Talk:Gaza Strip famine

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DYK[edit]

Anyone interested might consider making this a DYK proposal, to the credit of its creator and main editor. Nishidani (talk) 10:15, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

DUE concerns[edit]

Hi @טבעת-זרם, thanks for your recent edits to the page. I've moved some of the material you added, because I couldn't find any reliable or high quality sourcing that said that Hamas' actions played a major role in the creation of the famine. The sources you listed seemed to discuss a handful of incidents affecting several shipments on aid (neither the Ynet nor JPost article even mentions the word "famine"), whereas the famine itself seems to be a systematic issue affecting more than half a million people (much larger than several shipments of allegedly stolen goods). I'd be eager to see if there is any reliable sourcing from any major humanitarian organizations (B'tselem, UNOCHA, etc.) that includes Hamas' actions as a primary cause of the famine. Until then, though, placing those incidents in such a prominent position is a major WP:DUE concern. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 21:01, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Any familiarity with aid to famine-struck countries, or people who have worked in this area, will tell one that pilfering or taxing of aid shipments by warlords is part of the course, but is not a factor in the rise or continuation of a state of famine itself. To assert on the basis of some misappropriations that this is relevant to a famine on the scale of a place like Gaza is to purvey, absent any serious official report, propaganda and has no place here. Nishidani (talk) 00:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 March 2024[edit]

In the last line of "Before the War" section:

Change:

"Israel gunships reportedly fired on local fishermen even within these areas."

To:

"Israeli gunships reportedly fired on local fishermen even within these areas."

(poor grammar) Hermes Thrice Great (talk) 13:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 17:59, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Experts warned that the famine in the Gaza Strip was the worst instance of man-made starvation in nearly 100 years"[edit]

The source quotes one person (Alex de Waal): "“The rigor, scale and speed of the destruction of the structures necessary for survival, and enforcement of the siege, surpasses any other case of man-made famine in the last 75 years” . This is not to belittle the gravity of the situation in Gaza, but the sentence needs to be more accurate, otherwise it sounds like hyperbole, given for example the number of people affected by the Famine in Yemen (2016–present) or 2017 South Sudan famine. Kershatz (talk) 09:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lede[edit]

Old: "There is a catastrophic-level food crisis with increasing risk of famine..."

Suggested new: "There is a famine..."

[1] DenverCoder19 (talk) 00:10, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More citations: [2]
I'm changing it. DenverCoder19 (talk) 21:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources in the lede[edit]

Both sources in for the first sentence stating that there is a famine, caused by Israel, are opinion pieces in the Guardian. That's hardly sufficient for a statement of fact. I would suggest to either rephrase it as that being the opinion of some commentators, or find better sources for the claim. 158.174.186.54 (talk) 05:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)Per WP:ARBECR, non EC editors may only file edit requests[reply]

Agreed. It seems most sources do not unequivocally declare there is a famine, but that various aid groups are warning of one if conditions don't improve. How have we handled this topic previously? PrimaPrime (talk) 23:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Opinion pieces are not reliable sources per Wikipedia so they can't be used as sources of fact. I will check this.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 18:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a descriptive title rather than a commonname so I removed the bolding. According to a recent Guardian article, "The US comments add to a growing and powerful consensus that Israel’s military offensive in the Palestinian coastal territory has triggered a famine." Selfstudier (talk) 18:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sources are unequivocal that there is famine in Northern Gaza. Since Northern Gaza is inside Gaza, this means that there is a famine inside Gaza. DenverCoder19 (talk) 00:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article Title[edit]

