Talk:Desert Training Center

Shavers Summit Army Air Field, Thermal, California

Anyone know about this? I bet it is Jacqueline Cochran Regional Airport Paul, in Saudi (talk) 11:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• Listed, it became Chiriaco Summit Airport. Telecine Guy (talk) 21:05, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

References

March 2020

I am removing a link that has been added to an external private site, "Desert Training Center Sky Trail", due to the fact that it is an insecure website that announces on it's splash page:

When you characterize the DTC Sky Trail web site as an insecure website, exactly what are you implying? Are you able to provide any tangible evidence that supports your assertion? If not, please refrain from making that characterization.

Disclaimer
The information contained within these pages is intended to be strictly and solely ADVISORY in nature. It is entirely possible that it may contain errors and omissions, and is likely to be out of date.

The Disclaimer text you quoted above refers to the aeronautical content, not the historical content that is the subject of the page we are editing.

Therefore it is not a reliable source WP:RS.

Because your conclusion is apparently based on your misunderstanding of the disclaimer text, your contention that the DTC Sky Trail web site is not a reliable source is unfounded and offensive.

Additionally it may be spam or clickbait, and is not verifiable WP:VERIFY.

So, you are unable to support your spam/clickbait allegation with any tangible evidence. As we have no agreed upon definition of the words spam and clickbait, it is difficult to argue their merit. If by spam your are referring to commercial content, as evidenced by the Buy Now menu pop-up, that is unintentional and being removed. You will find no other requests for money on the web site. If by clickbait you are referring to a sensationalized headline or piece of text on the Internet designed to entice people to follow a link to an article on another web page. Please reconsider your conclusion on these points, or provide tangible evidence to support it.

Further, the splash page states:

By clicking on the link below, you acknowledge this disclaimer statement, and you agree to take full and exclusive responsibility for your actions. Further, you agree to hold harmless all parties involved in making available the information contained on this web site.

That does not give one much confidence in the website. Netherzone (talk) 17:33, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

That statement is not intended to inspire confidence in the website; it is intended to alert airmen who intend to fly the sky trail to do their FAA required diligence in verifying the aviation related information is up to date. Your inference is an erroneous personal opinion, and as such is inappropriate in characterizing the entire web site, especially its historic information. If you still object to the Disclaimer page, it is a simple matter to bypass it with this URL.

From what you are saying, it is clear that you have failed to comprehend the intent of the Disclaimer, and obviously have not taken the time a professional editor would have devoted to evaluating the material contained within the pages of the web site. Please slow down, and practice professional diligence, instead of hurried, cursory mischaracterization. Thank you.

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It's not a spam site nor click-bait.

The DTC Sky Trail web site received a Wolf Aviation Fund Grant for its creation, and it was featured in this article of Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association Pilot magazine: http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2013/March/20/Pattons-desert-camps-viewed-from-above.aspx (Fact is, the http://skytrail.info/new/index.htm web site contains far more factual historic Desert Training Center information than is currently on the Wikipedia page that I edited.)

The publisher of that site collaborated with the US Department of Interior, Bureau of Land Management, and the State of California Department of Parks historian, Matt Bischoff, under contract with Statistical Research Inc in Arizona to create the documents it contains. You will find Matt's authority on this page: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1365054527 . You'll find Matt's credentials substantiated here: https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=23625 . You'll also note, that both Dighera and Bischoff are mentioned in the credits at the end (41:38) of this video98.182.30.72 (talk) 16:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC) whose creation was mandated by the California Public Utilities Commission.

The pop-up you saw is issued by the site that provides the menu system on the DTC Sky Trail web site, not the Sky Trail publisher. It's a non-issue. William Randolph Hurst III was confident enough in the contents of the Sky Trail web site to fly the trail and contact me with his experience.

Are you able to substantiate your allegation that the site is insecure with tangible evidence?

You're assertion that the historical information contained on the DTC Sky Trail web site is "unreliable" says more about you than it does about the information on the site. Perhaps, if you took the time required to educated yourself about the DTC, you would have a better appreciation for the information and its authorities; a professional would get past the pop-up, and actually examine the content.

Please undo your revision to my edit. Thank you. 98.182.30.72 (talk) 16:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Hello! Please assume good faith. The link was not removed because I disagree with the historical content itself. I am very familiar with the Desert Training Center for many years, and have contributed photographs of it to this article and others.

It seems you feel strongly about the external link (see WP:EL) you added, but it is not a verifiable (see WP:VERIFY) nor a reliable source (see WP:RS). This is why it was removed. It is a good practice to add inline citations to content you would like to add to the article (see WP:ILC) rather than an external link.

I'll do both. Thank you for the suggestion.

You mention Mr. Bischoff’s book however you linked to a book on Amazon that is published by lulu.com, which is an online service for self-published books. Self-published books are not considered a reliable source because they are a primary source and anyone can self-publish online (see WP:PRIMARY), WP:RSSELF and/or [1]. Wikipedia’s encyclopedic best practices suggest secondary and tertiary sources (see WP:SECONDARY and WP:TERTIARY). This is because Wikipedia does not allow Original Research (see WP:OR).

That is Matt's latest book. The DTC Sky Trail web site's underling foundation is built upon Bischoff's earlier book The Desert Training Center/California-Arizona Maneuver Area,1942-1944 HISTORICAL AND ARCHAEOLOGICAL CONTEXTS which was commissioned by the Bureau of Land Management under contract with Statistical Research Inc in Arizona. If you had taken the time to actually read and comprehend any of the historic content on theDTC Sky Trail web site, you would have caught that fact. Presumably, you will agree that a US Government document is a reliable source.

