown. The term keeps coming up in a lot of articles but just because it can be backed up by a music magazine saying metalcore is a fusion of punk and metal or deathcore is a fusion of punkand death metal doesn't make it true cause it's not backed up by any music. If anyone can name a song by a hardcore punk band with those elements in it before these kind of breakdowns started appearin in metalcore then this will make more sense to me but I can't find one. No its the gang chanting they're referring to not the breakdowns — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.126.230.212 (talk) 12:19, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Bad Brains, "I Against I" Influenced by metal and ska, one of the first examples ot a breakdown.--¿3family6 _contribs 21:17, 31 December 2012 (UTC)