Talk:Deaths in October 2020

Cookie Monsta

Would he qualify for a notable entry, or no? MikaelaArsenault (talk) 18:47, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

 Added with Billboard source. Wyliepedia @ 18:51, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for doing that. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 18:52, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome. Wyliepedia @ 19:00, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

The entry for Cookie Monsta currently links to a redirect. Is it best to leave it as such or to add a disambiguator to turn it into a redlink? As with all entries, it needs to link somewhere for the 30-day grace period.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:11, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Following up on my own question, Cookie Monsta is indeed mentioned on the redirect page Circus Records, so I don't see any need to add a disambiguator. If at the end of the 30 days we have a Cookie Monsta article, it can stay. If it remains a redirect at that time, it goes. Business as usual?-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:14, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

The only necessary disambiguation is at Cookie Monster (disambiguation). Cookie Monsta is Tony Cook's professional name and his alone. Wyliepedia @ 21:47, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I understand that. The reason I asked whether it needed to be turned into a red link is that JalenFolf removed the link twice ([1] [2]) with the explanation that "Removing link(s) to "Cookie Monsta": Created as redirect with no info at target". I don't see why we can't keep the entry with the redirect link, so I started a discussion here in case I'm missing something obvious. -- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:56, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Correct, redirect links stay here for 30 days after inclusion. CM will remain here till 2 November, if he remains a redirect; October deaths will move to Deaths in October 2020 on 7 November. Sidenote: before his page was created, he was mentioned in six or so other articles, as well as having sufficient news coverage, which is why I added him here. Wyliepedia @ 22:02, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I did not see the link requirement. Thank you for informing me. I will leave this alone for now, and will not be opposed to removal if there isn't enough coverage for his own article. Jalen Folf (talk) 22:05, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Haji Hussain Ansari

"His Covid report test report returned negative on Friday night and he was shifted to general ICU on Saturday. He was, however, put on a ventilator again after he complained of breathlessness and he suffered a cardiac arrest at 3.40pm"

"He had recovered from the infection, and his death is attributed to comorbidities, not to coronavirus. His lungs were infected, which led to breathlessness"[3]

Are we really going to pretend covid had nothing to do with his death? He testes positive for covid, spent weeks in ICU, tested negative and immediately afterwards, while still in hospital, he suffered from breathlessness, had to be put on a ventilator with "infected lungs" and then his heart stopped beating... --2.36.88.232 (talk) 12:05, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Obviously a COVID victim. But if hospital says he did not die of COVID we can only keep cardiac arrest as COD, though that's one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. --Folengo (talk) 16:53, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

The institutional reaction from hospitals is always to "keep them off the figures", so they'll argue out of a paper bag that COVID wasn't COVID in every case they can. We're talking administrators upwards, not the good people on the frontline. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:13, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

William "Bill" Bernstein

Can he be added to October 8th? [4] [5] MikaelaArsenault (talk) 23:24, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

He does not have an article,so I will not be adding him. WWGB (talk) 23:38, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done. Ref ^(chew)(do) 06:27, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for adding him. Even though he doesn’t have an article, I still thought that it would be important to add him because he was a notable person. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 10:16, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

As the only one of five founders of Orion Pictures not to have an article about him, it was important he got his 30 days in the sun. And if there is no article written about him after that time, at least he's now got a redirect towards his founder firm. Ref ^(chew)(do) 17:17, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Carmen Sevilla

I'm confused about this. These articles are saying that she passed away: [6] [7] [8] [9] However, these say that she is alive: [10] [11] [12] MikaelaArsenault (talk) 18:45, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Then, in time-honoured fashion, we do nothing straight away - we do not add her until there is some kind of consensus in the media towards its truth. Hold fire. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:52, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@MikaelaArsenault: @Refsworldlee: The nu.nl link mentioned above has retracted the story. "Carmen Sevillas zoon Augusto ontkent dat zijn moeder is overleden." (translation: "Carmen Sevilla's son Augusto denies that his mother has passed away." KittenKlub (talk) 21:40, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you ::@KittenKlub:. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 21:44, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

