Talk:Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective

Spoiler

Full character info for Yomiel is: The man in red who is assumed to be Sissel throughout most of the game. Ten years before the game began, when he took Lynne hostage whilst escaping from Jowd, he was killed by a shard from an asteroid which gave his spirit ghostly powers and kept his body fresh. His powers of the dead allow him to take control of living creatures as well as objects, as such he is able to manipulate his own body, but he lacks Sissel's ability to go back in time. Depressed by the suicide his fiancée committed shortly after his own death, Yomiel decided to team up with a foreign organisation in order to get revenge on the people who ruined his life, namely Jowd, Lynne and Cabanela.

This is too much of a spoiler so the main article is better off containing less info. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanimothWiki (talk • contribs) 23:17, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

WP does not concern itself whether something is a spoiler or not; if it can be verified, it can be included. --MASEM (t) 23:19, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The spoilers are completely unnecessary for the Wikipedia page of this game. It should be easy to write a character bio for each of the main characters without talking about what happens to them in the game. For such things, a section like Plot would be better. 62.194.216.181 (talk) 19:37, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, WP does not care what a spoiler is, and we discuss plot and characters at the level of detail to be comprehensive - eg we have to reveal who Sissel eventually is, for example. --MASEM (t) 19:43, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Which is done in the Plot section of the page, where it should belong. A Character section (unless it has its own page) should not include the twists that are revealed in-game. While I agree with you that the level of detail about the plot and characters have to be comprehensive, they should belong under the Plots section, where they already are. 62.194.216.181 (talk) 20:38, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Plot and characters are the same thing (Personally, I don't think we even need the characters section but that's a different issue), in the sense that you should assume they contain spoilers. --MASEM (t) 22:46, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Is putting "Sissel" in the Gameplay section and opening sentences of the Plot section a spoiler?

You don't know his name when you start the game. Should we remove this from the Gameplay section by putting something like, "You play a recently killed man?" Or something similar?

And for the plot, should we mention that he doesn't start with a name? Again, make him a nameless murdered victim? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goatlegs (talk • contribs) 15:55, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

We don't hide spoilers on WP. We do come to learn he calls himself Sissel midgame, and imply that he lacks memories when he starts, but otherwise there's no reason to hide this. --MASEM (t) 17:19, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

iOS NA version possible out tomorrow

Best wait until Feb 2 (tomorrow) to confirm. [1] . --MASEM (t) 14:54, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Animated clip

The article has an animated GIF showing a cutscene (?) clip, to illustrate that one review praised the game's "buttery smooth animation". Is this really significant enough to pass image usage policy's recommendation that animated GIFs only be used "sparingly"? Perhaps the GIF isn't doing it justice, but to me this doesn't look any different from any well-drawn pixel animation from the last ten years. Many games and films are praised for their animation, but I can't imagine we ever really need to illustrate that to the reader. Am I missing a reason to make an exception here? --McGeddon (talk) 16:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The image use policy you linked states to use inline animated GIFs sparingly, unless the image has a very small file size. I don't know what constitutes "very small" but the GIF in question is 68kb, which should be negligible even for basic modern internet speeds. According to Characters_in_Ghost_Trick:_Phantom_Detective#Design, there is a significant amount of positive critical reception for the animation alone in this game, regardless of your or my personal opinions on the quality. The main article's reception section should summarize the reception mentioned in the Character article so an illustration of that should be included here. I think the reader gains a significantly better understanding of the style of animation and the character design as a result of this particular GIF than any combination of text and still image ever could. Axem Titanium (talk) 16:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

The way I read WP:IUP, "sparingly" goes for all animations, with the static link being one suggested way to cut down on them. ("Inline animations should be used sparingly; a static image with a link to the animation is preferred unless the animation has a very small file size.") An animation is much better than no image at all, here, but I'm not sure it's significantly better than a static image of the same character - particularly when a reader looking at the mobile site, or a physical book or printout, will just see half a character frozen at one side of the first frame.

