Talk:Harbu Darbu

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Re the "death" thing[edit]

Yeah, it was taken as a death threat internationally, so I didn't edit THAT. However, there's more nuance to the translation. Hi, I'm an Israeli internet nerd. Disclosure: Left wing (Israeli left, it's different). Meretz voter. Jewish. Trying to be as neutral as I'm able to.

The lyrics are mostly about the military getting back at - Hamas? Gaza? "F-ers rat pack coming out of their holes (tunnels), doing 'Abu Ali' (slang for trying to look intimidating through lies) (some cussing) there will be no forgiveness" and calls them "Sons of Amalek". The start specifically targets the 2000 or so terrorists of 10/7, though the following text will also mention some of the powers backing them. Then the entire song takes patriotic pride in the IDF and says that they're coming after them - a style not uncommon in that song genre.

Then, at 2:00 on the video, the final verse / outro is (note that the captions in YouTube are wrong!)
"Another X on the weapon" (a soldier's rifle gets an X on it when it has killed a terrorist, or so do rumors say. Or is that for any kills? I don't know. AFAIK it's after an American military tradition)
Then every line is followed with: "Because every dog has its day" in Arabic, though that's a common phrase in Hebrew, verbatim.
"Wait till we rain down on you, wh--res"
"anyone who planned, who SUPPORTED, who performed, who murdered" - Khalifa et al are there for supporting Hamas. Be it the truth or not, that's what the lyric insinuates.
"You're in a mess / pickle" "Have you heard?"

THEN they list anti-Israeli Middle East leaders who were part of the whole thing, and one slot has celebrities who support and justify the murders or Hamas in general. Again, in the eyes of the writers.

I understand how someone could think this calls for murder, especially if they're listed, especially if they don't speak the language and knows the nuances. Again, that's why I left the reactions section as-is. But as for the lyrics themselves, I turned the flames down.

I wrote this in that level of detail in case an editing war starts, and in case people discuss this without speaking the language. Now you have the tools to discuss it better.

For me, the song is aggressive, but it is street music style and this is a war and a retaliation for a terrible massacre. Is the type and amplitude of retaliation right? This is irrelevant to the song. The song says "let's go", not "bomb them all" and in no point mentions people that are not involved. 2A0D:6FC2:64A1:1600:B165:E8D7:5360:7462 (talk) 23:52, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent summary, thank you EzStern (talk) 09:11, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, right-wing Israeli here (Israeli right, it's different:)
I would just like to emphasize that calling the song "genocidal" is a joke. Not only is there no mention of Gazan children or civilians in general, the lyrics are very clearly directed at Hamas. The very first line states "...rats coming out of the tunnel" i.e. the infamous Hamas terror tunnels.
פשוט לא מאמין שהמלחמה גרמה לי להקשיב לשיר הזה כ"כ הרבה פעמים... EzStern (talk) 09:22, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for providing your translation of some of the lyrics. There are a few English translations out there, some better than others, but I haven't seen anything definitive (as far as I know there has been no official release with translated lyrics). Some of the slang doesn't translate very well and phrases like "every dog gets his day" have a meaning that is opposite to the same phrase in English. I've seen some translations that seem to indicate that the song endorses writing the names of children from Gaza on the bombshells, which is clearly wrong. 2A0D:6FC2:64A1:1600:B165:E8D7:5360:7462 pointed out that "Another X on the weapon" refers to a soldier's rifle getting an X on it after killing a terrorist, but I couldn't find a source to confirm that. In the Times of Israel article, they say that Ness and Stilla "promise to 'X out' their enemies". Ultimately, we'll need to defer to the references, but I think we can cover any nuances or discrepancies in the translations through explanations in the notes section or by being clear about attribution where specific translations are contested. gobonobo + c 15:59, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
About the translation issue, I think this translation with its remarks is closer to what the authors of the song meant to say:
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/harbudarbu-harbu-darbu.html-0 GerillaBubble (talk) 16:22, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The commentary in that translation has broken English and is not phrased neutrally, suggesting a biased interpretation (e.g. "'Rats' are also a nickname for cowards, like Hamas, who were strong on women & children who they murdered and raped, unlike real soldiers."). gobonobo + c 13:33, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not biased interpretation because this exactly what the song writers meant to say.
The song ITSELF is biased if you want to look at it in that way, and the hidden meaning in the remarks say exactly what the song really mean.
About broken English, everyone is welcome to comment there, and it will be fixed as needed. GerillaBubble (talk) 14:14, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have to be careful about original research (WP:OR) with regards to what the songwriters "meant to say". Let's stick to what reliable sources can confirm. gobonobo + c 19:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The translation IS based on such a research, including interviews with the singers themselves.
Currently it's the most accurate translation that you can find around regarding what the singers "meant".
You can see one of the interviews here for example, where they confirm the issue of the "Another X on the weapon", among other things: https://www.ynet.co.il/entertainment/article/yokra13739874
It's in Hebrew, and behind a paywall, and same for many of the other interviews. so I won't bother to link it all. GerillaBubble (talk) 20:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GerillaBubble: The Ynet interview is a source we can use. Any others like that would be welcome too. The lyricstranslate.com site however is WP:USERGENERATED, so it can't be used as a reference. gobonobo + c 23:01, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lyricstranslate.com is just where I maintain the English translation.
I don't try to use this website as a source for here. What I tried to say is that I used many validated sources to create the remarks and translation there.
I still edit it there whenever I see a new validated sources or insights. GerillaBubble (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, a centrist Israeli here. I would like to add on that.
The "calling for the deaths of... as well as Western celebrities Bella Hadid, Mia Khalifa and Dua Lipa" sentence is factually wrong and needs to be changed. The phrase used here is "Every dog has it's day", meaning that every criminal will get his punishment. It's not "calling for death".
As written here in the Hebrew Wikitionary, this is the meaning of the phrase: https://he.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%9B%D7%9C_%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%91_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%92%27%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%95 Omnipresent1212 (talk) 22:28, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Harbu Darbu: Mala interpretación[edit]