I was always under the impression that Wikipedia did not make up facts but here we are with an article titled "Gaza Strip Famine" when the UN nor any of the other agencies charged with declaring famines has done so. Shouldn't the title therefore be "Food insecurity in the Gaza Strip" at least until an actual famine breaks out?Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 18:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even the US state department had noted the likelihood of famine, in addition to the UN report on the universal starvation. And "food security crisis" wouldn't be the next step down were a change merited – the ubiquitously reported phraseology of "man-made starvation" would be. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As per section above and the ref provided, there is a "growing and powerful consensus" that a famine has been triggered. And that was before the US comments. Of course you may bring sources that dispute this, as usual. The question of who is charged with declaring a famine is a bit complicated but in any case declarations are in general after the event has already occurred. Selfstudier (talk) 20:12, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The point is Wikipedia editors can't make up names for events themselves. When the UN declares a famine then this page should be called the "Gaza Strip famine" not when editors think a famine has begun. We are fact checkers who shouldn't declare a famine. That only serves to discredit Wikipedia as a non-biased media. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 20:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Who says the UN is the final arbiter? The UN is a very lagging indicator even by Wikipedia standards. The WHO said famine was imminent two weeks ago, before another two weeks of starvation. Now the second and third largest providers of meals have suspended operations, and sources are reporting famine conditions. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It’s possible that editors may have made mistakes or misread/misinterpreted sources. I caught the mistake back in February in my edits here [3]. Situation has gotten worse since then which is probably why other editors changed the lead back to say famine. The first sentence in the current lead seems appropriate given different sources seem to classify it differently. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:18, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
US officials are privately warning the US Adminstration that famine conditions have set in. (Today's news). Iskandar323 (talk) 20:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Democracy Now? That's your source? Could you find a more far-Left pro-Palestinian biased Media outset. What does the UN say? Not a famine so the title of the page shouldn't be famine. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 20:29, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussions about sources should be held at WP:RSN. For now, Democracy Now is a reliable source. See also BBC at [4]. — kashmīrī TALK 20:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Direct quote from the New York Times article today:
“For me, what is important is to basically say that look, technically we haven’t met the conditions of a famine, and frankly we don’t want to meet those conditions,” said Arif Husain, the chief economist of the World Food Program.
I would say the chief economist of the World Food Program stating "we haven’t met the conditions of a famine" means we can't call this page "Gaza Strip Famine." That could change but it's not yet the reality. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 20:41, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Other than being a technical term defined by WFP for its own internal purposes, the English word famine also has a common, widely understood meaning, and that is of extreme scarcity of food[5]. That's the primary meaning, and we're perfectly within our policies to use the term as an article title here. At the same time, we may well decide to disregard certain media sources that might, for a variety of reasons, refer only to the WFP definition. — kashmīrī TALK 21:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you think they are misquoting US officials, please take it up at RSN. Otherwise, their political polarity is irrelevant. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
NYT as of 3 March "It is unclear exactly what authority could declare a famine in Gaza. The I.P.C. group said the process typically involves the government in a country and its top U.N. official. Determining who that authority would be in Gaza was beyond the organization’s scope, it said."
A second IPC analysis was done according to which "the conditions necessary to prevent Famine have not been met" and "According to the most likely scenario, both North Gaza and Gaza Governorates are classified in IPC Phase 5 (Famine) with reasonable evidence" and anyway as is stated in a reliable source, the consensus is that a famine has been triggered regardless. Selfstudier (talk) 21:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is CBS yesterday "international aid agencies say over 1 million people — half of Gaza's population — are now in the midst of a famine." Add to this the reported deaths from hunger, then arguing that there is not a famine seems a little bit out of touch.Selfstudier (talk) 21:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Same article you cited from NYT states, "Since the I.P.C. was developed in 2004, it has been used to identify only two famines: in Somalia in 2011, and in South Sudan in 2017." That's pretty clear about who can declare a famine, The I.P.C. group. In this instance they have not therefore we Wikipedians should not either. This title should be changed to something less extreme but reflective of the gravity of the situation. I suggested "Food insecurity crisis in the Gaza Strip" which skandar323 reverted and claimed was euphemistic. I can understand that as a self described supporter of the Palestinian cause they might be passionate about this topic and feel that using famine in the title will create a sense of urgency but you could just as easily say it's sensationalizing the situation for a political purpose. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 21:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Monopoly31121993(2), are you saying that your edits are absolutely impartial? — kashmīrī TALK 21:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kashmiri, I'm not out here promoting a narrative. I'm trying to get Wikipedia to keep to its roots which is about facts. In this discussion we have had what I would consider a fair discussion about whether we should be using the word famine IN THE TITLE of this article. I think it's clear that a famine has not yet been established as factual. That doesn't mean "famine like conditions" don't exist and that's reflected in the article but it just because some people die or hunger doesn't mean they died in a famine. Famine is a noun and Gaza strip famine is a proper noun for something that simply has not yet to come into wide spread use. That could change very very soon for all I know but Wikipedia should not be creating a narrative it should be stating facts. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 21:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a lot more concise than Man-made starvation of the Gaza Strip. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Monopoly31121993(2), your today's attempt to remove an image from Wikipedia because you considered it highly offensive to most Jews who consider the genocide accusation as blood libel don't give an impression that you're only here to keep [Wikipedia] to its roots which is about facts. Or how should I construe it? — kashmīrī TALK 21:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The recent sources are pretty clear about it and btw, the IPC does not declare a famine, that's just false. Selfstudier (talk) 21:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The IPC is used to declare famine [6].
I would support changing the title if it were December 2023 or even February 2024, but I am not so sure now since there are some sources saying that there might already be famine and also the second IPC report predicted famine in mid-March to mid-July. [7] It’s possible famine could be declared any day now, or even occurring. Most sources are saying “looming famine” or similar. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Authorities" make use of the IPC, but the IPC are not the ones who declare a famine, they provide technical input to the relevant authorities, who then make a declaration. The point I was making above is that there is no clear "authority" for Gaza to do the declaring but that the IPC in its latest review has said " "According to the most likely scenario, both North Gaza and Gaza Governorates are classified in IPC Phase 5 (Famine) with reasonable evidence". Together with the US commentary and other sources, although it does not constitute an "official" declaration, it is not wrong imo to say that there is already famine.
Here is Sky News today "According to the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification Initiative (IPC)'s latest report, North Gaza is already under famine conditions, with the rest of the territory risking the same fate by mid-July unless the situation changes dramatically." Selfstudier (talk) 14:44, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is why I wrote in my comment: The IPC is used to declare famine. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Self-described where? Out of curiosity... Iskandar323 (talk) 21:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article has clear WP:FUTURE problems. It’s listed as if there *is* an established widespread famine across the territory, yet most authoritative sources are only saying that there is a looming threat. If there is famine in one part of the strip, the article title should be Famine in the Gaza Strip, otherwise it appears like we have a serious WP:NCEVENTS (if not potential WP:POVTITLE) issue if this was given a proper event title *before* it actually reached the threshold to be the widespread its being presented to be.Mistamystery (talk) 05:19, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me, what exactly is the difference between Gaza Strip famine and Famine in the Gaza Strip? They both say the same thing except that the first is succinct. At the main war article, the relevant section is titled Gaza famine.
Although I don't see many pressing for any change, if there is a problem with the title, then propose an RM. Selfstudier (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that was a head-scratcher for me too. Updates: As of 22 April, there's a whole report from B'Tselem called "Manufacturing famine" AND an FP piece entitled: Why Aren’t We Talking More About the Famine in Gaza? Iskandar323 (talk) 14:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The difference is "Famine in the Gaza Strip" refers to general phenomena of famine wherever it may occur - be it local or widespread during the conflict, whereas "Gaza Strip famine" (or "The Gaza Strip famine" as it is described in the lede), is a presumed established event with title...except its not. At most, famine may have occurred in the north, and otherwise, has been severely warned to be close everywhere else, but by all professional accounts, it has not happened yet...and something likely to happen (and obviously let us hope it doesn't happen) doesn't mean we get to pre-declare an event.
Otherwise, the way the article currently reads (as a laundry list of items connected to general food availability issues, regardless of proximity to famine) the title should frankly be "Food insecurity in Gaza during the Israel-Hamas war".
Will run a RM soon but who knows if anyone else has anything to chime in on this. Mistamystery (talk) 01:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
“ “Famine in the Gaza Strip" refers to general phenomena of famine wherever it may occur”
That actually makes sense! It does seem like an improvement and would be more accurate. A lot of sources also used “starvation” or “risk of starvation” early on. Wafflefrites (talk) 02:28, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding prepositions and declarative articles wouldn't fundamentally alter the meaning, but it would negatively impact concision. These elements are generally avoided where possible. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:33, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is better to be accurate and precise than concise. What Mistamystery said logically makes sense. The preposition makes it more descriptive, plus adding “in the” is only two very short words. “Candy in America” could refer to international brands such as Cadbury sold in American stores, while “American candy” would refer to brands like Hershey’s. Wafflefrites (talk) 05:11, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sources are unequivocal that there is famine in Northern Gaza. Since Northern Gaza is inside Gaza, this means that there is a famine inside Gaza. DenverCoder19 (talk) 00:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone said that the famine is not "man-made"?[edit]

The only sources I can find claiming that the famine is not "man-made" is from Israel, the alleged perpetrator of the crime. If all sources, including the UN secretary general claim that the famine is "man-made", and no one denies it except the perpetrator, I propose we add the phrase "man-made" to the lede. DenverCoder19 (talk) 17:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Idk, would it be a "quote"? Quotes are not that great in the lead. What you want is to say that this famine was caused by Israel, right? So maybe see if there are sources pinning it on them and go from there. Selfstudier (talk) 17:39, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lead of the famine Wikipedia article lists war as one of the causes of famine, and war is man-made. The words “man-made” though would need to be put in quotes and attributed. Wafflefrites (talk) 17:44, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do we need to distinguish this famine from another, non man-made famine in Gaza Strip? If not, then I can't see why this qualifier would be needed in the title. — kashmīrī TALK 17:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In use[edit]