Further, If you had bothered to look at the credits in the video link or Matt's California Department of Parks web page, that I previously provided, you'd understand that he is without question the premiere authority on the history of the DTC; Matt is a professional historian after all, and regardless if his latest book was self published on Lulu, it remains professional, factual, and authoritative. In light of that fact, Wikipedia may want to amend its best practices policies.

The external link is the personal blog site of an individual person according to the copyright notice on the splash page. Wikipedia does not consider blogs reliable sources, and given the above, it may be WP:OR.

If by "splash page" you are referring to the Disclaimer page, That page is referring to the aeronautical information for conducting observational flights over the remains of the DTC, not the extensive historic information provided by Bischoff's book The Desert Training Center/California-Arizona Maneuver Area,1942-1944 HISTORICAL AND ARCHAEOLOGICAL CONTEXTS that was published in conjunction with the US Bureau of Land Management in preparation for submission to the National Register of Historic Places. This disclaimer is necessary to reduce the web site's authors from liability exposure, not as a statement concerning the factual historic information contained within its pages.

If by "copyright notice" you are referring to that at the bottom of each page, it does not assert to be a "bolg" personal or otherwise. In fact, there is no mention of the word "blog" anywhere on the site. Of course, without the benefit of links to the specific content to which you are referring, it is impossible to infer your meaning. A professional would have carefully documented and offered the alleged facts he feels buttress his argument.

I see that you are a new editor, welcome to Wikipedia. It may be helpful to become familiar with Wikipedia guidelines and policies that are the best practices developed by the Wikipedia Community. I may be able to help you add content + proper sourcing to the article itself if you are new to editing, but please no more personal attacks (see WP:PA). Best wishes, The Netherzone (talk) 22:02, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Your characterization of my opinions as personal attacks is your inference, not my intended implication. That said, I welcome your assistance in integrating the historical information contained within the DTC Sky Trail web site into this and other Wikipedia articles. Thank you for your kind offer.

And as mentioned in my previous comment, it is a non-secure site, and one that solicits users to “Buy Now”. The tangible evidence of solicitation for money is here: [2] and here [3] and here [4] and here [5] and here [6] therefore it is considered spam or clickbait, however "good" the information may be. You will need to find a reliable source, and this website is not a reliable, secure site.

Please explain what you mean by non-secure site.

I find that "BuyNow" pop-up offensive also, and chose not to pay. The pop-up you saw is issued by the site that provides the menu system on the DTC Sky Trail web site, not the Sky Trail publisher. It appears that OpenCube has disappeared, and as a result a license to remove the pop-up you saw is no longer obtainable. Work is in progress to overcome this issue.

Are you able to provide links to the Desert Training Center content you mentioned having contributed to this page?

Please undo your revision to my edit. Thank you. 98.182.30.72 (talk) 18:54, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Do not edit other users posts on talk pages. Please undo your edits that chopped up my messages into multiple bits, and reply properly using standard threaded discussions. Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia Policies and Guidelines. Wikipedia guidelines state: "that one should never edit or move another users comment". It goes on to state: "you should not break up another editor's text by interleaving your own replies to individual points. This confuses who said what and obscures the original editor's intent." Netherzone (talk) 19:27, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

March 2020 - Restoration of my posts to talk page after they were chopped into bits by IP editor

I am removing a link that has been added to an external private site, "Desert Training Center Sky Trail", due to the fact that it is an insecure website that announces on it's splash page:

Disclaimer The information contained within these pages is intended to be strictly and solely ADVISORY in nature. It is entirely possible that it may contain errors and omissions, and is likely to be out of date.

Therefore it is not a reliable source WP:RS. Additionally it may be spam or clickbait, and is not verifiable WP:VERIFY.

Further, the splash page states:

By clicking on the link below, you acknowledge this disclaimer statement, and you agree to take full and exclusive responsibility for your actions. Further, you agree to hold harmless all parties involved in making available the information contained on this web site.

That does not give one much confidence in the website. Netherzone (talk) 17:33, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

--

Hello! Please assume good faith. The link was not removed because I disagree with the historical content itself. I am very familiar with the Desert Training Center for many years, and have contributed photographs of it to this article and others. It seems you feel strongly about the external link (see WP:EL) you added, but it is not a verifiable (see WP:VERIFY) nor a reliable source (see WP:RS). This is why it was removed. It is a good practice to add inline citations to content you would like to add to the article (see WP:ILC) rather than an external link. You mention Mr. Bischoff’s book however you linked to a book on Amazon that is published by lulu.com, which is an online service for self-published books. Self-published books are not considered Reliable Sources because they are a primary source and anyone can self-publish online (see WP:PRIMARY), WP:RSSELF and/or [1]. Wikipedia’s encyclopedic best practices suggest secondary and tertiary sources (see WP:SECONDARY and WP:TERTIARY). This is because Wikipedia does not allow Original Research (see WP:OR). The external link is the personal blog site of an individual person according to the copyright notice on the splash page. Wikipedia does not consider blogs reliable sources, and given the above, it may be WP:OR. And as mentioned in my previous comment, it is a non-secure site, and one that solicits users to “Buy Now”. The tangible evidence of solicitation for money is here: [2] and here [3] and here [4] and here [5] and here [6] therefore it is considered spam or clickbait, however "good" the information may be. You will need to find a reliable source, and this website is not a reliable, secure site. I see that you are a new editor, welcome to Wikipedia. It may be helpful to become familiar with Wikipedia guidelines and policies that are the best practices developed by the Wikipedia Community. I may be able to help you add content + proper sourcing to the article itself if you are new to editing, but please no more personal attacks (see WP:PA). Best wishes, The Netherzone (talk) 22:02, 20 March 2020 (UTC) Netherzone (talk) 01:54, 28 March 2020 (UTC)