Talk:Derry Girls

Year it is set

Are we sure that this is set in 1994? In episode 3 the Corrs song What Can I do was played as the priest was walking away. What can I do was released in 1998 so it would not have been heard in 1994. Mobile mundo (talk) 18:34, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Ooh Aah... Just a Little Bit - released in 1996 - was played during e4. However, it's sourced that it's set in 1994, so it seems to be a mistake on the part of the person who chose the music. Jim Michael (talk) 01:37, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks (Mobile mundo (talk) 22:36, 30 January 2018 (UTC))

Background music is not a good indicator; that could be artistic license to use the era's music instead of being beholden to the exact release. Even if it's part of the set (eg: playing on a device in a scene) it could just have been lazy period research by the production (or a mistake a la Spartacus and Ben Hur goofs). To be sure, stick to things you'd see written in the screenplay (core to the scene itself). --Jndrline (talk) 20:21, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Sources can be wrong, too. The ones I have seen seem to suggest 1990s, no more, and I wonder if the Irish Examiner deduced '94 from a preview of the first episode and the music therein? - Sitush (talk) 17:28, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Two of the sources we are using, along with some others, state that it's set in 1994. Many other sources simply say 1990s. There are hundreds of TV shows & films in which mistakes have been made in including songs, vehicles, technology which did not yet exist at the time it it set. Those are simply mistakes on the part of the makers of the TV show/film in question, rather than proof that it couldn't be set when stated.

Yes, and there are plenty of newspapers etc that copy stuff from each other and, indeed, from Wikipedia. If we have a source saying that C4 or McGee themselves specifically say 1994 then that's fine. Otherwise, let's stick to 1990s. -

Channel 4's summary of e1 says it's set in the early 1990s; 1994 is the most recent year that could reasonably be described as being in the early 90s. There are references to 1994 - including Michelle talking about watching Pulp Fiction and Saturday Night being played - ruling out any year prior to 94. Jim Michael (talk) 22:05, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes but, equally, Mobile mundo (talk · contribs) notes a later reference. I think you may be unnecessarily digging your heels in here because there are clear discrepancies and, as I said above, the Irish Examiner may have done the same cultural analysis as you, which only applies to the early episodes. Furthermore, since another series has been commissioned, I think it is quite likely that it will move on in time anyway. - Sitush (talk) 22:12, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Clare or Claire?

Both versions are used in the article. Which one is correct? Mobile mundo (talk) 22:50, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I changed all mentions to Clare, based on the spelling in sources used in the article. Jim Michael (talk) 01:08, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

LGBTQ categories

I have removed the LGBT categories again. I accept that episode 6 saw one of the characters come out as lesbian but that does not make the series in any way significantly related to the subject. The series is over and only in the last episode has it been raised, although there has previously been the taunting of the English lad also. If we add this type of category here then it should be added to pretty much every soap opera broadcast in the UK, for example, and it is not. They all have storylines of this nature as a part of the diversity campaign etc but unless it is a major theme, the category appears to be undue. - Sitush (talk) 19:28, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Nationality

Produced by a British company and broadcast by a British broadcaster but featuring a cast that is mostly Irish of some description (Eire and/or Northern, I am not checking every bio to figure it out) and written by someone of similar description. I realise that some people in Ireland get very pissed off with what they perceive as oppressive descriptions etc relating to mainland Britain and that, yes, the terminology often leads to edit wars, but I'm pretty sure that the standard taken by Wikipedia is that it is the production company that matters when determining the national origin.

In any event, I think the recent attempts to add Irish and even to replace British entirely with that descriptor, are misleading at best precisely because there is no united Ireland. If it goes in at all, it will almost certainly need to be more nuanced. - Sitush (talk) 23:38, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Why does it have to be 'British'? Why not use the wording 'Derry Girls is a UK teen sitcom...' to avoid offence, as that is, after all, the name of the country? 81.111.128.122 (talk) 22:10, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

And a quick note about terminology for those not from the British Isles. Britain is England and Wales. Great Britain is England, Wales, and Scotland (Act of the Union, 1707 and later). The UK is by its full title "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Most would imply by that full title that Northern Ireland is not part of Britain or Great Britain; some however would disagree (quite vehemently no doubt). The former title of the UK was "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" (prior to partition), obviously many would object to saying that Ireland was a part of Britain (back then or now). Welcome to the identity politics of Ireland (north or south). Some from Northern Ireland would say they are British and some go further and say that Northern Ireland is also British (even though officially the name of the UK would imply otherwise). 82.7.191.68 (talk) 22:48, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