I hadn't realised that the praise for the animation was anything more than one review quote, or even that the "Characters in Ghost Trick" article existed! Its "Concept and creation" and "Design" sections seem like they belong back in the main article, as they're more about the game's development than the nature of the characters. --McGeddon (talk) 16:37, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

When one creates a page about characters in a work of fiction, including concept, creation, and reception about them on the list is preferrable as to make the notability of the list of characters better. This may mean some duplication between the game and the list, but this is preferrable to having none of that information on the character list page. --MASEM (t) 16:40, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not super satisfied with the way info is split currently between the characters page and the main article. Might have to bump this guy up on the priority list! :) Axem Titanium (talk) 18:19, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Soundtrack and Character list/link

Someone should add a section to the page about the game's soundtrack, similar to the section in 999: Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors. I don't know if it has an official page in English that can be used as a reference, but in the meantime, there's this page with a tracklist (though it appears to have taken out the formatting of the original) and some publishing info, and this Ghost Trick wiki page which retains the original formatting of the track titles. --V2Blast (talk) 06:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Found a VGMdb page for the soundtrack as well, with tracklists in both the original Japanese and English translations. --V2Blast (talk) 06:52, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

...Also, there needs to be an actual link to the Characters in Ghost Trick page other than just in the template. It's not at all obvious that the page exists. Either there should be a very short character list with a "main article" template/link at the top of it, or just a template/link to the page at the top of another section (like "summary").

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Metacritic User score

Not sure if relevant but it is the highest ranked game of all time based on user scores on Metacritic: https://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/score/userscore/all/all/filtered?sort=desc 79.138.18.89 (talk) 16:22, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

User scores are not included on WP (since they can be gamed) unless noted by reliable sources. Masem (t) 16:44, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Switch Port Announced

A Switch Port was announced in the most recent Nintendo Direct 69.221.139.7 (talk) 22:26, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

RE Engine

Does anyone know if the remaster port is using the RE Engine or not? I heard some mentions of it but I needed to know for sure. 155.4.7.249 (talk) 04:42, 15 June 2023 (UTC) Never mind, I found the source.--155.4.7.249 (talk) 19:05, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Consolidating review infoboxes

Should we combine the DS/iOS and PS4/XONE/NS/PC review infoboxes? The HD remaster isn't actually subtitled "Remastered," so I think it makes more sense to consolidate them to clean up the "Reception" section. Other video games with remastered/enhanced versions and only one review infobox include Marvel's Spider-Man, Yakuza 5, Assassin's Creed Rogue, Far Cry 3, DmC: Devil May Cry, Metro: Last Light, etc. — hoopder^® 21:34, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

But you see, Destructoid, Eurogamer, among others, do another review on top of the original release. How would you deal with that? MilkyDefer 04:58, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Would it make sense to keep whichever version of the review is older? We can keep the new publications that reviewed the HD remaster (PC Gamer, Polygon, Siliconera, etc.), but get rid of the reviews from publications that already covered the DS/iOS version, like Destructoid's or Eurogamer's. — hoopder^® 12:41, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: The Night Watch (talk · contribs) 19:41, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll take this one on. If you don't hear back from my by Saturday, please ping me. The Night Watch (talk) 19:41, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Additional comments from MilkyDefer

Great, I am always waiting for someone else to pick this up, so that I will not be the main reviewer.

• To start with, I noticed a sourcing problem for some time. The article claims that the creators referenced Wordsworth's Book of Words during creating the game. If my memory served right, that's only the interviewer's speculation, not fact.
• Also I would like to mention that the current prose of the review section is perhaps pretty bad. It's just piling up quotations.

I, the GA contributor for this article in zhwiki, is always at your service. MilkyDefer 13:44, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

• Thank you MilkyDefer! If you have any further comments, don't be afraid to list them here. The Night Watch (talk) 20:16, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I do have some questions concerning the Metacritic user score and sale figures on Steam. Are they (or could they) ever be reliable? MilkyDefer 05:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

No, the Metacritic user scores are unreliable. The Steam sale scores are noted by a source I do not recognize and Steam Spy, which the WP:VG/S notes to be an unreliable and should never be used to directly to support sales numbers. The Night Watch (talk) 20:27, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

First Look

• The first paragraph of gameplay is entirely uncited, you need to review the paragraphs and place citations for all gameplay mechanics.
• The plot section is too long. At 717 words of prose, WP:VG/PLOT encourages us to leave it at 700 words or fewer.
• The development and reception sections heavily use quotations that could easily be paraphrased; there is specific guidance against using too many quotes when the material could be rewritten and paraphrased.
• There is some trouble with wikilinking, which I will review later. Overall, do not link to subjects that you think that an average reader will be familiar with (e.g. corpse, submarine, spirit, surprise party etc.) I also see a few WP:DUPLINKS. Generally, a link should appear only twice in an article: once in the lead, and once in the article body itself.
• In regards to sales, MOS:VG encourages us to limit this information to the debut sales figures and the cumulative/most recent figures.