En ningun momento se pide la muerte de los artistas, la cancion dice a cada perro le llegara su dia despues de nombrar a Dua Lipa y las demas, que es un dicho arabe, que significa que cada persona, obtiene lo que se merece. Aaron Mijael (talk) 03:30, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Aaron Mijael ¿Tienes fuentes fiables? Por ejemplo [1][2]. gobonobo + c 18:08, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Schwede66 talk 16:47, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(
)
"the song also begins to list out names of celebrities and figures supporting Palestine who they are threatening to kill including Bella Hadid and Dua Lipa"
"The song, performed by Ness Van Stilla, advocates for violence against Palestinians in Gaza and explicitly calls for the killing of notable figures supporting Palestine, including supermodel Bella Hadid, singer Dua Lipa, and adult film star Mia Khalifa."

Created by Gobonobo (talk). Self-nominated at 16:08, 10 December 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Harbu Darbu; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

Lengthy discussion
  • Not a review but a comment, but I have deep reservations about any of the hooks not just due to possible BLP concerns but also regarding the tone of any of the hooks, especially with the whole conflict going on. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:25, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gobonobo: Can you please propose alternative hooks? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:45, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As a song related to a contentious topic, we should of course take care to comply with policies and guidelines. I'm unclear on what the tone and possible BLP concerns are and how they disqualify these hooks (presumably per WP:DYKHOOKBLP). Drill music often glorifies violence and there is no undue focus on negative aspects of the living people mentioned. Any clarification would be appreciated. gobonobo + c 16:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't think that running hooks talking about calling for the death of Muslim artists, in reference to Hanukkah or Israel, while a major conflict that to put it mildly has proven very controversial, is a good idea. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:27, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for clarifying. I do see where you're coming from. Some might say it wasn't a good idea to write the song in the first place. But the song was written, it became very popular, reliable sources reported on it, and now we have an article for it. I think the article qualifies for DYK in other respects. As far as I know, we have no rule that says we have to censor hooks when there is a major conflict. gobonobo + c 23:27, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There isn't a rule against hooks about the Israel-Palestine conflict, but understandably such nominations and hooks get much more scrutiny compared to other nominations. In the past, hooks that were seen to be sensational or gratuitous involving the conflict had been modified or declined. The article itself isn't necessarily disqualified from DYK, but the hooks probably need to be changed. At the very least, if either hook was approved and ran on the Main Page, we would likely be getting complaints either at WP:ERRORS or at WT:DYK, which is something that ideally we'd want to avoid. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • No alternative hooks have been proposed. Given the concerns about the above hooks, the nomination is now marked for closure. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:03, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused. The initial comment was prefaced with "not a review but a comment", so I've been waiting for an actual review. I did respond to the concerns about the hooks and asked for clarification as to what policy-based rationale disqualified the hooks. The response was that someone else might hypothetically object to it and we would want to avoid that. I don't see how marking this for closure is warranted. I'd like to request that another editor review this. gobonobo + c 07:36, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Respectfully requesting a fresh review, acknowledging the above conversation. gobonobo + c 07:36, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gobonobo: To answer your question above, a full review is not necessary to fail a nomination if there are issues that would prevent it from passing. For example, if an article is ineligible due to not meeting length requirements or time-limits (i.e. within seven days of creation/5x expansion/GA promotion), a marking for closure could be done without the other DYK criteria being checked. As for the hooks themselves, they arguably not only are possibly BLP violations, more relevantly they could fall afoul of WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE, specifically: excessively sensational or gratuitous hooks should be rejected. In the past, hooks that were deemed inflammatory to religion were rejected, and there is a reasonable argument that the hooks proposed above are like that to both Jews and Muslims. As such, I would really suggest not going with either hook in this case. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Narutolovehinata5 I didn't actually pose a question there. I see that you suggested not going with either hook because in the past other hooks were rejected that dealt with religion and because, as you say, an argument could be made that they possibly might not comply with DYKHOOKSTYLE. I think it is important to recognize that a topic that is sensational/gratuitous is not the same as a neutral description of that same topic. I don't think we should be rejecting hooks based on hypothetical objections or because someone might complain at WP:ERRORS, but per your advice, I'm providing revised ALTs that don't mention religious holidays or countries. As I'm getting the impression that the "suggestion" of using different hooks is anything but, I'm respectfully requesting again that another editor be allowed to weigh in. gobonobo + c 10:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Requesting full review/second opinion. gobonobo + c 10:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Huh. Here we go. The article is new, long enough, and comprehensive. I see no copyright issues. It is not easy to gauge neutrality in something like this. Everything seems factual (though for translations from non-English language sources I had to rely on Google Translate) and from what I can see, no aspect of the subject seems to have been neglected. I will say that the proposed hooks are... heavy. At the same time, the cited source, El País, is the strongest of all the sources cited in the article in terms of its reputability. Unlike Narutolovehinata5, I see no potential for BLP concerns in them. WP:DYKHOOKBLP advises against "hooks that unduly focus on negative aspects of living persons", but there is no focus on any aspect of any living people in these hooks. The hooks do not discuss any of the three women nor anything they said or did. Therefore I must dismiss this concern. What I am concerned about is whether it counts as synthesis to associate Billboard with the lyrics, seeing as how the cited sources do not do so. Therefore, ALT1 might be the safer option. I acknowledge that these hooks have a high likelihood of raising eyebrows, but at the same time I feel they are, as far as WP:DYKINT goes, prime DYK material; and I do not see grounds on which I could fail them. Therefore I approve, with preference for ALT1. Surtsicna (talk) 22:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have to respectfully disagree that ALT1 is a safe option here. For one thing, there's a bit of an underlying context in that hook. Remember that Dua Lipa and the others are Muslims has Muslim roots, and the hook explicitly says Israeli. All of this while a conflict is going on with... complicated reactions from countries. If this absolutely has to run, I would suggest against any hook that alludes to either Israel or Palestine here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:50, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dua Lipa does not identify as Muslim. Mia Khalifa was raised Catholic and has never identified as Muslim. As the article explains, they are not named for their (perceived) religious identity but for the stance they have taken. The suggestion to avoid mentioning Israel or Palestine is simply unrealistic. Surtsicna (talk) 23:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still, the context gives me pause and it may be better safe than sorry in this case. We have had issues in the past before of hooks that merely touched on IP getting comments either on WT:DYK or WP:ERRORS, which is what I wished could be avoided here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, now is the time to scrutinize for errors. If you see any, point them out. I do not see any. Surtsicna (talk) 23:32, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Surtsicna and Gobonobo: is there any reason that ALT1 is more definite than the article, which says "was interpreted by some as a call for the deaths..." ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:55, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@AirshipJungleman29: That change was just introduced and reverted. The sources don't equivocate. (EuronewsEl País) gobonobo + c 17:20, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Surtsicna and Gobonobo: To me, these hooks fall into "excessively sensational or gratuitous" territory in the current context. Please advise on whether the nomination should be withdrawn, or whether alternative hooks can be found. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:27, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@AirshipJungleman29: Are you referring all of the hooks? Beyond the first two, two alternatives have already been provided. gobonobo + c 21:58, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, that is true, my apologies. Reviewer needed for ALTs 2 and 3. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:54, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I personally am not seeing how any of the proposed hooks are "sensational or gratuitous" in excess of other hooks DYK has approved or has run, amid true crime hooks that have run about mass murders and massacres, and a hook in the staging area about how "the name of murder-folk band Harley Poe possibly came from the name of a murdered neighbour of the frontman". I agree with Surtsicna to approve the hooks with preference for ALT 1.
In any case, if a "[r]eviewer [is] needed for ALTs 2 and 3", what does a reviewer need to do? I don't see anything in error from Surtsicna's review, aside from Narutolovehinata5 and AirshipJungleman29 disagreeing about the appropriateness of the hooks. If a reviewer is needed for ALTs 2 and 3, is the requested review to check if ALTs 2 and 3 are substantiated by the sources and appear in the article? P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 01:59, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes P-Makoto: I am not going to promote ALT0 or ALT1. ALT2 and ALT3 have not received full reviews. If the article is going to run at DYK, those hooks need review. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT0 was nominated by gobonobo and is approved by reviewers Surtsicna and P-Makoto. However, as there is not at this time consensus among the five users participating in this DYK thread, to promote this hook, Gobonobo has proposed two more hooks, ALT2 and ALT3.
The content of ALT 2 appears in the article in a clear, unambiguous way (The song goes on to call for the deaths of Western celebrities Bella Hadid, Dua Lipa, and Mia Khalifa, who expressed solidarity with the Palestinian people and criticized Israel and Billboard magazine included "Harbu Darbu" in a Hanukkah playlist, comparing it to Leonard Cohen's performances for the IDF during the 1973 Yom Kippur War). Citations are provided in a clear way at the end of the relevant sentences, and reading the sources confirms they verify the content of hook ALT 2: A hip hop song ‘Charbu Darbu’, trending on Israel’s Youtube and Spotify charts, is advocating to kill Palestinians in Gaza, and saying supermodel Bella Hadid, singer Dua Lipa and adult film star Mia Khalifa, all vocal supporters of Palestine, should be killed, The Current; Ness & Stilla, "Harbu Darbu" [line break] Echad shtime! Fifty years ago, Leonard Cohen came to Israel to sing on the front lines. Hanukkah is a story of Jews fighting back in a war. This is almost like a version of that in trap and drill form (Billboard). I approve ALT2 as a hook.
As for ALT3, the content for the song being #1 appears unambiguously in the article (The song reached #1 on Israel's Mako Hit List, which tracks plays on streaming platforms and radio.). The source for this sentence is written in Hebrew, which I don't read, so it is taken on good faith. However, the version of the page at the time of reading only describes "Harbu Darbu" as a "drill song" in the lead. In the body of the text, it is called a a trap song, typical of Israeli hip hop, with a minimalist drill beat. To someone familiar with the trap, hip hop, and drill genres this may be a distinction without a difference, but a casual reader unfamiliar with music genres, may not grasp that having a drill beat is what defines something as a drill song. If the hook calls it a drill song, the body text should also clearly call it a "drill song". This problem applies to ALT1 as well (but there is not consensus to promote ALT1 anyway among the five users participating in this DYK thread).
To summarize, I approve ALT2 : its content has been verified as appearing in the article and in the cited sources. ALT3 has not been approved, as the identification of "Harbu Darbu" as a "drill song" does not unambiguously appear in the article's body text (the non-lede body text calls it a song with a drill beat, which may be the same but is not unambiguously the same to a reader with only a casual knowledge of music genres). Pinging participating users so they know that I've reviewed ALT2 and ALT3: gobonobo, Narutolovehinata5, Surtsicna, AirshipJungleman29. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 14:54, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should the chart code and table be changed?[edit]