@KittenKlub: Thank you - as I suspected. And that's why we hold fire on suspicious disparities in sources. Ref ^(chew)(do) 22:40, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Unsourced entries

@Amigao: I trust you're going to be providing new citations for all the deceased who's sources you have removed on various months? They can't be left unsourced. Rusted AutoParts 22:55, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

This would be more usefully posted on the editor's talk page - it's not relevant to any of the entries attached to the article for which this is the talk page. Ref ^(chew)(do) 23:02, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

It can be applicable here. In the event Amigao doesn’t then others can know there’s unsourced entries across the Deaths pages. Rusted AutoParts 23:27, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Anyway, I fixed 2019/2020 unsourcing, though I don't patrol pages further than two years back. Ref ^(chew)(do) 06:48, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Joyce Dinkins

Should she be worthy of being added to the list?[13] MikaelaArsenault (talk) 21:39, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

She is already a redirect to her much more notable husband, so thought has already been given on her personal notability and been passed on once. Notability by association is a no-no - to qualify herself, she would have needed to be "famous for" things other than her marriage to David and her position as a "First Lady". I'd go with "no" personally. Ref ^(chew)(do) 22:44, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Mikaela, I do believe that my learned editing colleague above is correct. Familial connections to notability simply do not work on Wiki. Any individual needs to present a nod towards notability in their own right, irrespective of whom they may be 'related' to. Two points I would make - firstly, it was a reasonable, sensible query; and secondly, I know as much about American 'politics' as I do about Mongolian yak rearing. Some other editor may see things differently. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 23:35, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I would also say "no" to her inclusion here. Most sources only have two small paragraphs about her, and the first centered around her husband. The second one was her being on some non-notable NYC board, unlike Roberta McCain. Wyliepedia @ 23:38, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

WP:POLOUTCOMES may be of interest here, where [t]he spouse of the head of state or government is usually regarded as notable. I've seen standalone articles on second ladies, as well, but extending notability further to spouses of municipal leaders is not yet consensus. They, like other relatives of politicians, get articles via fulfillment of WP:GNG, which applies to all articles on the project. This discussion did point me toward sources for Daniel L. Burrows, Dinkins's notable father, which I consider a positive development, so thank you! Vycl1994 (talk) 04:24, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Ezra Schabas

Should he be changed to American born-Canadian educator and author, or should it just be left the way it is, which is Canadian? MikaelaArsenault (talk) 09:06, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I updated. Should be American-Canadian because it looked like he moved to Toronto for his wife. No indication he ever renounced his US citizenship afforded to him by birth and service.SunnyDoo, 17:59, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Veaceslav Semionov

Demonym is Moldovan, not Moldavian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.173.231 (talk) 21:09, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

It's an interesting but complex point that you raise. As I read it, he was born Moldavian but died Moldovan, because of the political and/or historical quirks of that region. Editrite! (talk) 22:16, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I can't find anything which says he was ever Moldovan. He certainly and exclusively worked in Moldovan football, which does not exclude Moldavians from working there. Probably needs more research but for now would stay as his article reports it. Ref ^(chew)(do) 23:03, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 October 2020

Please change P. Vetrivel's cause of death to "septic shock" and give his age as 60, both per the current citation. 142.51.204.154 (talk) 12:27, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, septic shock as he was casually on life support for COVID. Really believable.--79.24.121.244 (talk) 12:50, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

The story says so, quoting the hospital. Why would either lie? COVID doesn't PREVENT any fatal illness, even if you're symptomatic with it. 142.51.204.154 (talk) 13:52, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Nothing in his Wikipedia article says he died of COVID either, so it's more unbelievable that this page would, I think. 142.51.204.154 (talk) 14:00, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

 No action - nothing is clear, leave it for now. Ref ^(chew)(do) 16:09, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

"He was 60. Vitrevel died due to septic shock, hospital said in a bulletin." Nothing can be clearer. If you won't reflect the reported cause, can you please remove "COVID-19" for NOT being a reported cause? 142.51.204.154 (talk) 16:38, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

This article about his hospitalization stresses he was in a critical condition after being diagnosed with COVID... --79.24.121.244 (talk) 19:15, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