Hi @DenverCoder19, can you remove the "in use" tag I just added as soon as you are over with your editing? This will help prevent edit conflicts. Cheers, — kashmīrī TALK 18:22, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 April 2024[edit]

After "On 1 April 2024, an Israeli drone fired three consecutive missiles at three cars belonging to the World Central Kitchen (WCK), killing seven aid workers who had been distributing food in the northern Gaza Strip, which has been pushed close to famine by Israel's siege and blockade during the Israel-Hamas war.", add "In response to the attack, both World Central Kitchen and Anera have paused their operations in Gaza." Tul10616 (talk) 00:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The existing AP source does not say operations were suspended. Jamedeus (talk) 00:27, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! The sources come from Anera and WCK themselves:
https://www.anera.org/blog/anera-is-pausing-gaza-operations-amid-rising-threats-and-attack-on-wck/
https://www.worldcentralkitchen.org/news/gaza-team-update Tul10616 (talk) 03:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I recall reading somewhere that Anera may have restarted but in any case, this material seems more appropriate at the article dealing with the strike where it says " The attack led the World Central Kitchen to pause its operations in the Gaza Strip, along with other humanitarian and aid organizations operating there.[1] Selfstudier (talk) 12:14, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Aid organizations suspend operations in Gaza after World Central Kitchen workers' deaths". AP News. 2 April 2024. Retrieved 3 April 2024.

Requested move 24 April 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved/no consensus. I also find no consensus to move to any of the alternative suggested titles. Those can be figured out in a future discussion. Considering the sources provided by both sides of this argument, there is insufficient consensus and evidence to move this article away from its current title. As WP:CRYSTAL was a common argument invoked during this discussion. I would like to point out something mentioned by Kashmiri, an article about an impending event does not violate our policies if discussed in reliable sources, as this event has. Also, considering the note by L235 that this discussion was subject to mass email canvassing by Dizmonreau, that also weighs into the "no consensus" element of my close. I find no consensus to change the title of this article. (closed by non-admin page mover) v/r - Seawolf35 T--C 19:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)(Edit: Fixed mentions. v/r - Seawolf35 T--C 19:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC))[reply]

Gaza Strip famine → Food insecurity in Gaza during the Israel-Hamas war – As per talk page discussion and sources provided in the article, while numerous warnings have been issued as to possible impending or "looming" famine, no formal declaration of famine has been made (either in North Gaza or elsewhere), let alone a WP:COMMONNAME achieved of "The Gaza Strip famine" as this article incorrectly and prematurely has attempted to declare. This is clear breach of WP:FUTURE and WP:NCEVENTS.

Taking the lead from the Center for Strategic and International Studies' most recent report, which believes there is Famine in North Gaza but otherwise affirms that there has yet to be "a formal declaration of famine in Gaza", the most neutral, general, categorical WP:DESCRIPTOR in use by CSIS and other expert bodies in such matters (that covers the full range of items discussed currently in the article) is "food insecurity".

This terminology covers related matters from famine all the way down the IPC scale, and given that the majority of the current article either covers food and nutrition matters all the way up to the standard threshold of famine, or speculates at the presence of famine prior to an official declaration, this article title should suffice until there is a change in official status.

I understand this is a sensitive topic, but our job here is to ensure neutral coverage of current events per WP:WACE. The most authoritative body that has chimed in thus far on the status of famine is the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification, whose most recent report declared famine "imminent", with a likely future projected range of occurrence dates, but that's as far as its gotten.

We obviously can revisit this if there is an official declaration (and let us hope there isn't)...but there hasn't been, and this clear WP:NCEVENTS and WP:FUTURE breach must be remedied immediately.