I dunno, I think since this is English Wikipedia we should follow the previous Country (Chart name) format instead of the current format which is similar to Hebrew Wikipedia. Also add weekly charts into the mix as well. Would like to hear your takes on this... Marcecarjordan (talk) 06:00, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Marcecarjordan: I'd support this, but don't have much experience formatting music charts. It looks like many articles use Template:Single chart, but I don't think that template supports the Israeli charts that we're using here. gobonobo + c 19:41, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

YouTube video view count update[edit]

  • What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}): Update view count for official YouTube video from "over 8 million views" to "over 12 million views"
  • Why it should be changed: Significant rise in view count in the last month since last edit (4+ million)
  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): Current Youtube video metrics on official referenced link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rk3n9V-aQs

Flight884 (talk) 00:58, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

 Done. gobonobo + c 19:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 January 2024[edit]

Change : " The song's name is a distortion of the Syrian Arabic حرب وضرب, meaning "swords and strikes". " to " The song's name is a distortion of the Syrian Arabic حرب وضرب, meaning "war and strike". " Aghiles214 (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Aghiles214: I've adjusted the phrasing to include the translations, "war strike" and "mayhem", which were confirmed by one of the sources. If you have a source that specifically uses "war and strike", please provide it. gobonobo + c 17:53, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note b about Amalek[edit]


  • What I think should be changed:
    −
    "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (1 Samuel 15:3, King James Version)
    		+
    "You shall remember what Amalek did to you on the way, when you went out of Egypt," ([[Book of Deuteronomy|Devarim]] 25:17, [[https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9989/jewish/Chapter-25.htm#v17|Complete Tanach with Rashi]])
  • Why it should be changed: Amalek is referenced multiple times in the Tanakh, and Netanyahu referenced the aforementioned passage from Devarim, not from Samuel Chapter 1. The currently provided passage is irrelevant to the Netanyahu quote. The PMO later released a statement saying that the same passage appears in a permanent exhibit at the Yad Vashem Holocaust museum, as well at a memorial in The Hague for Dutch Jews murdered in the Holocaust. “Obviously neither reference is an incitement to genocide of the German people,” the PMO said.[1]


76.65.117.71 (talk) 06:26, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Sharon, Jeremy (16 January 2024). "PM's office says it's 'preposterous' to say his invoking Amalek was a genocide call". The Times Of Israel. Retrieved 19 January 2024.
 Done. The quote has been changed to the Chabad translation, including 25:19 as well. gobonobo + c 00:32, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jan 22 rv[edit]

@user:Gobonobo, text at this rv: special:diff/1197976827 is directly supported by the song lyrics. Do we really need to ref them again an again in each sentence? TaBaZzz (talk) 18:00, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@טבעת-זרם: Sourced content was removed and replaced with wording that the sources don't back up. The addition of "was interpreted by some" goes directly against the sourcing. [3][4]. The "wait for [bombs] to rain on you like a debt," comes directly from The Forward article. Claiming that the review misinterpreted the slang is original research. gobonobo + c 20:25, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bardelas[edit]

Bardelas is a mixed-gender light infantry battalion within the Paran brigade, alongside Caracal Battalion and others. This is a reference to gender equality within the IDF and includes women combat soldiers in the rallying cry. Women are not only “attracted to male combat soldiers in uniform,” they are combat soldiers in their own right.

Bardelas Battalion 194.90.89.5 (talk) 09:58, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Calling for death of celebrities[edit]

It doesn’t. They’re is not one line that indicates that. 141.226.93.108 (talk) 17:43, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't call for the death of celebrities[edit]

it doesn't 184.89.50.34 (talk) 01:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Independent: An Israeli rap duo have reportedly called for the deaths of Dua Lipa, Bella Hadid and Mia Khalifa in a song which has shot to the top of charts in Israel. It then goes on to translate the relevant portion at the end, the part where it says All the IDF units are coming to do Harbu Darbu on their heads. ... Wait till we drop it like rain on you wh***s. All who planned, supported, executed, murdered. You’re in trouble. You hear? ... Nasrallah. Mohammed Deif. Haniyeh. Abu Baklawa. Bella Hadid. Dua Lipa. Mia Khalifa. Every dog will get what’s coming to them. nableezy - 02:01, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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