With deaths from COVID-19, you are getting several kinds of specific causes (such as septic shock, admittedly), but the grandaddy killer in general is still COVID-19, no matter how you want to phrase it. I will not be removing what is plainly the root cause. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:45, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Whatever. I thought Wikipedia was based on sources, and this one gives ONE cause and ONE age. But if you feel you know better than the man's hospital, by all means, diagnose it like you see it. 142.51.204.154 (talk) 21:40, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm not doctoring, and this conversation is bordering on the uncivil, so it's closed for me. Ref ^(chew)(do) 03:27, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done Very clear in the source, but went with "septic shock following COVID-19" as a compromise. Might be causative, maybe just contributory. Either way, it's definitely mentioned. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:42, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I'd say your use of the words "might be" mean nothing should have been changed. Speculation on your part. Ref ^(chew)(do) 17:57, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

No, if nothing changed, we'd be saying COVID did cause the sepsis which caused the shock that caused the death. But without mentioning that he died of sepsis at all. This way, it's up to the reader to choose between either possibility and learn the verifiably immediate killer. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:17, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Abdoullakh Abouyezidovich Anzorov

Why change to militant? Wercikkuro (talk) 22:45, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

More to the point, why is he listed at all, when the murder of Samuel Paty is already listed under Paty, and is the same article anyway. Editrite! (talk) 23:03, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Wercikkuro I have no idea - it's an idiot buzzword. What else would you go for?

Editrite! Well, basically he is a separate person from Samuel Paty who was involved in the same incident, and the infamous are usually given their 30 day shot at being recognized with an article the same as any other. Ref ^(chew)(do) 13:27, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, a terrorist. What he did was a textbook definition of terrorism, a terroristic attack is what all major media call the incident, but suddenly the guy's description was changed to an 'Islamic militant'. I understand the necessity for being ok with all the beliefs, including religious ones, but this is a bit too much. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and beheads people for teaching stuff that it doesn't believe in and finds offensive instead of taking it to court like a duck, it's not a flat-billed waterfowl, it's a terrorist duck. Wercikkuro (talk) 13:56, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

How very judgemental of you. Good job you're not picking the entries then, because the rest of us Wikipedia editors work from a neutral stance. Reporters all, and not judge and jury. Ref ^(chew)(do) 17:22, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is source-based and thus it does not make anyone here an actual reporter. Sources call this incident a terrorist attack, what can I say more? I am judgemental, yes. But picking a "neutral ground" between throwing a rock at someone and not throwing a rock at someone and just saying 'the guy who throws rocks at people doesn't really do that' is not being neutral (or being a reporter). Wercikkuro (talk) 20:14, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Judgementalists stick in a point of view away from neutral ground - they have to do that in order to judge. Working from neutral ground and not carrying out original research makes us editors little more than reporters of the facts as laid out in available sources. Deciding who is or is not eligible for a place in these Deaths pages treads a fine line (some redlink entries are plain wrong), but Anzorov's inclusion is based on his involvement in the event article to which Paty also belongs. Don't worry, I have full faith in Anzorov disappearing from the page in 30 days time due to being a redirect. His inclusion for 30 days however is a no-brainer on this occasion. Ref ^(chew)(do) 23:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

@Ref . . . while I understand what you're saying, there are two points that should be made. Firstly, we don't normally list or redirect to the same event twice (especially if there are only two participants), and more importantly, we only redirect to the person that the event is named after! Editrite! (talk) 23:53, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

There were two deaths involved in that event article. Someone at some point has created a redirect from Anzorov to the event article, just as someone created the redirect from Paty himself to his event article. That's a naturalistic linkthrough rather than a contrived piping. More to the point, two people died who theoretically might have two articles written about them individually in the future. Perhaps you know some way of combining two people into one entry, because I don't. Ref ^(chew)(do) 03:16, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

I suggest that you have a look at the end of Christmas day, 2016. Different event but similar principle. Editrite! (talk) 00:50, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Tony Lewis