This is what I have right now, will take a deeper look later today. The Night Watch (talk) 20:16, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

First Look point #4: I've removed a good number of the common subject wikilinks. QuietCicada (talk) 04:51, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I personally think just a little 17 words above the threshold is not so much a thing. This game is known for its story, having many loose ends yet still very closely related. I sincerely cannot imagine a concise plot summary without leaving main story points behind. MilkyDefer 05:13, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

You could easily remove some details to keep the plot smaller and easier to read. For example, you could remove the sentence about "Sissel uses his powers to free Jowd from prison, though Cabanela soon recaptures him." as it has little significance, and just skip to the part where Sissel proves that the mayor's daughter is safe at home and Jowd is saved from execution. Also who tells Sissel and Lynne about the manipulator? Jowd or the Minister? And does Sissel undo Missle's death or Cabanela's? The whole plot section needs a good copyedit and word count reduction because I find it to be somewhat confusing without a re-read. The Night Watch (talk) 01:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok I see that you have not played the game. I understand that it may need copyediting. Sissel uses his power to undo Jowd's execution, and helps Jowd jailbreak, Cabanela recaptures Jowd, gives him a GPS receiver, and takes him to the Minister. The aforementioned GPS receiver is used to track down Yomiel into the submarine. It is the Minister that was manipulated and signed the execution order, so it is the Minister that tells about the manipulator (Yomiel). Missle is killed when Kamila is kidnapped, his death is never undone because he wants to stay in its spirit form. Sissel undos Cabanela's death. Like I said nearly every bit of the story is interwined, someone may want to consult editors who have played the game if he wants to copyedit. MilkyDefer 03:38, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@Hoopderscotch, have you been seeing these comments? You were the original GA nominator so I'd be interested in seeing your personal input. Thanks, The Night Watch (talk) 19:33, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the plot will always be difficult to explain succinctly, no matter how you approach it. But I'm sure a few words can be omitted here and there to shorten it. — hoopder^® 13:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I think this article is not ready for GA yet.

• I found two instances of failed verification while checking the first few sources of the Gameplay section. The Eurogamer source does not mention moving a tray of doughnuts will give Sissel access to new areas. Since this is not an example explicitly stated in the source, it is therefore original research. I also could not find any information about Missile in the cited Kotaku source. Seeing what MilkyDefer wrote above about verification issues, I think that there might be a larger problem about what the sources are saying.
• As mentioned by MilkyDefer earlier, the Reception section is a WP:QUOTEFARM which will take some time to fix. I found a huge number of scare quotes which need to be paraphrased or removed entirely. The Development section has a similar problem with quotes, and although some great work has been done on paraphrasing it, the problem persists in Reception. All in all I think that might be too much work for a GA review.
• I'm concerned that the three animated GIFs do not meet the WP:NFCC, as they are of decent resolution and there are several of them (including two in the Gameplay section alone). I think that these points area against the criteria #3a and #3b of the NFCC, and should be removed and/or reduced in resolution

Looking at all the problems above, I think the article may need some work outside of a GA review before it can be listed. I suggest looking at a few other video game GAs and taking notes on their styles towards imaging, Reception etc before nominating again. The Night Watch (talk) 20:27, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Possible solutions for GIFs and NFCC

I am marking possible solutions like this (#) since I don't want to risk causing reply formatting problems.

File:Knight Ghost Trick.gif seems pretty useful, as it would help a reader visualize the allowed area of Sissel's movement from possessed object to possessed object, as well as Sissel's strength for Tricking objects. It could (1) perhaps be reduced in resolution a bit and maybe (2) be cut so that it ends right after the armor finishes moving.

File:Entering Ghost World Ghost Trick.gif seems to not really be showing much that wasn't already explained in the article text. It could be (3) removed, or (4) replaced with a still image of Sissel "connecting" with the character (the green line to the corpse in Ghost World mode - I don't think there's an actual name for it) to demonstrate how this applies during gameplay. (I'm not really sure about #4, I'm just leaving it here as an idea.)