-

Alternate option: Gaza food crisis - per comments made below, this title is the most widely searched (6x higher) in relation to the food and nutrition situation in Gaza during the conflict and may more aptly convey the severity of the current situation. Mistamystery (talk) 05:02, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Uninvolved administrator note: this discussion was subject to mass email canvassing by Dizmonreau, based on information available to ArbCom and checkuser evidence. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 15:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are the nom, per nom is meaningless and your nomination is your vote. nableezy - 18:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Noted. Did this based on other editors on this page doing the same on other recent RM so thought it was acceptable/standard formatting. Mistamystery (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mistamystery: It's normal for an RFC, where you make a neutral statement and then state your vote, but not so much in an RM, when the opening statement is typically persuasive. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:57, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move, per Nom, as the article is not exclusively concerned with famines (which does not (yet) exist, but with food insecurity as a whole. Therefore, another title may be appropriate, though I have no strong preference regarding which; personally, I like the noms suggestion. FortunateSons (talk) 08:47, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move per nom Zanahary (talk) 17:15, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move per nom מתיאל (talk) 19:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)מתיאל[reply]
Strong oppose: The following article is a good explanation as to how debates over the word "famine" miss the point: In the coming weeks, there will still be continued debate about whether the term “famine” accurately describes the situation in Gaza. And as the long history of famine suggests, the hand-wringing over the use of the word misses the point. This distinction between “widespread hunger” and “famine”—and whether famine is “imminent” or already underway—tells us little about the reality on the ground and what should be done about it... Three points can help make sense of the conversation. The first is that the threshold for declaring famine is arbitrary. There is no clear line between when famine is imminent and when it begins. The second point is that famine is best understood not as an event, but as a process with mass mortality as its culmination. The third point is that declarations of famine are always contested. Furthermore, I think that Gaza Strip famine is much more likely to be the most common search query for those interested in this topic, as opposed to the proposed title. Lastly, I think the fact that USAID has indicated that there are already famine conditions in northern Gaza negates CRYSTAL and effectively warrants keeping the current title. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 17:26, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no clear line between when famine is imminent and when it begins.
This is absolutely not an argument for this article's title referring to a famine. Zanahary (talk) 18:53, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The argument in favor of moving this article misses one key point and another major development. First, the IPC report in question projects that famine will begin between mid-March and May, meaning according to the projections in question the famine has already begun. Notably, the continued validity of these projections in light of events since they were announced has been confirmed by Samantha Power, the head of USAID, in a congressional hearing at the beginning of the month. A source for this has been in the article for almost a month. Perhaps this article was named prematurely when it was first written, but the evidence that famine has begun and will continue is strong enough at this point that it doesn't make sense to move the article for a month or even a few days or weeks while we wait on further, indisputable evidence of famine to emerge. Moreover, whether a famine is ongoing or not, the overwhelming majority of coverage of the "food crisis" in Gaza uses the language of famine, whether ongoing, imminent or otherwise. Famine is the issue in question here, not mere food insecurity or some other euphemism. We can continue to go back and forth about whether the famine is ongoing or imminent, but you'd be hard pressed to find many sources discussing hunger in Gaza that do not employ the word famine in some capacity. Unbandito (talk) 17:55, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move, Per WP:CRYSTALBALL, from the reliable sources I've read, it seems they're reporting on an imminent risk of famine, rather than an ongoing famine. We can reconsider in the future, but at the moment, stating in WP:VOICE that there is a famine may be a bit too soon. Mariamnei (talk) 18:42, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: What about Famine in the Gaza Strip? In a prior talk page discussion, Mistamystery pointed out that “If there is famine in one part of the strip, the article title should be Famine in the Gaza Strip.” Another alternative could be Gaza food crisis.
Maybe we could change the title to something like “Famine in the Gaza Strip” until “Gaza Strip Famine” becomes WP:COMMONNAME. The WFP is saying Gaza could reach famine in 6 weeks[8] , other sources are still reporting “famine risk”, while the CSIS source that Mistamystery provided is titled “Famine in Gaza” and says that “famine thresholds have been passed or are likely to be passed imminently in the North Gaza and Gaza Governorates of the Gaza Strip”.
Per CarmenEsparzaAmoux, I don’t think “Gaza food insecurity” results in many search hits (2.4 mil for me on Google). “Gaza food crisis” returns 80.8 million hits, while “Gaza famine” returns 14.4 million for me. Wafflefrites (talk) 19:07, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe Gaza food crisis is a good alternative for now until famine is officially declared and it is still returning the most search terms for me. Wafflefrites (talk) 19:15, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gaza food crisis is acceptable to me. I changed my mind on my previous suggestion of Famine in the Gaza Strip once I reviewed all the sources and saw the overabundance of "looming", "impending", "soon", "near" langauge, and lack of formal declarations by global bodies. Mistamystery (talk) 19:55, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - very obviously the most common term used for this topic, and "food insecurity" is downplaying it so much it would be funny if not for the topic of the article. nableezy - 19:59, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Gaza food crisis until famine is officially declared. It could be declared as soon as 6 weeks. In the meantime, I think Wikipedia should try to be as accurate as possible. I think the CRYSTALBALL arguments make sense.
Also, I am still not sure about the “Gaza Strip famine” title format because looking at other Wikipedia titles, they seem to be “Famine in”, for example Famine in India, Famine in northern Ethiopia (2020–present), Famine in Yemen (2016–present). Maybe if “Gaza Strip famine” becomes the COMMONNAME, we can use it, but it seems “Famine in” is how it is commonly presented in the Wikipedia article titles. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:07, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind about the “Famine in” comment. there are also articles titled Kazakh famine of 1919–1922 and a Kazakh famine of 1930–1933 Wafflefrites (talk) 20:31, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem here is that there isn't an official body that declares a famine right when it happens. Not even the IPC, whose analysis is fundamental to this article, declares a famine in real time. Other international bodies are and media outlets are waiting for someone else to be the first to say what everyone knows is true. This makes for a tricky issue for wikipedia editors. We can't be the ones to declare a famine, but we also have a responsibility to keep wikipedia reliable and up to date. There is an easy way around this issue however, if we can agree that the prevailing discussion, which centers not on whether or not the food crisis in Gaza amounts to a famine, but rather how long until it will constitute one, is reason enough to use the term famine in the title. I think it clearly is. We wouldn't remove or rename the page for the 2024 United States presidential election because we can't be sure if it will happen yet. Experts agree it is a near certainty and are discussing it as if it's an inevitability. The same is true here. Unbandito (talk) 05:27, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Serious consideration should be given to Israeli weaponization of food in Gaza per sources Israel’s weaponisation of food in Gaza and Gaza: weaponisation of food has been used in conflicts for centuries – but it hasn’t always resulted in victory, plenty of sources using this or similar formulation, "weapon of war", a war crime. Food insecurity is an obnoxious euphemism for what is occurring, namely the systematic creation of a famine for political ends. Selfstudier (talk) 20:18, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose to this proposal. This is a fringe wording, not the common name for anything, not particularly illustrative, not strongly sourced. Zanahary (talk) 20:37, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Plenty of sources. Selfstudier (talk) 20:43, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that “food insecurity” is too euphemistic. I proposed “Gaza food crisis” as a temporary name change.
Oh no, Selfstudier, not “Weaponization of food.” That is a catachresis, which is misuse of words for rhetorical effect. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:47, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sourced. Selfstudier (talk) 22:40, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t know what that means but “Weaponization of food” doesn’t seem right, although I have read “starvation as a weapon of war” which I believe is a simile. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:43, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lots of things get weaponized, the word is normalized in the language nowadays. Selfstudier (talk) 22:45, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
EU official accuses Israel of weaponizing hunger as report warns Gaza famine imminent Selfstudier (talk) 22:46, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You may have a point because the second dictionary definition of a weapon on Webster’s is “a means of contending against another” [9]. I am still not a fan of overuse of metaphors, similes and especially catachresis though per WP:TONE Wafflefrites (talk) 22:50, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Road to Famine: Israeli Law Prof. Neve Gordon on Israel’s History of Weaponizing Food Access in Gaza Selfstudier (talk) 23:07, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just because something is normalized doesn’t make it right. It still appears to be catachresis. Anyways, the “Weaponization” discussion is probably more useful over at Weaponization of antisemitism, which I haven’t decided to join yet. Wafflefrites (talk) 23:28, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, its well sourced, we do that on WP, go by sources. Strange that we wouldn't identify the guilty party here, the only thing that would result in there being no famine is if substantial amounts of aid get into Gaza pronto, something that could have been done long ago but Israel won't cooperate with UNRWA so.... Selfstudier (talk) 23:37, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Many reliable sources describe the event as a "starvation event". We can change it to Gaza Strip Starvation. In common parlance, famine and starvation both mean when many people die because they lack food. DenverCoder19 (talk) 22:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
EDIT: USAID has in fact declared a famine. [10] DenverCoder19 (talk) 22:28, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source says “in parts of northern Gaza”, which is why we had previous discussions on the talk page about prepositions and splitting hairs. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:47, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not a declaration. Official statement remains unchanged, and as per your source provided, White House has affirmed only that it considers famine "imminent" as per the original report. Mistamystery (talk) 23:18, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What the WH thinks is irrelevant. They also think that Israel has not breached humanitarian law. Selfstudier (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Its actually called "Acute food insecurity" (officialese) and there are five grades of that ((1) Minimal/None, (2) Stressed, (3) Crisis, (4) Emergency, (5) Catastrophe/Famine), Gaza being currently at between 4 and/or 5 so calling it food insecurity is just euphemistic POV hogwash. Selfstudier (talk) 22:55, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To me this just proves that the term "food security" should be here in the title, and not "famine". Galamore (talk) 05:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not all famines reach phase 5 - please see my comment at Talk:Gaza_Strip_famine#IPC_phase below for two major examples. HenryMP02 (talk) 17:12, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move, famine is way too premature. There were concerns it may develop into famine, peaking a month ago, but since then the supply has improved [11][12], and while there is still some risk it is much lower now than a month ago. It never got to an actual famine. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 04:23, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Whatever other editors think of this conversation as a whole, this is not a good reason to move the article. None of the literature says that the risk of famine is subsiding; absent a major change in the trajectory of the war such as a lasting ceasefire, sources agree that it's only a matter of time before famine sets in, if it hasn't already. Unbandito (talk) 05:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Confused by the statement while there is still some risk it is much lower now than a month ago. There is absolutely no evidence to support that claim. David M. Satterfield, the U.S. envoy for humanitarian issues, said on 23 April 2024 that despite Israeli efforts to increase aid, The risk of famine throughout war-devastated Gaza, especially in the north, is "very high". CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 14:34, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move, famine is WP:CRYSTAL, since sources say it is imminent, not ongoing. we should replace it with another term, and and the term "food security", judging from the IPC definition, makes much more sense. Galamore (talk) 05:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the page is moved, how about food emergency or food crisis? I believe "food insecurity" is far too weak a term. Take a look at the titles in the source list: I see "starvation", "deadly" "struggle", "famine", "catastrophe", "disaster", "intense", "brink of implosion", "hunger crisis", "desperate", "clamour".
It's about connotation. When I read "food insecurity", I might think "people are hungry from time to time due to shortages". When I read "food crisis", I will understand "there is a major hunger problem". From what I have read, the second is accurate: it's "extreme suffering and mortality".
It's also about aligning with sources. "Insecurity" does not actually appear to be the WP:COMMONNAME. Most sources talk about it as a crisis or emergency. Also, the IPC source which was used by the requester to show famine has not been formally declared shows Gaza in Phase 4 (Emergency). HenryMP02 (talk) 15:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is also as of March, the situation worsened since then according to all accounts, we should look at the projection (pending an official update) which shows Northern Gaza in Phase 5. Selfstudier (talk) 15:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A projection in absence of an affirmative claim and consensus about the current situation is not an acceptable source for an article’s title. Zanahary (talk) 16:28, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure it is, it's explained in a reliable source (want more?), which is more than can be said for "food insecurity". Selfstudier (talk) 16:29, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It’s predicted in a reliable source. We can’t make articles about events today that were predicted yesterday and are as yet not confirmed. Zanahary (talk) 19:55, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can, read the article. Selfstudier (talk) 20:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, I oppose the move. The IPC source showed 30% of Gaza's population in famine (phase 5) in the old 15 period (Feb - 15 March), and projects 50% of the population in famine in the current period (16 March - 15 July). No formal declaration of famine has been made is actually misleading. HenryMP02 (talk) 17:53, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Other organizations such as the Center for Strategic and International Studies are calling it a famine [13]. There is, however, the problem of a lack of reporting from inside Gaza to document the situation there. Hires an editor (talk) 00:32, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for the reasons stated above. The situation in Gaza is far worse from typical "food insecurity," such as the article about food insecurity. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 18:01, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In line with concerns raised above re: lack of broad declaration of famine, what say you re: alternate title proposal Gaza food crisis? Mistamystery (talk) 18:19, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: too euphemistic and per discussion below: #IPC phase which illustrates that Phase 5 is not required to have an article on the topic. Alternatively, move to Famine in the Gaza Strip, in line with Famine in Yemen (2016–present), for example. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move. Per nominator. The sources like IPC and CSIS talk about "imminent famine" or the "risk of famine." The chief economist at the United Nations World Food Programme acknowledged increased food deliveries and said that "it is too early to say that looming famine is no longer a risk" so it may no longer be looming, fortunately [14]. A possible alternative could be Food crisis in the Gaza Strip. Alaexis¿question? 09:12, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as a gross WP:EUPHEMISM – "food insecurity" is what you might call a shortage of fresh vegetables, or a sharp inflation in the price of wheat: here, for a man-made starvation event, it would just be white-washing and entirely imprecise. Also oppose on concision grounds (obviously), since the proposed title is gargantuan and the furthest possible imagining from concise. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move, yes, famine is WP:CRYSTAL. This should have been done weeks ago. I get that the situation is horrific and upsetting. That is true. But... that does mean Wikipedia can POV push. This conflict has shown how vulnerable Wikipedia is to bias and having this page exist with this title for over a month as one of the few English language sources declaring the "Gaza Strip Famine" is a shame for Wikipedia as an institution. I write that as someone with tens of thousands of edits who cares deeply about Wikipedia and has contributed countless hours toward making it better.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 17:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Monopoly31121993(2): It may have been too concurrently timed with your own post, but HenryMP02 has actually linked the live IPC data showing that more than 50% of the Gaza Strip is in famine, so it's not crystal. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Famine is imminent." That's what the page says. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 18:13, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Monopoly31121993(2): Which means? Don't ask me how the IPC goes about it's final, ponderously deliberate declaration phase. But as you can see from the data, 50% are in phase 5, which is famine, by the IPC's own metrics. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:26, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The article doesn't say it's a famine. It says clearly, "Famine is imminent" which means the current title "Gaza Strip Famine" is WP:CRYSTAL. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 18:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Only if a formal IPC declaration were the only consideration. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:59, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's your source! You provided it as your evidence that famine was taking place. I'm simply quoting your source which DOESN'T SAY what you claim it does. In fact it states, "Famine is imminent." Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 18:54, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It is evidence, we are currently in the forecast period where they say there is famine, they may declare it officially when they get around to doing a new report but we need not wait for it here. Selfstudier (talk) 18:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If famine is imminent, it sounds like the page should be called Gaza Strip famine. If the risk of famine were subsiding, this line of thinking would make sense, but experts agree it is very much not subsiding. Unbandito (talk) 13:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If famine is imminent, then this article should not NOW be titled "Gaza Strip famine". It can be changed to Gaza Strip famine when the meaning of the word imminent changes to mean is already happening. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 18:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Famine is imminent theoretically, in the sense that no-one has officially declared one, but an official declaration is not needed for us to make a title like Gaza Strip famine if sources are speaking about famine. Selfstudier (talk) 18:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move: the clear majority of reliable sources are not (yet) unequivocally applying the word "famine" to this situation, instead using phrases like "imminent" or "near-famine" or accusing Israel of intending to cause a "famine". Since the clear majority of reliable sources aren't unequivocally calling it a "famine", Wikipedia should not be calling it that in an article title either. Arguments below about "IPC phase", "Food supplies data", etc, are digging into the substantive definition of "famine", when the real question for Wikipedia is not how it is defined substantively, it is how the majority of reliable sources describe it (as of the time of writing). If in the future the situation worsens (let us hope not), and reliable sources begin to describe it as a "famine" unequivocally, then the article can always be moved back to the current title SomethingForDeletion (talk) 23:29, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Majority of sources when and in what time frame? Here's the CSIS outlining how the conditions of famine are in place, but there is not necessarily any immediate prospect of famine declaration, for administrative and bureaucratic reasons: "In the case of Gaza, despite evidence that famine is present today, leaders may be waiting for a future IPC assessment, presumably concluding that famine conditions have been in place for a period of time, before making an official declaration of famine." Famine in Gaza. It's unclear why Wikipedia should specifically ignore the sources that say the conditions of famine exist in favour of the sources that simply remain undecided, unsure or reluctant (maybe politically) to use the language short of a formal declaration. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Sources are unequivocal that there was a famine in Gaza, specifically, in Northern Gaza, which is in Gaza:

Strong oppose there is an ongoing famine in the northern part of the Gaza Strip and a looming famine elsewhere. This requested move into a euphemism goes against all RS which are explicitly mentioned the word "famine." I would support Famine in the Gaza Strip as a more accurate name. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Just wanted to share some selections from WP:CRYSTAL that are relevant to the topic at hand.
"All articles about anticipated events must be verifiable, and the subject matter must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred. It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced." This is what the article is currently doing.
"It is not appropriate for editors to insert their own opinions or analyses." The article hasn't had this issue.
"Predictions, speculation, forecasts and theories stated by reliable, expert sources or recognized entities in a field may be included," This is what the current article is doing.
"though editors should be aware of creating undue bias to any specific point-of-view." If the article has done this, it warrants better editing, not a name change.
I think that many of the editors invoking WP:CRYSTAL in this discussion need to read it more carefully. The discussion among experts about the food crisis in Gaza is a discussion about famine. WP:CRYSTAL says this article's title has merit. Unbandito (talk) 13:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+1 Selfstudier (talk) 13:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
None of these selections say that an article’s title may refer to that which is not reliably confirmed to have occurred yet. Zanahary (talk) 14:49, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is confirmation in your mind? Numerous sources have already called it a famine; just not all sources, and not yet the IPC. What else is there to confirm? What is the metric? Is there a particular number of starved humans that we're expecting to see evidenced? What are the goalposts here exactly? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:09, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Famine in Gaza
"Global leaders have yet to issue a formal declaration of famine in Gaza, despite evidence that Palestinians in the North Gaza and Gaza Governorates are suffering from famine today"
The only question remaining is whether sufficient aid will reach the affected in Gaza in time to prevent many more deaths. Selfstudier (talk) 17:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus would suffice. The designation is controversial; Wikipedia should not pick a side in absence of settled consensus. Zanahary (talk) 18:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's what we're doing here, albeit with some canvassing going on. It's not a designation, it's just a title, one could equally entitle it Weaponization of food by Israel in Gaza or Starvation in Gaza caused by Israeli restrictions on aid and the sourcing for either is plentiful. Selfstudier (talk) 18:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The guardian (19 March 2024) writes: "Palestinians are dying from hunger. (...) The question is no longer whether (...) but how many will do so [= starve to death]". How do we bring humanity to its senses (= Israel, USA, European Union, the rest of the world seems much less crazy in this affair), if we shrink from calling a duck a duck? --Corriebertus (talk) 05:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - under the WP:CRITERIA of naturalness, recognizability and concision. naturalness + recognizability: While we would technically be justified in renaming this to Gaza Strip acute food insecurity event, readers familiar with but non-expert in the subject, and readers searching for the topic, are more likely to look for "famine" than "acute food insecurity", and Gaza Strip acute food insecurity event would sound bureaucratic and euphemistic. concision: We don't need to distinguish this article from another epoch of food insecurity in Gaza that was formally declared as a famine by the IPC, so there's no ambiguity risk in the title. Boud (talk) 08:47, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose per WP:COMMONNAME attested in multiple sources. I'd also be fine with the alternative version Famine in the Gaza Strip.  Comment: Those evoking WP:CRYSTAL seem to misunderstand what that policy is about. Wikipedia routinely includes concepts publicly discussed in reliable sources even if they are still hypothetical – e.g., Frexit, Hungarian withdrawal from the European Union, Danish withdrawal from the European Union, Korean reunification, and countless others. An article about an impending famine certainly does not violate our policies, even when titled "famine". — kashmīrī TALK 11:34, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IPC phase[edit]