[14] This article says that he died "suddenly and unexpectedly" on Monday near London, according to a statement from publicist Bari Lieberman. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 17:06, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Neither "suddenly and unexpectedly" nor "near London" are causes of death, or therefore relevant to what we put into these pages. You need to be pointing this out on his article talk page if it's missing there. Ref ^(chew)(do) 17:55, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I meant to say that he died suddenly and unexpectedly on October 19th, not on October 20th. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 18:31, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done Most sources say 19. Only spin had the wrong date. KittenKlub (talk) 18:58, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Some sources say 20 though. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 19:02, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Spin had the wrong day, however Billboard, USA Today, TMZ all had 19. And Billboard and USA Today are better sources than Spin. KittenKlub (talk) 19:10, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I see what you both mean now. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:20, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Peter F. Secchia

[15] Can COVID-19 please be added as his cause of death? Secchia died at home Wednesday morning, surrounded by his family, a spokesperson for the family said. The spokesperson said that while he had been dealing with health problems for several months, he recently contracted COVID-19. He was receiving treatment at his home. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 19:00, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

More to the point, "recently contracted COVID-19, which was a contributing factor in his death" - and someone has already done that for you anyway. Ref ^(chew)(do) 23:05, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

The second half of your quote isn't in the source. I don't know where it's from. But if COVID was a contributing factor, that means it wasn't the cause of death. The idea that someone deathly sick with a contagious airborne disease would die at home surrounded by family in the US is also quite contrary to the usual scenario, involving isolation, hospital and a ventilator. To ignore months-long health problems in favour of an infection not said to cause him any symptoms is definitely speculatory and arguably insane. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:19, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

I see that quote came from the inline source, which is better than invented, but in no way makes a contributing factor a cause of death. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:27, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

For all we know, his condition may have deteriorated so fast that he died at home before it was possible to move him to a hospital. And covid may have been discovered to be the cause after his death. All articles on his death state that he died after contracting covid. Removing this because "if he had covid he should have been in hospital" as if it wasn't explicitly stated that he had covid, this sounds speculatory and arguably insane. --Pesqara (talk) 11:30, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Don't twist my words. I was clear in my edit summary and here that the reason for removal was that by being a "contributing factor", it can't logically be the "cause of death". The fact that he was surrounded by family rather than hospitalized is just red flag gravy. If we're accepting other significant conditions and things people died "after contracting", we would've put George Floyd, Ike Turner, Scott Weiland, Bobbi Kristina Brown and Paul Gray down as heart disease victims (among other things). We still can, if you want. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:58, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

It seems that the one twisting words here is you. The people you mention all have a pretty evident and well-known cause of death: being half-choked by the police, a cocaine overdose, multiple drug overdose, etc. For Secchia, it is just said that he had health problems and then caught covid and died. If anything, arbitrarily excluding covid because of a questionabl interpretation of a single line in an article and blaming Secchia's death on his previous health problems would be like blaming the deaths of Floyd, Turner, etc. on heart disease. --Pesqara (talk) 12:54, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

These people had known causes of death and reported contributing factors, so we list their causes of death, leaving manners, contributing factors, locations, times and other circumstances to their articles' Death sections. Secchia had a known contributing factor, but no known cause of death, so we omit his cause of death. The instructions atop the page only say to add a cause of death if known, say nothing about contributing factors, evident or otherwise. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:06, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

If that is not twisting words... --Pesqara (talk) 13:53, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

It's not. And I didn't blame any other health problems (previous or contemporary). I just left the CoD blank, because it's unknown. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:28, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Naini Narshimha Reddy

The article linked mentions that the lung infection and damage was the result of covid ("post-covid complications"). I would say that covid should be mentioned as cause of death.--2.36.89.158 (talk) 21:20, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done - the source in use clearly says "Mr. Reddy had tested positive for COVID-19 on September 28 but it turned out negative in subsequent test." Ref ^(chew)(do) 23:00, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Like other covid victims. He wasn't a false positive - he tested positive, the virus caused fatal damage to his lungs, then 'left' but the damage was left and caused his death. He tested positive on 28 September, was hospitalized, and only tested negative on 9 October. His wife, eldest son and son-in-law also tested positive. See here Also here - "Few days ago his condition deteriorated with a lung infection and post COVID complications according to the statement from Apollo Hospitals." The hospital itself states that these complications were the result of covid. --2.36.89.158 (talk) 07:08, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

(Re: message on my talk page - as you can see, your post here DID show up.)