File:Cabanela dance.gif is a great demonstration of those "exaggerated poses" and that "deliberate choreography and fluid motion", and cutting it short would look strange when it would loop (plus the spotlight at the end would help show the "stage play" element), so the only option I have in mind for this one would be to (5) reduce the resolution.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, @The Night Watch and @Hoopderscotch. QuietCicada (talk) 00:09, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the knight GIF is more relevant than the spirit conversation GIF, and that shortening it wouldn't take away from what it's demonstrating. Getting rid of the spirit GIF is reasonable, too. And I think the Cabanela GIF is crucial in showing the quality of the animation and the overall art direction of the game for readers who aren't familiar. — hoopder^® 18:55, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I would remove the spirit GIF and maybe cut a little bit of the time for the knight one. The Cabanela one would be good after removing some resolution. Good suggestions QuietCicada! The Night Watch (talk) 19:12, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Update: Spirit GIF removed from article, knight GIF reduced in resolution and shortened, Cabanela gif reduced in resolution and shortened by 0.06 seconds (during the spotlight at the end). Thank you both for your feedback. QuietCicada (talk) 01:11, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wingwatchers (talk · contribs) 19:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I will review this article shortly.Wingwatchers (talk) 19:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Lead

@Hoopderscotch:

• Change "who he was and why he died." to his identify and the cause of his death
  • Done.
• Removed "Direction, writing, and game design were headed by Shu Takumi, creator of the Ace Attorney franchise." from lead. The lead would flow much better without this sentence, and the only real contextual basis here is development head by Attorney and we do not care if he directed Ace Attorney because this is outside the scope of this context.
  • Done.
• Change "Players" to the player, and also do that in subsequent mentions of it; the former is generally discouraged
  • Done.
• Removed ". Gameplay is split into two sections: gathering information by navigating through the city, and saving lives by traveling back in time." unnecessary
  • Done.
• Change "Ghost Trick was positively received, with praise for its characters, art direction, animation, music, and story, while some criticized its puzzle design and traversal mechanics." to "Ghost Trick was positively received; critics praise its characters, art direction, animation, music, and story, and they criticized its puzzle design and traversal mechanics." "Some" is considered weasel words and is generally discouraged.
  • Done.
• Despite its reception, Ghost Trick was a commercial failure in Japan, leading Capcom to cite its performance as a cause for lackluster Q1 2010 revenue. There are no real connection between a games' reception and its commercial success.
• "Despite its reception, Ghost Trick was a commercial failure in Japan, leading Capcom to cite its performance as a cause for lackluster Q1 2010 revenue" Justify why it is necessary.
  • Removed "Despite its reception" so the sentence stands on its own.
• The game was nominated for several industry awards, including Game of the Year by GameSpot and Nintendo Power, and has since garnered a cult following. Again I see no connection between its awards and the formation of a cult; maybe you can change it to "The game was nominated for several industry awards, including Game of the Year by GameSpot and Nintendo Power, and it garnered a cult following." I understand exceptions can be made if you are trying to express that the former influenced the latter.
  • Done.
• "The game was formally announced at TGS 2009" Removed formally unless the game was somehow "unformally" released to justify it use
  • The game was teased in a magazine interview before its announcement at TGS 2009, so I put "formally" to avoid confusion, but I do agree that using the official announcement would make more sense.
• " An enhanced iOS port released in Japan in December 2010, and internationally in February 2012. An Android port was released exclusively on the Japanese game distribution platform G-Gee in November 2012." I am not sure anyone would find this appealing and/or relevant.
  • Should I remove this entirely or reword it? I referenced several good articles while editing this, and almost all of them included every instance of a game's release in the lead.

The first GA nomination concerns include gameplay inaccuracies, original research, and excessive quote uses. @Hoopderscotch: Have and how did you address these? Wingwatchers (talk) 22:31, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I have, yes! I apologize for not listing all the changes I made under the initial GA review page, it was the first time I'd nominated anything. The Gameplay section has been fully and accurately sourced, the instance of original research was removed, and the Reception section was completely rewritten. — hoopder^® 12:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Some of the prose and source might not be be professional but meet GA standard.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet talk 10:00, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective was designed to be culturally and chronologically ambiguous to make localization easier? Source: Destructoid
  • ALT1: ... that the Android version of Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective is now lost media? Source: 4Gamer.net, Anime News Network
  • Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by Hoopderscotch (talk). Self-nominated at 17:06, 12 October 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Article has achieved Good Article status. No issues of copyvio or plagiarism. All sources appear reliable. Hooks are both interesting and sourced. QPQ does not appear to be needed as this is the editor’s first nomination. Looks ready. Thriley (talk) 16:14, 14 October 2023 (UTC)