You say that Britain is England & Wales, but Britain is usually considered to be the same thing as Great Britain and certainly includes Scotland. Jim Michael (talk) 14:50, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

See Father Ted. British production company so it is British, as you said. You might need to use the pedantic wording "British made" to reduce the chances of edit warring. Footnotes and source comments might also be necessary, this article will need so many reverts no matter what you do. -- 109.79.90.178 (talk) 05:11, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

I was too optimistic, this article needs to be locked and stay locked for at year at the very least. -- 109.79.163.125 (talk) 22:18, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't see how it can be argued it is British purely based on the studio by which it is produced. Harry Potter is produced by Warner Bros. Yet it is still referred to as British. Netcald (talk) 19:59, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

The Harry Potter movies are joint US/British productions. Production companies are Warner Brothers (American) and Heyday Films (British). Hence why the Harry Potter movies aren't referred to as having a nationality because per WP:FILM you don't do that when there's more than one country involved in the making of it. I don't see anywhere where we refer to them as British films. Canterbury Tail talk 20:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I believe it should be referred to as Irish. The Good Friday Agreement gives the people in NI (where this is set) “the right of "the people of Northern Ireland" to "identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both"”. I think the show, and characters, and setting identify themselves as Irish. Even by using the term “Derry” (rather than “Londonderry” #) show an Irish identification. Ebelular (talk) 14:54, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Show is not a person, and the company it was made by (and who owns it) is British. Show nationality is not about what or whom is in it, but who makes it. Canterbury Tail talk 15:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Historical and political backdrop

The show itself does very little in the way of explaining the context (eg: doesn't actually explain what the Orange Order is). Perhaps this page should.

True, but we have links for that purpose which I believe are sufficient. For example, the lead includes a link to the Troubles and e5's description includes links to The Twelfth & Orange walk. Jim Michael (talk) 11:46, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Plot summaries

I know some people are obsessive about stuff but do we really have to have the plot summaries? If the series is ever repeated, they're spoilers. If it isn't, well, they're not a great loss. It strikes me that too much effort is being expended on repeated changes to something of little worth. And please don't say that other series have them so this one should - I don't consider that to be a valid reason for anything in particular and I have a strong suspicion that most people do not give a damn about them.

It is/was a throwaway comedy series, not some iconic multi-part documentary intended to explain and define history or whatever, eg: The World at War. Most of the cast weren't even particularly well-known at the time. - Sitush (talk) 18:20, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

It's not obsessive to have summaries for each episode - it's standard for TV series, regardless of genre. We don't avoid giving details for the sake of avoiding spoilers, because people who don't want to know what happens won't choose to read the episode synopses. They're useful, relevant info. Many people who are interested in the show will read them, for example to refresh their memory before watching s2. People who aren't interested won't choose to read the article at all. It's not throwaway or of little worth - the series has been watched by millions of people and the article read by many thousands of people. It will be repeated, probably prior to s2 being shown in March. Jim Michael (talk) 22:46, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

It's crap, whether other stuff exists or not. But I will let you indulge your obsession provided you do not keep linking to copyright violations on youtube etc. - Sitush (talk) 14:25, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

It's neither crap nor an obsession. It's useful, relevant, standard information which is (and is meant to be) on hundreds of WP articles about TV shows. If you're not interested in the show, why are you on this article, let alone its talk page?

Why do you wrongly believe that I linked to copyvios? The only links I provided were to the website of its original broadcaster Channel 4 and to the YT channel of the show's production company, Hat Trick Productions. I did that in order to prove which song was played during a particular scene in e6. Jim Michael (talk) 18:55, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Series 3

I stumbled across the following source for s3:

Warner, Sam (9 March 2020). "'Derry Girls' season three may be its last". NME. Retrieved 9 June 2020. Tiernan also confirmed that filming is due to begin in April

but I guess Covid's blown that out of the water. Cabayi (talk) 13:17, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2020

Derry Girls is actually a northern Irish sitcom , not a British sitcom. It focuses on a catholic northern Irish family not a Protestant. If it were to focus on a Protestant family it would be a British sitcom. If you refer to Wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie-Lee_O'Donnell you can see the lead actress is originally from Derry , where the sitcom is set - and it states she is a norther Irish actress. Which makes the sitcom Northern Irish NOT British. Kirsten Browne (talk) 12:08, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Kirsten Browne, there's a sleepy discussion above in the section #Nationality. Cabayi (talk) 12:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually that's not how we determine the nationality of a TV show or movie etc. It's all based on the company that actually makes it. For instance Father Ted is British due to the fact it's made by Hat Trick Productions, a British company. In fact that's the exact same reason here, it's made by Hat Trick Productions a British company. The setting, characters, actors etc have no bearing on how a movie or show determines its nationality, purely the company that makes it. And of course reliable sources. Companies make shows and movies set in other countries with other nationalities of cast but it doesn't change the nationality of the show. A good example is Game of Thrones. Mostly British and Irish cast, filmed in Northern Ireland, Iceland and a few other European countries, but it's an American show because the production company that made it is American. Canterbury Tail talk 12:43, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 July 2020