I absolutely do not accept the phrase "like other COVID victims", for one thing. That is a total generalisation. The first source you quote is a report while he was still alive six days ago, so is not remotely obituary in nature and is time-expired as far as counting it towards his entry here is concerned. Overall I'm not happy with the veracity of some of the media reporting and the conflicting nature of their versions of events. Therefore I'm leaving this particular entry well alone. Hopefully another editor will step in and give us a fresh insight into what they think is going on in the confusion. Ref ^(chew)(do) 11:56, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

It seems to me that all articles about his death are pretty clear that it was due to post-covid complications. --Pesqara (talk) 12:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Do any say so? If so, no harm in using one to verify the claim. If it only seems pretty clear to you, forget it for Wikipedia, that's OR. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:39, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Linked article mentions no lung infection, as a cause, contributing factor or even in passing, removed. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

The very article that is linked to his name in this page states: "He was 86 and admitted to hospital a week ago for post COVID complications with extensive lung damage, a statement of Apollo Hospitals said." The hospital explicitly said that. How did he have post-covid complications if he did not have covid? --Pesqara (talk) 13:50, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Being admitted to a hospital for something and dying from it are not the same thing. Says he died while undergoing treatment. That's closer than last week, if you must assume anything. And yeah, he had COVID. Then he recovered. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:58, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Not a single source states that he recovered. Now, here's a Hindustan Times article stating: "Veteran trade union leader and the first home minister of Telangana, Nayini Narasimha Reddy, succumbed to post-Covid-19 complications at Apollo Hospitals in Hyderabad in the wee hours of Thursday." Is that good enough for you, or are you going to look for a way to twist this a well? --Pesqara (talk) 14:06, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

That's good enough for me, because succumbing to means dying from. Not rocket science. Assume good faith. But the story linked within our linked story certainly says he "fully recovered". And "post-" suggests as much. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:12, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Louise Renaud

[16] This link says that she died on October 21st. However, a Facebook post says that she died on October 19th. [17] MikaelaArsenault (talk) 09:04, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Facebook? Really? You have countered your own argument by quoting social media, which carries no weight at all here. Ref ^(chew)(do) 13:17, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

The SRC also cites CIAC's Facebook in its opening paragraph. So if its argument is likewise self-countered, both dates are as dubious. Pick one? InedibleHulk (talk) 13:28, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

I saw two different sources that said two different dates and was confused about them. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 17:02, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

I'd go with lundi (October 19). If the SRC (as respected an outlet as the CBC up here, just French) trusts the head of the CIAC (of whom and which most Canadians haven't heard) enough to confirm the death itself, it probably would trust any corrections or clarification proferred by the same, whether by telephone, Facebook or registered carrier elk. A great reporter is only as credible as his or her sources. But since I can't paste and you can't edit, we must wait for help. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:25, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

There's a La Presse story out there that goes with "lundi", which whoever helps us might (rightly) rather than a primary source via a dystopian tech giant. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:34, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

I can edit and I can paste. I also found an English source which confirms death on the 19th, so I've introduced that and moved her. Ref ^(chew)(do) 02:44, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Now that's teamwork! I should warn you, though, that is not CBS News, merely News CBS. But for this claim, we can trust it, thanks. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:16, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Vladimir Gusev error

The link is to a different Vladimir Gusev? Wrong person? Jtbagwelljr (talk) 20:10, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks - I have disambiguated as best I can with little information on this older ice hockey player possessing the same name. Ref ^(chew)(do) 22:44, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

I changed it to Vladimir Gusev (ice hockey, born 1939), which is a standard ice hockey/sports disambiguation, based on the age given. Wyliepedia @ 00:06, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Good change.Jtbagwelljr (talk) 02:45, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

The key was to find out his birth year, which you achieved through the Russian Wikipedia. Good research. Ref ^(chew)(do) 12:08, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Billy Joe Shaver