  • I would just like to a comment about the IPC phase classification. I don't think Phase 5 is the be-all-end-all for describing something as a famine in an article title. For example, the Famine in Yemen (2016–present) is Phase 4. The same goes for the Famine in northern Ethiopia (2020–present). Neither reached Phase 5. Check out their sourcing. I think you will see similarities. HenryMP02 (talk) 16:59, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly, walks like a duck, looks like a duck, it is a duck. Selfstudier (talk) 17:02, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There’s a whole class of sources, from NGOs to governments to editorial bodies, who have the job of identifying ducks, in this case. Wikipedia is not one of them. Zanahary (talk) 19:53, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe that’s why those are titled “Famine in…”. None of those places have been issued a formal declaration of famine yet. The only one in recent years to have a formal declaration is the 2017 South Sudan famine. I think the 2017 South Sudan article is a good model to use for this article when/if the famine is officially declared. The Sudan article has a background section explaining the IPC ratings and the famine declaration.Wafflefrites (talk) 17:43, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't object to Famine in the Gaza Strip, to me it means the same thing. Selfstudier (talk) 17:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I also like how Mistamystery put “during the Israel-Hamas war” in her title. Because “Famine in the Gaza Strip” could also mean all the historical cases of famine in Gaza, which is a very ancient place. Wafflefrites (talk) 18:00, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If only Hamas members were starving that would be fine. Selfstudier (talk) 18:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree Zanahary (talk) 19:52, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, according even to the old IPC evaluation, 30% of Gaza's population were in famine (phase 5). Look at the legend at the bottom. [15]. The projection for the current period shows 50% of the population in famine. HenryMP02 (talk) 17:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Food supplies data[edit]

I'd like introduce another data source which can be helpful even if it by itself cannot tell us whether there is famine. Here you can find the daily numbers of trucks with food that entered Gaza. According to Al-Jazeera (not known for its sympathy to Israel) at least 100 trucks are needed daily to cover urgent needs [16]. In April 2024 (1-27) 190 trucks entered Gaza every day, on average, of which the majority brought food supplies. Fortunately, the numbers are trending upwards, the April numbers are higher than the March ones, which are higher than those in the beginning of the conflict. Alaexis¿question? 09:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Straightforward to find current (not last December, the situation is much worse now) sources saying it is not enough, even at 400 a day.NYT yesterday "Aid Flows to Gaza Are Rising, U.N. Says, but More Is Needed" And trucks entering is only part of the problem, the aid needs to be distributed, preferably without the distributors getting killed in the process. Selfstudier (talk) 10:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And that's the best spin the NYT can put on it as the US' (most?) "sophisticated ideological weapon".[17] Iskandar323 (talk) 11:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except for this article doesn't say that more than 400 are needed to avert famine. Alaexis¿question? 12:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
True, Israel might be lying about the number, shocker. Selfstudier (talk) 13:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
500 trucks entered Gaza pre-war and that flow was already an intentionally reduced number to impose a calorie-restricted regime on Gaza, so no, obviously even 500 trucks of combined food/aid would not be enough to reverse famine when combined with the logistical nightmare and destruction of agricultural infrastructure. This has been said time and time again by people like Michael Fakhri, the UN special rapporteur.[18] All meaningless rambling to the contrary is counterfactual propaganda. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:45, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Selfstudier and Iskandar. The December AJ article cited here does not reflect the current reality or humanitarian aid needs on the ground. As the World Food Program deputy executive director stated on 25 April 2024: "We are still heading toward famine. We haven't seen the paradigm shift that is needed to avert a famine." CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 16:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I used the AJ article only as the source for the claim that 100 trucks daily are needed to cover daily needs. The deliveries data come from the UNRWA report. Alaexis¿question? 12:39, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you share your source for the "of which the majority brought food supplies" part?
Taking a look at the December Al Jazeera article you linked, it references a World Food Programme paper that said