Should be 'Northern Irish sitcom' instead of 'British sitcom' Lazyyymondaysss (talk) 04:29, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Read the previous discussion. Cabayi (talk) 05:01, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Production company is definitely British, if we're being accurate English, not Northern Irish. Canterbury Tail talk 11:35, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2020

I want to change this page to say that this series is a Northern Irish sitcom and not a British sitcom. Northern Ireland might be part of the U.K. but it's not in Britain. JeffJefferson3333 (talk) 14:42, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Not done. The show is made by a British company, Hat Trick productions, not a Northern Ireland company. Nationality is based on reliable sources and the production companies. Canterbury Tail talk 14:45, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Can we follow the format of Father ted in that case ? "Father Ted is a sitcom created by Irish writers Graham Linehan and Arthur Mathews and produced by British production company Hat Trick Productions for Channel 4." IrishReader1996 (talk) 18:00, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

How does that help here? The writer is from Northern Ireland, which is still in the UK. Lisa McGee is proud of her Northern Ireland upbringing and doesn't appear to publicly identify as Irish, but primarily Northern Irish. At the end of the day it's still a British sitcom, the nationality of all TV and movies is identified based on the production companies that actually make it, not the actors, directors or writers. And even if we did, it's still a British show no matter if we identify the writer as Irish, infobox, production etc all says so. Why would you call out the nationality of one part of the show and ignore the nationality of the rest? Canterbury Tail talk 19:34, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Why would we not follow the established format of the father ted wiki page ? Father ted is not listed as a British sitcom on here and neither should derry girls. Lisa mcgee has publically identified as Irish also see link where she refers to herself as Irish many times throughout. https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/lisa-mcgee-i-had-to-defend-being-irish-41163580.html IrishReader1996 (talk) 19:47, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Also, to add Northern Ireland is not part of Britain, it is part of the UK. Therefore, the only part of this show that is British is the production company. It is set in Northern Ireland, not Britain. IrishReader1996 (talk) 19:49, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Why would we identify it as Irish when it's made by a British company and TV shows and films are universally identified by the nationality of their production companies? As for Father Ted note WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. We don't continually call out the nationalities of everyone involved in TV and films when we mention people and companies, that would get ridiculous very very fast. And you know full well that British is the demonym for people, companies, objects etc. from the United Kingdom and that Britain is a common word for the UK, we're not talking Great Britain which is something else. And where a TV show or movie is set has nothing to do with its nationality. Canterbury Tail talk 19:53, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I'd suggest if you wish to change the consensus on this page, you start a new section (people will lose things in this one) and make your case. After all, consensus can change. However don't change the current consensus or edit war until a consensus has been established per WP:BRD.Canterbury Tail talk 19:55, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I will do that thanks IrishReader1996 (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Happy editing, and yes I do fully agree that consensus can change. Canterbury Tail talk 19:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Camera setup

This is not a multi-camera show. An example of one would be The IT Crowd. This is a single-camera show, like Toast of London. Bondfool (talk) 12:04, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

What do reliable sources say? Canterbury Tail talk 12:30, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Rewording opening sentence

I believe we should remove the reference to the show as British. The opening to this article currently reads as "Derry Girls is a British teen sitcom created and written by Lisa McGee that premiered on 4 January 2018 on Channel 4" The connection the show has to Britain is that it is made by a British production company Hat Trick productions for British television network Channel 4. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom the term British and Britain refers to the island of Britain. Father Ted was also made by this same British company and television network and there is no reference to it being a British show in its opening, "Father Ted is a sitcom created by Irish writers Graham Linehan and Arthur Mathews and produced by British production company Hat Trick Productions for Channel 4." As this show is written by an Irish writer (Born in Northern Ireland and identifys as Irish) the article should follow the same format as Father Ted example "Derry Girls is a teen sitcom created and written by Irish writer Lisa McGee and produced by British production company Hat Trick Productions for Channel 4" — Preceding unsigned comment added by IrishReader1996 (talk • contribs) 20:10, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