[18] That says Texas singer-songwriter Billy Joe Shaver, who rose to prominence amid the outlaw country uprising in the early 1970s, died Wednesday morning in a Waco hospital after suffering a massive stroke the day before. He was 81. Should this be changed to complications from a stroke? MikaelaArsenault (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

"Complications" usually require a period of time of some kind to develop. This all happened within about 24 hours, so I'd say the cause was pretty direct to a stroke, personally. Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:39, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Cecilia Chiang

This article says that she died this week at 100. [19] This says that her exact age is unknown. [20] These articles says that she died at 100 on Wednesday: [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] However, these say that she died at age 98, 101, don’t have a date, and that she died on either Tuesday or Wednesday. [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] MikaelaArsenault (talk) 22:13, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Mikaela. You can't keep doing this. We've been over this many times before. You challenge questionable information at the article Talk page, not here. If the article states she was 100, she was 100, unless you can get the details changed in her article with the help of reliable sources to back you up. Merely comparing countless different sources achieves nothing but to illustrate how unreliable the internet can be sometimes for accurate information. This is the kind of thing which seems to result in your being blocked from editing. Ref ^(chew)(do) 06:14, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2020

For Keshubhai Patel's passing, please change "respiratory failure" to "Post Covid-19 Complications".

The article "Former Gujarat chief minister Keshubhai Patel passes away at 92" by India TV states through his son that "Though he recently recovered from coronavirus, his health kept deteriorating due to post-Covid effects in the body,". So "Post Covid-19 Complications" wouldn't be inaccurate. Jazzhands90 (talk) 12:22, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

For me, contentious. More input needed before this edit request can be "answered". Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:15, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:43, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

feedback

Hi guys , I am just making myself known here I am just leaving some feedback on the astounding work that you all have been doing this year regarding this article , I have been overseeing the progress with each new addition you all put on it and it’s shows. I am newbie as in a member on Wikipedia , I have been a avid reader in this site for a 8-9 year period now. Regards, KnowKing4298 (talk) 23:26, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the plaudits. Ref ^(chew)(do) 06:59, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

No worries , just admiring the great effort . Regards, KnowKing4298 (talk) 11:52, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2020

Could someone please clarify when Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri really died. He is once again listed on October 26, but that does not make sense. New York Times states : ”the party said on Sunday that al-Douri had died in Iraq a day earlier”. How could a day earlier than Sunday possibly be Monday the 26th? [31] 95.199.13.89 (talk) 14:55, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi , I have had a quick scan of the main article page on Wikipedia and the main articles link article and it’s inconceivable that he has died because it’s a mixmatched mess on the subjects main Wikipedia page as it’s tells he had died sometime in 2005 , but it follows on that he had reported to have died sometime after that e.g 2012 , 2016 as a note was sent to the family to say he had died . Really ambiguous as to if he’s considered living or has actually passed away . I am sorry but I don’t know if has really passed away since he’s a Iraqi aide as I found out from the news report to say he’s “reported dead “ so it could mean anything . I am not being close minded but just offering my opinion and conclusion. So it a big question mark ? Anymore from that it’s anyone’s guess work . Hope this helps in a way . Regards KnowKing4298 (talk) 15:30, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

The NY Times is a very reliable source, and here it clearly states: "The party said on Sunday that Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, a close aide to Mr. Hussein, had died in Iraq a day earlier." Sunday was 25th, a day earlier is 24th, therefore moved from 26th to 24th. Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:45, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Okay , thanks for pointing that out to me . Regards, KNOWKING4298<> (talk) 23:04, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