Since the beginning of the crisis, 3,099 trucks, of which 1,249 carrying food assistance have reached Gaza. However, to provide food assistance to the affected population of Gaza, 100 trucks with food would be required to pass every day.

Given that only about 40% of the trucks at that time had carried food, the breakdown between food and non-food trucks is important to consider.
Also, please note that the WFP report was from 6 December 2023. It has been 144 days since then, and agriculture has been disrupted.
Take a look at this slide deck from Feb 7 by the UN Food and Agriculture Organization [19]. Slide 5 shows major damage to cropland throughout the area. Also please consider the seasonality of crops and interruption of farm labor due to displacement. The point is, the people's needs today are likely greater than they were 144 days ago, so I don't think you could make a strong argument just from saying there are more than 100 trucks today. HenryMP02 (talk) 17:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could you share your source for the "of which the majority brought food supplies" part?
This is from the UNRWA report [20], Trucks per group chart. Alaexis¿question? 12:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose: to anything that removes the word famine, using words like insecurity or crisis downplay the severity of what is happening. John Cummings (talk) 19:25, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lede[edit]

@Unbandito in response to your recent revert, declaration of famine is not a matter of opinion. The two most prominently cited sources on the page affirm that a famine, while "imminent" or "looming" has not been declared, with one clearly stating that despite their strong opinion on the matter, they consider declaration to be the exclusive domain of global authorities.

CSIS 4/11/24: Global leaders have yet to issue a formal declaration of famine in Gaza, despite evidence that Palestinians in the North Gaza and Gaza Governorates are suffering from famine today.

ISP 3/18/24: "Famine is imminent as 1.1 million people, half of Gaza, experience catastrophic food insecurity."

WP:CRYSTALBALL is crystal clear in its policy: "impending", "imminent", and "looming" items are just that. If there is widespread declaration from global authorities on the declaration of famine, then the title and lede should reflect that. Despite the severity of the situation, it is very troubling that this page has become a collecting pond for general news on food insecurity in Gaza under the false guise of "The Gaza Strip Famine" that has neither been popularly named, acknowledged, or declared.

And replying to @CarmenEsparzaAmoux, you created this page on 1/16/24 with the declaration that "The Gaza Strip is experiencing a severe famine as a result of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war" with zero accompanying citations stating such a public declaration or consensus had been made or achieved at that juncture, with only one expert opinion (the Chief Economist at the WFP) using the phrase "famine or catastrophic hunger".

The article since (as stated above) became a collecting pond of general food insecurity items under the auspice of an undeclared famine, and as a result, as now rocketed to the top of google search results in what may be construed as an instance of WP:CITOGENESIS. You are correct: it is mostly likely to be the most googled search result, except it appears that it was titled with that in mind, and has now skewed the entire article instead of covering the evolving situation with patience and attention to the facts.

This is a serious WP:POVTITLE issue that now appears to have real world consequences and impact, and it is in our tasked responsibility as Wikipedia editors to keep cool, temper our suspicions, and stick to the facts as they are reported.

In this regard, pending the result of the RN, I am recommending the lede be re-written as follows:

Food insecurity in the Gaza Strip during the Israel-Hamas War has created the “highest number of people facing catastrophic hunger” ever recorded on the IPC scale, with a famine in all or part of the territory declared by some experts to be "imminent."[1][2][3][4]
There is a widespread scarcity of essential supplies, resulting from Israeli airstrikes and the ongoing blockade of the Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt, which includes restrictions on humanitarian aid.[5][6][7] Airstrikes have destroyed food infrastructure, such as bakeries, mills, and food stores, and due to the blockade of aid, which has triggered a severe food crisis for more than half a million Gazans and is part of a broader humanitarian crisis in the Strip.[a]

Update: per this conversation, the lede has been updated as follows:

As a result of Israeli airstrikes and the ongoing blockade of the Gaza Strip by Israel, which includes restrictions on humanitarian aid, Gazans are facing starvation and famine. Airstrikes have destroyed food infrastructure, such as bakeries, mills, and food stores, and there is a widespread scarcity of essential supplies due to the blockade of aid.[c] This has caused starvation for more than half a million Gazans and is part of a broader humanitarian crisis in the Strip. It is the “highest number of people facing catastrophic hunger” ever recorded on the IPC scale, and is widely expected to be the most intense man-made famine since the Second World War.