So I disagree with your reasoning, that British refers to the island of Britain when it's an internationally normal demonym for United Kingdom not the island of Great Britain. Anything Northern Irish (excluding people who are allowed self-identification under the Belfast Agreement) is also British due to being in the United Kingdom. That being said however, I think I was a little hasty earlier. I think it's weird to always say the nationality of a person or company when we introduce it, but your wording seems reasonable. We still cover that the show is from the United Kingdom, which is factual and referenceable, and we now have references for Lisa's Irish identification in her article which I'd not come across before. So I think your wording could be okay. Does anyone object? (Note: I reworded the title of this section as this isn't a semi-protect edit situation as you're able to edit the article directly, it's a consensus discussion. If the title doesn't seem suitable feel free to tweak it.) Canterbury Tail talk 20:34, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I see no one else has weighed in on this ? Am I free to make the suggested edit ? IrishReader1996 (talk) 13:22, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

No concerns from me. Checking MOS:TVNATIONALITY, I see that it actually recommends omitting a simple nationality if there where there is plurality, so the proposal looks OK. Girth Summit _(blether) 13:37, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

The thing here is the nationality appears clearly singular, only one production company and it's British. Writers, directors, actors, special effects houses, filming location, setting etc. are never considered for a film or TV series nationality, it's all down to the company that actually makes it. Otherwise X-Files (and most American sci-fi shows these days) would be Canadian, Game of Thrones isn't British/Irish or anything other than American despite it's filming locations and cast. Canterbury Tail talk 14:29, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

TVNATIONALITY prefers the nationality descriptor to be sourced to reliable sources. There are such sources for "Irish" like Insider and The Independent (obliquely). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:40, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I suggested following the Father Ted format as it was accepted after much debate on that talk page while the show is also made by the exact same production company as Derry Girls and broadcast on the same channel. IrishReader1996 (talk) 15:07, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

TV articles certainly aren't my area of expertise, but I read the guidance as talking about the nation where 'creative control' was exercised. I was thinking along the lines of the screenwriter exercising an element of creative control, but I guess you're right that a Hollywood film with a British scriptwriter would still be an American film. Meh - I'm not too bothered either way - we just shouldn't be calling it 'Irish', as an IP I recently reverted here seemed to think. Girth Summit _(blether) 15:56, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure about that exact language, but I do support a more nuanced take on the national origin of the show. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:59, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Can I suggest "Derry Girls is a British made teen sitcom set in Northern Ireland, created and written by Lisa McGee that premiered on 4 January 2018 on Channel 4" purely because I believe the setting of Northern Ireland is on of the most distinguishing aspects of this show. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.219.70.31 (talk) 09:12, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

"Teen sitcom" is arguable but, as I argue it, blatantly wrong. The linked page "teen sitcoms" says (correctly) "a subgenre of comedic television program targeted towards young people" (as opposed to one in which the characters are teenagers). Is there any evidence (e.g. something the writer has said/written) that suggests Derry Girls is aimed at teenagers? To me it simply isn't, and I think this description is an error. Don't get me started on the nationality!  ;-) AndyI 12:29, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

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Possibly the reuploaded mural should be deleted again from commons? Darrelljon (talk) 14:56, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Great uncle

So an editor keeps insisting on removing the term "great uncle" on the grounds that it's a term that doesn't exist, and changing it to "grand uncle" despite the evidence that A) a great uncle is indeed a thing and B) is more used than grand uncle Even the dictionary definition for grand uncle states it's another term for great uncle. Not sure why this editor is so insistent that the actual term used in British and Irish English is removed in favour of a less used term that isn't the English variation of the article anyway. It makes no sense to change a valid, and the most used, term for a lesser used term that isn't used as frequently in the version of English for the article and subject. Canterbury Tail talk 17:50, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2024

"Change British sitcom to Irish sitcom. Story follows Irish identifying characters and point of view in Northern Ireland, not British". 91.125.2.180 (talk) 10:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Not done. Set in the UK but most importantly made by a British company. TV and films are not allocated nationality based on their subject but by the companies that make them. Canterbury Tail talk 12:27, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal re: nationality

There is clear division on referring to the show as either "British" or "(Northern) Irish". My proposal is to not explicitly say either. Although the current wording is "British", enforced with reversions, there has as far as I can see been clear consensus through discussion.

MOS:TVNATIONALITY says A series's nationality (country of origin) should be referenced by reliable sources, directly if possible, but otherwise by referencing the country or collaboration within which principal creative control was exercised. If singularly defined, it should be identified in the opening sentence. If the nationality is not singular or cannot be supported by appropriate citation, omit the information from the introductory sentence and cover the different national interests later, where these can reliably be referenced. The nationality is not directly referenced in the article (although I'm sure there are sources referring to it as "British"), and as Firefangledfeathers said over 2 years ago, sources refer to the show as "Irish", too. This was not responded to by the main proponent for leaving "British" in the lead, Canterbury Tail.