@Refsworldlee: Al-Baath party made a statement on Monday 26th (still Sunday in the U.S.): "Today, the knight of the Baath and the Iraqi national resistance has dismounted from his horse", written in The New York Times source! As you wrote they reported that the "party" mentioned that he died a day earlier! They should be ashamed of themselves for this amateurish reporting! All Arab media reported on 26th that he died "Today"! Why should anyone follow this confused source which even contradicted itself! Hence, I recommend to keep the date as 26th as reported by many sources instead of one self-confused one. 112.119.201.106 (talk) 06:35, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, let's see how that plays out then. Either NY Times corrects itself or the Arab media corrects itself; however, I don't yet see any reason to revert myself. That would be for others to do, if convinced. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 06:39, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@Refsworldlee: You do not want to revert yourself?! but you are the one who changed the date to 24th "twice", then it would be in no way that "Arab media" which are plenty not only one which reported the 26th, would reconsider based on a self-contradicting article from NYT. You should have not changed the date before discussing it here in the first place! You followed that IP-user with his source and enforced the final outcome, why would the media report a statement on 26th, including "Today" to announce his death from a day earlier in the United States according to NYT, then you want to keep it as 24th in Iraq ... logic is dead here ! 112.119.201.106 (talk) 07:42, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@Refsworldlee: This is (source) from BBC Arabic on 26th, they wrote that Al-Baath party made a statement that he died "Today". Please reconsider. 112.119.201.106 (talk) 07:52, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

"Announced today" that he had died. Stop twisting things. Ref ^(chew)(do) 12:38, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Sean Connery

We are pretty in the Jole Santelli situation. Since he likely died during the night between 30 and 31 October we'll never know the exact date. And DAOTD will remain there forever. For mere hours. --Folengo (talk) 13:36, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

He just died. Be patient. Wait for the real media to sort it. WWGB (talk) 13:40, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

You think that might be contentious? Look at the section above this (which frankly I'm done with). Some folk don't know when to stop. Ref ^(chew)(do) 13:50, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

There is simply no way to sort it, if not arbitrarily. Let's put it this way: Sean Connery goes to sleep at 9.00 pm, they found him dead next morning at 7.00 a.m., just for example. How do you know if he died before or after midnight? An autopsy is excluded, so every source will say "on the night between 30 and 31 October" and there is absolutely no way to sort it. --Folengo (talk) 13:56, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

NYT goes with Saturday. Enough? --Folengo (talk) 13:58, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

NBC News is also saying Saturday: [32] MikaelaArsenault (talk) 14:21, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good. Ref ^(chew)(do) 16:35, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Another Wikipedia user did say this: NBC News says "died Saturday, the official James Bond account on Twitter confirmed", but the official James Bond account on Twitter doesn't say which date! MikaelaArsenault (talk) 17:56, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Look, we have multiple strong sources confirming today is the DOD. It’s done. Rusted AutoParts 18:42, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Saturday is October 31st. DrKilleMoff (talk) 18:38, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I was confused as in what sources said which. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 19:09, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

If anyone wants to readd dementia as the cause of death, just doublecheck whether a reliable source says that's what killed him and cite it, please. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:16, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Dementia-related deaths can only be entered as "complications from dementia" or similar indirect description, as dementia itself cannot be a killer. However many times we have to point this out here, that doesn't change. Ref ^(chew)(do) 00:05, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Personally, I 100% agree that dementia itself is not reasonably deadly. Wikipedily though, we need exactly as many reliable sources blaming "complications of" as we do just plain "dementia" (one). As editors, we can paraphrase, but can't add or change meaning, even if we know we know better than our source(s). InedibleHulk (talk) 03:09, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

We can choose to leave plain "dementia" out though. And that's what we should do when we realize that the reporteur has not done their basic research. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:32, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Let's cross that bridge if we come to it. Certain reporteurs are more easily "pooh-poohed" than others, as they say in Paris. I'm not fighting anyone from Reuters (for example) over this, even if you do. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:08, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

The article from France 24 is saying that he suffered from dementia. [33] MikaelaArsenault (talk) 13:33, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

"Suffering from dementia" is not a cause of death, and that's all we need here. Ref ^(chew)(do) 14:59, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

COD updated. Wyliepedia @ 18:46, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

We also got the specific time of death, so that uncertainty of if it was late in the night or early in the morning is over. Rusted AutoParts 18:59, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Mahmoud Yassine or Mahmoud Yassin October

Two spellings, two dates of death (Oct 14, Oct 19).Calmecac5 (talk) 18:40, 11 November 2020 (UTC)