Some further adjustments to be made, but I consider the change to be sufficient per outlined concerns. Mistamystery (talk) 19:50, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The World Food Programme has been warning that Gaza is on the "brink" of famine since November 2023; WFP head Cindy McCain stated on 26 November, "First of all, the — the bottom line here is that we need to get more aid in as — as has been said, we’re looking at … possibly being on the brink of famine in this region." By December 2023, the FAO stated, "79 percent of the population is in Emergency (IPC Phase 4) or Catastrophe (IPC Phase 5)." My point is that this has been a catastrophe unfolding in slow motion, with experts warning of its deterioration every day. Amongst humanitarian groups, it appears accepted that famine is now present in at least northern Gaza. Famine is a technical term with powerful connotations, but it is also a lagging indicator and requires humanitarian access to regions in the Strip that are currently inaccessible. I agree that we should "stay cool" and follow the reporting, while being cognizant of the limitations that humanitarian organizations are warning about regarding the declaration of technical classifications.
I'm also not sure that the article is so much a "collecting pond of general food insecurity items under the auspice of an undeclared famine" rather than an article explaining the various aspects of the food crisis (background, variation in impact based on geography, impacts on various groups, etc.) which together comprise the larger situation. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 20:30, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
USAID has confirmed the famine: [21] DenverCoder19 (talk) 22:30, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I absolutely appreciate the need for active and detailed coverage on a devastating yet ever-evolving situation. But we are not here to influence the cycle, just summarize and report.
The labeling of the article as a famine was incredibly premature and set into motion something we now must address reasonably. Again, to reinforce the argument as above, if there is consensus amongst authoritative sources that the threshold of famine has been reached, the name change should happen immediately. But we must take note at the language so many of these sources have deployed and respect the fine details...if a person saying "imminent" truly believed a famine was "underway", they would say so. But this language appears over and over for good reason, and we need to stay on top of as it develops, not call in advance.
Let's reset the goal posts to a more reasonable interim lede (as proposed above or something similar), and we can take it from there. Would appreciate any constructive thoughts, edits notes, otherwise would like move ahead and insert the revised lede shortly. Mistamystery (talk) 23:06, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its actually called "Acute food insecurity" (officialese) and there are five grades of that ((1) Minimal/None, (2) Stressed, (3) Crisis, (4) Emergency, (5) Catastrophe/Famine), Gaza being currently at between 4 and/or 5 so calling it food insecurity is just hogwash. Selfstudier (talk) 22:55, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It didn't receive a ton of coverage, but in its March 2024 interim ruling, the ICJ stated, "The court observes that Palestinians in Gaza are no longer facing only a risk of famine (...) but that famine is setting in." CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 23:23, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still speculation, I think, but according to the ToI, "The first source said the major focus of the suspected ICC allegations will be that Israel "deliberately starved Palestinians in Gaza,". Selfstudier (talk) 16:57, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Imminent famine in northern Gaza is 'entirely man-made disaster': Guterres". UN News. United Nations. Retrieved 5 April 2024.
  2. ^ de Waal, Alex. "We are about to witness in Gaza the most intense famine since the second world war". The Guardian. Retrieved 5 April 2024.
  3. ^ Chang, Ailsa; Mohammad, Linah; Jarenwattananon, Patrick. "As famine looms in Gaza, we look at why modern famines are a 'man-made' disaster". NPR. Retrieved 5 April 2024.
  4. ^ Nolen, Stephanie. "Looming Starvation in Gaza Shows Resurgence of Civilian Sieges in Warfare". The New York Times. Retrieved 5 April 2024.
  5. ^ Cite error: The named reference We are about to witness was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. ^ "The Guardian view on famine in Gaza: a human-made catastrophe". The Guardian. Retrieved 22 March 2024.
  7. ^ "Imminent famine in northern Gaza is 'entirely man-made disaster': Guterres | UN News". news.un.org. 2024-03-18. Retrieved 2024-04-03.
  8. ^ "Israel is starving Gaza". B'Tselem. 8 January 2024. Archived from the original on 13 February 2024. Retrieved 17 January 2024.

Sources for "famine"[edit]

I'm collecting a list of sources that state that famine has begun and I would appreciate if you want to add more here.

Per the IPC report, there is already famine in Northern Gaza, even according to the IPC definition. That is enough for an article that discusses famine(s) inside the Gaza Strip, under the title "Famine in the Gaza Strip" or "Gaza Strip Famine". If there is a famine in Kazakhstan but not in every province, it is still titled "Kazakh famine".

If that weren't enough, to quote and highlight a good comment by another editor:

Other than being a technical term defined by WFP for its own internal purposes, the English word famine also has a common, widely understood meaning, and that is of extreme scarcity of food. That's the primary meaning, and we're perfectly within our policies to use the term as an article title here.

Moreover, we shouldn't change the title, but if we did, the next step would be "man-made starvation in the Gaza Strip" DenverCoder19 (talk) 22:50, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can put that in the RM, but the phrase "man-made starvation in the Gaza Strip" in quotes returned 0 Google results. Also the entire Wikipedia article would then need to be rewritten so that it focuses on the man-made starvation aspect rather than the more general “Starvation in Gaza during the Israel-Hamas war”. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:57, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Officially it would be Emergency and/or Catastrophic/famine conditions in the Gaza Strip caused by Israel but Weaponization is so much more to the point. Selfstudier (talk) 23:03, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weaponization, besides being fringe, is also vague and not very illustrative. The vast majority of sources do not use that verbiage and do not discuss the state of hunger in the Gaza strip in terms of an Israeli "weaponization". Zanahary (talk) 05:26, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lots of sources, others call use as weapon of war, same thing. Selfstudier (talk) 10:42, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sources are unequivocal that the famine results from Israeli destruction of Gaza, and from blocking aid. Moreover, there are are many reliable sources that this is part of a deliberate policy by Israel. DenverCoder19 (talk) 00:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Accuracy tag[edit]

Adding tag, pending resolution of above RM and lede conversations. Mistamystery (talk) 16:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Accuracy has nothing to do with title discussions. This looks like another "I'm not getting my way so I'm going to tag" affairs. According to that tag the entire article has factual accuracy problems, kindly identify which sections in the body have the alleged factual problems and tag those only. Then explain precisely what the alleged factual accuracy problems are.Selfstudier (talk) 16:25, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As outlined above ("RM and lede conversations") this is not merely a title dispute but a general accuracy matter as the entire article has been shaped under unclear assertions for months that a famine has been established to the point of common naming, when there is no reliable consensus on the matter, nor common name.
Also, humbly requesting the personally directed aspersion above be stricken from the conversation. Mistamystery (talk) 16:31, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Titles are dealt with by RMs not by accuracy tags, why am I having to repeat this? Waiting for specifics on the accuracy otherwise the tag will be removed. Selfstudier (talk) 16:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here you go:
"The Gaza Strip famine is an ongoing famine in the Gaza Strip amid the Israel-Hamas War." - no such declared famine, nor commonly known by that name, by any consensus of RS. Mistamystery (talk) 16:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That it? Selfstudier (talk) 16:41, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's the headline for the entire article. I think the "it" of it is more than sufficient.
Also - will you please strike your "I'm not getting my way comment". It is not true, and I find it the aspersion uncivil. Mistamystery (talk) 16:52, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, fixed, remove tag, please. (and that comment is not addressed to you personally) Selfstudier (talk) 16:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your edit in the lede is both expert and appreciated. I will remove the tag.
And re: comment - it's our second such "debate" over tag placements in as many days, so while I will take you at your word, please note the proximity of events and why I would interpret it this way. Mistamystery (talk) 17:02, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't disagree more and this is tendentious editing.
Sources are unequivocal that there is famine in Northern Gaza. Northern Gaza is in Gaza. Therefore, there is a famine inside Gaza. DenverCoder19 (talk) 00:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DenverCoder19 Sorry, I reverted your recent edits [22] back to the previous version. This isn't out of antagonism toward the content; I think there is a strong case to be made for using "famine" in the lead, especially for Northern Gaza (check out the discussion regarding the page move above). However, you essentially went against the provisional consensus of these two editors (Mistamystery and Selfstudier). The debate needs to happen in the talk page. Check out Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute. You can't just re-add the disputed content unilaterally, but you can try to establish a different consensus. HenryMP02 (talk) 04:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]


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