The nationality is clearly non-singular and subject to dispute, so the clear solution is to omit nationality and cover national interests later, as the guideline suggests and, as others have pointed out over the years, as is seen in Father Ted, a directly comparable show as it is produced by the same company for the same channel. This solution would be accurate and remove the controversial nature of the label while only being a little less concise.

I'm unconvinced by the 'consensus' from discussion on this page, but if there has been more comprehensive discussion elsewhere please do signpost me there! Irltoad (talk) 23:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

The problem here is Northern Ireland is (currently) part of the United Kingdom. And it's quite clear that principal creative control was in the United Kingdom, unlike Father Ted which was filmed in Ireland and used Irish crew etc. It was made in the UK, by people from the UK and even written by someone from the UK. Principal creative control is clearly from the UK and is in no sense ever of Irish nationality. Since we're talking production companies here and not people, they can only be of the nationality of the country they're in, they can't identify as another nationality. So they can never identify as Irish because it's all in the United Kingdom and the descriptor for Northern Ireland isn't Irish. Northern Ireland on the island of Ireland yes, as we all know, but is part of the United Kingdom. Anyway creative control is very obviously Hat Trick Productions, based in England, but we're not about to call it an English show. Canterbury Tail talk 03:00, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree with your core point – that it is a show originating in the UK – but I don't wholly agree with you. For one, "Irish" is absolutely a descriptor for people or things from Northern Ireland: "Irish" also refers to people and things from the island of Ireland. I'd also point out that Hat Trick isn't solely based in England but also Belfast (per https://www.hattrick.co.uk/team/). The producer, Brian J. Falconer, is from Enniskillen and "based in Belfast" (per https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/my-night-with-the-stars-at-awards-gala/30978372.html – also per his LinkedIn but obviously a primary source).

I haven't found sources saying either way whether production was primarily in the London or Belfast office, but given that Falconer is based in Belfast, it seems fair to say it was likely Belfast based as well (this admittedly falls foul of WP:OR, but so would claiming production was based in England and at least this has sources to back it). I did check, and the Belfast office isn't new; it was open during production of DG (https://northernirelandscreen.co.uk/news/general/hat-trick-appoints-louise-gallagher-scripted-executive-producer/) Belfast can be described as Irish, Northern Irish, or British. Description as "British" or "Irish" is contentious, but as "Northern Irish" (which is a valid demonym, see Liam Neeson) is less-so. I'll also add that, although you made fair distinction between Father Ted being filmed in Ireland with Irish crews, as many Northern Irish people consider themselves "Irish", the same could be said for Derry Girls.

But that's not the point I'm trying to make really. I agree that the show could be called "British"; the above is to argue that it could (and is) equally referred to as "Irish" and "Northern Irish". Filming, cast, crews, were principally Northern Irish, and pre- and post-production were likely at least partly in Northern Ireland.

This, paired with the contention on describing "Northern Irish" people and things as "British" and sources referring to the show either of the three is, in my view, enough to make the nationality not singular, so shouldn't be explicitly described as such, per MOS:TVNATIONALITY.

I'll also note that, despite the shortcut, a TV show does not have a "nationality" but a country of origin. Northern Ireland, being a "country" in the UK, is at least as equal a contender for "country of origin" as the UK as a whole. I would support it being referred to as "Northern Irish" but appreciate the arguments against, so my proposal seems a perfectly reasonable compromise. Irltoad (talk) 10:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Just a quick addition to this, Derry Girls also received funding from Northern Ireland Screen and Invest NI and "is a showcase of creative talent from Northern Ireland, entirely set and made locally." "Made locally" feels an important point of support for it being a Northern Irish production, despite Hat Trick HQ being in London. Irltoad (talk) 10:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC) Irltoad (talk) 10:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

So at best we can describe it as Northern Irish then, but not Irish. Canterbury Tail talk 13:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, and as I said I would support it being referred to as such; I never said it should be called "Irish" (though I know others have). To reiterate, I would support calling it "Northern Irish" ("Derry Girls is a Northern Irish period teen sitcom ...") or omitting that information and covering interests later, eg. "Derry Girls is a period teen sitcom set in Northern Ireland, created and written by Irish screenwriter Lisa McGee and produced by British production company Hat Trick Productions", or words to that effect. From my perspective, these are the best and most correct ways of phrasing it. Irltoad (talk) 14:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Please forgive the wall of text! Irltoad (talk) 10:17, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

References